[time-nuts] Symmetricom TimeSource 2700

[Dennis Ferguson]

Yes, you are correct.  10 microseconds comes directly from the CDMA
spec, it is the amount of time the reference at a base station is allowed
to drift when it is in holdover before it is out of spec and needs to
be removed from service.

I still don't know what they do about path delay since (as you point
out) I believe this can be measured only after a handset has registered
with the tower, and the timing receivers never register.  And the path
delay can be quite large if you live far enough away from civilization.
When I take my Verizon phone to Toronto it often registers with a
Verizon tower which must be at least 20 miles away (i.e. the width
of the lake).  If that was the distance to the only tower the timing
receiver had to listen to that would be more than 100 microseconds of
delay, and I don't see how it could correct that.

Dennis Ferguson

On 30 Nov, 2011, at 02:42 , Peter Bell wrote:

> It's been a while, but from what I remember the sync channel message
> does indeed include the system time (which is the same as GPS time
> with a UTC offset) and also the PN code offset that this cell is
> using.  This leaves the only remaining unknown as the path delay to
> the cell and the possible error in the local clock on the BTS.
> 
> The other possible source of error is that if one of the sites loses
> GPS lock, it will flywheel - this will generate a yellow alarm, but
> this is not communicated over the air interface - I suspect that the
> largest component of that stated 10uS maximum timing error is based on
> worse-case accumulated phase error.  I also suspect this is why that
> Symmetricom box is tracking multiple pilots, so it can isolate and
> discard any that appear to be significantly out.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Dennis Ferguson
> <dennis.c.ferguson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think they track both the CDMA pilot and sync channels.  The latter
>> channel sends a message which tells the phone about the cell, and
>> gives gives the phone enough information to figure out the time of day.
>> 
>> I'm pretty sure CDMA phones have to know what time it is before they
>> register with the cell.  To receive the paging channel and negotiate a
>> registration the phone has to receive and send the long code chip sequence,
>> which I think is 2^40 bits long and takes more than a month to repeat.
>> The phone has to know what time it is before it has any hope of tracking
>> that.
>> 
>> I don't know how (or if) they deal with the distance from the cell.  The
>> accuracy of the PPS signal from CDMA time receivers is usually specified
>> as no better than 10 microseconds or so, so they may just assume the cell
>> tower is close enough not to make it worse than 10 microseconds.
>> 
>> Dennis Ferguson
>> 
>> On 29 Nov, 2011, at 18:54 , Peter Bell wrote:
>>> Assuming it's just tracking the CDMA pilots, the 1PPS output is likely
>>> not aligned with UTC.  The problem is that the pilot channel is just a
>>> PN sequence with no modulating data - so when you lock to it you can
>>> know that your local clock is 19200Hz * 64 chips/bit (1.228MHz) - but
>>> that's all you know.  Even the code phase doesn't tell you anything,
>>> since there are two unknowns - the first is the distance to the cell
>>> and the second is the code phase offset on this specific pilot (each
>>> BTS has it's modulating sequence offset by an integer multiple of 64
>>> chips to reduce mutual interference) - the second piece of information
>>> you can obtain by reading one of the overhead channels, but the first
>>> is basically not available just using a receiver (your phone can do
>>> it, since it can ask transmit back to the BTS and measure the round
>>> trip timing offset).
>> 
>> 
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