[time-nuts] pulling oscillators

Sun Mar 6 01:07:58 UTC 2011

Thanks Stan. I think I'll try it. I thought I'd seen something before,
indeed there was a flurry of injection locking on time-nuts just last
month. I simply forgot the right terminology!
The R is built into the chip in both radios. The Icom 260A has a 5.12 MHz
xtal and does have a trim cap. The Yaesu 290L has a 5.76 MHz reference,
and no trim cap. I'll try the Icom first, I think. It'll take a while...
Don

Stan Searing
> The on chip inverter is usually pretty weak and often designed to
> have a high impedance output.  When intended as a transconductance
> amp, the output mostly looks like a current source (hence the
> high impedance).  Some oscillators use a resistor outside the IC in
> series with the inverter output to help control maximum crystal
> drive level, reduce chances of overtone oscillation, or in hopes
> of improving the overall Q.
>
> If the series resistor is present, there are three places you can
> inject your signal: at the inverter output, between the resistor
> and crystal and at the inverter input.
>
> With a weak on-chip inverter, you can overdrive the inverter output
> over a large frequency range.  Phase noise could be an issue,
> but was not a problem with my application when I've used this method.
> Be careful not to exceed the voltage range of the chip.
>
> If you stay close to the crystal resonate frequency, injecting
> the pulling signal in between the series resistor and crystal
> can be similar to injecting at the inverter input.  But it's not
> a good place to inject the signal as you get further from the
> frequency the loaded crystal wants to sing at.
>
> Injecting at the input of the inverter has worked OK for me.
> The further you go off frequency, the larger signal you need.
> If you want to drive a ways off, the load capacitor and the
> crystal shunt capacitance in series with the other load capacitor
> just become a capacitive load.
>
> If the resistor is not present outside the IC, then the first
> two cases become the same.  You may be able to overdrive the
> inverter output, but have to also consider the load of the
> crystal and crystal load caps.
>
> If you stay close enough in frequency that the crystal is singing
> along with your source, than I'd guess the phase noise should be on the
> order of the un-pulled oscillator or the pulling source (whichever is
> worse).
> (And in the cases where I pulled way off [20 %], the crystal went
> pretty quiet and I didn't notice any phase noise [although I wasn't
> really looking for phase noise].)
>
> Good luck,
> Stan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Don Latham
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 11:52 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] pulling oscillators
>
> The crystal oscillators are reference oscillators in 2 meter ham radios. I
> wanted to make the least perturbation in the radio, hence pulling instead
> of
> simply introducing the correct reference. I will be using a reference of
> the
> nominal frequency the radio should have, so really should not need to pull
> more than a few ppm if that? also not woried about the phase noise,
> either.
> Will derive the driving signal from my gps 10 mhz or from one of my FEI Rb
> devices. I need the accurate frequencies, or at least I think I do,
> because
> the 2 meter radio will drive a transverter to 2.4 GHz moonbounce.
> Sorry about not knowing how far I need to pull, or the specs of what's
> there. I suspect there has been some drift since the radio was made.
> Putting in a vcxo or varactor simply puts off the problem, as then I have
> to
> monitor <that> frequency and control it. I could cobble in a little tuning
> cap, but still would be left with a pretty temp sensitive reference.
> Hope the question is clearer, and thanks to all who replied!
> Don
>
> Adrian
>> Don,
>>
>> if you have a reference oscillator of the right frequency, what's the
>> the purpose of trying to pull a CMOS oscillator to the same frequency,
>> rather than just using the reference frequency?
>> Please be more specific on whant your requirements are.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> Don Latham schrieb:
>>> Hello all:
>>> I've developed a need for pulling crystal oscillators built in to pll
>>> circuits. These are cmos, and have the common style oscillator
>>> circuit built in. The crystal is across an inverter in the chip, and
>>> there is a small cap between each end of the crystal and ground.
>>> The chips are pll's in radio transceivers, early at that.
>>> I could carefully remove the crystals and caps, simply driving the
>>> non-inverting input on the chip with the reference, but I would
>>> rather simply tack on a very small cap and "pull" the crystal
>>> oscillator with an external reference signal of the right frequency.
>>> Anyone out there tried this?
>>> Thanks
>>> Don
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
> as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> R. Bacon
> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
>
>
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
>
>
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-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com