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Keithley 417 electrometer upgrade to solid-state

EB
ed breya
Tue, Jun 30, 2020 3:13 PM

I just converted my Keithley 417 to a solid-state front end, with good
results so far. This is my last electrometer that had a 5886 tube front
end, so I'll be getting rid of my maintenance stock of these tubes soon.
If anyone needs 5886s for maintenance of old Keithley and other gear
while keeping them in original stock condition, let me know.

So far it looks like I'm done with tubes for these applications. As the
new design is refined, I'll put up info if anyone is interested in
possible upgrades to the old gear. The new setup is looking good, with
only about 1-2 fA bias current at room temp, about ten times better than
the original spec.

Some background is here:

https://funwithtubes.groups.io/g/main/message/65994

Ed

I just converted my Keithley 417 to a solid-state front end, with good results so far. This is my last electrometer that had a 5886 tube front end, so I'll be getting rid of my maintenance stock of these tubes soon. If anyone needs 5886s for maintenance of old Keithley and other gear while keeping them in original stock condition, let me know. So far it looks like I'm done with tubes for these applications. As the new design is refined, I'll put up info if anyone is interested in possible upgrades to the old gear. The new setup is looking good, with only about 1-2 fA bias current at room temp, about ten times better than the original spec. Some background is here: https://funwithtubes.groups.io/g/main/message/65994 Ed
LA
Lou Amadio
Mon, Jul 6, 2020 9:51 PM

Hi Ed
I have a Keithley 610B that could benefit from a solid state front end.
Where can I get more details of your 417 conversion.
Lou

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:14 AM ed breya eb@telight.com wrote:

I just converted my Keithley 417 to a solid-state front end, with good
results so far. This is my last electrometer that had a 5886 tube front
end, so I'll be getting rid of my maintenance stock of these tubes soon.
If anyone needs 5886s for maintenance of old Keithley and other gear
while keeping them in original stock condition, let me know.

So far it looks like I'm done with tubes for these applications. As the
new design is refined, I'll put up info if anyone is interested in
possible upgrades to the old gear. The new setup is looking good, with
only about 1-2 fA bias current at room temp, about ten times better than
the original spec.

Some background is here:

https://funwithtubes.groups.io/g/main/message/65994

Ed


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Hi Ed I have a Keithley 610B that could benefit from a solid state front end. Where can I get more details of your 417 conversion. Lou On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:14 AM ed breya <eb@telight.com> wrote: > I just converted my Keithley 417 to a solid-state front end, with good > results so far. This is my last electrometer that had a 5886 tube front > end, so I'll be getting rid of my maintenance stock of these tubes soon. > If anyone needs 5886s for maintenance of old Keithley and other gear > while keeping them in original stock condition, let me know. > > So far it looks like I'm done with tubes for these applications. As the > new design is refined, I'll put up info if anyone is interested in > possible upgrades to the old gear. The new setup is looking good, with > only about 1-2 fA bias current at room temp, about ten times better than > the original spec. > > Some background is here: > > https://funwithtubes.groups.io/g/main/message/65994 > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
EB
ed breya
Tue, Jul 7, 2020 3:10 AM

Hi Lou.

I'll be putting up more info as the project progresses. This is kind of
an experiment with how some of the modern CMOS opamps are specified, how
they actually behave, and how to get the best performance from them.
I've been investigating these over the years, and it's quite a
complicated story. The bottom line so far is that some fairly mundane
parts are capable of phenomenal performance, once you know what's
inside. The key issues are the package and pinout versus application,
the input protection design, and of course temperature.

The 417 upgrade is based on an LMC6001B, which is about a twenty or more
year old design, that was promoted as an "electrometer-grade" opamp with
25 fA maximum bias current (for the premium "A" version). I got a bunch
of free sample, lesser performance "B" (100 fA) ones many years ago, and
decided to start there. The pinout is amenable to use in the inverting
mode, which is right for the 417, to replace the entire amplifier
circuit. From the specs, I expected it to be on par with the original
5886 tube, but found that it had only a few fA input bias at room temp,
and was even better (1-2 fA) after washing the input section. It's now
settles to somewhere below 1 fA as far as I can tell, after burning in
for a few days. This is with symmetric supplies +/-6.2V from 1N821 TC
Zeners, and a voltage follower buffer amp to minimize load-dependent
(feedback divider, meter movement, and possible external load up to 1
mA) self-heating of the LMC6001. The non-inerting input is only a few
k-ohms to common, which protects against leakage from the adjacent
negative supply pin. The pin 1 on this part is a no-connect, so has very
low leakage issues against the high-Z inverting input. So, the inverting
input is shielded by a floating pin (which could be grounded, except
that would increase the capacitance) on one side, and on the other side
by the non-nverting input that can only be up to a few mV away.

The opamp approach is also much more stable than the 5886 type, in terms
of offset voltage and drift - it's rock solid in comparison.

One problem with replacing the original circuits with opamps, is the
huge open-loop voltage gain. The original circuits had maybe 10,000
tops, while almost any modern opamps have ten to a hundred times as
much, and some even more. This makes the compensation and stabilization
trickier, especially considering that the original amplifiers often have
various compensation loops within their discrete stages, and also range
dependent. Using a single opamp gain block needs a different setup, and
that's the biggest problem right now.

Ed

Hi Lou. I'll be putting up more info as the project progresses. This is kind of an experiment with how some of the modern CMOS opamps are specified, how they actually behave, and how to get the best performance from them. I've been investigating these over the years, and it's quite a complicated story. The bottom line so far is that some fairly mundane parts are capable of phenomenal performance, once you know what's inside. The key issues are the package and pinout versus application, the input protection design, and of course temperature. The 417 upgrade is based on an LMC6001B, which is about a twenty or more year old design, that was promoted as an "electrometer-grade" opamp with 25 fA maximum bias current (for the premium "A" version). I got a bunch of free sample, lesser performance "B" (100 fA) ones many years ago, and decided to start there. The pinout is amenable to use in the inverting mode, which is right for the 417, to replace the entire amplifier circuit. From the specs, I expected it to be on par with the original 5886 tube, but found that it had only a few fA input bias at room temp, and was even better (1-2 fA) after washing the input section. It's now settles to somewhere below 1 fA as far as I can tell, after burning in for a few days. This is with symmetric supplies +/-6.2V from 1N821 TC Zeners, and a voltage follower buffer amp to minimize load-dependent (feedback divider, meter movement, and possible external load up to 1 mA) self-heating of the LMC6001. The non-inerting input is only a few k-ohms to common, which protects against leakage from the adjacent negative supply pin. The pin 1 on this part is a no-connect, so has very low leakage issues against the high-Z inverting input. So, the inverting input is shielded by a floating pin (which could be grounded, except that would increase the capacitance) on one side, and on the other side by the non-nverting input that can only be up to a few mV away. The opamp approach is also much more stable than the 5886 type, in terms of offset voltage and drift - it's rock solid in comparison. One problem with replacing the original circuits with opamps, is the huge open-loop voltage gain. The original circuits had maybe 10,000 tops, while almost any modern opamps have ten to a hundred times as much, and some even more. This makes the compensation and stabilization trickier, especially considering that the original amplifiers often have various compensation loops within their discrete stages, and also range dependent. Using a single opamp gain block needs a different setup, and that's the biggest problem right now. Ed
LA
Lou Amadio
Tue, Jul 7, 2020 6:18 AM

Hi Ed. Thanks for the quick update. Had a quick look on eBay and the LMC
chip varies in price from $2 to over $50AUD! Difficult to choose because of
counterfeit chips.

I will wait until you finish your experiments before deciding.
Lou

On Tue, 7 Jul. 2020, 1:11 pm ed breya, eb@telight.com wrote:

Hi Lou.

I'll be putting up more info as the project progresses. This is kind of
an experiment with how some of the modern CMOS opamps are specified, how
they actually behave, and how to get the best performance from them.
I've been investigating these over the years, and it's quite a
complicated story. The bottom line so far is that some fairly mundane
parts are capable of phenomenal performance, once you know what's
inside. The key issues are the package and pinout versus application,
the input protection design, and of course temperature.

The 417 upgrade is based on an LMC6001B, which is about a twenty or more
year old design, that was promoted as an "electrometer-grade" opamp with
25 fA maximum bias current (for the premium "A" version). I got a bunch
of free sample, lesser performance "B" (100 fA) ones many years ago, and
decided to start there. The pinout is amenable to use in the inverting
mode, which is right for the 417, to replace the entire amplifier
circuit. From the specs, I expected it to be on par with the original
5886 tube, but found that it had only a few fA input bias at room temp,
and was even better (1-2 fA) after washing the input section. It's now
settles to somewhere below 1 fA as far as I can tell, after burning in
for a few days. This is with symmetric supplies +/-6.2V from 1N821 TC
Zeners, and a voltage follower buffer amp to minimize load-dependent
(feedback divider, meter movement, and possible external load up to 1
mA) self-heating of the LMC6001. The non-inerting input is only a few
k-ohms to common, which protects against leakage from the adjacent
negative supply pin. The pin 1 on this part is a no-connect, so has very
low leakage issues against the high-Z inverting input. So, the inverting
input is shielded by a floating pin (which could be grounded, except
that would increase the capacitance) on one side, and on the other side
by the non-nverting input that can only be up to a few mV away.

The opamp approach is also much more stable than the 5886 type, in terms
of offset voltage and drift - it's rock solid in comparison.

One problem with replacing the original circuits with opamps, is the
huge open-loop voltage gain. The original circuits had maybe 10,000
tops, while almost any modern opamps have ten to a hundred times as
much, and some even more. This makes the compensation and stabilization
trickier, especially considering that the original amplifiers often have
various compensation loops within their discrete stages, and also range
dependent. Using a single opamp gain block needs a different setup, and
that's the biggest problem right now.

Ed


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Hi Ed. Thanks for the quick update. Had a quick look on eBay and the LMC chip varies in price from $2 to over $50AUD! Difficult to choose because of counterfeit chips. I will wait until you finish your experiments before deciding. Lou On Tue, 7 Jul. 2020, 1:11 pm ed breya, <eb@telight.com> wrote: > Hi Lou. > > I'll be putting up more info as the project progresses. This is kind of > an experiment with how some of the modern CMOS opamps are specified, how > they actually behave, and how to get the best performance from them. > I've been investigating these over the years, and it's quite a > complicated story. The bottom line so far is that some fairly mundane > parts are capable of phenomenal performance, once you know what's > inside. The key issues are the package and pinout versus application, > the input protection design, and of course temperature. > > The 417 upgrade is based on an LMC6001B, which is about a twenty or more > year old design, that was promoted as an "electrometer-grade" opamp with > 25 fA maximum bias current (for the premium "A" version). I got a bunch > of free sample, lesser performance "B" (100 fA) ones many years ago, and > decided to start there. The pinout is amenable to use in the inverting > mode, which is right for the 417, to replace the entire amplifier > circuit. From the specs, I expected it to be on par with the original > 5886 tube, but found that it had only a few fA input bias at room temp, > and was even better (1-2 fA) after washing the input section. It's now > settles to somewhere below 1 fA as far as I can tell, after burning in > for a few days. This is with symmetric supplies +/-6.2V from 1N821 TC > Zeners, and a voltage follower buffer amp to minimize load-dependent > (feedback divider, meter movement, and possible external load up to 1 > mA) self-heating of the LMC6001. The non-inerting input is only a few > k-ohms to common, which protects against leakage from the adjacent > negative supply pin. The pin 1 on this part is a no-connect, so has very > low leakage issues against the high-Z inverting input. So, the inverting > input is shielded by a floating pin (which could be grounded, except > that would increase the capacitance) on one side, and on the other side > by the non-nverting input that can only be up to a few mV away. > > The opamp approach is also much more stable than the 5886 type, in terms > of offset voltage and drift - it's rock solid in comparison. > > One problem with replacing the original circuits with opamps, is the > huge open-loop voltage gain. The original circuits had maybe 10,000 > tops, while almost any modern opamps have ten to a hundred times as > much, and some even more. This makes the compensation and stabilization > trickier, especially considering that the original amplifiers often have > various compensation loops within their discrete stages, and also range > dependent. Using a single opamp gain block needs a different setup, and > that's the biggest problem right now. > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
EB
ed breya
Wed, Jul 8, 2020 1:02 AM

I just did a quickie experiment to get higher resolution. I rigged up an
external meter movement about the same size as the internal one, hooked
to the monitor out, which is 3V FS. The external meter is set up for
about ten times the sensitivity, so 300 mV FS. I wanted to see how the
noise looks, with similar meter ballistics, and expand the zone around
zero to assess the bias current. The net result is the external meter
reads about 10 fA FS, and the noise and drift are still low enough to be
quite usable. The latest bias current estimate is about 50-100 aA,
slowly dithering around less than plus one percent of FS, with
occasional jumps to about 500 aA or less. I can't tell yet if these
jumps are part of the 1/f noise, or line noise and transients getting
through the power supplies.

Anyway, presuming I didn't make any mistakes in my measuring and
figuring, this is quite impressive. I hope I just didn't get lucky with
one particular part, but I think the others will be similar. I will
eventually be checking them all, and other part types, in test setups.

For reference, I confirmed the scaling. With the 417 set up for maximum
sensitivity, it's 100 fA FS. Putting the suppression supply at 100 mV
through the top 1E12 resistor, it reads near full scale. Setting at 10
mV, the internal meter reads ten percent of FS, and the external meter
reads near its full scale. BTW I can set the suppression directly with
mV resolution. Long ago, I changed the last digit pot to a ten-turn
precision type with a kilodial indicator - it's nice.

This is now over a hundred times better than the original spec for the
417's grid current. When it's all said and done, I'll likely add a 10X
meter switch arrangement in the 417, to get a 10 fA FS range capability
too. It may be good even at much higher sensitivity, but 10X is pretty
good, and I likely won't need any more, practically speaking. Besides,
putting a DVM (and some filtering) on the output can expand it even
more, if ever necessary.

One problem I did find, is there's some line ripple appearing in the
output signal, which I need to investigate. It's pretty small - about
one percent FS - and the meters don't notice it, but it still bugs me,
since it's way bigger than the apparent random noise.

Ed

I just did a quickie experiment to get higher resolution. I rigged up an external meter movement about the same size as the internal one, hooked to the monitor out, which is 3V FS. The external meter is set up for about ten times the sensitivity, so 300 mV FS. I wanted to see how the noise looks, with similar meter ballistics, and expand the zone around zero to assess the bias current. The net result is the external meter reads about 10 fA FS, and the noise and drift are still low enough to be quite usable. The latest bias current estimate is about 50-100 aA, slowly dithering around less than plus one percent of FS, with occasional jumps to about 500 aA or less. I can't tell yet if these jumps are part of the 1/f noise, or line noise and transients getting through the power supplies. Anyway, presuming I didn't make any mistakes in my measuring and figuring, this is quite impressive. I hope I just didn't get lucky with one particular part, but I think the others will be similar. I will eventually be checking them all, and other part types, in test setups. For reference, I confirmed the scaling. With the 417 set up for maximum sensitivity, it's 100 fA FS. Putting the suppression supply at 100 mV through the top 1E12 resistor, it reads near full scale. Setting at 10 mV, the internal meter reads ten percent of FS, and the external meter reads near its full scale. BTW I can set the suppression directly with mV resolution. Long ago, I changed the last digit pot to a ten-turn precision type with a kilodial indicator - it's nice. This is now over a hundred times better than the original spec for the 417's grid current. When it's all said and done, I'll likely add a 10X meter switch arrangement in the 417, to get a 10 fA FS range capability too. It may be good even at much higher sensitivity, but 10X is pretty good, and I likely won't need any more, practically speaking. Besides, putting a DVM (and some filtering) on the output can expand it even more, if ever necessary. One problem I did find, is there's some line ripple appearing in the output signal, which I need to investigate. It's pretty small - about one percent FS - and the meters don't notice it, but it still bugs me, since it's way bigger than the apparent random noise. Ed
LA
Lou Amadio
Wed, Jul 8, 2020 5:09 AM

Very impressive Ed. Looking forward to seeing more detail on the 417 front
end solid state conversion when you are ready to publish.

Did a quick search on the net for Keithley 417, but nothing came up. I
wanted to see if the circuit is similar to the Keithley 610B.
Lou

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:03 AM ed breya eb@telight.com wrote:

I just did a quickie experiment to get higher resolution. I rigged up an
external meter movement about the same size as the internal one, hooked
to the monitor out, which is 3V FS. The external meter is set up for
about ten times the sensitivity, so 300 mV FS. I wanted to see how the
noise looks, with similar meter ballistics, and expand the zone around
zero to assess the bias current. The net result is the external meter
reads about 10 fA FS, and the noise and drift are still low enough to be
quite usable. The latest bias current estimate is about 50-100 aA,
slowly dithering around less than plus one percent of FS, with
occasional jumps to about 500 aA or less. I can't tell yet if these
jumps are part of the 1/f noise, or line noise and transients getting
through the power supplies.

Anyway, presuming I didn't make any mistakes in my measuring and
figuring, this is quite impressive. I hope I just didn't get lucky with
one particular part, but I think the others will be similar. I will
eventually be checking them all, and other part types, in test setups.

For reference, I confirmed the scaling. With the 417 set up for maximum
sensitivity, it's 100 fA FS. Putting the suppression supply at 100 mV
through the top 1E12 resistor, it reads near full scale. Setting at 10
mV, the internal meter reads ten percent of FS, and the external meter
reads near its full scale. BTW I can set the suppression directly with
mV resolution. Long ago, I changed the last digit pot to a ten-turn
precision type with a kilodial indicator - it's nice.

This is now over a hundred times better than the original spec for the
417's grid current. When it's all said and done, I'll likely add a 10X
meter switch arrangement in the 417, to get a 10 fA FS range capability
too. It may be good even at much higher sensitivity, but 10X is pretty
good, and I likely won't need any more, practically speaking. Besides,
putting a DVM (and some filtering) on the output can expand it even
more, if ever necessary.

One problem I did find, is there's some line ripple appearing in the
output signal, which I need to investigate. It's pretty small - about
one percent FS - and the meters don't notice it, but it still bugs me,
since it's way bigger than the apparent random noise.

Ed


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and follow the instructions there.

Very impressive Ed. Looking forward to seeing more detail on the 417 front end solid state conversion when you are ready to publish. Did a quick search on the net for Keithley 417, but nothing came up. I wanted to see if the circuit is similar to the Keithley 610B. Lou On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:03 AM ed breya <eb@telight.com> wrote: > I just did a quickie experiment to get higher resolution. I rigged up an > external meter movement about the same size as the internal one, hooked > to the monitor out, which is 3V FS. The external meter is set up for > about ten times the sensitivity, so 300 mV FS. I wanted to see how the > noise looks, with similar meter ballistics, and expand the zone around > zero to assess the bias current. The net result is the external meter > reads about 10 fA FS, and the noise and drift are still low enough to be > quite usable. The latest bias current estimate is about 50-100 aA, > slowly dithering around less than plus one percent of FS, with > occasional jumps to about 500 aA or less. I can't tell yet if these > jumps are part of the 1/f noise, or line noise and transients getting > through the power supplies. > > Anyway, presuming I didn't make any mistakes in my measuring and > figuring, this is quite impressive. I hope I just didn't get lucky with > one particular part, but I think the others will be similar. I will > eventually be checking them all, and other part types, in test setups. > > For reference, I confirmed the scaling. With the 417 set up for maximum > sensitivity, it's 100 fA FS. Putting the suppression supply at 100 mV > through the top 1E12 resistor, it reads near full scale. Setting at 10 > mV, the internal meter reads ten percent of FS, and the external meter > reads near its full scale. BTW I can set the suppression directly with > mV resolution. Long ago, I changed the last digit pot to a ten-turn > precision type with a kilodial indicator - it's nice. > > This is now over a hundred times better than the original spec for the > 417's grid current. When it's all said and done, I'll likely add a 10X > meter switch arrangement in the 417, to get a 10 fA FS range capability > too. It may be good even at much higher sensitivity, but 10X is pretty > good, and I likely won't need any more, practically speaking. Besides, > putting a DVM (and some filtering) on the output can expand it even > more, if ever necessary. > > One problem I did find, is there's some line ripple appearing in the > output signal, which I need to investigate. It's pretty small - about > one percent FS - and the meters don't notice it, but it still bugs me, > since it's way bigger than the apparent random noise. > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
EB
ed breya
Wed, Jul 8, 2020 4:43 PM

The 417 info is easy to find. Try "keithley 417 manual" in your search.
The Tektronix one pops up up first, out of many:

https://www.tek.com/manual/keithley-models-416-and-417-instruction-manual

Ed

The 417 info is easy to find. Try "keithley 417 manual" in your search. The Tektronix one pops up up first, out of many: https://www.tek.com/manual/keithley-models-416-and-417-instruction-manual Ed
RB
Rick Bale
Wed, Jul 8, 2020 6:12 PM

Guys, this would make for a great Youtube video!  Too late?

Rick

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:10 AM Lou Amadio lou.amadio11@gmail.com wrote:

Very impressive Ed. Looking forward to seeing more detail on the 417 front
end solid state conversion when you are ready to publish.

Did a quick search on the net for Keithley 417, but nothing came up. I
wanted to see if the circuit is similar to the Keithley 610B.
Lou

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:03 AM ed breya eb@telight.com wrote:

I just did a quickie experiment to get higher resolution. I rigged up an
external meter movement about the same size as the internal one, hooked
to the monitor out, which is 3V FS. The external meter is set up for
about ten times the sensitivity, so 300 mV FS. I wanted to see how the
noise looks, with similar meter ballistics, and expand the zone around
zero to assess the bias current. The net result is the external meter
reads about 10 fA FS, and the noise and drift are still low enough to be
quite usable. The latest bias current estimate is about 50-100 aA,
slowly dithering around less than plus one percent of FS, with
occasional jumps to about 500 aA or less. I can't tell yet if these
jumps are part of the 1/f noise, or line noise and transients getting
through the power supplies.

Anyway, presuming I didn't make any mistakes in my measuring and
figuring, this is quite impressive. I hope I just didn't get lucky with
one particular part, but I think the others will be similar. I will
eventually be checking them all, and other part types, in test setups.

For reference, I confirmed the scaling. With the 417 set up for maximum
sensitivity, it's 100 fA FS. Putting the suppression supply at 100 mV
through the top 1E12 resistor, it reads near full scale. Setting at 10
mV, the internal meter reads ten percent of FS, and the external meter
reads near its full scale. BTW I can set the suppression directly with
mV resolution. Long ago, I changed the last digit pot to a ten-turn
precision type with a kilodial indicator - it's nice.

This is now over a hundred times better than the original spec for the
417's grid current. When it's all said and done, I'll likely add a 10X
meter switch arrangement in the 417, to get a 10 fA FS range capability
too. It may be good even at much higher sensitivity, but 10X is pretty
good, and I likely won't need any more, practically speaking. Besides,
putting a DVM (and some filtering) on the output can expand it even
more, if ever necessary.

One problem I did find, is there's some line ripple appearing in the
output signal, which I need to investigate. It's pretty small - about
one percent FS - and the meters don't notice it, but it still bugs me,
since it's way bigger than the apparent random noise.

Ed


volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.


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To unsubscribe, go to
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Guys, this would make for a great Youtube video! Too late? Rick On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:10 AM Lou Amadio <lou.amadio11@gmail.com> wrote: > Very impressive Ed. Looking forward to seeing more detail on the 417 front > end solid state conversion when you are ready to publish. > > Did a quick search on the net for Keithley 417, but nothing came up. I > wanted to see if the circuit is similar to the Keithley 610B. > Lou > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 11:03 AM ed breya <eb@telight.com> wrote: > > > I just did a quickie experiment to get higher resolution. I rigged up an > > external meter movement about the same size as the internal one, hooked > > to the monitor out, which is 3V FS. The external meter is set up for > > about ten times the sensitivity, so 300 mV FS. I wanted to see how the > > noise looks, with similar meter ballistics, and expand the zone around > > zero to assess the bias current. The net result is the external meter > > reads about 10 fA FS, and the noise and drift are still low enough to be > > quite usable. The latest bias current estimate is about 50-100 aA, > > slowly dithering around less than plus one percent of FS, with > > occasional jumps to about 500 aA or less. I can't tell yet if these > > jumps are part of the 1/f noise, or line noise and transients getting > > through the power supplies. > > > > Anyway, presuming I didn't make any mistakes in my measuring and > > figuring, this is quite impressive. I hope I just didn't get lucky with > > one particular part, but I think the others will be similar. I will > > eventually be checking them all, and other part types, in test setups. > > > > For reference, I confirmed the scaling. With the 417 set up for maximum > > sensitivity, it's 100 fA FS. Putting the suppression supply at 100 mV > > through the top 1E12 resistor, it reads near full scale. Setting at 10 > > mV, the internal meter reads ten percent of FS, and the external meter > > reads near its full scale. BTW I can set the suppression directly with > > mV resolution. Long ago, I changed the last digit pot to a ten-turn > > precision type with a kilodial indicator - it's nice. > > > > This is now over a hundred times better than the original spec for the > > 417's grid current. When it's all said and done, I'll likely add a 10X > > meter switch arrangement in the 417, to get a 10 fA FS range capability > > too. It may be good even at much higher sensitivity, but 10X is pretty > > good, and I likely won't need any more, practically speaking. Besides, > > putting a DVM (and some filtering) on the output can expand it even > > more, if ever necessary. > > > > One problem I did find, is there's some line ripple appearing in the > > output signal, which I need to investigate. It's pretty small - about > > one percent FS - and the meters don't notice it, but it still bugs me, > > since it's way bigger than the apparent random noise. > > > > Ed > > > > _______________________________________________ > > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
LA
Lou Amadio
Wed, Jul 8, 2020 8:51 PM

Thanks Ed. I was searching for a 417 'electrometer' so no wonder I got no
hits!
Lou

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 2:44 AM ed breya eb@telight.com wrote:

The 417 info is easy to find. Try "keithley 417 manual" in your search.
The Tektronix one pops up up first, out of many:

https://www.tek.com/manual/keithley-models-416-and-417-instruction-manual

Ed


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Thanks Ed. I was searching for a 417 'electrometer' so no wonder I got no hits! Lou On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 2:44 AM ed breya <eb@telight.com> wrote: > The 417 info is easy to find. Try "keithley 417 manual" in your search. > The Tektronix one pops up up first, out of many: > > https://www.tek.com/manual/keithley-models-416-and-417-instruction-manual > > Ed > > _______________________________________________ > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts_lists.febo.com > and follow the instructions there. >
EB
ed breya
Tue, Jul 14, 2020 7:38 PM

Update.
The 417 has been running out in the garage for some time, and I've been
occasionally monitoring operation. It's uncontrolled temperature and
humidity, so I get to see a decent range of conditions. In the mornings,
after cooler ambient, the bias current appears about 1 fA or less, then
as things warm up, it gets down to the 0-+/-200 aA range at some ideal
condition, then increase to about 1 fA max in the other direction later
in the day.

On top of this are occasional jumps up to an extra fA or two in either
direction. Also some 120 Hz line ripple that was about 1% FS p-p, which
I have reduced greatly with some temporary changes in the wiring. Again,
the drift and jumps may be from many factors that I can't pinpoint yet.
Besides temperature, there is the random noise and 1/f noise at the
front, and line regulation and transient susceptibility to consider, and
possibly noise at the back end gain ranging switch contact noise, and
connection pin noise. The 417 is a plug-in type deal, and the business
end connects to the main box through a DB-15 connector, and has
provision to run on an extension cable too. Everything adds to the
situation, and the signals are at very low levels, so difficult to
assess cause and effect.

One thing that I think I've determined, is that some of the jumps may be
due to occasional ionizing radiation hits. Last night it was running
around 600 aA, and I placed a bag of thorium mantles on top of the
plug-in's back end, where all the action is. It promptly ran up to about
3 fA and stayed, then went back to the original range when it was removed.

Also, days ago, it seemed to get into a high leakage mode sometimes
especially after being cool over night. The bias would stick around 2-3
fA then much later in the day finally settle down. I believe I have
fixed this problem by changing the first stage compensation cap. It's
hard to say for sure the effect of changes on things like this, because
sometimes the act of simply taking something apart and putting it back
together (necessary each time plug-in is worked on) is actually what
makes the difference.

The opamp front end is temporarily way over-damped with a small cap
(actually two stages of C)  from the output to inverting input, so I
could get stable DC operation. It's mechanically not possible to work on
the plug-in in place, so each group of changes I want to try means
removing it and opening the case, doing the stuff, then putting it all
back. Ideally, this could be done while on a proper extension cable,
which I need to build. I tried a standard DB-15 straight-through cable,
but it all oscillated horribly. The cable needs to be built the right
way to eliminate crosstalk  Until then, I do only a little at a time,
with no live testing available.

The compensation cap is a 1 pF glass type (because I don't have any
polystyrene ones that low). With cleaning, but no silicone treatment,
its body resistance is probably around E11-E13 ohms tops, comparable to
the highest feedback R E12 ohms. To isolate the opamp's DC output from
the glass resistance, I used an extra stage 1000 pF, then a 100 meg R to
common/guard, then the 1 pF cap. This way, the glass sees nearly zero DC
at the output end, minimizing leakage current, while the capacitive
current goes right through. I suspect that the mica cap I used initially
may have been way too leaky (virtually all my parts of all types are old
used pulls, so may be of questionable condition). Replacing it with a
well washed polystyrene one seems to have fixed it, and I haven't seen
the behavior since - although it may be just coincidence, as outlined above.

I'll have more to say later. I pulled out some of my other electrometers
too, and have some interesting observations.

Ed

Update. The 417 has been running out in the garage for some time, and I've been occasionally monitoring operation. It's uncontrolled temperature and humidity, so I get to see a decent range of conditions. In the mornings, after cooler ambient, the bias current appears about 1 fA or less, then as things warm up, it gets down to the 0-+/-200 aA range at some ideal condition, then increase to about 1 fA max in the other direction later in the day. On top of this are occasional jumps up to an extra fA or two in either direction. Also some 120 Hz line ripple that was about 1% FS p-p, which I have reduced greatly with some temporary changes in the wiring. Again, the drift and jumps may be from many factors that I can't pinpoint yet. Besides temperature, there is the random noise and 1/f noise at the front, and line regulation and transient susceptibility to consider, and possibly noise at the back end gain ranging switch contact noise, and connection pin noise. The 417 is a plug-in type deal, and the business end connects to the main box through a DB-15 connector, and has provision to run on an extension cable too. Everything adds to the situation, and the signals are at very low levels, so difficult to assess cause and effect. One thing that I think I've determined, is that some of the jumps may be due to occasional ionizing radiation hits. Last night it was running around 600 aA, and I placed a bag of thorium mantles on top of the plug-in's back end, where all the action is. It promptly ran up to about 3 fA and stayed, then went back to the original range when it was removed. Also, days ago, it seemed to get into a high leakage mode sometimes especially after being cool over night. The bias would stick around 2-3 fA then much later in the day finally settle down. I believe I have fixed this problem by changing the first stage compensation cap. It's hard to say for sure the effect of changes on things like this, because sometimes the act of simply taking something apart and putting it back together (necessary each time plug-in is worked on) is actually what makes the difference. The opamp front end is temporarily way over-damped with a small cap (actually two stages of C) from the output to inverting input, so I could get stable DC operation. It's mechanically not possible to work on the plug-in in place, so each group of changes I want to try means removing it and opening the case, doing the stuff, then putting it all back. Ideally, this could be done while on a proper extension cable, which I need to build. I tried a standard DB-15 straight-through cable, but it all oscillated horribly. The cable needs to be built the right way to eliminate crosstalk Until then, I do only a little at a time, with no live testing available. The compensation cap is a 1 pF glass type (because I don't have any polystyrene ones that low). With cleaning, but no silicone treatment, its body resistance is probably around E11-E13 ohms tops, comparable to the highest feedback R E12 ohms. To isolate the opamp's DC output from the glass resistance, I used an extra stage 1000 pF, then a 100 meg R to common/guard, then the 1 pF cap. This way, the glass sees nearly zero DC at the output end, minimizing leakage current, while the capacitive current goes right through. I suspect that the mica cap I used initially may have been way too leaky (virtually all my parts of all types are old used pulls, so may be of questionable condition). Replacing it with a well washed polystyrene one seems to have fixed it, and I haven't seen the behavior since - although it may be just coincidence, as outlined above. I'll have more to say later. I pulled out some of my other electrometers too, and have some interesting observations. Ed