[time-nuts] Long life products, obsolete components, and code 4 parts. RE: HP Cesium Standards in the International Atomic Time Scale, the legend of Felix Lazarus, and the "top cover

[Adrian Godwin]

Time-standard based stories are probably on-topic, but for those wanting a
wider range of subjects without posting to the list,
http://hpmemoryproject.org/ has good stuff. And, of course, the
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/journal.html

Tek produced a book :
https://www.radiomuseum.org/lf/b/winning-with-people-the-first-40-years-of-tektronix/


On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:40 PM paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:

> hello to the group.
> I really am enjoying the stories and in reality history about a great
> company that I am very proud to actually own a lot of its technology.
> Though purchased for $/lbs at hamfests and such. All needing TLC and all of
> it teaching me more then a few lessons on how to do things.
> So though the stories center around real world trade offs. The fact is the
> guts were still very good. Says the guy with home brew crystal references.
> Chuckle.
>
> My one and only story was circa 1994-98 and video. Was at HP to see demos
> of their video server. Always thought it would be a great place to work.
> But going through the sea of cubes and seeing what it would actually be
> like settled that forever.
> Keep up the stories please.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:37 AM Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems) <
> hugh.rice at hp.com> wrote:
>
> > I’ll add a bit to Rick’s story, from my manufacturing engineering
> > perspective.
> > I was hired into PFS manufacturing engineering in 1984, specifically to
> > work with Roberto (Robert) Montesi on the 5061B product.   Roberto was
> the
> > production engineer on the 5061A, and acting “project manager” of our
> > little two man development team.  We were funded by manufacturing, as
> Rick
> > noted, but sat in the R&D lab for about 18 months as we redesigned
> > (updated) a bunch of stuff on the 5061A.
> >
> > As I mentioned a few weeks ago, Roberto was a very good engineer
> (compared
> > to me at least), and a great mentor.  One story he told me about himself
> > that I recall:  He was originally from Nicaragua, and somehow wound up in
> > the US Army during Vietnam, spending some time in combat there as a GI.
> >  At one point the Army wanted to send him to officers candidate school,
> > since he scored so well on all the tests.   He was a smart guy, with
> > perfect English.   Well into the process, they finally realized that he
> > wasn’t a US citizen, and thus couldn’t be an officer.    He seemed to
> make
> > it through the whole Vietnam experience with minimal PTSD (as far as I
> > could tell), and would tell an interesting (and likely cynical) war story
> > now an then.   Like Rick said, Roberto kept his head down, and we sat in
> a
> > shared work area and did our 5061B thing, surrounded by the team working
> on
> > the new 5350,51,52 microwave counters, led by their very energetic
> project
> > manager Bob Renner.   The real R&D guys treated us well, even though we
> > were 2nd class production guys.   (Not too many years before this, R&D
> > engineers and production engineers were not on the same pay scale, and
> > really were second class in HP eyes.   The feeling of not being a “full”
> > engineer still lingered in 1984.)
> >
> > As Rick said, PFS products like the cesium standards were cash cow
> > products, and didn’t have a R&D staff at all.   All the “upgrades” were
> > funded by manufacturing, to keep this product line viable.    The whole
> > development effort was about extending the production life of the 5061A.
> >  We were selling about 15/month, with an average price of about $35K.
> The
> > gross margins were very high (sales price – material costs), and the
> > product line delivered 4 or 5 million in gross profits to the division a
> > year.    It was well worth having a couple of manufacturing engineers
> > freshen things up to keep this cow healthy.    And Roberto was still the
> > production engineer for the 5061A during this time, so kinda doing double
> > duty.
> >
> > My job on the 5061B was to redesign the clock display and the battery
> > charger.  These were both part of the popular time-keeping option 003,
> > which was primarily the 1pps output circuit.  The battery backup was to
> > prevent the 1PPS signal from losing syc. If there was a power
> > interruption.   I recall the battery charger had a huge mica capacitor
> that
> > couldn’t be purchased any more, and a crazy design with obscure TTL
> > counters.   The clock display was even crazier.  Not nixie tubes,  but
> two
> > or three circular PC boards driving LED displays, and again obscure ICs
> > that were hard to procure.   Hard to build, and really expensive.   (More
> > on these in another story on another day.)
> >
> > Roberto redesigned the frequency divider module (5MHz in; 10MHz, 1MHz,
> > 100kHz out – another odd design rooted in 5060 history), the A3 power
> > regulator board, and some stuff internal to one (both?) of the high
> voltage
> > power supplies, used for the Ion Pump and Electron Multiplier.   Maybe
> some
> > other things too.  For all of these, obsolete components was the driving
> > force.
> >
> > By 1984 standards, there were some really crazy circuits still in the
> > instrument (still another story for another day), but as Rick said, in
> low
> > volume manufacturing, if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.  In the case of
> the
> > 5061, don’t even think about touching it.
> >
> > Rick’s memory of the management dynamics are similar to mine.   A 5061A
> to
> > 5061B “upgrade”, particularly if funded by manufacturing, was easy to get
> > approved.    Entire new developments were hard to justify.    The
> division
> > was under a lot of financial stress in the 1980s.  Peace was breaking out
> > as the cold war was winding down, and DOD spending, which drove a lot of
> > instrumentation sales, was shrinking.     Digital oscilloscopes and
> > synthesized frequency generators were obsoleting the need for frequency
> > counters, the majority of the divisions revenue.    PFS was profitable,
> but
> > zero growth.   We also build laser interferometers, which did amazing
> high
> > precision displacement measurements, but they weren’t growing either.
> >  While profitable, the division revenue was shrinking maybe 10% per year.
> >   In the 8 years I was there, headcount went from about 1500 to 500
> > people.   Management was desperate to fund new products that would lead
> to
> > growth.  I recall the general manager at the time (Jim Horner), having a
> > metric for every new development on how much growth it would contribute
> to
> > the division.  It was never enough.   Redesigning the 5061A yielded zero
> > growth (the demand for cesium standards was pretty flat) and thus not a
> > priority.    A very light touch by manufacturing to keep it viable was
> > appropriate.
> >
> > This email chain has unleashed a flood of memories from 30 years ago.
> >  Hopefully a few of you find this walk down memory lane interesting.
>  I
> > have a few more stories in the que if any of you are still interested.
> >
> > Hugh Rice
> >
> >
> > From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at lists.febo.com> On Behalf Of Richard
> > (Rick) Karlquist
> > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:35 AM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> > time-nuts at lists.febo.com>; Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
> > Cc: magnus at rubidium.se
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Long life products, obsolete components, and
> code
> > 4 parts. RE: HP Cesium Standards in the International Atomic Time Scale,
> > the legend of Felix Lazarus, and the "top cover
> >
> > The HP way (AFAIK) was as follows:
> >
> > They were making the 5061A and the
> > default philosophy was don't fix it
> > if it ain't broke. However, products
> > reach a tipping point. In the case
> > of the 5061A, the obsolescence of the
> > Nixie tube was the straw that broke
> > the camel's back. But there were a
> > bunch of other issues that had also
> > accumulated a critical mass.
> >
> > I was hired into HP in 1979 to work in the
> > Precision Frequency Sources R&D section
> > to work on the 10816 rubidium. That
> > project was eventually cancelled by a "new sheriff
> > in town" event upstairs, and took the
> > section with it. So they had to somehow
> > boot leg the 61B without an R&D section.
> >
> > A production engineer
> > named Robert (I forgot his last name) was
> > the project manager. He basically tried
> > to keep his head down and not attract a
> > lot of attention. I am thinking that all
> > the money came out of the production engineering
> > budget.
> >
> > Another HP way thing is that we would
> > go from A to B in order to get the clock
> > running on the end of support life. Upper
> > management would be not be suspicious of an
> > A to B, as opposed to a new product number,
> > which would be a red flag. The cesium line was
> > to be run as a cash cow, period. Len pulled a
> > rabbit out of the hat when he got permission for
> > the 5071A.
> >
> > So the 61B was a bridge product to keep the
> > plane flying until the 71A came out. It
> > basically contained no gratuitous improvements,
> > only stuff that had to be fixed.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > On 12/30/2018 5:23 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
> > > Dear Hugh,
> > >
> > > Many thanks for another nice post from the good old times.
> > > Was a nice morning reading.
> > >
> > > I didn't know that the 5061B was rebuilt with removing odd parts in
> > > mind, but it makes sense. Interesting system with Code 1 to Code 4.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Magnus
> > >
> > > On 12/29/18 5:36 AM, Rice, Hugh (IPH Writing Systems) wrote:
> > >> My “Test and Measurement” days with HP, from 1984 to 1992, were all in
> > manufacturing (a.k.a. production) engineering. A major task was dealing
> > with the endless list of obsoleted components, since many of our products
> > had designs dating back 10 or 20 years, into the wild west early days of
> > semiconductors and integrated circuits.
> > >>
> > >> In addition to Frequency and Time products (which we called “PFS” –
> > Precision Frequency Sources), HP’s Santa Clara Division (SCD) also had
> the
> > frequency counter product line. I managed the production engineering team
> > for counters from 1988 to 1992; the job that I had to pass the R&D
> > engineering new hire interview to qualify for. This technology was
> invented
> > in the 1950s and even with many new models and upgrades, we still were
> > shipping “classics” products from the early 1970s in low volume in about
> > 1990. The 5340 microwave counter and 5328 universal counters come to
> mind.
> > We kept raising the prices, because we had newer, better, cheaper
> counters
> > for sale. But the old ones kept selling because they were designed into
> > some DOD test system, and the hassle of designing in a new instrument was
> > more expensive than buying an new (but obsolete) counter for our
> customers.
> > The parade of obsolete components seemed to never end on these old
> units. I
> > recall talking to the marketing manager, Murli Thurmali (sp?) about
> > obsoleting some of these products, and he would wisely respond: “Tell me
> > how you are going to replace the million dollars of lost revenue.” The
> > manufacturing manager, Chuck Taubman, would likewise say: “Our margins
> are
> > well over 50% on these products, that money pays overhead, which is our
> > salaries. Show me $500K in cost savings before we obsolete them.” Turns
> out
> > that even though they were a hassle, it was relatively easy money, so we
> > kept building and selling them.
> > >>
> > >> The PFS products were similar in this regard. The product line had
> > largely been developed in the 1960s and 1970s, volumes were low, but
> prices
> > and margins were high. Yeah, they took some effort to keep in production,
> > but the development was done, and it was good money. HP was a business
> > after all, and if we didn’t make money, we didn’t have jobs. The was a
> > great education for me, brand new to management, learning that HP may be
> a
> > cool technology company, but we only had jobs as long as the business was
> > profitable, and preferably growing. Nothing was guaranteed.
> > >>
> > >> HP instituted a system of “Codes” for parts, to measure how well we
> > were designing our products for long production lives and low materials
> > management overhead costs. Code 1 was best. Industry standard parts
> > available from many sources cheaply. Code 2 were OK to use. Code 3 was
> > something really special, and needed a good reason to include. Code 4
> > brought the scorn of procurement engineers, and brought significant
> > management review.
> > >>
> > >> The easy way out for production engineering to deal with obsoleted
> > component was a life time buy. The Materials group hated this, because
> they
> > had hundreds of other parts already on life time buys. What if they get
> > lost or damaged, or the last batch was defective, or the product lasted
> > longer than we expected? A product like the 5061A, at ~200 build per
> year,
> > was a typical challenge. 10 more years of life? Buy 2400 parts? Perhaps
> > double it to 5000 parts. The response from component buyers was easy to
> > predict: “But VendorX wants $2.31 for this ancient transistor. We’re not
> > tying up $10K in one part. We have dozens of parts like this, we can’t
> > afford all this inventory.” So we would try harder. Maybe a 2N222A, or a
> > 2N3904 will work. Procurements loves these parts. We’d try them out, and
> > hope we didn’t miss something in the qualification. New parts never had
> the
> > same specs at the old parts, and the original designer was long gone, and
> > design intent documentation non-existent. I bet half the time the old
> > transistor just happened to be on the engineers bench back in 1969,
> worked
> > fine, and he just used it. The Code 1,2,3,4 process was designed to
> > discourage this kind of design thinking.
> > >>
> > >> When we upgraded the 5061A Cesium Standard to the 5061B in 1984-85,
> the
> > primary objective was to eliminate all the code 3 and code 4 parts.
> > Designing out all the old stuff wound up being a fantastic education in
> > component technologies, reading and interpreting data sheets, dealing
> with
> > vendors, worrying about inventory control and so on. Our attitude was
> > trying to make a product we could ship indefinitely, even though it was
> > already over 20 years old. We had a history of selling PFS instruments
> for
> > decades, and we were preparing for decades more.
> > >>
> > >> Bob kb8tq wrote: “In the case of the 5071, I’d bet a pretty good brand
> > of six pack that nobody on the planet would have guessed 20 years ago
> that
> > it still would be in production today.”
> > >>
> > >> Well, I can’t prove that Bob would lose this bet (Maybe Rick K could),
> > and I didn’t work on the 5071. But for PFS products, in production
> > engineering, we had been building and selling these instruments for
> > decades, with no end in sight. Volumes were low, so they didn’t get
> > redesigned very often. I’ll bet the same six pack that the 5071 team felt
> > it would be a VERY long time before HP designed a replacement for the
> 5071.
> > >>
> > >> Rick – any memories you can share?
> > >>
> > >> Happy New Year,
> > >>
> > >> Hugh Rice
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at lists.febo.com<mailto:
> > time-nuts-bounces at lists.febo.com>> On Behalf Of Bob kb8tq
> > >> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2018 9:35 AM
> > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> > time-nuts at lists.febo.com<mailto:time-nuts at lists.febo.com>>
> > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP Cesium Standards in the International
> > Atomic Time Scale, the legend of Felix Lazarus, and the "top cover
> > >>
> > >> Hi
> > >>
> > >> Indeed back at Motorola, a lot of that stuff got transferred into the
> > engineering stock room
> > >> after a while. Just how that worked out budget wise …. one wonders ….
> > >>
> > >> Bob
> > >>
> > >>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 11:53 AM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net<mailto:
> > jimlux at earthlink.net<mailto:jimlux at earthlink.net%
> > 3cmailto:jimlux at earthlink.net>>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> On 12/24/18 5:36 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> > >>>> Hi
> > >>>> The gotcha is - if you have a very unique part in a device and it
> > goes away, how
> > >>>> many years of stock do you buy on the “last chance” order?
> > >>>> In the case of the 5071, I’d bet a pretty good brand of six pack
> that
> > nobody on the
> > >>>> planet would have guessed 20 years ago that it still would be in
> > production today.
> > >>>
> > >>> EOL buys for a product line are plausible. But if you're building
> > one-off (or limited quantity)- maybe not. At work (JPL) there's a whole
> > aspect to sparing that's kind of subtle - you get funded per mission, and
> > it has a cost cap at the proposal stage.
> > >>>
> > >>> Buying extra parts "just because" cuts into your budget - what do you
> > give up because you bought extra parts, maybe some engineering hours? or
> > test time? - it's easy to say "oh what's a few parts here and there", but
> > pretty soon, it's getting to be a big part of your budget.
> > >>>
> > >>> So you buy enough parts to build what you're going to launch, plus
> > enough maybe for an EM or breadboard, and then a few spares in case
> there's
> > some assembly errors, or you need to scrap a board. If the problem
> happens
> > early enough, you've got time to burn some reserves and order more.
> > >>>
> > >>> The other problem in the space business is that there is a lot of
> > desire to re-use known good designs. That part may have been a long way
> > from EOL when it was first used, but now, 5-10 years later, maybe it's
> EOL,
> > and there's no obvious "drop in" replacement. Do you redesign, or do you
> > buy the last remaining stock and hope for the best?
> > >>>
> > >>> This tends to be a cascading issue - mission A designs and uses part
> > X, and has spares. Smaller Mission B uses the spares to build their
> widget
> > using the Mission A design. They buy a few spares too. Smaller Mission C
> > does the same thing. Now we're 10 years in, in some cases still using
> spare
> > parts bought by original Mission A.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am still using spare connectors and such from Cassini (launched in
> > 1997) in things like breadboards at work.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> On Dec 24, 2018, at 1:59 AM, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net
> > <mailto:hmurray at megapathdsl.net<mailto:hmurray at megapathdsl.net%
> > 3cmailto:hmurray at megapathdsl.net>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> jimlux at earthlink.net<mailto:jimlux at earthlink.net<mailto:
> > jimlux at earthlink.net%3cmailto:jimlux at earthlink.net>> said:
> > >>>>>> and the "market lifetime" of parts today is much shorter. There
> are
> > lots of
> > >>>>>> parts from Hittite that were essentially "run on this line only",
> > and when
> > >>>>>> they moved geometries, they're never to be seen again.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Most vendors make a lot of noise before they pull the plug on a
> > part. The
> > >>>>> usual deal is that they fill all orders placed by a specified date
> -
> > lifetime
> > >>>>> buy. Distributors typically send a note to anybody who has
> purchased
> > them, or
> > >>>>> maybe only purchased significant quantities.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If a part isn't expensive, you can afford to buy extras beyond what
> > you expect
> > >>>>> to need to cover some what-ifs. That probably doesn't cover
> > something like
> > >>>>> the 5071 being in production for 30 years. But it could give you a
> > few years
> > >>>>> warning - maybe enough time to find a substitute and/or redesign
> > that section.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
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