[time-nuts] Re: DIY Low offset Phase Noise Analyzer (Erik Kaashoek)
Erik Kaashoek
erik at kaashoek.com
Fri Jul 8 17:16:39 UTC 2022
Bob,
Clear, you have a lot more experience and knowledge. For me this is
typical a case of "If you don't know about something it must be simple"
So best would be to make it possible in the simple PNA to switch off the
opamp gain, without changing the impedance the mixer sees, so the
offset tuned signal can be used to calibrate the slope.
I found this picture very helpful to understand the relation between
phase modulation depth and the strength of the side bands
http://athome.kaashoek.com/time-nuts/PM_Sidebands.JPG
It shows that below 0.2 radian peak phase modulation you can simplify to
narrowband FM as only the 1st sideband has relevant power (certainly for
the accuracy I am after)
The whole presentation including the calculation can be found here:
http://athome.kaashoek.com/time-nuts/Measuring_phase_modulation.pdf
Written by Bob Nelson from Keysight.
Very helpful presentation for people (like me) that are new to all this.
Erik.
On 8-7-2022 18:58, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> Like it or not, the mixer is a non-linear load. It also has a frequency
> dependence. Even with âsaturationâ levels, the slope can and does
> change. Thatâs the short list, as you dive into it, things get even more
> complex in terms of âmight beâ sort of issues.
>
> How can you be in saturation and have the slope change ( it does sound
> unreasonable) ? The fundamental is not changing much (so you are
> in saturation). The harmonics of the fundamental are changing. Since
> the output is actually a triangle wave with rounded âcornersâ there are
> indeed harmonics very much present.
>
> The flat parts of the triangle wave are a âgood thingâ in this case. It
> makes the device linear over a bit wider range than a sine wave would
> provide. This gets you out of all sorts of nutty analysis concerning the
> noise being âto muchâ to measure with the device. It also relaxes the
> needed accuracy of the DC lock part of things. ( = slope of a sine wave
> changes quickly â¦.).
>
> You never really get away from the âto much noiseâ question. The
> common definition of phase noise is that itâs more than 60 db below
> carrier. That is really just the commonly used limit for âyou may need
> to think about FM sidebandsâ. Yes, thatâs another rabbit hole to wander
> down â¦.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jul 8, 2022, at 8:32 AM, Erik Kaashoek <erik at kaashoek.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bob
>> This confuses me.
>>> The calibration of the system changes ( or can change ) each and every time you swap
>>> out signal sources. The levels are not going to be consistent setup to setup. Thus you
>>> calibrate each and every time you change out either device.
>> Assuming each source is saturating the mixer sufficiently (to be confirmed by measuring the output level of the source into 50 ohm) I do not understand how changing a source can change the calibration. Can you explain what is happening?
>> Please keep in mind I'm not after 0.1dBc/Hz accuracy, +/- 5dBc/Hz would already be great.
>> Erik.
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