[time-nuts] Mentorship needed in learning about Allan Deviation and variation.

Tue Oct 27 11:51:39 UTC 2020

Joe & Gisela Noci <jgnoci at gmail.com>
[image: Attachments]1:33 PM (12 minutes ago)
to Discussion
Hello Tom.
Well, you just opened another can of worms for me...
My GPSDO has many controls, one being that I can place it in DAC hold with
everything else still running - I can then adjust the DAC voltage manually
for 'zero' drift on the TIC output if desired.

See the Front panel screen - *Hold Mode on GPSDOa.jpg - * attached.
So I let the unit stabilize for some hours again, and enable HOLD mode and
then recorded the TIC output.
I record lots of other info as well - Oven temp, and many diagnostic data
elements as well.
I did this recording during a period where I know the ambient remains
reasonably stable for a while...(not long enough it would seem!)..

The plot *Temp_vs_TIC.jpg* shows ( a noisy..) TIC plot versus the oven temp
control - you can see how the ambient was quite stable for around 5000
seconds, and then became warmer ( top plot)
and how the Phase delta was likewise 'stable' during the 5000 seconds, and
then drifts with the increase on ambient ( bottom plot).

The plot *Mod Allan Dev* increasing temp.gif shows the turnaround
coinciding with the rising temp.
The plot *Phase Delta over time* - increasing temp.png shows the increase
in phase shift with temp as well..
So it all ties up, but..
The Adev plot is very poor ( in my eyes anyway..) sort of 4E-12... and
getting worse - but how much of that is because of the fact that the
OCXO ( Free running now) is being affected by ambient post the 5000 seconds
mark? In other words, if the ambient did not change, ie, remained close to
the first 5000 seconds, would Adev improve, all things being equal?
And if so I suppose the only way to do this sort of test is in a temp
controlled environment.

I must admit that I am now worried that this OCXO is in fact not well...I
see so many Adev sample plots of 'good' crystal oscillators giving Adev's
in the 1E-12 or better , within the first 2000 seconds...Or am I just
mis-interpreting reality still..

 Thanks again to all!
regards

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Tom Van Baak <tvb at leapsecond.com> wrote:

> Joe,
>
>  > I assume 'holdover' to be when the OCXO EFC voltage is just held fixed?
>
> Holdover is when there is no GPS reception and your GPSDO runs blind.
> EFC may or may not be fixed depending on how clever the s/w tries to be.
> But the main thing with holdover is that there is no GPS/1PPS present
> and so no TIC readings either.
>
> The "discipline-disable" mode is when GPS/1PPS is still valid and the
> TIC is still giving you valid readings. The only thing you don't do is
> change the EFC. The net result is that your GPSDO is measuring your OCXO
> without adjusting your OCXO. Make sense? Try it out. Add a h/w switch or
> comment out the line of code where you update the DAC. Watch your TIC
> readings start to drift. And plot with TimeLab.
>
> The TBolt user manual is a good read. [1]
>
> /tvb
>
> [1] http://leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/manual.htm
>
>
> On 10/26/2020 11:19 PM, Joe & Gisela Noci wrote:
> > Bob and Tom,
> > Thanks again for your time on this.  I understand a lot better, and have
> > just one issue I would like to 'harp' on a little, if you would allow..
> > In the simplistic example of a freq counter measuring its own reference,
> It
> > it easy to grasp and understand the incestous nature of the measurement.
> >
> > I am having difficulty extending that concept to what I have though.  For
> > the purpose of understanding this concept, lets ignore jitter, and all
> > other 2nd order effects for now.
> >
> >    My OCXO is phase locked to a GPS 1PPS . The same GPS 1PPS is 'locked'
> to
> > a very accurate , very stable  (Cesium?) reference within the SAT
> > constellation.
> > I would say that if I use the GPS 1PPS ( which is the same as the Cesium
> > reference, in my example..) as my reference, then when I measure the
> phase
> > delta between the OCXO and that 1PPS
> > I am in fact measuring the phase delta between the OXCO and the accurate
> > Cesium reference.
> > I realise I am in fact measuring how well the OCXO is phase locked to the
> > Reference ( 1PPS , derived from the Cesium reference..) , but that should
> > still show what the frequency and phase offset is
> > between the OCXO and the Reference.
> > I am having difficulty seeing that this is in fact not independent - the
> > underlying raw reference for the measurement is the Cesium reference and
> I
> > can't get better than that.
> > Substituting a separate, equally good Cesium reference from which I
> derive
> > a 1PPS, is surely no different?
> >
> > To simplify my confusion, I have attached a PDF block diagram - this
> shows
> > a 'perfect' 10MHz reference oscillator - perfect in accuracy, drift,
> phase
> > errors, etc - just perfect.
> > It is the reference for a PLL with the OCXO being controlled. The perfect
> > osc is divided down to present a 1PPS to the TIC. The OCXO is divided
> down
> > to present a 1MHz signal to the TIC.
> > The resultant phase delta is logged and used to plot Adev - basically
> what
> > I described above, but a perfect Osc instead of the GPS.
> > This surely is comparing the OCXO phase to the perfect osc phase,
> > regardless of what is controlling or steering the OCXO?
> >
> >
> > Tom, I am not sure what you mean by -
> >
> > *The Trimble Thunderbolt (aka TBolt) GPSDO has this
> > disable-discipliningfeature. Note it's not "holdover"; that's something
> > else entirely.  *
> >
> > I assume 'holdover' to be when the OCXO EFC voltage is just held fixed?
> > If so, I do not understand how disciplining can be disabled without the
> EFC
> > voltage just being held to a fixed value?
> > Can you explain the difference between 'disciplining-disabled' and
> > 'holdover' please?
> >
> > Chaps, thank you for indulging me on this - the basic concepts are the
> > formative grounding for beginning to understand this subject even a
> little
> > and I appreciate your assistance
> > and guidance in this!
> > Regards
> > Joe
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 1:51 AM Tom Van Baak <tvb at leapsecond.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Joe,
> >>
> >>   > I log the output of the TIC, in nanoseconds, and use that file to
> >> generate an ADEV plot.
> >>
> >> Good. That's what you need. During normal operation those readings are
> >> bounded by the PLL. So it's essentially a measurement of how well the
> >> PLL is working, how aggressive the OCXO is steered, etc. ADEV isn't the
> >> best way to process that kind of data because it's a boring, even
> >> misleading, straight line going down forever.
> >>
> >>   > Maybe my setup is in fact comparing itself with itself?..!
> >>
> >> Yes. Oops. But, here's an idea for you.
> >>
> >> One useful technique is to have your GPSDO running fine and then
> >> *disable* the disciplining. If you designed the GPSDO you'll know the
> >> exact spot in the h/w or s/w to do this. From this point forward your
> >> OCXO is still running, your GPS/1PPS receiver is still receiving, the
> >> TIC is still comparing, and you are still logging TIC readings every
> >> second. But now the DAC is frozen and the OCXO is free-running.
> >>
> >> When you plot this data you will see phase slowly wandering away from
> >> zero, you may see a slight drift in frequency, and mostly what you will
> >> see is the "bathtub" ADEV shape that you were looking for. This method
> >> works because as soon as your disable disciplining your OCXO becomes
> >> independent of GPS and so the ADEV plot will be a measurement of an
> >> oscillator instead of a measurement of a PLL.
> >>
> >> This is not something you would do everyday, but especially now that you
> >> are understanding how a GPSDO works and playing with Allan statistics
> >> it's a educational exercise.
> >>
> >> The Trimble Thunderbolt (aka TBolt) GPSDO has this disable-disciplining
> >> feature. Note it's not "holdover"; that's something else entirely.
> >>
> >> /tvb
> >>
> >>
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