[time-nuts] Re: Please help. Motorola Oncore

Art Sepin art at synergy-gps.com
Wed Sep 21 20:24:38 UTC 2022 

Hi Folks,

> It should be not relevant for the GT+ and UT+ mentioned here.

Azelio is correct. That Motorola App-Note was only relevant for the Motorola 6 and 8 channel VP Oncore series of GPS receivers (from model numbers starting with B1, B3, B4 and B8) that incorporated a "pendulum oscillator." That oscillator design required a periodic power-cycle to store current oscillator data. Over long periods of being powered on, the VP Oncore oscillator frequency would drift to the extent that satellites were difficult to acquire and those that were already being tracked exhibited lower signal strengths (a condition that closely resembled an RF front end operating in compression). A different oscillator design was incorporated in the follow-on  8 channel GT+, UT+  designs and the 12 channel M12+/M12M receivers. We still have a few of those old receivers that work fine for time of day and 1PPS but the date is incorrect.  

I forwarded a more relevant "VP Oncore Start-Up" App-Note to John. It and other Tech-Notes covering Motorola's legacy receivers have not been available from Synergy's web site since we were hacked a couple of years ago. We plan to restore those archives but our current business obligations come first.

Art

-----Original Message-----
From: Azelio Boriani via time-nuts <time-nuts at lists.febo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2022 2:08 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
Cc: Azelio Boriani <azelio.boriani at gmail.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] Re: Please help. Motorola Oncore

The Motorola service note, that John Ackermann was referring to, should be this:

<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsynergy-gps.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F06%2FVP_SERVICE_NOTE.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Cart%40synergy-gps.com%7C4ace52e03c484899400408da9bb408f1%7Cc81f9fdec0e04d8c95779afaa0cad9ed%7C1%7C0%7C637993494800991034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rXHaX2viR1Rchh0mJrffAq9QcFzw6saKjTi9vpqFsWQ%3D&reserved=0>

It should be not relevant for the GT+ and UT+ mentioned here.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 6:23 PM Marcelo Dantas via time-nuts <time-nuts at lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> I am wondering if this issue could be caused by the way I am setting 
> the date/time when setting it up on WinOncore.
> I am in NY, N 41.10.0481, W 074.11.2900, 408ft. So I enter this data 
> into the initial reference position. Telling the software to set it 
> into the position hold position.
> For the initial reference time I tried entering UTC time and leaving 
> the GMT offset +0, or my local time and setting the GMT offset to -4, 
> also some combinations of that.
> I already gave up on the UT+, but the GT+ at some point showed 
> "visible satellites", though it wouldn't track any. As this happened 
> way into my trial and error process, I was unable to verify which 
> combination gave me these results.
> Sorry if I sound like a complete noob (which I am) but I have noticed 
> that, by changing the time it would show different satellites in 
> different positions, so I thought: aha, it is based on almanac+time, 
> not on what it is actually "seeing" in the sky. I mean, I am not a 
> specialist on this by any means, but I am suspecting it tracks based 
> on where the satellites should be at a given time, not by listening to where they actually are?
> (please don't give up on me)
> Anyways, could be that I am telling the GPS wrong information on its 
> initialization, which makes it go bananas and not find anything. And 
> lacking a valid almanac it would not be able to even build one based 
> on the wrong information I provided?  I am shooting in the dark here.
>
> Thanks,
> Marcelo.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 4:27 AM Magnus Danielson via time-nuts < 
> time-nuts at lists.febo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Not really. The format is the same. Subtle clarifications and use of 
> > flag fields is however.
> >
> > One aviation GPS receiver crashed whenever the flag was set as a new 
> > satellite was introduced into the constellation. Considering the 
> > cost and effort involved of recertifying it after a bugfix, it 
> > became a hesitation to fix it. I think this was a learning 
> > experience to the air industry, so I think they now have means to 
> > address it on more regular basis, since I know that in more recent 
> > history the lack of timely update has been the reason for GPS 
> > receiver problems, not the lack of update as such. I will ask around on this.
> >
> > It's the GPS III signals which will be very different, as it is 
> > packet based.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Magnus
> >
> > On 2022-09-20 00:27, Bob kb8tq via time-nuts wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > It would not surprise me at all to find that a modern version of 
> > > the almanac is different than the 1998 version. A lot has changed 
> > > since then.
> > >
> > > Given that you can find these for < $10 on eBay. I would not 
> > > invest a lot in them at this point .... Once you get them running, 
> > > you will have roll over issues.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >> On Sep 19, 2022, at 4:36 PM, Marcelo Dantas 
> > >> <marcelo.f.dantas at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi Bob,
> > >>
> > >> The modules are old. 1998/2000.
> > >>
> > >> I have left the UT+ running for about 36 Hrs. I have noticed that 
> > >> the
> > battery on the UT+ is dead, so I am ordering a replacement.
> > >> However, while running powered for 36 hours I expected it would 
> > >> see
> > "something". I wish there was a way to verify some of its internal 
> > information, to see if it was actually collecting something.
> > >>
> > >> The WinOncore software allows you to upload an almanac, and it 
> > >> talks
> > about a .alm file extension, and on the .gov site I only found a 
> > latest_yuma.alm file, which I uploaded, but it would still show "bad 
> > almanac".
> > >> I have also tried to upload a .al3 (SEM) file, with the same result.
> > >> Both files seem to upload, so I am not sure which one should be 
> > >> the
> > correct one, or if both are.   I am assuming the yuma because it has the
> > .alm extension. (still a noob in this matter)
> > >>
> > >> On a new development, the GT+ started showing satellites, it 
> > >> shows 10
> > satellites visible, zero tracked.
> > >> The UT+ regardless of the almanacs uploaded, still shows zero 
> > >> visible,
> > zero tracked.
> > >>
> > >> I am still trying to find a reference to the correct (expected) 
> > >> almanac
> > file format and to the eventual calibration procedure referred previously.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Marcelo.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 5:10 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org <mailto:
> > kb8tq at n1k.org>> wrote:
> > >> Hi
> > >>
> > >> If it's showing "bad almanac" then that is part of the issue.
> > >> It may not be *all* of the issue ....
> > >>
> > >> How old are these modules? They went through several revisions 
> > >> and each one was a big leap over the previous version. If they 
> > >> date back far enough, it could take a very long time to come up 
> > >> with an almanac.
> > >>
> > >> Bob
> > >>
> > >>> On Sep 19, 2022, at 3:41 PM, Marcelo Dantas <
> > marcelo.f.dantas at gmail.com <mailto:marcelo.f.dantas at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> @Bjorn: It is the same antenna which worked back then, it was 
> > >>> sitting
> > there in the same drawer. So, unless it degrades somehow over time, 
> > it should continue to work I guess.
> > >>> I have no idea though how to measure/verify if there's 
> > >>> saturation
> > going on.
> > >>> When I plugged this antenna to a U-Blox it immediately kicked in 
> > >>> with
> > a bunch of satellites in view, but the U-Blox might also have a 
> > different input impedance.
> > >>>
> > >>> @Bob "off for a while" means since mid 2018. So I immediately 
> > >>> thought
> > of an almanac, however I could not yet figure out the .alm file it 
> > would require.
> > >>> I have downloaded almanac files from the web, not oncore 
> > >>> specific, but
> > when importing them via WinOncore I do not get any success/failure 
> > messages, and the device continues to show "bad almanac"  on its status.
> > >>> I have a feeling that the issue is towards bad/outdated internal
> > information. Or maybe the calibration John spoke about, if I can 
> > figure it out, could help.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>> Marcelo.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 4:26 PM Bob kb8tq via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts at lists.febo.com <mailto:time-nuts at lists.febo.com>> wrote:
> > >>> Hi
> > >>>
> > >>> The other gotcha depends a lot on just how long "off for a while" is.
> > >>> If any of these devices are off power for decades, the internal 
> > >>> data for the almanac ( = which sats are where ) will be way off.
> > >>>
> > >>> The process of random search is a lot faster with the newer modules.
> > >>> They have way more processing horsepower. Just how many hours 
> > >>> (or days) it takes this or that example of an early module to 
> > >>> come back to life .... who knows ....
> > >>>
> > >>> Bob
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sep 19, 2022, at 2:14 PM, John Ackermann N8UR via time-nuts 
> > >>>> <
> > time-nuts at lists.febo.com <mailto:time-nuts at lists.febo.com>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Some of the early Motorola receivers had an issue with 
> > >>>> long-term XO
> > drift.  That can result in failure to lock if the unit has been 
> > powered off for a long time.  There is a procedure to recalibrate it 
> > (no test equipment required).  I think it was written up in a 
> > Motorola app note that's available on line, but I can't put my finger on it right now.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> John
> > >>>> -----
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 9/19/22 07:53, Gregory Beat via time-nuts wrote:
> > >>>>> IF you start with Fixed Position mode, THEN this speeds up process.
> > >>>>> I would also suggest a CLEAR View of Sky for the Antenna.
> > >>>>> Motorola Oncore UT Plus Engineering Notes (circa 2000)
> > >>>>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2
> > >>>>> F%2Fsynergy-gps.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F11%2Fut-en
> > >>>>> gg-notes.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Cart%40synergy-gps.com%7C4ace52
> > >>>>> e03c484899400408da9bb408f1%7Cc81f9fdec0e04d8c95779afaa0cad9ed%
> > >>>>> 7C1%7C0%7C637993494800991034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiM
> > >>>>> C4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C30
> > >>>>> 00%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MWfmHEZV86UmB5NZ%2FW9C7zXwxcIIQPvRb%2F6t
> > >>>>> AD59yF0%3D&reserved=0
> > <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fs
> > ynergy-gps.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F11%2Fut-engg-notes.pd
> > f&data=05%7C01%7Cart%40synergy-gps.com%7C4ace52e03c484899400408d
> > a9bb408f1%7Cc81f9fdec0e04d8c95779afaa0cad9ed%7C1%7C0%7C6379934948009
> > 91034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC
> > JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=MWfmHEZV86UmB
> > 5NZ%2FW9C7zXwxcIIQPvRb%2F6tAD59yF0%3D&reserved=0>
> > >>>>> Motorola Oncore GT Plus Engineering Notes (circa 2000)
> > >>>>> https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2
> > >>>>> F%2Fwww.tapr.org%2Fpdf%2FGT_Eng_Notes.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Ca
> > >>>>> rt%40synergy-gps.com%7C4ace52e03c484899400408da9bb408f1%7Cc81f
> > >>>>> 9fdec0e04d8c95779afaa0cad9ed%7C1%7C0%7C637993494800991034%7CUn
> > >>>>> known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi
> > >>>>> I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Zp9Vr5IPVPM
> > >>>>> PKy1jfkVZrsxVP4NMnY142cF80v4eIs4%3D&reserved=0 <
> > https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fww
> > w.tapr.org%2Fpdf%2FGT_Eng_Notes.pdf&data=05%7C01%7Cart%40synergy
> > -gps.com%7C4ace52e03c484899400408da9bb408f1%7Cc81f9fdec0e04d8c95779a
> > faa0cad9ed%7C1%7C0%7C637993494800991034%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJW
> > IjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
> > 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Zp9Vr5IPVPMPKy1jfkVZrsxVP4NMnY142cF80v4eIs4%3D&
> > amp;reserved=0>
> > >>>>> UT Plus model numbers:
> > >>>>> R5122U111x - right angle OSX
> > >>>>> R5222U111x - right angle OSX, on-board Lithium battery 
> > >>>>> R5122U115x - straight OSX GT Plus model numbers:
> > >>>>> R3111G111x - standard version
> > >>>>> R3211G111x - on-board Lithium battery R3111G114x - SMB antenna 
> > >>>>> connector greg, w9gb ==
> > >>>>> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2022 08:42:18 -0400
> > >>>>> From: Marcelo Dantas <marcelo.f.dantas at gmail.com <mailto:
> > marcelo.f.dantas at gmail.com>>
> > >>>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Thanks for adding me, and please help. 
> > >>>>> Motorola
> > Oncore
> > >>>>> To: time-nuts at lists.febo.com <mailto:time-nuts at lists.febo.com> 
> > >>>>> Hi there Everyone, Thanks for accepting me to this list.
> > >>>>> I am in (dire) need of help here and maybe one of you is a 
> > >>>>> Motorola
> > Oncore
> > >>>>> user and could assist.
> > >>>>> I have a couple Motorola Oncore modules, which I use mounted 
> > >>>>> to a "baseboard" for timing purposes.
> > >>>>> One is a R5222U1115 and the other a R3111G1112.
> > >>>>> They have been sitting in a drawer for some time. Being "some time"
> > since
> > >>>>> the pre-pandemic era.
> > >>>>> Now I am trying to use them again but for whatever reason they 
> > >>>>> won't
> > lock
> > >>>>> to any satellites.
> > >>>>> The modules are starting up, sending 1pps and seem to be 
> > >>>>> accepting
> > commands
> > >>>>> correctly.
> > >>>>> I have also tested the baseboard (power, serial, etc) and the
> > antenna.
> > >>>>> The antenna works well on a third (non-motorola) module.
> > >>>>> I have tried everything, left the modules there running for 24 hours.
> > >>>>> No joy. None of them will lock to any satellites.
> > >>>>> I have tried defaulting them using WinOncore, no change.
> > >>>>> I have also tried to find an almanac file to upload, hoping it 
> > >>>>> would
> > help,
> > >>>>> but couldn't find one with the required .alm file extension.
> > >>>>> At this point I do not know what to do anymore. I have a 
> > >>>>> system
> > (module,
> > >>>>> board, antenna, power, etc.) that should just work, and yet it
> > refuses to.
> > >>>>> Maybe there's some special factory reset? Maybe there's some 
> > >>>>> command
> > I do
> > >>>>> not know about? Maybe other software than WinOncore with some 
> > >>>>> extra debug options?
> > >>>>> Any guidance here would be deeply appreciated.
> > >>>>> Thanks a lot in advance,
> > >>>>> Marcelo.
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
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