[time-nuts] Re: GPSDO testing
Magnus Danielson
magnus at rubidium.se
Mon Aug 23 19:00:56 UTC 2021
Hi Rob!
Welcome!
On 2021-08-22 14:48, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> Welcome !!!
>
> At some point it is worth converting this stuff into relative units. They
> can be expressed in scientific form or engineering form. It saves a bit
> of time when working at this frequency today and that frequency tomorrow.
> It also lines up with the numbers you see in a typical OCXO spec sheet.
>
> Your standard deviation number is already in this sort of nomenclature.
> Itâs 1.4 x10^-9 or 1.4 ppb. At least for me the ppb (parts per billion) ppm
> (parts per million) and ppt (parts per trillion) seems to work better. Both
> are equally useful commonly used.
Also, considering scaling with frequency, as a higher or lower frequency
is generated, the relative frequency error is the same. Measuring limits
may however differ, which can work against you or for you.
> GPS can come in many flavors. What you are running is single band L1. For
> enough money you can run multiple bands and even toss in other GNSS systems
> like Glonas and Galileo. If handled properly, more satellites and more bands
> means better performance. Because of this you will see a range of numbers
> if you go looking at papers, depending on just what they were looking at.
Indeed true. When I got started in this, L1 C/A receiver with 6 or 8
channels was all I could get my hands on. Now there seem to be
multi-band receivers scattered in the lab and I should get a more
advanced receiver up to speed soon.
> Typically GPS via the normal antennas and chip sets delivers something in
> the low ns range after correction for sawtooth at 1 second. Your GPSDOâs
> do this so itâs a reasonable number in this case. That gets you a few ppb
> of noise. Go to 100 seconds and you have the same low ns noise. Now
> itâs over a longer period so you get tens of ppt noise.
>
> This same âit gets better at longer observation timesâ effect is common to a
> lot of devices, itâs hardly unique to GPSDOâs. Since it makes such a major
> difference, specifying just what time you are sampling at is a major part of
> this. One *assumes* (sometimes incorrectly) that when a time isnât specified
> the number is 1 second. The magic term used for the sample time is tau.
There is however one problem as you extend your observation interval.
The frequency drift starts to show up. At some point it will become
large enough to obscure the measurement. So, you learn to handle the
drift. The alternative to Allan Deviation is Hadamard Deviation, and
Hadamard Deviation (really the three-point Hadamard deviation as we
updated P1139 to say) does a first degree compensation of linear
frequency drift. Another is to estimate the drift, remove the drift and
then do the Allan deviation on that. One should be careful thought,
because drift removal also tends to consume some of the noise, because
the drift estimation is sensitive to long-term noise.
>
> Next up is the fact ( documented in a number of papers starting back in
> the 1960âs. Many by Barnes and Allan ) that measures like peak to peak
> and even standard deviation donât work well with frequency. The larger you
> number of observations, the worse those measures get. The result is that
> frequency âaccuracyâ tends to get some sort of footnote on it. ( maybe â99%
> of the time at 100 second tau â¦.).
This is true for any measure. The gaussian noise does not have defined
end-points, you just have various confidence intervals for various
degrees of confidence. For time and frequency, we have a host of
noise-types which is nastier than gaussian noise, so it's... interesting.
>
> By far the most common approach to evaluating stability of a frequency or
> time source is to use Allan deviation. ( ADEV ):
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance>
>
> Yes the page is for AVAR. For computational reasons AVAR is the âheartâ of
> the measure. You pretty much never see data presented in terms of AVAR.
The page describes both, and ADEV = SQRT(AVAR). It should be clear from
the page, if not I have to go and fix it.
> Just as GPS has a âfloorâ your counter has a floor as well. In a lot of cases
> this floor may not matter. It is unfortunately not low enough to measure a
> good OCXO at shorter tau. Typically you get the counter floor out to a point
> and then start âseeingâ the OCXO.
The counter floor is dominated by the 1/tau slope, which is close to the
single-shot resolution of your counter for tau=1s. I say close, because
it depends on it, but it's not that simple. While the counter resolution
noise behaves like white phase modulation noise, it's actually a
systematic noise. The actual noise depends on the systematic
phase-quantization and white phase modulation noise interaction.
> So yes, this all is complicated and there are lots of rabbit holes to run down
> already. There are a whole lot more bits and pieces that get into it one way
> or the other.
Indeed rabbit holes. I've been doing this for 20+ years and I've yet to
escape the rabbit holes.
> Getting back to your numbers. 0.001 Hz at 10 MHz is 0.1 ppb or 1x10^-10.
> Measured as ADEV you should be able to hit this with a typical GPSDO or OCXO
> at 1 second and beyond. You also should be able to do the usual â99% of the
> timeâ accuracy claim at 1 second and beyond if everything is working properly..
>
> If you want to test what you have, setting up to do ADEV (and understanding the
> counterâs limitations â¦. the dead spot at 10 MHz â¦.) is the best way to validate
> things â¦..
>
> Fun !!!!
Oh yes.
I strongly recommend grabbing data with TimeLab. I also suggest you
download Stable32 from IEEE UFFC and do additional processing there.
As you get data coming into TimeLab, you can see how the highest tau
(longest observation interval) flaps like crazy, but as you see more
data comes in you see how the variations around that point lowers. This
is your confidence interval improving for that observation interval.
Also, flipping around viewing the various deviations, phase and
frequency all helps to build experience. The unwrapped phase and wrapped
phase views can be useful to help uncover measurement setup issues, but
once one learned how to handle that, it ceases to be as interesting and
one can move ones attention to other things.
Cheers,
Magnus
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