[time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 175, Issue 25

Tue Feb 19 03:30:50 UTC 2019

 Re: NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder

NIST has been doing the Time and Frequency Seminar for a few decades now.
Typically it is a mix of lectures and demos including some tours.  They
bring in a number of speakers including current staff and some guest
speakers.  John Vig is a frequent speaker.  He is a former IEEE
International President and author of the industry standard tutorial on
resonators and oscillators.  Neil Ashby is a former CU Boulder Physics
Department Head and an expert on relativity.  Other staff members fill out
most of the talks.

NIST T&F dept gets less than half of its salary funds from appropriations.
The T&F Seminar is also a little bit of a fundraiser to help them make ends
meet.  Most of the staff are contractors because the government slots are
hard to come by.

If you want to spend a week fully immersed in the topics and networking
with people then it is a good time.

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 12:00 PM <time-nuts-request at lists.febo.com> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder,
>       CO (jimlux)
>    2. Re: NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder,
>       CO (Dave Daniel)
>    3. Re: NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder,
>       CO (Magnus Danielson)
>    4. Re: Correcting measured PPS values with receiver sawtooth
>       correction values (Achim Gratz)
>    5. Correcting measured PPS values with receiver sawtooth
>       correction values (Mark Sims)
>    6. Re: Correcting measured PPS values with receiver sawtooth
>       correction values (Bob kb8tq)
>    7. Re: Correcting measured PPS values with receiver sawtooth
>       correction values (Bob kb8tq)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 09:06:24 -0800
> From: jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
> To: time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June
>         in Boulder, CO
> Message-ID: <59beab20-774f-263c-4784-5db449b4aca9 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 2/15/19 11:06 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> >>>
> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
> >>
> >> Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day
> professional conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in
> Denver flights and Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held
> and who's speaking and how long it lasts, it starts to look like something
> between a bargain and a worthy bucket list item. NIST takes T&F seriously;
> this is not some sort of cheap corporate or product marketing show.
>
> Hotels in Boulder aren't that expensive, compared to other places. Govt
> per diem is $159/lodging, Meals & Incidentals $66. The implication is
> that you'll find plenty of places where hotel is <=$159/night (Compare
> Boston for IMS at $273  + $71 and let's not even get started on Silicon
> Valley hotel costs)
>
>   Denver is a big hub airport so you can get there non-stop from lots of
> places.
>
> Particularly if you're going to it as part of "work", the cost is quite
> reasonable in the context of your salary - which is how conference
> organizers look at it.  When I was on the organizing committee for a
> conference last year, we struggled with the whole "what should it cost"
> thing. Obviously, you'd like it as cheap as possible, but there are
> significant costs associated with putting on a conference.
>
> Since NIST is US Government, there's probably GSA rules about how much
> they have to charge for the use of the resources.
>
>
> >
> > Look over the agenda and note both the wide range of topics covered and
> the personnel doing so. The sessions tend to be very high quality. A
> portion of attendees are the kind sent by their companies to "learn about
> time & frequency" this week, so as a practicing time nut you are well above
> that. On the other hand, NIST keeps the conference current and practical
> and detailed so even the most seasoned time nut will learn a great deal.
> You may also meet lifelong contacts. I have attended and highly recommend
> it.
> >
> > If it's just registration price that keeps an energetic curious time nut
> from attending let me know. In years past I've recommended NIST allow a
> limited time nut discount and that's worked. Let me know off-list if this
> is something you'd like to be considered for.
> >
> > /tvb
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 14:14:56 -0500
> From: Dave Daniel <kc0wjn at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>         <time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June
>         in Boulder, CO
> Message-ID: <96650A17-5279-4A8A-8DD9-A66621D31F6C at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> If you are interested in checking out Boulder while you are there, two
> hotels to look at are the Boulderado at 13th and Spruce, and the Broker
> Inn, which is now apparently owned by Rodeway, on 30th St.
>
> Staying at the Boulderado affords close access to the Pearl St. Mall, an
> old open-air mall (not like the new ones springing up everywhere) with lots
> of restaurants with outdoor seating, other strange shops and various
> performers (if you do go there and see a guy named Bongo tying balloons for
> children, please tell him Dave Daniel said ?hi?; I believe he was a
> physicist in a former life)
>
> I?ve stayed in both hotels, many times (StorageTek used to put employees
> up in the Broker).
>
> I have no idea what the rates are these days, but one can look them up
> online. They are probably more expensive than your run-of-the-mill Holiday
> Inn, but if the difference is not that great, it would be worth staying at
> one of them.
>
> There is also the historic Stanley hotel in Estes Park of ?The Shining?
> fame (built by the famous Stanley brothers). Estes Park is a bit of a drive
> from Boulder (but not too bad) and Estes Park is a stone?s throw from Rocky
> Mountain National Park, another cool place to visit if one is considering
> things in addition to the NIST conference. When StorageTek used to send me
> to Colorado for business I used to always tack on a weekend at my expense
> to visit these sorts of places.
>
> If I still lived there, I?d attend the conference in a heartbeat.
>
> DaveD
>
> Sent from a small flat thingy
>
> > On Feb 16, 2019, at 12:06, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > On 2/15/19 11:06 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> >>>>
> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
> >>>
> >>> Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?
> >> Hi Bill,
> >> Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day
> professional conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in
> Denver flights and Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held
> and who's speaking and how long it lasts, it starts to look like something
> between a bargain and a worthy bucket list item. NIST takes T&F seriously;
> this is not some sort of cheap corporate or product marketing show.
> >
> > Hotels in Boulder aren't that expensive, compared to other places. Govt
> per diem is $159/lodging, Meals & Incidentals $66. The implication is that
> you'll find plenty of places where hotel is <=$159/night (Compare Boston
> for IMS at $273  + $71 and let's not even get started on Silicon Valley
> hotel costs)
> >
> > Denver is a big hub airport so you can get there non-stop from lots of
> places.
> >
> > Particularly if you're going to it as part of "work", the cost is quite
> reasonable in the context of your salary - which is how conference
> organizers look at it.  When I was on the organizing committee for a
> conference last year, we struggled with the whole "what should it cost"
> thing. Obviously, you'd like it as cheap as possible, but there are
> significant costs associated with putting on a conference.
> >
> > Since NIST is US Government, there's probably GSA rules about how much
> they have to charge for the use of the resources.
> >
> >
> >> Look over the agenda and note both the wide range of topics covered and
> the personnel doing so. The sessions tend to be very high quality. A
> portion of attendees are the kind sent by their companies to "learn about
> time & frequency" this week, so as a practicing time nut you are well above
> that. On the other hand, NIST keeps the conference current and practical
> and detailed so even the most seasoned time nut will learn a great deal.
> You may also meet lifelong contacts. I have attended and highly recommend
> it.
> >> If it's just registration price that keeps an energetic curious time
> nut from attending let me know. In years past I've recommended NIST allow a
> limited time nut discount and that's worked. Let me know off-list if this
> is something you'd like to be considered for.
> >> /tvb
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 21:28:21 +0100
> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.se>
> To: time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June
>         in Boulder, CO
> Message-ID: <f5e12053-6472-b3ae-651f-29bd3ec913bc at rubidium.se>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi,
>
> On 2019-02-16 18:06, jimlux wrote:
> > On 2/15/19 11:06 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> >>>>
> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?
> >>
> >> Hi Bill,
> >>
> >> Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day
> >> professional conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to
> >> factor in Denver flights and Boulder hotels. But when you consider
> >> where it's held and who's speaking and how long it lasts, it starts
> >> to look like something between a bargain and a worthy bucket list
> >> item. NIST takes T&F seriously; this is not some sort of cheap
> >> corporate or product marketing show.
> >
> > Hotels in Boulder aren't that expensive, compared to other places.
> > Govt per diem is $159/lodging, Meals & Incidentals $66. The
> > implication is that you'll find plenty of places where hotel is
> > <=$159/night (Compare Boston for IMS at $273? + $71 and let's not even
> > get started on Silicon Valley hotel costs)
> >
> > ?Denver is a big hub airport so you can get there non-stop from lots
> > of places.
> >
> > Particularly if you're going to it as part of "work", the cost is
> > quite reasonable in the context of your salary - which is how
> > conference organizers look at it.? When I was on the organizing
> > committee for a conference last year, we struggled with the whole
> > "what should it cost" thing. Obviously, you'd like it as cheap as
> > possible, but there are significant costs associated with putting on a
> > conference.
> >
> > Since NIST is US Government, there's probably GSA rules about how much
> > they have to charge for the use of the resources.
>
> I took the Green Ride Boulder shuttle service to the airport last time I
> was there in January. That is also a way to save money compared to
> renting car.
>
> I was staying at Best Western Boulder, which is from walking distance
> from NIST office.
>
> I really enjoyed the NIST Time and Frequency Seminar, and it helped me
> with connections to this day with the serious and good folks at NIST T&F
> and related.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 21:59:13 +0100
> From: Achim Gratz <Stromeko at nexgo.de>
> To: time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Correcting measured PPS values with receiver
>         sawtooth correction values
> Message-ID: <87bm3bv49q.fsf at Rainer.invalid>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Mark Sims writes:
> > For all the receivers that I have tested there is only one combination
> > that jumps out as being the correct one.  However, for the new Ublox
> > F9P, there are two combinations that produce virtually identical
> > measurements and statistics (add current sawtooth or subtract previous
> > sawtooth).  Any ideas on how to determine which combination is the
> > "correct" one?
>
> I don't think that uBlox changed the defaults over their previous
> generation, so whatever worked for the M8 series should be applicable
> here.  If you're using the UBX-TIM-TP message data, this always applies
> to the TIMEPULSE0 output following the message.  The message and the
> measurement rate as well as the PPS frequency need to match up for this
> to work as expected.
>
> Now, if you want to check, I think you need to wait for a clear
> wraparound to appear in the sawtooth correction, which should coincide
> with a cycle slip on the next PPS pulse (not the previous one).
>
>
> Regards,
> Achim.
> --
> +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
>
> Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
> http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 00:49:58 +0000
> From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> To: "time-nuts at lists.febo.com" <time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] Correcting measured PPS values with receiver
>         sawtooth correction values
> Message-ID:
>         <
> BN7PR07MB529743026B2B610315AEFBB8CE620 at BN7PR07MB5297.namprd07.prod.outlook.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> The F9 has a totally new internal architecture / processor, so it's best
> to make no assumptions about how it works compared to older models.
>
> For the LEA-6T the correction strategy is clearly "add  previous sawtooth
> value".  That does not work for the F9P.
>
> The two candidates for the F9P are "add current sawtooth" or "subtract
> previous sawtooth".  I had been favoring "subtract previous" but some more
> detailed analysis seems to favor "add current".  The difference between the
> results of the  two strategies is rather subtle and it is very hard to
> determine which is the correct one.
>
> ----------------
>
> > I don't think that uBlox changed the defaults over their previous
> generation, so whatever worked for the M8 series should be applicable
> here.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 20:52:26 -0500
> From: Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>         <time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Correcting measured PPS values with receiver
>         sawtooth correction values
> Message-ID: <56A41035-ED76-4A4F-8D70-536379BE45C7 at n1k.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Hi
>
> The gotcha is that the jitter on the base pps output is high enough in
> this case that doing a reasonable
> check (roll over ? ) is not as simple as it should be. Best guess is that
> uBlox has a bug in their GPS
> side of things. Pretty much par for the course on something this new.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 16, 2019, at 3:59 PM, Achim Gratz <Stromeko at nexgo.de> wrote:
> >
> > Mark Sims writes:
> >> For all the receivers that I have tested there is only one combination
> >> that jumps out as being the correct one.  However, for the new Ublox
> >> F9P, there are two combinations that produce virtually identical
> >> measurements and statistics (add current sawtooth or subtract previous
> >> sawtooth).  Any ideas on how to determine which combination is the
> >> "correct" one?
> >
> > I don't think that uBlox changed the defaults over their previous
> > generation, so whatever worked for the M8 series should be applicable
> > here.  If you're using the UBX-TIM-TP message data, this always applies
> > to the TIMEPULSE0 output following the message.  The message and the
> > measurement rate as well as the PPS frequency need to match up for this
> > to work as expected.
> >
> > Now, if you want to check, I think you need to wait for a clear
> > wraparound to appear in the sawtooth correction, which should coincide
> > with a cycle slip on the next PPS pulse (not the previous one).
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Achim.
> > --
> > +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
> >
> > Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
> > http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 08:27:09 -0500
> From: Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>         <time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Correcting measured PPS values with receiver
>         sawtooth correction values
> Message-ID: <0EB4DE68-8148-403B-9D58-BEB88C0AB04F at n1k.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Hi
>
> One *could* suggest that the manual would be a great source of information
> for this sort of thing.
> The problem there is that pretty much the whole manual talks about the M8
> as the target device
> once you get into the fine print. The big points have been translated over
> to the F9P. The fine details
> are still cut and paste from the M8. Exactly where the boundary lies
> between what has been
> corrected and what has not been corrected is very unclear ?..
>
> Thus the drill seems to be verify a lot and trust very little ?..
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 16, 2019, at 7:49 PM, Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The F9 has a totally new internal architecture / processor, so it's best
> to make no assumptions about how it works compared to older models.
> >
> > For the LEA-6T the correction strategy is clearly "add  previous
> sawtooth value".  That does not work for the F9P.
> >
> > The two candidates for the F9P are "add current sawtooth" or "subtract
> previous sawtooth".  I had been favoring "subtract previous" but some more
> detailed analysis seems to favor "add current".  The difference between the
> results of the  two strategies is rather subtle and it is very hard to
> determine which is the correct one.
> >
> > ----------------
> >
> >> I don't think that uBlox changed the defaults over their previous
> > generation, so whatever worked for the M8 series should be applicable
> > here.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 175, Issue 25
> ******************************************
>