From david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Jan  1 03:40:22 2016
From: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk (David J Taylor)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 08:40:22 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] beaglebone black, debian, NTP client
In-Reply-To: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
References: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5EF2066379DB4A2C89D332747759A997@Alta>

Has anyone fooled with using NTP on a beaglebone black running Debian 
(the beagleboard.org image)?


I assume it's just a matter of turning on ntpd (which I'm not sure is 
even installed) and/or running ntpdate (I'm not looking for super 
accuracy.. it's for a sprinkler timer)
============================================

Yes, please see:
  http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/BBB-vs-RPi.html

Happy New Year!

David
-- 
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv

From opronningen at gmail.com  Fri Jan  1 05:08:00 2016
From: opronningen at gmail.com (Ole Petter Ronningen)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 11:08:00 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Public lecture on atomic and optical clocks
Message-ID: <CAG15_6sqSwd=bhaE0DELafk7Hzy6f_KNtqGp_h-ThOvGw2Y_zA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello

There is a relatively recent (november 2015) public lecture by David
Wineland on Youtube, titled "Keeping Better Time: The Era of Optical Atomic
Clocks". I thought it an interesting, clear overview for the non-expert.

Link: https://youtu.be/LxbkyuzXst4

I searched the archives, but could not find it - apologies if this has
already been reported.

Ole

From wb6bnq at cox.net  Fri Jan  1 02:52:53 2016
From: wb6bnq at cox.net (wb6bnq)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 23:52:53 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air
In-Reply-To: <0S4v1s00m52TSg001S4wi8>
References: <0S4v1s00m52TSg001S4wi8>
Message-ID: <56863055.20303@cox.net>

A whole year ago ? ? ? ? ?


paul swed wrote:

>The Wildwood, NJ eLoran transmitter will be continuously broadcasting from
>0900 (EST) on 05 January 2015 through 1500 (EST) on 15 January 2015.
>Wildwood will be broadcasting as 8970 Master and Secondary most of the time
>but occasionally may operate at other rates.
>
>Happy New Year everyone.
>
>Regards
>Paul
>WB8TSL
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>  
>



From lstoskopf at cox.net  Fri Jan  1 12:30:48 2016
From: lstoskopf at cox.net (lstoskopf at cox.net)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 12:30:48 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Gregorian Calendar
In-Reply-To: <0h021s00n52TSg001h07r8>
Message-ID: <20160101123048.V6C5P.87241.root@eastrmwml105>

 OK, not to the precision this group uses, but interesting:

"<a href="https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/geopolitics-gregorian-calendar">The Geopolitics of the Gregorian Calendar</a> is republished with permission of Stratfor."

https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/geopolitics-gregorian-calendar

N0UU

From attila at kinali.ch  Fri Jan  1 16:19:07 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 22:19:07 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] beaglebone black, debian, NTP client
In-Reply-To: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
References: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20160101221907.8d78d2135332f4f1e6639187@kinali.ch>

On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 17:27:40 -0800
jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Has anyone fooled with using NTP on a beaglebone black running Debian 
> (the beagleboard.org image)?
> 
> I assume it's just a matter of turning on ntpd (which I'm not sure is 
> even installed) and/or running ntpdate (I'm not looking for super 
> accuracy.. it's for a sprinkler timer)

A couple of people have. If you look at the archives you'll find
a few of those. Dan Drown sticks out a bit here, as he is AFAIK
the only one who used a GPIO as a PPS input on the BBB:
(last mail seen around december 2014)

http://blog.dan.drown.org/beaglebone-black-timer-capture-driver/
http://blog.dan.drown.org/tcxo-beaglebone-black/

HTH

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri Jan  1 16:55:04 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 21:55:04 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Europe VLF almost without Loran-C
Message-ID: <10680.1451685304@critter.freebsd.dk>

I spent an hour with the HP8568B to document the time-relevant
signals left in VLF:

	http://phk.freebsd.dk/hacks/20151231_end_of_nels/index.html


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From ptdeboer at cs.utwente.nl  Fri Jan  1 17:18:39 2016
From: ptdeboer at cs.utwente.nl (Pieter-Tjerk de Boer)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 23:18:39 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] yesterday's European Loran-C shutdown
Message-ID: <20160101221839.GA17394@cs.utwente.nl>


Yesterday I made an SDR recording of the LW/MW spectrum to capture the
shutdown of the European LORAN-C stations. An analysis of that recording
is now available at http://pa3fwm.nl/signals/loran-2015/ .

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

From lists at philpem.me.uk  Sat Jan  2 06:11:50 2016
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 11:11:50 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] (OT) Looking for a paper from NAV01 (RIN International
 Conference on Navigation)
Message-ID: <5687B076.7040904@philpem.me.uk>

Hi all,

Does anyone happen to have a copy of the proceedings of the 2001 Royal 
Institute of Navigation Conference, "NAV 01: Location and Navigation"?

I'm looking for a copy of a paper:

Hartinger H, Willson MJ, Cousins N (2001): Augmentation of satellite 
positioning with an LF system.
Paper presented at the International Conference on Navigation NAV01, The 
Royal Institute of Navigation, London, November 6-8, 2001.

I've found the proceedings listed on the University of Hannover's 
library catalogue (<https://gso.gbv.de/DB=2.1/PPNSET?PPN=345269926>) but 
sadly no library I have access to has an inter-library loan agreement 
with them... :(

Apparently the British Library don't have a copy -- they have every year 
*but* 2001!

I've even contacted the RIN, but -- from what they told me -- they don't 
archive their journals (that's under the remit of Cambridge University 
Press) or conference proceedings...

This paper is on a commercial LF navigation system called "Datatrak" 
which I've been researching. I've got a MkII "Locator" receiver on my 
bench, and I'm trying to build a signal generator which will allow it to 
power on and locate itself (or rather decode the sythetic signals from 
the generator into a location).

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
philpem at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk

From david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Jan  2 06:47:09 2016
From: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk (David J Taylor)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 11:47:09 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] beaglebone black, debian, NTP client
In-Reply-To: <20160101221907.8d78d2135332f4f1e6639187@kinali.ch>
References: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
 <20160101221907.8d78d2135332f4f1e6639187@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <D4022880950C49EBAAC88C187ADE6695@Alta>

A couple of people have. If you look at the archives you'll find
a few of those. Dan Drown sticks out a bit here, as he is AFAIK
the only one who used a GPIO as a PPS input on the BBB:
(last mail seen around december 2014)

http://blog.dan.drown.org/beaglebone-black-timer-capture-driver/
http://blog.dan.drown.org/tcxo-beaglebone-black/

HTH

Attila Kinali
====================================

I'm also using PPS with the BBB - you even commented on my Web page!

  http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/BBB-vs-RPi.html

David
-- 
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv

From pete at petelancashire.com  Sat Jan  2 21:04:37 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 18:04:37 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] For those that use or thinking of using the Beagle Bone
	Black
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_FT_6ye=Odc45Y7CUJHUCU0AWr9kCxXVkK40uxOTfM0g@mail.gmail.com>

There is a spin of the board minus HDMI, It is called
the BB Green, and is $20 cheaper.

-pete

From lists at philpem.me.uk  Sun Jan  3 11:19:11 2016
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 16:19:11 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Problems with WinOncore12 2.1X3 and an M12+T
Message-ID: <568949FF.70208@philpem.me.uk>

Hi,

I'm currently testing a Motorola M12+T receiver for possible use in a
GPS-disciplined 10MHz oscillator. At the moment, I'm using WinOncore12
version 2.1X3 to communicate with it.

Unfortunately this version of WinOncore seems to be unable to decode the
12-channel control messages, which means things like the TRAIM status
don't display -- Pulse Status is always "Off", the Sawtooth is a flat
line, and Sigma and Error are zero. If I open up the command monitor, I
can see a bunch of "unrecognized command" errors for "@@Hn". If I change
the timing settings I get one for "@@Gf" too, and the

If you use a serial port monitor, you can see that the response to the
@@Hn and @@Gf messages are actually valid, and the parameters look
reasonable (e.g. actual sawtooth and pulse status values).

Does anyone have a version of WinOncore12 which works correctly with the
M12+T, or know of a way to get this one to behave itself?

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From azelio.boriani at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 12:34:28 2016
From: azelio.boriani at gmail.com (Azelio Boriani)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 18:34:28 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Problems with WinOncore12 2.1X3 and an M12+T
In-Reply-To: <568949FF.70208@philpem.me.uk>
References: <568949FF.70208@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CAPjwOuK7GRoqJEnxYd9ZgAGfDYObfEnB1ihJDLZSr=0284gPuQ@mail.gmail.com>

Try this <http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/Software/WinOncore12.zip>

On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Philip Pemberton <lists at philpem.me.uk> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm currently testing a Motorola M12+T receiver for possible use in a
> GPS-disciplined 10MHz oscillator. At the moment, I'm using WinOncore12
> version 2.1X3 to communicate with it.
>
> Unfortunately this version of WinOncore seems to be unable to decode the
> 12-channel control messages, which means things like the TRAIM status
> don't display -- Pulse Status is always "Off", the Sawtooth is a flat
> line, and Sigma and Error are zero. If I open up the command monitor, I
> can see a bunch of "unrecognized command" errors for "@@Hn". If I change
> the timing settings I get one for "@@Gf" too, and the
>
> If you use a serial port monitor, you can see that the response to the
> @@Hn and @@Gf messages are actually valid, and the parameters look
> reasonable (e.g. actual sawtooth and pulse status values).
>
> Does anyone have a version of WinOncore12 which works correctly with the
> M12+T, or know of a way to get this one to behave itself?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Phil.
> lists at philpem.me.uk
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From azelio.boriani at gmail.com  Sun Jan  3 12:40:12 2016
From: azelio.boriani at gmail.com (Azelio Boriani)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 18:40:12 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Problems with WinOncore12 2.1X3 and an M12+T
In-Reply-To: <CAPjwOuK7GRoqJEnxYd9ZgAGfDYObfEnB1ihJDLZSr=0284gPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <568949FF.70208@philpem.me.uk>
 <CAPjwOuK7GRoqJEnxYd9ZgAGfDYObfEnB1ihJDLZSr=0284gPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjwOuJScjf6ZGS7FuPu+3b3fcDzSKJYF08U0GdsdX+qZx4vQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Or this <http://www.stratfordradiosociety.freeserve.co.uk/WinOncore12_1_2.zip>
Interesting to see that there is a 2.1 version...

On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 6:34 PM, Azelio Boriani <azelio.boriani at gmail.com> wrote:
> Try this <http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/Software/WinOncore12.zip>
>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Philip Pemberton <lists at philpem.me.uk> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm currently testing a Motorola M12+T receiver for possible use in a
>> GPS-disciplined 10MHz oscillator. At the moment, I'm using WinOncore12
>> version 2.1X3 to communicate with it.
>>
>> Unfortunately this version of WinOncore seems to be unable to decode the
>> 12-channel control messages, which means things like the TRAIM status
>> don't display -- Pulse Status is always "Off", the Sawtooth is a flat
>> line, and Sigma and Error are zero. If I open up the command monitor, I
>> can see a bunch of "unrecognized command" errors for "@@Hn". If I change
>> the timing settings I get one for "@@Gf" too, and the
>>
>> If you use a serial port monitor, you can see that the response to the
>> @@Hn and @@Gf messages are actually valid, and the parameters look
>> reasonable (e.g. actual sawtooth and pulse status values).
>>
>> Does anyone have a version of WinOncore12 which works correctly with the
>> M12+T, or know of a way to get this one to behave itself?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --
>> Phil.
>> lists at philpem.me.uk
>> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Sun Jan  3 15:50:22 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 15:50:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Problems with WinOncore12 2.1X3 and an M12+T
Message-ID: <6826c6.fe5dbcb.43bae38e@aol.com>

I'm currently testing a Motorola M12+T receiver for possible use in  a
GPS-disciplined 10MHz oscillator. At the moment, I'm using  WinOncore12
version 2.1X3 to communicate with it.
 
----------------------------
 
Hi Phil
 
All versions of WinOncore are pretty old by now, so you might want to try  
Synergy's SynTac software, which is a Synergy commissioned version of  TAC32.
 
An evaluation copy of the latest version is here.....
 
http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Ite
mid=196
 
The evaluation software expires after 30 days but can be  registered for 
$59 if you find it does what you need.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 12:26:06 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 12:26:06 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com>

As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for 
at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal 
here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
 
I've never seen this before, Anthorn is much closer and has always been a  
stronger signal so I'm quite intrigued, and tempted to wonder whether  
Anthorn is now also transmitting the master signal.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 12:55:28 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 12:55:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <713a0f.1eba0d8e.43bc0c0f@aol.com>

Definitely something unusual going on, overall signal level as monitored on 
 an SDR is significantly lower than normal and seems to have dropped out 
from  time to time, and as of approximately 1750 the master signal is no 
longer  present.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 04/01/2016 17:26:06 GMT Standard Time, GandalfG8 at aol.com 
 writes:

As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for 
at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal 
here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
 
I've never seen this before, Anthorn is much closer and has always been a  
stronger signal so I'm quite intrigued, and tempted to  wonder whether 
Anthorn is now also transmitting the master signal.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Jan  4 13:19:15 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2016 18:19:15 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com>
References: <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <45029.1451931555@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e at aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts writes:

>As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for 
>at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal 
>here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.

Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran trials ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 14:19:29 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:19:29 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <45029.1451931555@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com>
 <45029.1451931555@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAgd+H1f1b9ojBzFp5uXyuH7VuWwaLta6cXzzwvht7=xXg@mail.gmail.com>

I somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
My 2 cents from across the ocean.

The Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that Anthorn
stayed operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years parties
got in the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a transmitter
in some far away place. I know my choice.

They can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be
equal.
On eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one
transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate
running at the same time.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
wrote:

> --------
> In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e at aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts
> writes:
>
> >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for
> >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal
> >here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
>
> Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran
> trials ?
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 14:26:00 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 14:26:00 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>

>As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again 
for 
>at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly  stronger  signal 
>here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.
 
Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran trials 
 ?
 
=================
 
I'm pretty sure now that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers  
crossed it'll be permanent once they finish playing:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 15:01:56 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 15:01:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <71d812.36381d7b.43bc29b4@aol.com>

I'm pretty sure it was Anthorn.
 
It was showing as the Master and Y stations, and the individual signal  
levels as indicated on an FS700 were within 1dB, which would seem a reasonable  
tolerance on equal signal levels given that the FS700 only reports to  the 
nearest 1dB anyway:-)
 
Still just showing Anthorn's "own" signal for now but I'll check again  
during working hours tomorrow.
 
Although I've seen it claimed otherwise I never found anything to  suggest 
Anthorn would be closing down with the other stations anyway so  wasn't 
surprised when it didn't.
I hadn't considered this latest scenario but it does make sense if  they 
intend to keep going for now.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 04/01/2016 19:19:30 GMT Standard Time,  
paulswedb at gmail.com writes:

 
I  somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
My 2  cents from across the ocean.


The  Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that 
Anthorn stayed  operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years 
parties got in  the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a 
transmitter in some  far away place. I know my choice.


They  can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be 
equal.
On  eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one  
transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate running  
at the same time.


Regards
Paul
WB8TSL




On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <_phk at phk.freebsd.dk_ 
(mailto:phk at phk.freebsd.dk) > wrote:

--------
In  message <_576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e at aol.com_ 
(mailto:576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e at aol.com) >,  GandalfG8--- via time-nuts writes:

>As of 1725, 4th January,  Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for
>at least 30  minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger   signal
>here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.

Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up  for their eLoran 
trials ?

--
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX  since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         |  TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD  since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be  explained by incompetence.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- _time-nuts at febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts at febo.com) 
To unsubscribe,  go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and  follow the instructions  there.








From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 15:06:15 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 15:06:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiSbcGmkcUJ1kY22d_DDA9uSK=+guikxvP3D=PYr=iioA@mail.gmail.com>

Nigel
In the US at least for the eastern half of the country the test station has
been on lately for several weeks at a shot. Not exactly the old days but a
great resource besides GPS to check my various references and note offsets
and such using the austrons and SRS.
I would agree 1 db difference is nothing and its the same station.Enjoy it
while you have it.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:26 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again
> for
> >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly  stronger  signal
> >here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.
>
> Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran trials
>  ?
>
> =================
>
> I'm pretty sure now that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers
> crossed it'll be permanent once they finish playing:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon Jan  4 15:18:34 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 15:18:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <71e938.410dd73b.43bc2d99@aol.com>

This could just be wishful thinking but I'm still hoping it might stay  for 
some time yet.
 
The UK General Lighthouse Authorities have been running their eLoran trials 
 since 2007 so perhaps they found sufficient incentive within that time to 
keep  going.
 
Time will tell, but as you suggest I'm just going to enjoy it for as long  
as it lasts or, with a bit of luck, for as long as I do:-)
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 04/01/2016 20:06:16 GMT Standard Time,  
paulswedb at gmail.com writes:

 
Nigel
In  the US at least for the eastern half of the country the test station 
has been  on lately for several weeks at a shot. Not exactly the old days but 
a great  resource besides GPS to check my various references and note 
offsets and such  using the austrons and SRS.
I  would agree 1 db difference is nothing and its the same station.Enjoy it 
while  you have it.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 2:26 PM, GandalfG8--- via  time-nuts 
<_time-nuts at febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts at febo.com) > wrote:

>As  of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again
for
>at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a  slightly  stronger  signal
>here on the west coast of  Scotland than  Anthorn.

Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig  something up for their eLoran  
trials
?

=================

I'm pretty sure now  that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers
crossed it'll be  permanent once they finish  playing:-)

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR

_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- _time-nuts at febo.com_ (mailto:time-nuts at febo.com) 
To unsubscribe,  go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and  follow the instructions  there.








From attila at kinali.ch  Mon Jan  4 16:02:48 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 22:02:48 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] (OT) Looking for a paper from NAV01 (RIN
 International Conference on Navigation)
In-Reply-To: <5687B076.7040904@philpem.me.uk>
References: <5687B076.7040904@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <20160104220248.81de4e3e747929854626cd1b@kinali.ch>

On Sat, 2 Jan 2016 11:11:50 +0000
Philip Pemberton <lists at philpem.me.uk> wrote:

> I've even contacted the RIN, but -- from what they told me -- they don't 
> archive their journals (that's under the remit of Cambridge University 
> Press) or conference proceedings...

That's weird. The RIN website has an explicit conference proceedings download
page:
http://members.rin.org.uk/conferencepapers/conferencepapers.aspx

They list there a special email address conference at rin.org.uk as contact
to ask for access. I don't know what their requirements are but if they
are anything like the Royal Society, then there is a good chance you'll
get access.
 
> This paper is on a commercial LF navigation system called "Datatrak" 
> which I've been researching. I've got a MkII "Locator" receiver on my 
> bench, and I'm trying to build a signal generator which will allow it to 
> power on and locate itself (or rather decode the sythetic signals from 
> the generator into a location).

Interesting. If you get access to the paper, i would be interested in
it as well.

			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Mon Jan  4 16:11:52 2016
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 21:11:52 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat>

If I remember correctly the GLA(Trinity Ho.) has a contact with Babcock who 
run Anthorn which goes through to 2019 or 2020. The notice to mariners did 
not mention Anthorn but it did request that nav. receivers be turned off. If 
TH terminate that contact they will presumably have to pay Babcock anyway so 
they may as well continue "playing". From the papers it would seem the North 
Sea study has been completed.

I am just surprised that, naively, they did not get assurance from the 
French that they would keep Lessay running, because the move to eLoran was 
very much promoted by the French though they did not get a lot of support 
from other European countries.

I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it was a 
"dead duck" and a waste of money.

Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "GandalfG8--- via time-nuts" <time-nuts at febo.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?


> >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting   again
> for
>>at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly  stronger  signal
>>here on the west coast of Scotland than  Anthorn.
>
> Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran 
> trials
> ?
>
> =================
>
> I'm pretty sure now that's exactly what it was, and keeping my fingers
> crossed it'll be permanent once they finish playing:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there. 


From ptdeboer at cs.utwente.nl  Mon Jan  4 19:03:24 2016
From: ptdeboer at cs.utwente.nl (Pieter-Tjerk de Boer)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 01:03:24 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAgd+H1f1b9ojBzFp5uXyuH7VuWwaLta6cXzzwvht7=xXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com>
 <45029.1451931555@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAD2JfAgd+H1f1b9ojBzFp5uXyuH7VuWwaLta6cXzzwvht7=xXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160105000324.GA24281@cs.utwente.nl>


On http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/fullday/ , one can see that the extra
LORAN signal has been on the air roughly from 16:26 till 17:30 UTC: the
waterfall clearly shows that the total received power around 100 kHz was
higher during that time.

One also sees that just _before_ the start of the "extra" signal, the total
power was _lower_ than the "usual" value, implying that Anthorn (which is
now the strongest signal here) was off-air; it seems to have been on the
air only intermittently between 15:00 and 16:26 UTC.

So whatever it was that happened this afternoon, it wasn't just the switch
on of Lessay (if at all), something was (also) going on at Anthorn...
That might be a hint that the extra signal also came from Anthorn, e.g.
a dual-rate test. But this is of course just speculation.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM



On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 02:19:29PM -0500, paul swed wrote:
> I somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
> My 2 cents from across the ocean.
> 
> The Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that Anthorn
> stayed operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years parties
> got in the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a transmitter
> in some far away place. I know my choice.
> 
> They can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be
> equal.
> On eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one
> transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate
> running at the same time.
> 
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
> wrote:
> 
> > --------
> > In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e at aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts
> > writes:
> >
> > >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting  again for
> > >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger  signal
> > >here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
> >
> > Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran
> > trials ?
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Jan  4 20:37:01 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 20:37:01 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <20160105000324.GA24281@cs.utwente.nl>
References: <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com>
 <45029.1451931555@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAD2JfAgd+H1f1b9ojBzFp5uXyuH7VuWwaLta6cXzzwvht7=xXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160105000324.GA24281@cs.utwente.nl>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjVNK-n2nHLbKMD4bFOnSh8otvngJxNwj=hQPoSaT6=5g@mail.gmail.com>

But speculations half the fun.
Interesting chart.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer <ptdeboer at cs.utwente.nl
> wrote:

>
> On http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/fullday/ , one can see that the extra
> LORAN signal has been on the air roughly from 16:26 till 17:30 UTC: the
> waterfall clearly shows that the total received power around 100 kHz was
> higher during that time.
>
> One also sees that just _before_ the start of the "extra" signal, the total
> power was _lower_ than the "usual" value, implying that Anthorn (which is
> now the strongest signal here) was off-air; it seems to have been on the
> air only intermittently between 15:00 and 16:26 UTC.
>
> So whatever it was that happened this afternoon, it wasn't just the switch
> on of Lessay (if at all), something was (also) going on at Anthorn...
> That might be a hint that the extra signal also came from Anthorn, e.g.
> a dual-rate test. But this is of course just speculation.
>
> Regards,
>   Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 02:19:29PM -0500, paul swed wrote:
> > I somewhat may guess its Anthorn.
> > My 2 cents from across the ocean.
> >
> > The Brits are pretty good about shutting things down. The fact that
> Anthorn
> > stayed operational was pretty odd even if you thought the new years
> parties
> > got in the way. Lets face it drink beer with friends or shut a
> transmitter
> > in some far away place. I know my choice.
> >
> > They can easily dual rate Anthorn. But then the signal level should be
> > equal.
> > On eLORAN tests in the US its a Master and the Y station. But its one
> > transmitter. The same transmitter has no problem with some other rate
> > running at the same time.
> >
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > --------
> > > In message <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e at aol.com>, GandalfG8--- via
> time-nuts
> > > writes:
> > >
> > > >As of 1725, 4th January, Lessay seems to have been transmitting
> again for
> > > >at least 30 minutes, and showing the same or a slightly stronger
> signal
> > > >here on the west coast of Scotland than Anthorn.
> > >
> > > Are you sure it's not UK trying to rig something up for their eLoran
> > > trials ?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > > FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jks at jks.com  Mon Jan  4 16:57:28 2016
From: jks at jks.com (John Seamons)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:57:28 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <71e938.410dd73b.43bc2d99@aol.com>
References: <71e938.410dd73b.43bc2d99@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4857E243-B2DB-472A-9B61-C944BEE6F739@jks.com>

On LoranView (http://www.df6nm.bplaced.net/LoranView/LoranGrabber.htm) you can easily see various outages on Anthorn beginning at about 1500Z 4-Jan.


From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Jan  5 03:43:20 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:43:20 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] beaglebone black, debian, NTP client
In-Reply-To: <D4022880950C49EBAAC88C187ADE6695@Alta>
References: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
 <20160101221907.8d78d2135332f4f1e6639187@kinali.ch>
 <D4022880950C49EBAAC88C187ADE6695@Alta>
Message-ID: <20160105094320.a6b82f823b82631192475257@kinali.ch>

On Sat, 2 Jan 2016 11:47:09 -0000
"David J Taylor" <david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm also using PPS with the BBB - you even commented on my Web page!
> 
>   http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/BBB-vs-RPi.html

Yes, I know. But I didn't mention your webpage, because there is something
weird going on with your system. The jitter you are seeing is very high.
And it depends on the load of the OS that seems to have many unnecessary
processes running. Even if you don't use the timer unit, like Dan Drown
did, you shouldn't see a jitter higher than 2-4us on the PPS pin (that's
approximately half the interrupt latency of the BBB including kernel/software
induced latency). But yours goes up to +/-12us, ie is 6-12 times higher.


			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Jan  5 03:58:50 2016
From: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk (David J Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 08:58:50 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjVNK-n2nHLbKMD4bFOnSh8otvngJxNwj=hQPoSaT6=5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <576b98.2a1f5672.43bc052e@aol.com>
 <45029.1451931555@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAD2JfAgd+H1f1b9ojBzFp5uXyuH7VuWwaLta6cXzzwvht7=xXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160105000324.GA24281@cs.utwente.nl>
 <CAD2JfAjVNK-n2nHLbKMD4bFOnSh8otvngJxNwj=hQPoSaT6=5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <625C7F1862C04822B31BC50ADFD15D0B@Alta>

I'm receiving pulses on 100 kHz with AirSpy and a SpyVerter, but I have no 
Windows software to decode the signal and determine just which LORAN it is. 
Can anyone recommend suitable Windows software?

Being located in Edinburgh the signal is reasonable strong.

Thanks,
David
-- 
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


From david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Jan  5 05:37:08 2016
From: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk (David J Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:37:08 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] beaglebone black, debian, NTP client
In-Reply-To: <20160105094320.a6b82f823b82631192475257@kinali.ch>
References: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
 <20160101221907.8d78d2135332f4f1e6639187@kinali.ch>
 <D4022880950C49EBAAC88C187ADE6695@Alta>
 <20160105094320.a6b82f823b82631192475257@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <FB45220631F04F628365799CFCD89B6B@Alta>

On Sat, 2 Jan 2016 11:47:09 -0000
"David J Taylor" <david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm also using PPS with the BBB - you even commented on my Web page!
>
>   http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/BBB-vs-RPi.html

Yes, I know. But I didn't mention your webpage, because there is something
weird going on with your system. The jitter you are seeing is very high.
And it depends on the load of the OS that seems to have many unnecessary
processes running. Even if you don't use the timer unit, like Dan Drown
did, you shouldn't see a jitter higher than 2-4us on the PPS pin (that's
approximately half the interrupt latency of the BBB including 
kernel/software
induced latency). But yours goes up to +/-12us, ie is 6-12 times higher.


Attila Kinali
===============================

Thanks, Attila.  I'm unsure where you are getting the figures from, but the 
graph shows 2.5 µs averaged jitter:

  http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2015-03-21-23-BBB_jitter.png

with the reduced OS, and 2.5 to 4 µs with the fuller OS.  The peak-to-peak 
will higher than those figures, of course.

Cheers,
David
-- 
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Tue Jan  5 07:10:46 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 07:10:46 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <154518.47b8142b.43bd0cc5@aol.com>

The experiment continues.....
 
Earlier today both the Master and Y channels were showing again, then at  
1200 the signal disappeared completely, to be back at 1206 but not long  
enough for the FS700 to lock before it went again.
 
All good fun:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Tue Jan  5 07:36:41 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 07:36:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <155fcb.f6aeb11.43bd12d9@aol.com>

Hi David,
 
I've only used Loran specific hardware receivers for actual decoding,  so 
no doubt others will be better able to answer your question re suitable  
software, but one thing to watch out for is that the stations don't actually  
transmit a named identifier.
 
With all stations transmitting at 100KHz, identification depends on the  
pre-allocated group repetition interval (GRI), with the secondary  stations in 
a particular group being identified by their time relationship  to the 
master.
Purpose made receivers that identify stations by name do so from internally 
 stored data, which is why my FS700s always insist that Anthorn is really 
Loop  Head in Ireland, SRS jumped the gun a bit but never issued an updated 
PROM after  the proposed station at Loop Head didn't go into service:-)
 
It's certainly fun just monitoring today though, both Master and Y  station 
are back at the moment but the modulation's been changing about  enough to 
suggest someone might even be trying to play tunes on  it:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
I'm receiving pulses on 100 kHz with AirSpy and a SpyVerter, but I have no  
Windows software to decode the signal and determine just which LORAN it is. 
 
Can anyone recommend suitable Windows software?
Being located in  Edinburgh the signal is reasonable  strong.
Thanks,
David

From stanw1le at verizon.net  Tue Jan  5 09:53:17 2016
From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 09:53:17 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN Activity in the US
In-Reply-To: <154518.47b8142b.43bd0cc5@aol.com>
References: <154518.47b8142b.43bd0cc5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <568BD8DD.8070309@verizon.net>

Hello The Nets:

currently my receiver is locked and I am tracking the LORAN emitter in 
the US.
Rx is a SRS FS700, Austron LF Multifilter #2084, a pair of orthogonal 
delta loops, and a ARR preamplifier at the antenna.
A deep cycle battery is at the antenna for DC power.

Stan, W1LE    Cape Cod   FN41sr




From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 10:42:54 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:42:54 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN Activity in the US
In-Reply-To: <568BD8DD.8070309@verizon.net>
References: <154518.47b8142b.43bd0cc5@aol.com> <568BD8DD.8070309@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjd6B-zLpRaO2WgbQAMc-X_WZ4M6uYrD3M4jFrXzeN6BA@mail.gmail.com>

Stan,
Yes this is the test I sent the email out on last week and will run to the
15th.
I accidentally put 2015. But that said I am also locked.
Curious why are you using a battery at the antenna??
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:53 AM, Stan W1LE <stanw1le at verizon.net> wrote:

> Hello The Nets:
>
> currently my receiver is locked and I am tracking the LORAN emitter in the
> US.
> Rx is a SRS FS700, Austron LF Multifilter #2084, a pair of orthogonal
> delta loops, and a ARR preamplifier at the antenna.
> A deep cycle battery is at the antenna for DC power.
>
> Stan, W1LE    Cape Cod   FN41sr
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan  5 12:29:05 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 17:29:05 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <155fcb.f6aeb11.43bd12d9@aol.com>
References: <155fcb.f6aeb11.43bd12d9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <46458.1452014945@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------

I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark now.

Same signal strength:

	http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue Jan  5 13:59:07 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 10:59:07 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] KS-24361 off by 45 seconds for 13 minutes,
	end of Jan 01 UTC
Message-ID: <20160105185907.BCB3F406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


Is anybody watching the output of their KS-24361?

Mine was off by 45 seconds for 13 minutes at the end of Jan 01.  I didn't see 
any problems on a Z3801A.

Here is part of ntpd's clockstats.

The second column is the system time - seconds this day.
The 4th column is the data from the KS-24361
The 220160101 is the date.  Following that is HHMMSS.
The <== mark the first and last samples that are off.

57388 85074.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101233755300103E  56 0
57388 85138.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012338593001043  64 0
57388 85202.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012340033001031  52 0
57388 85270.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012341113001031  48 0
57388 85330.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012341263201039  52 0 <==
57388 85394.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012342303201035  52 0
57388 85458.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234334320103A  56 0
57388 85522.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234438320103F  56 0
57388 85586.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234542320103B  52 0
57388 85650.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012346463201040  48 0
57388 85714.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234750320103C  44 0
57388 85778.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012348543201041  56 0
57388 85842.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012349583201046  48 0
57388 85906.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012351023201034  36 0
57388 85970.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012352063201039  52 0
57388 86034.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012353103201035  48 0 <==
57388 86098.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012354593101042  60 0
57388 86166.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235607310103D  56 0
57388 86226.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235707310103E  56 0
57388 86290.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235811310103A  52 0
57388 86354.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235915310103F  48 0


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Tue Jan  5 13:50:18 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:50:18 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <50570a.cc0bf48.43bd6a6a@aol.com>

Yes, they've been switching back and forth between one or two channels  all 
day, with the one channel state always being just the usual Anthorn Y  
channel and the two channels always being Master plus the Y  channel.
Sometimes the overall signal levels have been fluctuating quite a bit  at 
100 Miles from Anthorn, more so than usual, and when in the  two channel 
state both channels have always been at the same signal  level, although on a 
few occasions the signal has shut down  altogether for several minutes at a 
time.
 
As it's now nearly 1850, and still transmitting Master and slave  rather 
than reverting to just the slave as it did at the end of the day  yesterday, 
I'm even more encouraged to hope this might become the norm for some  time at 
least.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
In a message dated 05/01/2016 17:29:11 GMT Standard Time,  
phk at phk.freebsd.dk writes:

--------

I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark  now.

Same signal strength:

http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp     | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG     | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer     | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice  what can adequately be explained by  
incompetence.


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 13:57:30 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 13:57:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <155fcb.f6aeb11.43bd12d9@aol.com>
References: <155fcb.f6aeb11.43bd12d9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAh27TROAp8QvqaM-DNnb18rdFPi8+yY643uBcqmsgX_tQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well this is indeed a good new year.
It would appear that Anthorn will be active for a year to 2017.
It will be dual rated as a master and slave same sight. Much like the US.
The ups and downs you are seeing are the process to dual rate the Master.
Should settle out soon as Master and Y.
So It would appear that at least one country sees the value in an alternate
time and frequency distribution method. Hats off to the UK.

OK now I may have to go back to building the 10' square loop. Do a bit of
eLORAN DX.

Enjoy
Paul
WB8TSL


On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 7:36 AM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> I've only used Loran specific hardware receivers for actual decoding,  so
> no doubt others will be better able to answer your question re suitable
> software, but one thing to watch out for is that the stations don't
> actually
> transmit a named identifier.
>
> With all stations transmitting at 100KHz, identification depends on the
> pre-allocated group repetition interval (GRI), with the secondary
> stations in
> a particular group being identified by their time relationship  to the
> master.
> Purpose made receivers that identify stations by name do so from internally
>  stored data, which is why my FS700s always insist that Anthorn is really
> Loop  Head in Ireland, SRS jumped the gun a bit but never issued an updated
> PROM after  the proposed station at Loop Head didn't go into service:-)
>
> It's certainly fun just monitoring today though, both Master and Y  station
> are back at the moment but the modulation's been changing about  enough to
> suggest someone might even be trying to play tunes on  it:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
> I'm receiving pulses on 100 kHz with AirSpy and a SpyVerter, but I have no
> Windows software to decode the signal and determine just which LORAN it is.
>
> Can anyone recommend suitable Windows software?
> Being located in  Edinburgh the signal is reasonable  strong.
> Thanks,
> David
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 14:19:57 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 14:19:57 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] KS-24361 off by 45 seconds for 13 minutes,
 end of Jan 01 UTC
In-Reply-To: <20160105185907.BCB3F406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20160105185907.BCB3F406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAj10P_=arWvDTmqknQHn_tOaun-KSyh+qjShBkmeX6vtA@mail.gmail.com>

I know little others will correct. But that would appear to be atomic time
not UTC.
Thats what jumps out to me at least.
Regards
Paul

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:

>
> Is anybody watching the output of their KS-24361?
>
> Mine was off by 45 seconds for 13 minutes at the end of Jan 01.  I didn't
> see
> any problems on a Z3801A.
>
> Here is part of ntpd's clockstats.
>
> The second column is the system time - seconds this day.
> The 4th column is the data from the KS-24361
> The 220160101 is the date.  Following that is HHMMSS.
> The <== mark the first and last samples that are off.
>
> 57388 85074.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101233755300103E  56 0
> 57388 85138.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012338593001043  64 0
> 57388 85202.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012340033001031  52 0
> 57388 85270.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012341113001031  48 0
> 57388 85330.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012341263201039  52 0 <==
> 57388 85394.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012342303201035  52 0
> 57388 85458.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234334320103A  56 0
> 57388 85522.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234438320103F  56 0
> 57388 85586.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234542320103B  52 0
> 57388 85650.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012346463201040  48 0
> 57388 85714.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234750320103C  44 0
> 57388 85778.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012348543201041  56 0
> 57388 85842.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012349583201046  48 0
> 57388 85906.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012351023201034  36 0
> 57388 85970.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012352063201039  52 0
> 57388 86034.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012353103201035  48 0 <==
> 57388 86098.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012354593101042  60 0
> 57388 86166.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235607310103D  56 0
> 57388 86226.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235707310103E  56 0
> 57388 86290.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235811310103A  52 0
> 57388 86354.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101235915310103F  48 0
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan  5 14:56:33 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 19:56:33 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
Message-ID: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>

My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.

Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.

Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?

What am I overlooking ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue Jan  5 15:07:17 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 20:07:17 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the traditional mixer.
Bruce 

    On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
 

 My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.

Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.

Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?

What am I overlooking ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue Jan  5 15:19:13 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 20:19:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <813118053.563711.1452025153407.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit project.Apart from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With care in the design the jitter should be sub picosecond.
Bruce
 

    On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
 

 My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.

Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.

Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?

What am I overlooking ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 15:17:38 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:17:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAhperEkfSTG5c2U8waGkv0kY3mcbdz8w1+4J+OOaaLb2w@mail.gmail.com>

Poul-Henning,
I have some guesses but I look forward to others.
I think the analog multipliers are complicated in pins and support
circuitry especially if single power supply.
I used lower frequency Analog Devices units in early experimentation on the
wwvb d-psk-r.
Granted they worked. They were also pricey. But thats relative.
They can deliver gain as compared to a mixer and thats a plus.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
wrote:

> My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
> my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>
> Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
> and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>
> Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>
> What am I overlooking ?
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bob at evoria.net  Tue Jan  5 16:33:06 2016
From: bob at evoria.net (Bob Stewart)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 21:33:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <813118053.563711.1452025153407.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <813118053.563711.1452025153407.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1611148627.574551.1452029586333.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Bruce,
Thanks a LOT for your response to Poul's query!  I've been searching for DMTD info for a few some time now, and I haven't come up with a lot.  Searching for "CERN White Rabbit" got me more in a few minutes than I've found in months.  Like Poul, I've become interested in building a DMTD to overcome the limitations of my 5370A, but I haven't had time to actually do anything about it yet.

Bob




      From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> 
 Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 2:19 PM
 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
   
You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit project.Apart from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With care in the design the jitter should be sub picosecond.
Bruce
 

    On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
 

 My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.

Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.

Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?

What am I overlooking ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp      | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG        | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer      | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan  5 16:37:51 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 21:37:51 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAhperEkfSTG5c2U8waGkv0kY3mcbdz8w1+4J+OOaaLb2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAD2JfAhperEkfSTG5c2U8waGkv0kY3mcbdz8w1+4J+OOaaLb2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47479.1452029871@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAD2JfAhperEkfSTG5c2U8waGkv0kY3mcbdz8w1+4J+OOaaLb2w at mail.gmail.com>, paul swed writes:

>I think the analog multipliers are complicated in pins and support
>circuitry especially if single power supply.

The AD835 is 8-pins and as easy as they come I think.

Not needing isolation amps seems like a plus to me.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan  5 16:37:00 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 21:37:00 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>, Bruce Griffiths writes:

>The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the traditional mixer.

Yes, but does that really matter in this case ?

The interesting output will be coming out of a LPF so
most of the noise will die there?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Jan  5 16:41:16 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 22:41:16 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <813118053.563711.1452025153407.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <813118053.563711.1452025153407.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <568C387C.7010206@rubidium.dyndns.org>

With some sine-to-square conversion as signal conditioning, not too hard 
these days, this could be a relatively straight forward approach.
CERN already have digital clocks, so the DDMTD approach fits them well.

For normal mixers you want to signal condition the signal prior to the 
mixers, and then signal-condition the beat notes too.

For DDMTD you do the same, but you do the post mister conditioning in 
the digital domain.

I have always assumed that signal-to-noise have been the main difference 
between the Gilbert cell multiplies vs. diode mixers.

Cheer1s,
Magnus

On 01/05/2016 09:19 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit project.Apart from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With care in the design the jitter should be sub picosecond.
> Bruce
>
>
>      On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
>
>   My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
> my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>
> Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
> and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>
> Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>
> What am I overlooking ?
>

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Jan  5 16:46:38 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 22:46:38 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] beaglebone black, debian, NTP client
In-Reply-To: <FB45220631F04F628365799CFCD89B6B@Alta>
References: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
 <20160101221907.8d78d2135332f4f1e6639187@kinali.ch>
 <D4022880950C49EBAAC88C187ADE6695@Alta>
 <20160105094320.a6b82f823b82631192475257@kinali.ch>
 <FB45220631F04F628365799CFCD89B6B@Alta>
Message-ID: <20160105224638.77e0c436b87e82c66fe4347e@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 10:37:08 -0000
"David J Taylor" <david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> hanks, Attila.  I'm unsure where you are getting the figures from, but the 
> graph shows 2.5 µs averaged jitter:
> 
>   http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2015-03-21-23-BBB_jitter.png
> 
> with the reduced OS, and 2.5 to 4 µs with the fuller OS.  The peak-to-peak 
> will higher than those figures, of course.

That's one thing that annoys me with those graphs. If you average jitter
it loses its meaning. What you then get is the mean deviation (aka offset).
Without an accompanying standard deviation (and a test that you actually
have a gausian distribution) this value is not worth much.

What I am talking about is 
http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2015-03-21-23-BBB_offset.png

The before ("full" OS) and after ("console" OS) is strange by itself.
What kind of process is running that increases interrupt latency jitter
by a factor of 2-3? Why does the "console" OS still exhibit a jitter that
is a factor 2 to 3 higher than what i'd expect as interrupt jitter?


			Attila Kinali

PS: could you please quote mails properly? It makes them much easier to read.
http://pub.tsn.dk/how-to-quote.php

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From djl at montana.com  Tue Jan  5 17:22:41 2016
From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:22:41 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <568C387C.7010206@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <813118053.563711.1452025153407.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568C387C.7010206@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <eb6ecc549041ffdcc03c6f482725980f.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>

Mini-circuits has packaged phase detectors plug-in, surface, and with
connectors for $20 TO $70. Diode bridges with transformers. They also have
cheap wideband amps. Bet a simple DDMTD could be built with these? I know...I
wish I did have the time at present.
Happy New Year!
Don

Magnus Danielson
> With some sine-to-square conversion as signal conditioning, not too hard
> these days, this could be a relatively straight forward approach.
> CERN already have digital clocks, so the DDMTD approach fits them well.
>
> For normal mixers you want to signal condition the signal prior to the
> mixers, and then signal-condition the beat notes too.
>
> For DDMTD you do the same, but you do the post mister conditioning in
> the digital domain.
>
> I have always assumed that signal-to-noise have been the main difference
> between the Gilbert cell multiplies vs. diode mixers.
>
> Cheer1s,
> Magnus
>
> On 01/05/2016 09:19 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>> You could also consider a DDMTD as useed in CERN's White rabbit
>> project.Apart from the sine to logic level conversion its all digital. With
>> care in the design the jitter should be sub picosecond.
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>      On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp
>> <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>   My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
>> my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>>
>> Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
>> and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>>
>> Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>>
>> What am I overlooking ?
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
-------------------------------
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue Jan  5 17:36:57 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2016 11:36:57 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <2230905.nSGjkdsmpb@linux>

On Tuesday, January 05, 2016 09:37:00 PM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> 
> In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>, 
Bruce Griffiths writes:
> >The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of
> >the traditional mixer.
> Yes, but does that really matter in this case ?
> 
> The interesting output will be coming out of a LPF so
> most of the noise will die there?/

Yes I believe it does as the mixer multiplier noise sets a lower limit to the 
beat frequency jitter.
If only the noise from the 2 mixers were correlated then the jitter 
contribution from this would largely cancel out as does the noisee 
contribution of the offset oscillator.

Bruce

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Jan  5 17:42:01 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 23:42:01 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <568C46B9.4020303@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Poul-Henning,

On 01/05/2016 10:37 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>, Bruce Griffiths writes:
>
>> The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the traditional mixer.
>
> Yes, but does that really matter in this case ?
>
> The interesting output will be coming out of a LPF so
> most of the noise will die there?
>

You still raise the noise-level which is in the pass-band of those 
filters. This will be true both for white noise and flicker noise.
The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to 
jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the 
trigger-circuit. To reduce this effect, we amplify up the signal in 
steps, with higher and higher bandwidth to balance noise contribution 
with slew-rate incrementation. Using noisy mixers rather than quieter 
mixers makes this more worthwhile. The diode mixers needed does not have 
to be very rare, just look at the 2N2222A based mixer out of NIST, 
actually being a Harris chip with four transistors and a pair of off the 
shelf transformers.

Yes, I've played with this, ran into the issues.
Tried to build a DTMD, but didn't manage to handle some problems before 
it got side-tracked.

As always, choosing the trigg-point to have the highest slew-rate have 
always been key to reducing timing jitter.k Turns out that most counters 
isn't optimized for this property.

Cheers,
Magnus

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Tue Jan  5 17:55:19 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 17:55:19 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20160106015524.tOXmTMxf@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>

Poul-Henning wrote:

>My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
>my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>
>Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
>and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>
>Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>
>What am I overlooking ?

You could have mentioned any of dozens of popular analog multipliers, 
and the answer would have been, "because they are way too 
noisy."  The AD835 is also substantially noisier than diode mixers, 
but it at least begins to bridge the gap.  The folks at CERN have 
been improving phase detector S/N by averaging the output of several 
AD835s for the TPMON project, with promising results.  There is a 
preliminary report in "EUROTeV Report 2006-005-1."

See also:

RF-based electron beam timing measurement with sub-10fs resolution, 
A. Andersson and J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (EUROTeV Report 2008-015) 
[phase detector with 8x AD835 analog multipliers].

ANDERSSON, A. and SLADEN, J. P. H.: "First tests of a precision beam 
phase measurement system in CTF3" (Proc. PAC07).

"PRECISION BEAM TIMING MEASUREMENT SYSTEM FOR CLIC SYNCHRONIZATION," 
A. Andersson, J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (Proceedings of EPAC 2006).

Best regards,

Charles



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue Jan  5 17:42:04 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 14:42:04 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] KS-24361 off by 45 seconds for 13 minutes,
 end of  Jan 01 UTC
In-Reply-To: Message from paul swed <paulswedb@gmail.com> of "Tue,
 05 Jan 2016 14:19:57 EST."
 <CAD2JfAj10P_=arWvDTmqknQHn_tOaun-KSyh+qjShBkmeX6vtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160105224204.BC6AC406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


paulswedb at gmail.com said:
> I know little others will correct. But that would appear to be atomic time 

The current UTC-TAI offset is 36 seconds.  GPS is 19 seconds closer to TAI.

I can't see a way to get 45 out of that.  Is there some other time system 
that's (currently) 45 seconds off UTC?



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue Jan  5 18:08:14 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 23:08:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160106015524.tOXmTMxf@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>
References: <20160106015524.tOXmTMxf@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <1852152169.629496.1452035295156.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

You mean DMTD =  dual mixer time differencenotDDMTD = Digital dual mixer timer difference.The latter uses a pair of synchronisers / shift registers instead of a pair of mixers.
Bruce
 

    On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 12:03 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:
 

 Poul-Henning wrote:

>My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
>my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>
>Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
>and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>
>Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>
>What am I overlooking ?

You could have mentioned any of dozens of popular analog multipliers, 
and the answer would have been, "because they are way too 
noisy."  The AD835 is also substantially noisier than diode mixers, 
but it at least begins to bridge the gap.  The folks at CERN have 
been improving phase detector S/N by averaging the output of several 
AD835s for the TPMON project, with promising results.  There is a 
preliminary report in "EUROTeV Report 2006-005-1."

See also:

RF-based electron beam timing measurement with sub-10fs resolution, 
A. Andersson and J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (EUROTeV Report 2008-015) 
[phase detector with 8x AD835 analog multipliers].

ANDERSSON, A. and SLADEN, J. P. H.: "First tests of a precision beam 
phase measurement system in CTF3" (Proc. PAC07).

"PRECISION BEAM TIMING MEASUREMENT SYSTEM FOR CLIC SYNCHRONIZATION," 
A. Andersson, J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (Proceedings of EPAC 2006).

Best regards,

Charles


_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan  5 18:28:10 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 23:28:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <568C46B9.4020303@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk> <568C46B9.4020303@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <47794.1452036490@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <568C46B9.4020303 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:

>The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to 
>jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the 
>trigger-circuit.

Digitize the LPF output and do a curve-fit to find the zero-crossings ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Jan  5 18:58:01 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 00:58:01 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <47794.1452036490@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk> <568C46B9.4020303@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <47794.1452036490@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <568C5889.6040304@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi Poul-Henning,

On 01/06/2016 12:28 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <568C46B9.4020303 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>
>> The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to
>> jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the
>> trigger-circuit.
>
> Digitize the LPF output and do a curve-fit to find the zero-crossings ?
>

That would work. You could least-square fit it with very cheap 
processing. The LPF would mainly need to reject the sum frequencies to 
act as anti-aliasing filter, and the noise would be filtered out by the 
least-square processing.

Estimating the phase and slew-rate, and then use those to calculate the 
actual through-zero phase would not be too hard. As a consequence you 
get a slew-rate monitor, which act as an observation of signal level.

Cheers,
Magnus

From Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca  Tue Jan  5 19:16:27 2016
From: Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca (Brian Inglis)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:16:27 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] KS-24361 off by 45 seconds for 13 minutes,
 end of Jan 01 UTC
In-Reply-To: <20160105185907.BCB3F406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20160105185907.BCB3F406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <568C5CDB.3090402@SystematicSw.ab.ca>

On 2016-01-05 11:59, Hal Murray wrote:
> Is anybody watching the output of their KS-24361?
> Mine was off by 45 seconds for 13 minutes at the end of Jan 01.  I didn't see
> any problems on a Z3801A.

Receiver time output may have been delayed while receiving an almanac update at the end of the UTC day?
Almanac takes about 12.5 minutes to transmit, which would jive with ~13 minutes.
Clockstats should output the last message received about once per poll period - is minpoll 6?

TFOM byte after time stayed the same at 3 => < 1us uncertainty if same as Z3801A;
FFOM two bytes after time went from 0 to 2 so the PLL unlocked and went into holdover,
and at the end of that period went to 1 so stabilizing; presumably got back to 0 later.
The following Leap, Request for Service, and Valid bytes did not change.
Assumptions are that operation and status are the same as for HP Smart Clocks.

> Here is part of ntpd's clockstats.
>
> The second column is the system time - seconds this day.
> The 4th column is the data from the KS-24361
> The 220160101 is the date.  Following that is HHMMSS.
> The <== mark the first and last samples that are off.

> 57388 85270.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012341113001031  48 0
> 57388 85330.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012341263201039  52 0 <==
> 57388 85394.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012342303201035  52 0
> 57388 85458.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234334320103A  56 0
> 57388 85522.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234438320103F  56 0
> 57388 85586.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234542320103B  52 0
> 57388 85650.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012346463201040  48 0
> 57388 85714.045 127.127.26.0 T220160101234750320103C  44 0
> 57388 85778.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012348543201041  56 0
> 57388 85842.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012349583201046  48 0
> 57388 85906.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012351023201034  36 0
> 57388 85970.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012352063201039  52 0
> 57388 86034.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012353103201035  48 0 <==
> 57388 86098.045 127.127.26.0 T2201601012354593101042  60 0

-- 
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Jan  5 20:35:46 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 20:35:46 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <568C5889.6040304@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <47467.1452029820@critter.freebsd.dk> <568C46B9.4020303@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <47794.1452036490@critter.freebsd.dk> <568C5889.6040304@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <24246673-9EA4-4CC0-A384-209A3B92BE72@n1k.org>

Hi

Ok, so what needs to be done with the output of the mixer (no matter how you do it)?

Assume you start from 10 MHz and head down to 10 Hz. 

Assume you are mad at your 5370 and want significantly better performance.

Where does that get you?

The 5370 already is in the ~ 20 ps range. A lot depends on your definitions and 
how good your sample is running. Let’s call that 2x10^-11 at tau = 1 second. You
could indeed call it a couple of other things as well. 

Simply moving up a decade with a whole bunch of gear and it’s limitations seems like
a waste. To me you want to go for 1 to 2x10^-13 as your target. It is an achievable target
and there are a number of papers that validate it as a reasonable DMTD target. 

You get a 1x10^6 “amplification due to your down mix from 10 MHz to 10 Hz. You then 
need another 1x10^7 to get you to your target. All errors from everything included, you need to 
work out the location of the zero crossings to within 100 ns. 

The practical examples of doing it include some fairly tight lowpass filtering as well as high 
pass filtering ahead of the detection process. I have never seen it done without this filtering 
as part of the setup. There is just to much noise at the detector otherwise. Most systems
have something like a 15 Hz lowpass and a 5 Hz high pass for a 10 Hz note. 

With fairly good diode ring phase detectors and a less than perfect (not 25 stage Collins style)
analog limiter, you can indeed get to the target.

Doing it digitally assumes you have a pretty good clock and sampler. If you look at it as a 
3V p-p triangle waveform at 10 Hz, you have a 60V / second slew rate. (a 1 V p-p sine wave
is pretty close to the same number). You need to filter that at 15 Hz and then resolve it to about
6 uV at the zero crossing. You can either keep a high sample rate and make your filter a 
major nightmare or you can decimate ahead of the filter and turn the resolver into a headache. 
Either way, there is some work to be done. 

A couple of op-amp packages is about all it takes to do the limiter with the analog approach ….

Bob 




> On Jan 5, 2016, at 6:58 PM, Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Poul-Henning,
> 
> On 01/06/2016 12:28 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> --------
>> In message <568C46B9.4020303 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>> 
>>> The white noise will be particularly annoying as it then converts to
>>> jitter through the slew-rate limitation as you go into the
>>> trigger-circuit.
>> 
>> Digitize the LPF output and do a curve-fit to find the zero-crossings ?
>> 
> 
> That would work. You could least-square fit it with very cheap processing. The LPF would mainly need to reject the sum frequencies to act as anti-aliasing filter, and the noise would be filtered out by the least-square processing.
> 
> Estimating the phase and slew-rate, and then use those to calculate the actual through-zero phase would not be too hard. As a consequence you get a slew-rate monitor, which act as an observation of signal level.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Tue Jan  5 21:26:14 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2016 21:26:14 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <1852152169.629496.1452035295156.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo. com>
References: <20160106015524.tOXmTMxf@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>
 <1852152169.629496.1452035295156.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160106053213.WDRidCmV@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>

Bruce wrote:

>You mean DMTD =  dual mixer time differencenotDDMTD = Digital dual 
>mixer timer difference.The latter uses a pair of synchronisers / 
>shift registers instead of a pair of mixers.

I don't see how your comment is relevant to my post -- I did not 
mention either DMTDs or DDMTDs.  I only noted that the AD835 is 
noisier than a diode mixer, although not as noisy as many analog 
multipliers -- and that some noise improvement has been demonstrated 
by using parallel multipliers.

Charles



>On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 12:03 PM, Charles Steinmetz 
><csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:
>
>
>  Poul-Henning wrote:
>
> >My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
> >my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
> >
> >Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
> >and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
> >
> >Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
> >
> >What am I overlooking ?
>
>You could have mentioned any of dozens of popular analog multipliers,
>and the answer would have been, "because they are way too
>noisy."  The AD835 is also substantially noisier than diode mixers,
>but it at least begins to bridge the gap.  The folks at CERN have
>been improving phase detector S/N by averaging the output of several
>AD835s for the TPMON project, with promising results.  There is a
>preliminary report in "EUROTeV Report 2006-005-1."
>
>See also:
>
>RF-based electron beam timing measurement with sub-10fs resolution,
>A. Andersson and J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (EUROTeV Report 2008-015)
>[phase detector with 8x AD835 analog multipliers].
>
>ANDERSSON, A. and SLADEN, J. P. H.: "First tests of a precision beam
>phase measurement system in CTF3" (Proc. PAC07).
>
>"PRECISION BEAM TIMING MEASUREMENT SYSTEM FOR CLIC SYNCHRONIZATION,"
>A. Andersson, J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (Proceedings of EPAC 2006).
>
>Best regards,
>
>Charles


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 14:22:21 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 14:22:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <46458.1452014945@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <155fcb.f6aeb11.43bd12d9@aol.com>
 <46458.1452014945@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAizcFzCbw+ackAX21rcyFtuT7DBxTwyn5i6Wcv_ykjh_g@mail.gmail.com>

Right but they are both the same station.
Note the levels are pretty much the same.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 12:29 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
wrote:

> --------
>
> I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark now.
>
> Same signal strength:
>
>         http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan  5 15:03:34 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:03:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <50570a.cc0bf48.43bd6a6a@aol.com>
References: <50570a.cc0bf48.43bd6a6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiJJg5e6Jnm3N53Dp2fUqA4neUCCWXtU+v9OwnEKD8Erw@mail.gmail.com>

The norm right now is 1 year. Enjoy while you can.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:50 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Yes, they've been switching back and forth between one or two channels  all
> day, with the one channel state always being just the usual Anthorn Y
> channel and the two channels always being Master plus the Y  channel.
> Sometimes the overall signal levels have been fluctuating quite a bit  at
> 100 Miles from Anthorn, more so than usual, and when in the  two channel
> state both channels have always been at the same signal  level, although
> on a
> few occasions the signal has shut down  altogether for several minutes at a
> time.
>
> As it's now nearly 1850, and still transmitting Master and slave  rather
> than reverting to just the slave as it did at the end of the day
> yesterday,
> I'm even more encouraged to hope this might become the norm for some  time
> at
> least.
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> GM8PZR
>
>
> In a message dated 05/01/2016 17:29:11 GMT Standard Time,
> phk at phk.freebsd.dk writes:
>
> --------
>
> I see both a master and slave on 6731 from Denmark  now.
>
> Same signal strength:
>
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/_.svg
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp     | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG     | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer     | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice  what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From engineering at mt.net  Tue Jan  5 22:43:20 2016
From: engineering at mt.net (Gregory Muir)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 20:43:20 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] CTS 1960017 OCXO
Message-ID: <663DF852A652450B868C3B264BC923F8@D32K5JC1>

There seems to be a plethora of the CTS 1960017 OCXOs on eBay at the moment.  Would anyone have any stability specs on this device?

Greg

From david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Jan  6 04:57:14 2016
From: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk (David J Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 09:57:14 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] beaglebone black, debian, NTP client
In-Reply-To: <20160105224638.77e0c436b87e82c66fe4347e@kinali.ch>
References: <5685D60C.30904@earthlink.net>
 <20160101221907.8d78d2135332f4f1e6639187@kinali.ch>
 <D4022880950C49EBAAC88C187ADE6695@Alta>
 <20160105094320.a6b82f823b82631192475257@kinali.ch>
 <FB45220631F04F628365799CFCD89B6B@Alta>
 <20160105224638.77e0c436b87e82c66fe4347e@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <A4B8BCF44BCA4F188B07DAA2D1BB6570@Alta>

That's one thing that annoys me with those graphs. If you average jitter
it loses its meaning. What you then get is the mean deviation (aka offset).
Without an accompanying standard deviation (and a test that you actually
have a gausian distribution) this value is not worth much.

What I am talking about is
http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2015-03-21-23-BBB_offset.png

The before ("full" OS) and after ("console" OS) is strange by itself.
What kind of process is running that increases interrupt latency jitter
by a factor of 2-3? Why does the "console" OS still exhibit a jitter that
is a factor 2 to 3 higher than what i'd expect as interrupt jitter?


Attila Kinali

PS: could you please quote mails properly? It makes them much easier to 
read.
http://pub.tsn.dk/how-to-quote.php
==========================================

Attila,

The jitter is not averaged, and the RMS value is given in:
  http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/2015-03-21-23-BBB_offset.png

The Console BBB OS was recommended here.  Likely the two were:

Full:  bone-debian-7.8-lxde-4gb-armhf-2015-03-01-4gb.img

Console: bone-debian-7.8-console-armhf-2015-03-01-2gb.img

The GPS has a jitter well under a a tenth of a microsecond, so someone else 
will need to investigate why the jitter does not meet you expected levels, 
as I have abandoned the BBB as it created too much RF interference, and has 
far less support than the Raspberry Pi.  Timekeeping on the RPi is quite 
good enough for my purposes.

Unfortunately, my e-mail software makes it very difficult to do proper 
quoting.  I always do correct quoting with NNTP using Thunderbird, but I'm 
unwilling to start putting chevrons at the start of every quoted line in 
e-mail with my inferior e-mail software.  Perhaps one day I'll change e-mail 
software - it annoys me as well.  At least it doesn't top-post, or use HTML!

Cheers,
David
-- 
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jan  6 06:36:16 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 00:36:16 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160106053213.WDRidCmV@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>
References: <20160106015524.tOXmTMxf@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>
 <1852152169.629496.1452035295156.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160106053213.WDRidCmV@smtp17.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <2241271.LZXbkzBM7f@linux>

Sorry I was under the impression I was replying to Don's post.
Sometimes my Windows machine seems to mess up the part of the thread to which 
I thought I was replying.
My Linux box doesn't seem to have this problem.

Bruce

On Tuesday, January 05, 2016 09:26:14 PM Charles Steinmetz wrote:
> Bruce wrote:
> >You mean DMTD =  dual mixer time differencenotDDMTD = Digital dual
> >mixer timer difference.The latter uses a pair of synchronisers /
> >shift registers instead of a pair of mixers.
> 
> I don't see how your comment is relevant to my post -- I did not
> mention either DMTDs or DDMTDs.  I only noted that the AD835 is
> noisier than a diode mixer, although not as noisy as many analog
> multipliers -- and that some noise improvement has been demonstrated
> by using parallel multipliers.
> 
> Charles
> 
> >On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 12:03 PM, Charles Steinmetz
> >
> ><csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:
> >  Poul-Henning wrote:
> > >My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
> > >my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
> > >
> > >Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
> > >and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
> > >
> > >Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
> > >
> > >What am I overlooking ?
> >
> >You could have mentioned any of dozens of popular analog multipliers,
> >and the answer would have been, "because they are way too
> >noisy."  The AD835 is also substantially noisier than diode mixers,
> >but it at least begins to bridge the gap.  The folks at CERN have
> >been improving phase detector S/N by averaging the output of several
> >AD835s for the TPMON project, with promising results.  There is a
> >preliminary report in "EUROTeV Report 2006-005-1."
> >
> >See also:
> >
> >RF-based electron beam timing measurement with sub-10fs resolution,
> >A. Andersson and J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (EUROTeV Report 2008-015)
> >[phase detector with 8x AD835 analog multipliers].
> >
> >ANDERSSON, A. and SLADEN, J. P. H.: "First tests of a precision beam
> >phase measurement system in CTF3" (Proc. PAC07).
> >
> >"PRECISION BEAM TIMING MEASUREMENT SYSTEM FOR CLIC SYNCHRONIZATION,"
> >A. Andersson, J. P. H. Sladen, CERN (Proceedings of EPAC 2006).
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Charles
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the
> instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan  6 07:15:28 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 07:15:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] CTS 1960017 OCXO
In-Reply-To: <663DF852A652450B868C3B264BC923F8@D32K5JC1>
References: <663DF852A652450B868C3B264BC923F8@D32K5JC1>
Message-ID: <0C869593-985A-4307-8960-39E6BAD86A62@n1k.org>

Hi

According to the CTS web site, this:

http://www.ctscorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/OCXO196.pdf

has the basic specs on it. The seller mentions that it’s a 5V supply 
and sine wave output unit. 

Bob

> On Jan 5, 2016, at 10:43 PM, Gregory Muir <engineering at mt.net> wrote:
> 
> There seems to be a plethora of the CTS 1960017 OCXOs on eBay at the moment.  Would anyone have any stability specs on this device?
> 
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From tshoppa at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 07:25:23 2016
From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 07:25:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] CTS 1960017 OCXO
In-Reply-To: <663DF852A652450B868C3B264BC923F8@D32K5JC1>
References: <663DF852A652450B868C3B264BC923F8@D32K5JC1>
Message-ID: <CAJ_qRvbveUH_Gy8Mf0o0xij8tPhOF-eS5K6pEy5FGauq0msEKA@mail.gmail.com>

Broad parameters for CTS 196 series OCXO data:
http://www.wellking.com/default/doc/cts/%E9%A2%91%E7%8E%87%E6%8E%A7%E5%88%B6%E4%BA%A7%E5%93%81/%E6%81%92%E6%B8%A9%E5%9E%8B%E6%99%B6%E6%8C%AF/196.pdf

Frequency Stability Initial Calibration
∆f/fNOM; TA=25°C; at time of shipment @ 0.5 X Vc - - ± 200 ppb
 -10° to 70°C; ref. 25°C (Option A) - ±5 ±10 ppb
 vs Temperature -40° to 85°C; ref. 25°C (Option B) - ±10 ±20 ppb
vs Supply Voltage ± 5% - - ± 5 ppb
vs Load ± 10% - - ± 1 ppb
at time of shipment - - ± 1 ppb/day
Aging first year - - ± 100 ppb/year
Short Term Stability In Still Air @ 0.1 sec tau - - 0.01 ppb
 Allan Deviation In Still Air @ 1.0 sec tau - - 0.01 ppb
Warm-Up Time TA=25°C; to within 50ppb of freq. @ 30 min - - 4 minutes

Phase Noise (Typical for 10 MHz)
 1 Hz - -90 - dBc/Hz
 10 Hz - -125 - dBc/Hz
 100 Hz - -140 - dBc/Hz
 1 kHz - -150 - dBc/Hz
 10 kHz - -155 - dBc/Hz

EFC Tuning range: +/- 0.7 ppm

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Gregory Muir <engineering at mt.net> wrote:

> There seems to be a plethora of the CTS 1960017 OCXOs on eBay at the
> moment.  Would anyone have any stability specs on this device?
>
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From iain at g7iii.net  Wed Jan  6 08:23:43 2016
From: iain at g7iii.net (Iain Young)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2016 13:23:43 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAiJJg5e6Jnm3N53Dp2fUqA4neUCCWXtU+v9OwnEKD8Erw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <50570a.cc0bf48.43bd6a6a@aol.com>
 <CAD2JfAiJJg5e6Jnm3N53Dp2fUqA4neUCCWXtU+v9OwnEKD8Erw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <568D155F.7070605@g7iii.net>

Hi All,

On 05/01/16 20:03, paul swed wrote:
> The norm right now is 1 year. Enjoy while you can.
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:50 PM, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, they've been switching back and forth between one or two channels  all
>> day, with the one channel state always being just the usual Anthorn Y
>> channel and the two channels always being Master plus the Y  channel.
>> Sometimes the overall signal levels have been fluctuating quite a bit  at
>> 100 Miles from Anthorn, more so than usual, and when in the  two channel
>> state both channels have always been at the same signal  level, although
>> on a
>> few occasions the signal has shut down  altogether for several minutes at a
>> time.
>>
>> As it's now nearly 1850, and still transmitting Master and slave  rather
>> than reverting to just the slave as it did at the end of the day
>> yesterday,
>> I'm even more encouraged to hope this might become the norm for some  time
>> at
>> least.
>>

I happen to receive the "GNSS Edition of Chronos Times" from
chronos.co.uk. While a "newsletter" (read advertisement) style email,
the like of which I'm sure we all get from various sources, the
following paragraph contained a sentence about the recent European LORAN 
shutdown.

I won't quote the entire "newsletter", but the paragraph in question
reads:

---BEGIN QUOTE---
We wish you a happy and prosperous 2016 and welcome to the first GNSS 
edition of the Chronos Times. Apart from a number of new exciting 
products shown below, the best news we had just before Christmas was 
that eLoran transmissions for timing and data services will be 
maintained going forward. Whilst the rest of Europe has decided to close 
down its old Loran-C transmitters, the UK has confirmed that eLoran 
transmissions from Anthorn will continue. This is early days for this 
new service
---END QUOTE---

So, that's some good news at least. How long for, as Paul says is to be
determined, but at least it's positive news


Best Regards

Iain

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Jan  6 12:05:37 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2016 17:05:37 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <568D155F.7070605@g7iii.net>
References: <50570a.cc0bf48.43bd6a6a@aol.com>
 <CAD2JfAiJJg5e6Jnm3N53Dp2fUqA4neUCCWXtU+v9OwnEKD8Erw@mail.gmail.com>
 <568D155F.7070605@g7iii.net>
Message-ID: <11786.1452099937@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------

It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is botched,
anybody who can confirm ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From lists at philpem.me.uk  Wed Jan  6 13:14:06 2016
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:14:06 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] (OT) Looking for a paper from NAV01 (RIN
 International Conference on Navigation)
In-Reply-To: <20160104220248.81de4e3e747929854626cd1b@kinali.ch>
References: <5687B076.7040904@philpem.me.uk>
 <20160104220248.81de4e3e747929854626cd1b@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <568D596E.3000405@philpem.me.uk>

On 04/01/16 21:02, Attila Kinali wrote:
> That's weird. The RIN website has an explicit conference proceedings download
> page:
> http://members.rin.org.uk/conferencepapers/conferencepapers.aspx
> 
> They list there a special email address conference at rin.org.uk as contact
> to ask for access. I don't know what their requirements are but if they
> are anything like the Royal Society, then there is a good chance you'll
> get access.

Yes, I've seen that, and been in contact with them -- sadly their
archive only goes back as far as 2010. I asked about two papers and they
offered to pass my request onto the co-author of the other one as they
were still a RIN member, but were sadly unable to assist with this one.

> Interesting. If you get access to the paper, i would be interested in
> it as well.

I've contacted TIB (the German university library in Hannover). Sadly
they can't send the paper because it's not covered by their Europe-wide
copyright licence -- so they can only supply it to persons inside Germany :(

So close and yet so far!

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 13:21:02 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 13:21:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <5ca73a.3abd20a2.43beb50e@aol.com>

It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
anybody who can confirm ?
 
----------------
 
Something's certainly not right at the moment.
This morning all was working fine with both Master and Y stations locked on 
 different receivers, but I had to go out for a few hours and when I 
returned  sometime after 1400, although I could still see a loran transmission on  
100KHz, nothing would lock and I was getting various errors reported,  
including "Can't match phase code".
 
As of 1815 this situation continues, although I'm still seeing  occasional 
signal dropouts and then recovery, so perhaps they're still working  on it.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 14:20:56 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 14:20:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <5ce6d0.616cac05.43bec318@aol.com>

It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
anybody who can confirm ?
----------------
 
Ah well, as of 1915 the FS700s seem to be locking ok again but  still with 
the monitored signal dropping out from time to time so I guess we  just need 
to be patient and treat it as work in progress.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Jan  6 14:23:11 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 2016 19:23:11 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <5ce6d0.616cac05.43bec318@aol.com>
References: <5ce6d0.616cac05.43bec318@aol.com>
Message-ID: <79650.1452108191@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <5ce6d0.616cac05.43bec318 at aol.com>, GandalfG8 at aol.com writes:
>--part1_5ce6d0.616cac05.43bec318_boundary

>It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
>anybody who can confirm ?
>----------------
> 
>Ah well, as of 1915 the FS700s seem to be locking ok again but  still with 
>the monitored signal dropping out from time to time so I guess we  just need 
>to be patient and treat it as work in progress.

I can lock too, but best lock is to the 3rd pulse in the master
signal using the slave-code...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk  Wed Jan  6 14:23:55 2016
From: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk (David J Taylor)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 19:23:55 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <5ca73a.3abd20a2.43beb50e@aol.com>
References: <5ca73a.3abd20a2.43beb50e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <6193D6D7B1704FC582BAF2A49F79D08C@Alta>

FOlks,

Whilst it's not e-LORAN, and it may not be of much help, I can at least now 
look for signals here in Edinburgh give the GRI.  I'm using:

- e-field vertical mounted in the loft (yes, it would be far better outside)
- SpyVerter/Airspy receiver hardware
- SDR# receiver software
- Virtual Audio Cable to send the audio from SDR# to;
- NDBfinder software from www.coaa.co.uk

This doesn't do anything ultra clever, just shows the signals like you would 
see on a 'scope, but integrated to improve the S/N.

Cheers,
David
-- 
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


From ptdeboer at cs.utwente.nl  Wed Jan  6 15:22:51 2016
From: ptdeboer at cs.utwente.nl (Pieter-Tjerk de Boer)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 21:22:51 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <11786.1452099937@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <50570a.cc0bf48.43bd6a6a@aol.com>
 <CAD2JfAiJJg5e6Jnm3N53Dp2fUqA4neUCCWXtU+v9OwnEKD8Erw@mail.gmail.com>
 <568D155F.7070605@g7iii.net> <11786.1452099937@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20160106202251.GC18857@cs.utwente.nl>


On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 05:05:37PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is botched,
> anybody who can confirm ?

Indeed, see the attached plot (from a recording I made earlier this
evening): the master signal is totally lacking the 180 degree phase
code modulation, while the slave signal does have it.

Regards,
  Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM

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From brucekareen at aol.com  Wed Jan  6 14:37:43 2016
From: brucekareen at aol.com (brucekareen at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 14:37:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
Message-ID: <1521871e386-284-13f8@webprd-m102.mail.aol.com>

I realize this would not measure frequency or phase difference; but has anyone used a lock-in amplifier to compare two 10 MHz signals -- for example to adjust a rubidium oscillator to agree with a GPS reference?

Bruce, KG6OJI

From Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca  Wed Jan  6 16:44:07 2016
From: Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca (Brian Inglis)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 14:44:07 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat>
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
 <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat>
Message-ID: <568D8AA7.8080003@SystematicSw.ab.ca>

On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.

It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money as it too shut down at the end of 2015!

-- 
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

From j.frieling at gmx.de  Wed Jan  6 17:00:50 2016
From: j.frieling at gmx.de (Jochen Frieling)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 23:00:50 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] (OT) Looking for a paper from NAV01 (RIN
 International Conference on Navigation)
In-Reply-To: <568D596E.3000405@philpem.me.uk>
References: <5687B076.7040904@philpem.me.uk>
 <20160104220248.81de4e3e747929854626cd1b@kinali.ch>
 <568D596E.3000405@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <568D8E92.50907@gmx.de>

Hi Phil,

On 01/06/2016 07:14 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> I've contacted TIB (the German university library in Hannover). Sadly
> they can't send the paper because it's not covered by their Europe-wide
> copyright licence -- so they can only supply it to persons inside Germany

First off it looks like they won't even give out the 450 page work, but
only photocopies of requested articles/pages ("bestellbar / nur Kopie").

As I live close to Hannover, I will give it a try the next days to
obtain a copy of the Hartinger,Willson,Cousins paper.
Nothing is lost, but keep your fingers crossed.

I will then see to it that it is made accessible for you and Attila and
the others interested.

Greetings,
Jochen



From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Wed Jan  6 20:39:07 2016
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 01:39:07 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
 <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat> <568D8AA7.8080003@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <A8BB501E7A564F46A4ED025D80751B87@gnat>

Yeah well its all done by computers now you dont need qualified navigators, 
the Captain can easily run it aground on his own :-)) It took a little 
longer than dumping ROs but not much.

Alan
G3NYK

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Inglis" <Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?


> On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
>> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it 
>> was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.
>
> It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money 
> as it too shut down at the end of 2015!
>
> -- 
> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there. 


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 20:44:05 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 20:44:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <568D8AA7.8080003@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
 <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat>
 <568D8AA7.8080003@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjfg9ddy9Zu11oUjPZ8Vy2hGXuCjOQ++Ga9sziD1QbrGw@mail.gmail.com>

I would give Anthorn some time to settle down. It will.
Its a shame no one here has actual contacts with the people that run it.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Brian Inglis <
Brian.Inglis at systematicsw.ab.ca> wrote:

> On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
>
>> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it
>> was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.
>>
>
> It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money
> as it too shut down at the end of 2015!
>
> --
> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Wed Jan  6 20:45:21 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 20:45:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <1521871e386-284-13f8@webprd-m102.mail.aol.com>
References: <1521871e386-284-13f8@webprd-m102.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjWoUNMoRyPeROA1VrRaurxncAGG1MzCuE3d7rLnpvieQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes must have been a year or so ago there was a thread I recall that
someone was doing that.
Thats one expensive approach to the problem.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Bruce Hunter via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> I realize this would not measure frequency or phase difference; but has
> anyone used a lock-in amplifier to compare two 10 MHz signals -- for
> example to adjust a rubidium oscillator to agree with a GPS reference?
>
> Bruce, KG6OJI
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From richard at karlquist.com  Wed Jan  6 21:30:07 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:30:07 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>



On 1/5/2016 12:07 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that of the traditional mixer.
> Bruce
>
Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and
you will see that the whole theory of operation of these
depends on keeping the signal levels in them very small,
especially if linearity (actually translinearity) is
important.  They always have current sources in the
emitters that contribute a lot of noise.  So you have
small signals and large noise.  The IC's that are
designed to be DC coupled have even more sources of
extra noise.

IMHO, they only make sense in low performance applications
where the lack of transformers is important or in DC
coupled applications.  The only time I have used an
analog multiplier IC was in Costas loop to demodulate
QPSK from weather satellite.  It needed to be DC coupled.

Rick Karlquist N6RK




>      On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
>
>   My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
> my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>
> Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
> and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>
> Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>
> What am I overlooking ?
>

From Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca  Thu Jan  7 01:26:11 2016
From: Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca (Brian Inglis)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2016 23:26:11 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <A8BB501E7A564F46A4ED025D80751B87@gnat>
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
 <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat> <568D8AA7.8080003@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
 <A8BB501E7A564F46A4ED025D80751B87@gnat>
Message-ID: <568E0503.20108@SystematicSw.ab.ca>

The 2015 shutdown was of the Research Information Network, but I guess the OP may have meant the Royal Institute of Navigation? Hard to believe anyone responsible from the latter would decry eLoran, unless perhaps the operational cost was seen to be unreasonable.

On 2016-01-06 18:39, Alan Melia wrote:
> Yeah well its all done by computers now you dont need qualified navigators, the Captain can easily run it aground on his own :-)) It took a little longer than dumping ROs but not much.
>
> Alan
> G3NYK
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Inglis" <Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca>
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
>
>
>> On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
>>> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.
>>
>> It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of money as it too shut down at the end of 2015!

-- 
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Thu Jan  7 04:29:48 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 04:29:48 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <31e92a.43871011.43bf8a0c@aol.com>

> It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
> anybody who can confirm ?
 
Indeed, see the attached plot (from a recording I made earlier  this
evening): the master signal is totally lacking the 180 degree  phase
code modulation, while the slave signal does have  it.
Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
 
---------
This explains exactly what I've been seeing here on the FS700s.
 
By default the FS700 runs in an "Auto" mode, where given a valid GRI  it 
searches and locks to the station with the highest signal strength,  but with 
both Master and Y channels now having the same amplitude this obviously  
becomes a very close call.
This wasn't an issue until yesterday afternoon, but  with both operational 
units producing errors I eventually  realised this was only when they were 
trying to lock to the  Master and that they would still lock ok to the Y  
channel, manually selecting the Y channel resolved the problem.
 
Whether or not the current situation is deliberate or unintended,  having 
the Master present again, even in a restricted fashion, does at  least 
restore proper channel identification:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 
 
 

From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Thu Jan  7 06:55:46 2016
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 11:55:46 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
 <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat> <568D8AA7.8080003@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
 <A8BB501E7A564F46A4ED025D80751B87@gnat> <568E0503.20108@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <F929F29B45F9446FA268A18B24D9FCDA@gnat>

Hi Brian Yes I did mean the Royal Inst. of Navigation.  I think the hard 
facts were that there seemed no support from Governments for systems for 
which the users could not be billed . That hastened the demise of our own 
Decca Nav system in the late 90s also hastened by the end of the Cold War. 
My contact may have been jaundiced as he had been a Decca man. I had a 
contact whilst the Loop Head gear was operating from Rugby, but not after 
the contract passed to Babcock and Anthorn......but there were ex BT staff 
working there.....I will enquire.

Alan
G3NYK
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Inglis" <Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?


> The 2015 shutdown was of the Research Information Network, but I guess the 
> OP may have meant the Royal Institute of Navigation? Hard to believe 
> anyone responsible from the latter would decry eLoran, unless perhaps the 
> operational cost was seen to be unreasonable.
>
> On 2016-01-06 18:39, Alan Melia wrote:
>> Yeah well its all done by computers now you dont need qualified 
>> navigators, the Captain can easily run it aground on his own :-)) It took 
>> a little longer than dumping ROs but not much.
>>
>> Alan
>> G3NYK
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Inglis" 
>> <Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca>
>> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
>>
>>
>>> On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
>>>> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it 
>>>> was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.
>>>
>>> It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of 
>>> money as it too shut down at the end of 2015!
>
> -- 
> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there. 


From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Jan  7 07:35:55 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 13:35:55 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>

On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:30:07 -0800
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:

> Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and
> you will see that the whole theory of operation of these
> depends on keeping the signal levels in them very small,
> especially if linearity (actually translinearity) is
> important.  They always have current sources in the
> emitters that contribute a lot of noise.  So you have
> small signals and large noise.  The IC's that are
> designed to be DC coupled have even more sources of
> extra noise.

How about using the Gilbert Cell as "digital" mixer,
ie driving the currents hard from one branch to the other
and replacing the current sources by resistors?

How much would that improve the noise? Would it be still much
worse than the diode mixer?

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 09:33:41 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 09:33:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
In-Reply-To: <F929F29B45F9446FA268A18B24D9FCDA@gnat>
References: <71b445.7a62c888.43bc2148@aol.com>
 <7DC35CC6C0D94228BAA773589F5FCA67@gnat>
 <568D8AA7.8080003@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
 <A8BB501E7A564F46A4ED025D80751B87@gnat>
 <568E0503.20108@SystematicSw.ab.ca>
 <F929F29B45F9446FA268A18B24D9FCDA@gnat>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAgxybiGVa9Sjbn1mKhmemCQibBOsPSLqRTPRpFLRYJ-ng@mail.gmail.com>

I will say that this is the case that Time-nuts can actually help.
I suspect no one knows there are people out here that can tell the
difference in the Master signals. I learned that lesson when I built up the
Loran C simulator. The first one did not do the flips. Then when the
Austrons would not lock I figured it out. Yes I should have read the spec
more carefully.
If you can find contacts that care they most likely will appreciate you
help.
Good luck
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:55 AM, Alan Melia <alan.melia at btinternet.com>
wrote:

> Hi Brian Yes I did mean the Royal Inst. of Navigation.  I think the hard
> facts were that there seemed no support from Governments for systems for
> which the users could not be billed . That hastened the demise of our own
> Decca Nav system in the late 90s also hastened by the end of the Cold War.
> My contact may have been jaundiced as he had been a Decca man. I had a
> contact whilst the Loop Head gear was operating from Rugby, but not after
> the contract passed to Babcock and Anthorn......but there were ex BT staff
> working there.....I will enquire.
>
> Alan
> G3NYK
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Inglis" <
> Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 6:26 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
>
>
> The 2015 shutdown was of the Research Information Network, but I guess the
>> OP may have meant the Royal Institute of Navigation? Hard to believe anyone
>> responsible from the latter would decry eLoran, unless perhaps the
>> operational cost was seen to be unreasonable.
>>
>> On 2016-01-06 18:39, Alan Melia wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah well its all done by computers now you dont need qualified
>>> navigators, the Captain can easily run it aground on his own :-)) It took a
>>> little longer than dumping ROs but not much.
>>>
>>> Alan
>>> G3NYK
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Inglis" <
>>> Brian.Inglis at SystematicSw.ab.ca>
>>> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2016-01-04 14:11, Alan Melia wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I remember being told by a senior member of the RIN that he thought it
>>>>> was a "dead duck" and a waste of money.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It appears someone also thought RIN was a "dead duck" and a waste of
>>>> money as it too shut down at the end of 2015!
>>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis, Calgary, Alberta, Canada
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From stanw1le at verizon.net  Thu Jan  7 11:36:35 2016
From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 11:36:35 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] More eLORAN Info
In-Reply-To: <020c01d14967$3d793db0$b86bb910$@taviga.com>
References: <020c01d14967$3d793db0$b86bb910$@taviga.com>
Message-ID: <568E9413.8020501@verizon.net>

More eLORAN info:   de Stan, W1LE


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	FW: eLORAN
Date: 	Thu, 07 Jan 2016 11:19:51 -0500
From: 	Charles Schue (Taviga) <Charles.Schue at taviga.com>
To: 	StanW1LE at verizon.net
CC: 	'Charles Curry' <charles.curry at taviga.com>, Stephen Bartlett 
<Stephen.Bartlett at ursanav.com>, 'Dana Goward' <dgoward at rntfnd.org>



Hi Stan,

You are welcome to distribute this and other Taviga, UrsaNav, or Chronos Press Releases as you see fit. You and your colleagues might also take a look at the Resilient Navigation and Timing Foundation's website at: www.rntfnd.org. I've added their President, Dana Goward, to this email FYI.

Since you received this press release, I expect you have already been talking with Steve Bartlett - our VP of Operations at our office in N. Billerica, MA. If not, he can inform you of any timing trials that we may be running. He can be reached at the included email, or at 781.538.5299 x108. We are always interested in feedback from the HAM community, both nationally and internationally, so that we can better understand how our signals are being received and used.

Of course, if you find the signals useful, then we would appreciate any support you or your colleagues/organizations might provide to eLoran initiatives via your elected officials.

Please do not hesitate to reach out to us if we can answer any questions.

Best, Chuck.

Very Best Regards,
Charles Schue, FRIN
Co-Founder & Director
M: +1.703.623.5212




-----Original Message-----
From: Stan W1LE [mailto:stanw1le at verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2016 11:00
To: charles.schue at taviga.com
Subject: eLORAN

Hello Charles,

Do you mind if I distribute this press release to my local and international ham radio friends with an interest in timing and LF reception ?
Do you mind if I distribute future press releases ?

I missed being able to achieve Cs frequency accuracy in the LORAN C system with Nantucket ~ 40 miles away.

I do my receiving with a Stanford Research Systems FS700 LORAN C Frequency Standard.

I will await your approval to redistribute on the Internet.

Stan, W1LE    Cape Cod   FN41sr





From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Jan  7 11:39:29 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 17:39:29 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <5f6352f9242d3a3ea08bf418e87b94cd@rubidium.dyndns.org>

On 2016-01-07 13:35, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:30:07 -0800
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
>> Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and
>> you will see that the whole theory of operation of these
>> depends on keeping the signal levels in them very small,
>> especially if linearity (actually translinearity) is
>> important.  They always have current sources in the
>> emitters that contribute a lot of noise.  So you have
>> small signals and large noise.  The IC's that are
>> designed to be DC coupled have even more sources of
>> extra noise.
> 
> How about using the Gilbert Cell as "digital" mixer,
> ie driving the currents hard from one branch to the other
> and replacing the current sources by resistors?
> 
> How much would that improve the noise? Would it be still much
> worse than the diode mixer?

I think so.

I checked up the MC1496 (just a sample-point of a classic Gilbert cell 
chip), it has 25 mV Peak, or -22 dBm as maximum input voltage before it 
starts to compress. Looking at the VCWR curves it is clear that it 
starts to misbehave there.

Comparing that to the SBL-1+ double-balanced mixer (another random 
sample-point), which has an LO max of +7 dBm, you are looking at a 
difference of about 30 dB (29 to be exact, but neither number is exact 
to the 1 dB so).

The MC1495, which is a linearized variant of the MC1496 (only true to 
some degree, it's more complex than that), allows 5 V signals easily, 
but internally you then go down to about the same levels.

So, while you can drive things harder, you can do that on both sides. If 
it where less of a difference I'd say it would not be such a big 
difference, but it is relatively large difference here.

Anyway, just wanted to put a few numbers down to illustrate the 
difference.

Cheers,
Magnus

From richard at karlquist.com  Thu Jan  7 11:48:23 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 08:48:23 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <568E96D7.2010208@karlquist.com>

On 1/7/2016 4:35 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
> How about using the Gilbert Cell as "digital" mixer,
> ie driving the currents hard from one branch to the other
> and replacing the current sources by resistors?
>
> How much would that improve the noise? Would it be still much
> worse than the diode mixer?
>
> 			Attila Kinali

You can drive the Gilbert cell as hard as you want, but
the active region is only about 100 mv so the extra
drive voltage doesn't help.  It is the same as if you
drove it with a 100 mV square wave.  Somewhat better
than a sine wave, but not a game changer.

You can of course try to replace the emitter current source
with a resistor, which works to the extent that you can
afford to throw away voltage across the resistor, but
you will never get a very high impedance.  No OTS IC's
are designed this way.  What would be better would be
to use an inductor.  A true noiseless current source.
Again no OTS IC's are designed this way.

You would have to homebrew the whole mixer from discretes.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

From stanw1le at verizon.net  Thu Jan  7 11:10:17 2016
From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 11:10:17 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eLORAN Press Release
Message-ID: <568E8DE9.3050002@verizon.net>

Hello The Nets:

Here is a Internet site I bumped into, concerning eLORAN future activities:

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/4da9d35f4b210189eeb874d73/files/Taviga_Press_Release_Anthorn_Continuity_07JAN2016_Final_01.pdf


Stan, W1LE    Cape Cod   FN41sr




ZZZZz

From tshoppa at gmail.com  Thu Jan  7 12:09:44 2016
From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 12:09:44 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_qRvZuyJK347ov-8r8bz+DsOGBw4K99ehtzTJ3VCVsEADOPA@mail.gmail.com>

Gilbert cells are very useful in many "compromise" circuits. If you have a
fixed power budget on the very low end, Gilbert cells may be the best
choice because they make a balanced mixer stage that has substantial gain
with miniscule LO drive requirements.

Contrast that with a DBM diode mixer where they take substantial LO drive
and operate some loss.

In the no-compromise time-nuts context, there may be a good place for a
Gilbert cell. Maybe in a circuit where the Gilbert cell is getting hit with
a well-defined signal with low dynamic range that dwarfs the noise
contribution. The low LO requirement of a Gilbert cell also makes it easier
to isolate the LO from the rest of the circuitry and that can reduce
shielding needs. But it's not gonna go where you need both low noise and
high dynamic range.

Tim N3QE

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:30 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
richard at karlquist.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 1/5/2016 12:07 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>
>> The noise of such Gilbert cell based analog multipliers far exceeds that
>> of the traditional mixer.
>> Bruce
>>
>> Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and
> you will see that the whole theory of operation of these
> depends on keeping the signal levels in them very small,
> especially if linearity (actually translinearity) is
> important.  They always have current sources in the
> emitters that contribute a lot of noise.  So you have
> small signals and large noise.  The IC's that are
> designed to be DC coupled have even more sources of
> extra noise.
>
> IMHO, they only make sense in low performance applications
> where the lack of transformers is important or in DC
> coupled applications.  The only time I have used an
> analog multiplier IC was in Costas loop to demodulate
> QPSK from weather satellite.  It needed to be DC coupled.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
>
>
>
>
>      On Wednesday, 6 January 2016 9:01 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <
>> phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>   My little HP5065 project is continually running into the jitter of
>> my HP5370B counter which is annoying me, so I'm looking int DMTD.
>>
>> Everybody seems to be using traditional diode-mixers for DMTD,
>> and to be honest I fail to see the attraction.
>>
>> Why wouldn't a analog multiplier like AD835 be better idea ?
>>
>> What am I overlooking ?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Jan  7 18:11:14 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 18:11:14 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>

Hi

If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run
an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than
an over-driven analog part. 

Yes *somebody* should check out a board built that way …. I’ll
let you know when I do. 

Bob


> On Jan 7, 2016, at 7:35 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 18:30:07 -0800
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
>> Read Gilbert's paper or Gray and Meyers analog IC textbook and
>> you will see that the whole theory of operation of these
>> depends on keeping the signal levels in them very small,
>> especially if linearity (actually translinearity) is
>> important.  They always have current sources in the
>> emitters that contribute a lot of noise.  So you have
>> small signals and large noise.  The IC's that are
>> designed to be DC coupled have even more sources of
>> extra noise.
> 
> How about using the Gilbert Cell as "digital" mixer,
> ie driving the currents hard from one branch to the other
> and replacing the current sources by resistors?
> 
> How much would that improve the noise? Would it be still much
> worse than the diode mixer?
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From richard at karlquist.com  Fri Jan  8 12:16:58 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 09:16:58 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>



On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run
> an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than
> an over-driven analog part.

> Bob
>

If you look at the schematic of an XOR gate IC and compare it
to the schematic of, for example, an MC1496 mixer, you will
see a lot of similarity.  If the gate is of the ECL type,
it will have the addition of emitter followers, but that
it a minor detail of implementation.  I'm not sure there
is a huge difference.  ECL is a great logic family in
general (self-confessed ECL-phile here :-) but it is
probably the worst for phase noise, compared to the
saturating logic types.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Jan  8 17:42:05 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 17:42:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>

Hi

The board I have uses high speed CMOS single gate XOR’s. They have a pretty good
phase noise floor (-170’s) so they should be pretty reasonable. 

Bob

> On Jan 8, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run
>> an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than
>> an over-driven analog part.
> 
>> Bob
>> 
> 
> If you look at the schematic of an XOR gate IC and compare it
> to the schematic of, for example, an MC1496 mixer, you will
> see a lot of similarity.  If the gate is of the ECL type,
> it will have the addition of emitter followers, but that
> it a minor detail of implementation.  I'm not sure there
> is a huge difference.  ECL is a great logic family in
> general (self-confessed ECL-phile here :-) but it is
> probably the worst for phase noise, compared to the
> saturating logic types.
> 
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From mjbauer46 at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 20:49:12 2016
From: mjbauer46 at gmail.com (Michael Bauer)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 19:49:12 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] NTBW50AA Problem
Message-ID: <CAJ=s2heiXAh6oZ3NWavL6D_auwV_Qy--ZvojZnCcs+5D5N+2TA@mail.gmail.com>

My subj Nortel Trimble GPSTM had been working well for about two years.
Changed QTH by about 20 miles, reconnected with same power supply, coax and
antenna.  Cannot see any GPS satellites or 10 mHz output (9.8MHz on 8X Chip
is present and front panel LEDs show the unit responding to software
commands as before).

Lady Heather and tboltmon both report ROM, RAM, OSC, POWER, EEPROM and
ANTENNA OK thru RS-232 interface.  Replaced bullet antenna anyway - no
change.  5VDC present at antenna and it draws about 33 mA.  Other local GPS
devices (two vehicles and one EarthMate) achieve 3D fixes from ground level
antennas.  Performed warm, cold and hard resets (erasing former GPS
position), min elevation set at 15 degrees.  Survey starts, but doesn't
proceed.  All eight satellite status lines show yellow and zero's across.
Undisciplined, No GPS time, no Posn.  Start date is reported as 07 April
2019 week 2048.

The unit performed flawlessly at previous QTH frequently showing good
signals from 7-8 GPS satellites.  What happened?  Do I have a broken box
that cannot be detected by software control/reporting programs?

Thanks in advance for any ideas.

73,

Mike - W7GW

From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri Jan  8 14:33:54 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 11:33:54 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Picture of the HP Flying Clock in its seat on TWA
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_22voXbD=WhCdm2OKfrPG9Aj4Vcj3midccv8w6cpykWg@mail.gmail.com>

http://dsx.weather.com//util/image/w/024twc_vintageairtravel_980x551.jpg?v=at&w=980&h=551&api=7db9fe61-7414-47b5-9871-e17d87b8b6a0

source

http://www.weather.com/travel/commuter-conditions/news/vintage-air-travel-photos-20130513

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 21:05:56 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 21:05:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Allen deviation? Yes indeed that subject again
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAh6Kiw0KGkBaZV4MGn4rBhE6DLdtdhziady8Bu=hOK1KA@mail.gmail.com>

I have been looking at the subject of Allen deviation and this has been
discussed numbers of time on Time-nuts.
But my question is this.

If an oscillator is stable in frequency but shifts phase 90 degrees and
then comes back in a short time. From my reading I don't think that will
show up in a typical Allen deviation plot that runs 1000s of readings at 1
second intervals. Typical HP5370 test setup. I think this capture approach
will miss the issue.

How often? Correct phase .5-3 hours, shift 5-10 minutes it seems random
actually and the duration varies.
Am I looking at this correctly?

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

From lllaaa at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 21:19:05 2016
From: lllaaa at gmail.com (Li Ang)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:19:05 +0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bob,
    In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input
signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the
difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate? Acorrding to my understanding,
to multiply 1bit with another, I should use an AND gate, right?
    When you refer high speed CMOS XOR gate, do you mean 74LVC1G86?

Thanks

BI7LNQ


2016-01-09 6:42 GMT+08:00 Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org>:

> Hi
>
> The board I have uses high speed CMOS single gate XOR’s. They have a
> pretty good
> phase noise floor (-170’s) so they should be pretty reasonable.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 8, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run
> >> an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than
> >> an over-driven analog part.
> >
> >> Bob
> >>
> >
> > If you look at the schematic of an XOR gate IC and compare it
> > to the schematic of, for example, an MC1496 mixer, you will
> > see a lot of similarity.  If the gate is of the ECL type,
> > it will have the addition of emitter followers, but that
> > it a minor detail of implementation.  I'm not sure there
> > is a huge difference.  ECL is a great logic family in
> > general (self-confessed ECL-phile here :-) but it is
> > probably the worst for phase noise, compared to the
> > saturating logic types.
> >
> > Rick Karlquist N6RK
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From normanlizeth at gmail.com  Fri Jan  8 21:31:15 2016
From: normanlizeth at gmail.com (Lizeth Norman)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 21:31:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] NTBW50AA Problem
In-Reply-To: <CAJ=s2heiXAh6oZ3NWavL6D_auwV_Qy--ZvojZnCcs+5D5N+2TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ=s2heiXAh6oZ3NWavL6D_auwV_Qy--ZvojZnCcs+5D5N+2TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUhCTMY_+zjqwpMiSr0ygP=u-5Dv31nm+r9WBMONGOxyLUMgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Can you attach another gps reciever to the coax and confirm it's a
receiver issue?
Can you test coax with a load on one end and a antenna analzyer at the
other to ensure performance at some reasonable value (432 MHz)?
RG-59 (solid core) can do some odd stuff.
73 from el89va
n3ykf

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Michael Bauer <mjbauer46 at gmail.com> wrote:
> My subj Nortel Trimble GPSTM had been working well for about two years.
> Changed QTH by about 20 miles, reconnected with same power supply, coax and
> antenna.  Cannot see any GPS satellites or 10 mHz output (9.8MHz on 8X Chip
> is present and front panel LEDs show the unit responding to software
> commands as before).
>
> Lady Heather and tboltmon both report ROM, RAM, OSC, POWER, EEPROM and
> ANTENNA OK thru RS-232 interface.  Replaced bullet antenna anyway - no
> change.  5VDC present at antenna and it draws about 33 mA.  Other local GPS
> devices (two vehicles and one EarthMate) achieve 3D fixes from ground level
> antennas.  Performed warm, cold and hard resets (erasing former GPS
> position), min elevation set at 15 degrees.  Survey starts, but doesn't
> proceed.  All eight satellite status lines show yellow and zero's across.
> Undisciplined, No GPS time, no Posn.  Start date is reported as 07 April
> 2019 week 2048.
>
> The unit performed flawlessly at previous QTH frequently showing good
> signals from 7-8 GPS satellites.  What happened?  Do I have a broken box
> that cannot be detected by software control/reporting programs?
>
> Thanks in advance for any ideas.
>
> 73,
>
> Mike - W7GW
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From engineering at mt.net  Fri Jan  8 23:17:07 2016
From: engineering at mt.net (Gregory Muir)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 21:17:07 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] CTS 1960017 OCXO
Message-ID: <DD98312878E445B8ABB0FE4BAADC57BE@D32K5JC1>

Running a little late here in responding.  But I give thanks to both Bob Camp and Tim Shoppa for exposing my oversight about finding the spec for this oscillator on the (where else?) CTS site.  I originally tried but was not inserting the proper part number in their search field.

Guess the neurons were out for the night.

Greg

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat Jan  9 00:11:56 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 06:11:56 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Allen deviation? Yes indeed that subject again
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAh6Kiw0KGkBaZV4MGn4rBhE6DLdtdhziady8Bu=hOK1KA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2JfAh6Kiw0KGkBaZV4MGn4rBhE6DLdtdhziady8Bu=hOK1KA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5690969C.4030100@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Paul,

On 01/09/2016 03:05 AM, paul swed wrote:
> I have been looking at the subject of Allen deviation and this has been
> discussed numbers of time on Time-nuts.
> But my question is this.
>
> If an oscillator is stable in frequency but shifts phase 90 degrees and
> then comes back in a short time. From my reading I don't think that will
> show up in a typical Allen deviation plot that runs 1000s of readings at 1
> second intervals. Typical HP5370 test setup. I think this capture approach
> will miss the issue.
>
> How often? Correct phase .5-3 hours, shift 5-10 minutes it seems random
> actually and the duration varies.
> Am I looking at this correctly?

No.

OK, I might be a bit more specific. :)

We assume that it does it's phase-shift dance in perfect symmetry, then 
it is not as obvious that it will be observable, as if it didn't get 
exactly back we would naturally be able to observe that difference.

The condition for you not to observe it is really that the occurrence of 
these evens is synchronous to your measuring rate, and that these evens 
occur phase-wise in-between the two phase samples (as then we don't have 
to assume much more about the signal). For this case, it is obvious that 
you will always miss it. However, here we have the synchronization 
condition, which is obscure.

If we don't have the sampling rate and occurrence being synchronous,
it will be visible... but hard to notice. The power averaging would 
shift only so slightly that it would be hard to detect and it would 
disappear in the noise. If random as mechanism, it would only appear as 
the increase of the noise level. This is the case where ADEV isn't is 
necessarily your preferred tool, and is not intended to be your tool. It 
*might* appear as random-walk frequency noise, but it takes a little 
more analysis to conclude that.

Story-time: At NIST they saw how one of their cesium standards started 
to show unexpected random-walk frequency noise. This is exceptional as 
there is no real random-walk frequency noise source in clocks. They 
discovered this because they actually looked at their data. Turned out 
that the cleaning lady had to move the standard over the floor whenever 
she came in to clean up, and then she moved it back. The vibration from 
dragging it across the floor caused the modulation. Some re-arrangement 
in the lab she didn't have to move things around and the random-walk 
noise got back to normal.

So, look at the random walk noise, but do look at the phase-plot 
instead, especially the linear or quadratic fit residue plot of the 
phase. The normal frequency offset and even slow drift might obscure 
these deviations from being visible in the plot, only due to dynamic 
range. Remove the systematic shifts and you can see the fine-grain 
details. For TimeLab, press r for viewing the linear residue while 
viewing phase or frequency plot.

So, this is why I say you are not looking at it the right way.

Cheers,
Magnus

From eds_equipment at verizon.net  Sat Jan  9 00:06:09 2016
From: eds_equipment at verizon.net (Ed Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 00:06:09 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
Message-ID: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net>

Has anyone successfully ran Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model 
B? As it's not an x86 architecture processor, I assume Wine is no use 
and a custom compile is needed. Am I correct? Can any of you suggest 
where I can learn to do that, I'm rather new to Linux.

Thanks
Ed

From eds_equipment at verizon.net  Sat Jan  9 00:00:39 2016
From: eds_equipment at verizon.net (Ed Armstrong)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 00:00:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] NTGS50AA Palisade GPS + PPS = False Ticker?
Message-ID: <569093F7.60703@verizon.net>

I've got a Nortel / Trimble NTGS50AA which I've modified for PPS out 
connected to a raspberry pi NTP server.. I've got it using the PPS and 
the type 29 "Palisade" clock as the prefer server. 2 other public NTP 
servers and all is good.

When I try to use just the GPS & PPS, it works for a few minutes, then 
marks both as false ticker. Any Ideas? I've got the serial connection 
from the front port of the NTGS50AA going through a max 232, from there 
through an FTDI board to a computer. Data output from the NTGS50AA is 
fed to the Pi, Pi can't talk back. Lady Heather is running on the PC. Pi 
receives the TSIP messages with just an occasional failure.

I ran for weeks with just adafruit ultimate breakout NMEA & PPS only, 
never any trouble.


Thanks
Ed



From azelio.boriani at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 06:27:42 2016
From: azelio.boriani at gmail.com (Azelio Boriani)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 12:27:42 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] NTBW50AA Problem
In-Reply-To: <CAJ=s2heiXAh6oZ3NWavL6D_auwV_Qy--ZvojZnCcs+5D5N+2TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ=s2heiXAh6oZ3NWavL6D_auwV_Qy--ZvojZnCcs+5D5N+2TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjwOuKx4f5pWRG9_2tRprtr6_sLj_cvpDtSarJ+HBJ-+zek=g@mail.gmail.com>

If there is a problem in the RF front-end, no software can report
this... actually the only way to test the radio section of a GPS
receiver is to just connect it to an antenna (unless there is a GPS
simulator available).

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 2:49 AM, Michael Bauer <mjbauer46 at gmail.com> wrote:
> My subj Nortel Trimble GPSTM had been working well for about two years.
> Changed QTH by about 20 miles, reconnected with same power supply, coax and
> antenna.  Cannot see any GPS satellites or 10 mHz output (9.8MHz on 8X Chip
> is present and front panel LEDs show the unit responding to software
> commands as before).
>
> Lady Heather and tboltmon both report ROM, RAM, OSC, POWER, EEPROM and
> ANTENNA OK thru RS-232 interface.  Replaced bullet antenna anyway - no
> change.  5VDC present at antenna and it draws about 33 mA.  Other local GPS
> devices (two vehicles and one EarthMate) achieve 3D fixes from ground level
> antennas.  Performed warm, cold and hard resets (erasing former GPS
> position), min elevation set at 15 degrees.  Survey starts, but doesn't
> proceed.  All eight satellite status lines show yellow and zero's across.
> Undisciplined, No GPS time, no Posn.  Start date is reported as 07 April
> 2019 week 2048.
>
> The unit performed flawlessly at previous QTH frequently showing good
> signals from 7-8 GPS satellites.  What happened?  Do I have a broken box
> that cannot be detected by software control/reporting programs?
>
> Thanks in advance for any ideas.
>
> 73,
>
> Mike - W7GW
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Jan  9 09:19:21 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 09:19:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <98B89EC7-5C99-428D-B1C9-434E49F01C4E@n1k.org>

Hi


You can use a D flip flop to sample (down convert) a signal. You may or 
may not get into metastability problems when you do.

If you treat the gate inputs as -1 and +1 rather than 0 and 1, the XOR is a 
multiplier. If you put two signals into the gate and look at the output on a 
spectrum analyzer, you get the expected multiplier output. The *why* of
the -1 and +1 stuff is something I will leave to others. It’s a bit involved.

The 74LVC is a good series to use. The NC7SZ series is also a good one. 
In both cases, you will get a better noise floor at 5.5 V than at 3 V.

Bob

> On Jan 8, 2016, at 9:19 PM, Li Ang <lllaaa at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob,
>    In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input
> signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the
> difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate? Acorrding to my understanding,
> to multiply 1bit with another, I should use an AND gate, right?
>    When you refer high speed CMOS XOR gate, do you mean 74LVC1G86?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> BI7LNQ
> 
> 
> 2016-01-09 6:42 GMT+08:00 Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org>:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> The board I have uses high speed CMOS single gate XOR’s. They have a
>> pretty good
>> phase noise floor (-170’s) so they should be pretty reasonable.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2016, at 12:16 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
>> richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 1/7/2016 3:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> If your intention is to run a mixer with saturated inputs …. just run
>>>> an X-OR gate. It will handle the high level signals much better than
>>>> an over-driven analog part.
>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> If you look at the schematic of an XOR gate IC and compare it
>>> to the schematic of, for example, an MC1496 mixer, you will
>>> see a lot of similarity.  If the gate is of the ECL type,
>>> it will have the addition of emitter followers, but that
>>> it a minor detail of implementation.  I'm not sure there
>>> is a huge difference.  ECL is a great logic family in
>>> general (self-confessed ECL-phile here :-) but it is
>>> probably the worst for phase noise, compared to the
>>> saturating logic types.
>>> 
>>> Rick Karlquist N6RK
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> and follow the instructions there.
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> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 09:40:51 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 09:40:51 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Allen deviation? Yes indeed that subject again
In-Reply-To: <5690969C.4030100@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <CAD2JfAh6Kiw0KGkBaZV4MGn4rBhE6DLdtdhziady8Bu=hOK1KA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5690969C.4030100@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjr3ZogysiOwJVda1HuyAVSUE9Yw0hTc8Xz55zN_077XA@mail.gmail.com>

Magnus
Thanks what you are saying and what I see in the NIST paper 2028 agree.
Thats why I decided to ask.
I am not using timelab as I mentioned. Instead a HP3575 Gain and phase
meter with a windaq charting a/d and program. The reference a HP5071 in
very good standing.

I guess in the case of the cleaning lady at NIST, it really was a random
walk.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 12:11 AM, Magnus Danielson <
magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> On 01/09/2016 03:05 AM, paul swed wrote:
>
>> I have been looking at the subject of Allen deviation and this has been
>> discussed numbers of time on Time-nuts.
>> But my question is this.
>>
>> If an oscillator is stable in frequency but shifts phase 90 degrees and
>> then comes back in a short time. From my reading I don't think that will
>> show up in a typical Allen deviation plot that runs 1000s of readings at 1
>> second intervals. Typical HP5370 test setup. I think this capture approach
>> will miss the issue.
>>
>> How often? Correct phase .5-3 hours, shift 5-10 minutes it seems random
>> actually and the duration varies.
>> Am I looking at this correctly?
>>
>
> No.
>
> OK, I might be a bit more specific. :)
>
> We assume that it does it's phase-shift dance in perfect symmetry, then it
> is not as obvious that it will be observable, as if it didn't get exactly
> back we would naturally be able to observe that difference.
>
> The condition for you not to observe it is really that the occurrence of
> these evens is synchronous to your measuring rate, and that these evens
> occur phase-wise in-between the two phase samples (as then we don't have to
> assume much more about the signal). For this case, it is obvious that you
> will always miss it. However, here we have the synchronization condition,
> which is obscure.
>
> If we don't have the sampling rate and occurrence being synchronous,
> it will be visible... but hard to notice. The power averaging would shift
> only so slightly that it would be hard to detect and it would disappear in
> the noise. If random as mechanism, it would only appear as the increase of
> the noise level. This is the case where ADEV isn't is necessarily your
> preferred tool, and is not intended to be your tool. It *might* appear as
> random-walk frequency noise, but it takes a little more analysis to
> conclude that.
>
> Story-time: At NIST they saw how one of their cesium standards started to
> show unexpected random-walk frequency noise. This is exceptional as there
> is no real random-walk frequency noise source in clocks. They discovered
> this because they actually looked at their data. Turned out that the
> cleaning lady had to move the standard over the floor whenever she came in
> to clean up, and then she moved it back. The vibration from dragging it
> across the floor caused the modulation. Some re-arrangement in the lab she
> didn't have to move things around and the random-walk noise got back to
> normal.
>
> So, look at the random walk noise, but do look at the phase-plot instead,
> especially the linear or quadratic fit residue plot of the phase. The
> normal frequency offset and even slow drift might obscure these deviations
> from being visible in the plot, only due to dynamic range. Remove the
> systematic shifts and you can see the fine-grain details. For TimeLab,
> press r for viewing the linear residue while viewing phase or frequency
> plot.
>
> So, this is why I say you are not looking at it the right way.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Sat Jan  9 09:36:07 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 09:36:07 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net>
References: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>

Unfortunately, LH uses a graphics toolkit that was written by
John Miles, and it, and he, is windows only.

I got started on converting it to PyQT4, but got side tracked.

Maybe this year is the year I get all of the stuff I have promised
done?

-Chuck Harris

Ed Armstrong wrote:
> Has anyone successfully ran Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B? As it's
> not an x86 architecture processor, I assume Wine is no use and a custom compile is
> needed. Am I correct? Can any of you suggest where I can learn to do that, I'm rather
> new to Linux.
>
> Thanks
> Ed
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat Jan  9 14:18:26 2016
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 11:18:26 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
References: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net> <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
Message-ID: <56915D02.3080508@jwsss.com>



On 1/9/2016 6:36 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:
> Unfortunately, LH uses a graphics toolkit that was written by
> John Miles, and it, and he, is windows only.
>
> I got started on converting it to PyQT4, but got side tracked.
>
> Maybe this year is the year I get all of the stuff I have promised
> done?
>
> -Chuck Harris
>
> Ed Armstrong wrote:
>> Has anyone successfully ran Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 
>> Model B? As it's
>> not an x86 architecture processor, I assume Wine is no use and a 
>> custom compile is
>> needed. Am I correct? Can any of you suggest where I can learn to do 
>> that, I'm rather
>> new to Linux.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ed
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
Depending on the executable, wine runs on ARM.  YMMV.

http://wiki.winehq.org/ARM

Qemu and Dosbox run quite a lot of things I have on Raspberry Pi, and 
other ARM SOC's that I have.

Thanks
Jim

From mjbauer46 at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 14:42:43 2016
From: mjbauer46 at gmail.com (Michael Bauer)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 13:42:43 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] NTBW50AA Problem
In-Reply-To: <CAJUhCTMY_+zjqwpMiSr0ygP=u-5Dv31nm+r9WBMONGOxyLUMgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ=s2heiXAh6oZ3NWavL6D_auwV_Qy--ZvojZnCcs+5D5N+2TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJUhCTMY_+zjqwpMiSr0ygP=u-5Dv31nm+r9WBMONGOxyLUMgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ=s2hcf7M4pFWuZsugZL+XxcTqRNfsmDLFk5o6nPe42u1wUOg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for responding.  Unfortunately I don't have another GPS receiver.

The coax is RG6 with solid center conductor.  I can put AIM4170 antenna
analyzer on it but mine only goes up to 180 MHz.  Coax could show quite OK
at 180 and be a lot different at 1500.  Won't hurt to try tho.

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Lizeth Norman <normanlizeth at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Can you attach another gps reciever to the coax and confirm it's a
> receiver issue?
> Can you test coax with a load on one end and a antenna analzyer at the
> other to ensure performance at some reasonable value (432 MHz)?
> RG-59 (solid core) can do some odd stuff.
> 73 from el89va
> n3ykf
>
> On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Michael Bauer <mjbauer46 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My subj Nortel Trimble GPSTM had been working well for about two years.
> > Changed QTH by about 20 miles, reconnected with same power supply, coax
> and
> > antenna.  Cannot see any GPS satellites or 10 mHz output (9.8MHz on 8X
> Chip
> > is present and front panel LEDs show the unit responding to software
> > commands as before).
> >
> > Lady Heather and tboltmon both report ROM, RAM, OSC, POWER, EEPROM and
> > ANTENNA OK thru RS-232 interface.  Replaced bullet antenna anyway - no
> > change.  5VDC present at antenna and it draws about 33 mA.  Other local
> GPS
> > devices (two vehicles and one EarthMate) achieve 3D fixes from ground
> level
> > antennas.  Performed warm, cold and hard resets (erasing former GPS
> > position), min elevation set at 15 degrees.  Survey starts, but doesn't
> > proceed.  All eight satellite status lines show yellow and zero's across.
> > Undisciplined, No GPS time, no Posn.  Start date is reported as 07 April
> > 2019 week 2048.
> >
> > The unit performed flawlessly at previous QTH frequently showing good
> > signals from 7-8 GPS satellites.  What happened?  Do I have a broken box
> > that cannot be detected by software control/reporting programs?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any ideas.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Mike - W7GW
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Sat Jan  9 15:15:30 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 15:15:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Loran Europe Lessay seems to be back on air?
Message-ID: <377cf3.6547acba.43c2c462@aol.com>

> It seems to me that the code they use for the 6731M signal is  botched,
> anybody who can confirm ?
 
Indeed, see the attached plot (from a recording I made earlier  this
evening): the master signal is totally lacking the 180 degree  phase
code modulation, while the slave signal does have it.
 
Regards,
Pieter-Tjerk, PA3FWM
 
----------------
 
I didn't get a chance to check yesterday but am currently locked  onto both 
the "Lessay" Master and the Anthorn Y station so I assume  these problems 
are resolved, for now at least:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From attila at kinali.ch  Sat Jan  9 15:25:23 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 21:25:23 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>

On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:19:05 +0800
Li Ang <lllaaa at gmail.com> wrote:

>     In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input
> signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the
> difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate?

A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation,
but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect
it from a normal mixer (namely having half the energy at the frequeny
difference and half at the sum). 

An XOR gate on the other hand, produces a very nice spectrum, given
you input two clean square wave signals.

> Acorrding to my understanding,
> to multiply 1bit with another, I should use an AND gate, right?

If you think of the signals as digital in the computational sense,
with "high" representing "1" and "low" representing "0" then yes.
But in signal theory, it's more appropriate to think of signals
as "high" representing "+1" and low representing "-1".
In the latter case, the XOR is the multiplicative element, and not
the AND gate.

>     When you refer high speed CMOS XOR gate, do you mean 74LVC1G86?

Generally speaking: Faster CMOS better than slower CMOS in terms of phase noise.
(Though, I have yet to see actual measurements of this)

Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)


				Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Sat Jan  9 15:44:59 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 21:44:59 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Divider circuit for Rubidium Standard
In-Reply-To: <554A0F6A.10900@febo.com>
References: <BAY180-W26E5C2B2381B153EC9824494EA0@phx.gbl>
 <5548428F.7060809@karlquist.com>
 <BAY180-W690011EB43C29319A084AF94D00@phx.gbl>
 <554A0F6A.10900@febo.com>
Message-ID: <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>

Moin John,

Yes, I know I am comming back to an "old" discussion, but I have questions
that need to be answered! :-)

On Wed, 06 May 2015 08:56:10 -0400
John Ackermann N8UR <jra at febo.com> wrote:

> Wenzel has published the schematic of an excellent squaring circuit.  I 
> don't have the URL for their version handy, but I used it (with a couple 
> of mods) in the TADD-2 and TADD-2 Mini designs.  You can see the 
> schematic in the T2-Mini users guide at
> http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf.

The manual says:
---schnipp---
The purpose of the input circuit is to convert the RF input signal
into a low-jitter square wave that can drive the PIC clock input.
The circuit is closely based on the one published by Wenzel at 
http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html, with modifications
suggested by Bruce Griffiths and Ulrich Bangert. The revised circuit
works with inputs as low as -20dBm.
---schnapp---

The modification I can see is that the "current source" part of the
differential pair changed from being a single, shared resistor of 100R to
an inductor of 100uH, then splits up into two resistors of 220R,
which are bridged by a 100nF capacitor. The inductor results in a
reactance between 62R (100kHz) and 12k (20MHz) for the input range.

Can you shed a bit of light on why you did those modifications 
and what the intended effect is?


			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sat Jan  9 16:36:35 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 21:36:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Divider circuit for Rubidium Standard
In-Reply-To: <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>
References: <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <1169189256.2759165.1452375395612.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Splitting the resistor in 2 and ac coupling the emitters together reduces the effects of Vbe and/or base biasing mismatch allowing a more symmetric output and/or operation at lower input signal levels.The inductor reduces the high frequency variations in the total emitter current. It also reduces the tail current noise at high frequencies.
Bruce
 

    On Sunday, 10 January 2016 10:05 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
 

 Moin John,

Yes, I know I am comming back to an "old" discussion, but I have questions
that need to be answered! :-)

On Wed, 06 May 2015 08:56:10 -0400
John Ackermann N8UR <jra at febo.com> wrote:

> Wenzel has published the schematic of an excellent squaring circuit.  I 
> don't have the URL for their version handy, but I used it (with a couple 
> of mods) in the TADD-2 and TADD-2 Mini designs.  You can see the 
> schematic in the T2-Mini users guide at
> http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf.

The manual says:
---schnipp---
The purpose of the input circuit is to convert the RF input signal
into a low-jitter square wave that can drive the PIC clock input.
The circuit is closely based on the one published by Wenzel at 
http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html, with modifications
suggested by Bruce Griffiths and Ulrich Bangert. The revised circuit
works with inputs as low as -20dBm.
---schnapp---

The modification I can see is that the "current source" part of the
differential pair changed from being a single, shared resistor of 100R to
an inductor of 100uH, then splits up into two resistors of 220R,
which are bridged by a 100nF capacitor. The inductor results in a
reactance between 62R (100kHz) and 12k (20MHz) for the input range.

Can you shed a bit of light on why you did those modifications 
and what the intended effect is?


            Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat Jan  9 17:01:31 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Attila,

On 01/09/2016 09:25 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:19:05 +0800
> Li Ang <lllaaa at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>      In some article, I see people use a D-flipflop to sample the input
>> signal with reference clock. When you want implement a mixer what's the
>> difference between D-flipflop and XOR gate?
>
> A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation,
> but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect
> it from a normal mixer (namely having half the energy at the frequeny
> difference and half at the sum).

It's not that wierd. It's a sampler, and thus it acts like a mixer as if 
the signal is spikes, which is just another interpretation of the 
Nyquist frequency aliasing. Meta-stability however creates an 
"interesting" aspect.

> An XOR gate on the other hand, produces a very nice spectrum, given
> you input two clean square wave signals.

Indeed.

An interesting variant of the XOR gate as being used as a mixer is when 
you build a rubidium. One synthesis approach being used is to divide the 
5 MHz OCXO signal with 16 to get 312,5 kHz. Then XORing it with 5 MHz 
produces as one of it's mirror signals 5,3125 MHz which is then fed with 
a step-up signal of 60 MHz or 90 MHz into the SDR diode in the cavity.

A third digital phase-detector is the SR flip-flop. It avoids the 180 
degree phase property (really a triangle wave signal) of the XOR, but 
give a 360 degree phase sawtooth. This can be helpful in certain lock-up 
conditions.

The phase-frequency detector of the 4046 and the like has additional 
flip-flops to remember slipped cycles and forcing the frequency to 
regain that. Those provide a strong frequency lock mechanism with a 
phase detector in one.

>>      When you refer high speed CMOS XOR gate, do you mean 74LVC1G86?
>
> Generally speaking: Faster CMOS better than slower CMOS in terms of phase noise.
> (Though, I have yet to see actual measurements of this)
>
> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
> (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)

Well, you should wire the other parts into passive mode.

Cheers,
Magnus

From richard at karlquist.com  Sat Jan  9 17:45:43 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 14:45:43 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Divider circuit for Rubidium Standard
In-Reply-To: <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>
References: <BAY180-W26E5C2B2381B153EC9824494EA0@phx.gbl>
 <5548428F.7060809@karlquist.com>
 <BAY180-W690011EB43C29319A084AF94D00@phx.gbl> <554A0F6A.10900@febo.com>
 <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <56918D97.4020309@karlquist.com>

On 1/9/2016 12:44 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:

> The purpose of the input circuit is to convert the RF input signal
> into a low-jitter square wave that can drive the PIC clock input.
> The circuit is closely based on the one published by Wenzel at
> http://www.wenzel.com/documents/waveform.html, with modifications
> suggested by Bruce Griffiths and Ulrich Bangert. The revised circuit
> works with inputs as low as -20dBm.

This circuit is very similar to one that was championed by Tom
Faulker of HP/Agilent at the now closed Spokane site.  Tom
measured the circuit at about -171 dBc/Hz.  He was very knowledgeable
about this topic, so we can believe the number.

This is good, because the cited Wenzel document would give me
no confidence whatsoever if that was all I had to go on.  It
reads like it was written by some marketing guy (as opposed to
R&D) who knows just enough to be dangerous.  Other than the
circuit in question, the rest of the document is full of
unreliable information.  Such as how line receivers make great
sine wave to square wave converters.  They are terribly noisy.
IE, the document contains a kernel of truth.  It also has no
quantitative information about the circuit in question or
any other ones discussed.  It's disappointing to see this
published by an otherwise excellent outfit like Wenzel.

The modifications make sense IMHO.  I suspect that the 2N3906's
are good for two reasons:  the low f-t reduces noise bandwidth
and the high current gain reduces noise current.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat Jan  9 17:56:27 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a at kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali 
writes:

>Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
>(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)

Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things
better or worse ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Jan  9 18:53:41 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 18:53:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <3CD654B0-D263-4636-A6B8-CD390DCFF088@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:25 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
>> 
> 
> Generally speaking: Faster CMOS better than slower CMOS in terms of phase noise.
> (Though, I have yet to see actual measurements of this)

The gotcha is that each family gets measured as the parts come out. Thus the data
is spread out over about a 40+ year period. Most of it was taken down in log books
off of a screen ….

Bob

> 
> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
> (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
> 
> 
> 				Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From cfharris at erols.com  Sat Jan  9 17:59:36 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 17:59:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <56915D02.3080508@jwsss.com>
References: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net> <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
 <56915D02.3080508@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <569190D8.3060104@erols.com>

LH is an excellent program, and it needs to be brought into
polite society, by making it run natively on all platforms.

Changing it to Python, and PyQT4, is easy, but there is a lot
of code base to sift through.

Once on Python, and PyQT4, it will run natively everywhere.
Including smartphones and tablets.

-Chuck Harris


jim s wrote:
>
>
> On 1/9/2016 6:36 AM, Chuck Harris wrote:
>> Unfortunately, LH uses a graphics toolkit that was written by
>> John Miles, and it, and he, is windows only.
>>
>> I got started on converting it to PyQT4, but got side tracked.
>>
>> Maybe this year is the year I get all of the stuff I have promised
>> done?
>>
>> -Chuck Harris
>>
>> Ed Armstrong wrote:
>>> Has anyone successfully ran Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B? As it's
>>> not an x86 architecture processor, I assume Wine is no use and a custom compile is
>>> needed. Am I correct? Can any of you suggest where I can learn to do that, I'm rather
>>> new to Linux.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Ed
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
> Depending on the executable, wine runs on ARM.  YMMV.
>
> http://wiki.winehq.org/ARM
>
> Qemu and Dosbox run quite a lot of things I have on Raspberry Pi, and other ARM SOC's
> that I have.
>
> Thanks
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From orin.eman at gmail.com  Sat Jan  9 12:49:15 2016
From: orin.eman at gmail.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 09:49:15 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
References: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net>
	<56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjY7U9sAs7X4n826oXjvCBR4FJJGy7n4SvV1xGDVPv1mWrgag@mail.gmail.com>

Well, you can run Windows 10 on the Pi...

As the question was running LH Server, perhaps it could be compiled as a
"Universal" Windows app.

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 6:36 AM, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately, LH uses a graphics toolkit that was written by
> John Miles, and it, and he, is windows only.
>
> I got started on converting it to PyQT4, but got side tracked.
>
> Maybe this year is the year I get all of the stuff I have promised
> done?
>
> -Chuck Harris
>
>
> Ed Armstrong wrote:
>
>> Has anyone successfully ran Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model
>> B? As it's
>> not an x86 architecture processor, I assume Wine is no use and a custom
>> compile is
>> needed. Am I correct? Can any of you suggest where I can learn to do
>> that, I'm rather
>> new to Linux.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ed
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From chris at chriscaudle.org  Sat Jan  9 16:32:25 2016
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 15:32:25 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
References: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net> <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
Message-ID: <968f28652f873a154eca350eef3d62a5.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

On Sat, January 9, 2016 8:36 am, Chuck Harris wrote:
> Unfortunately, LH uses a graphics toolkit that was written by
> John Miles, and it, and he, is windows only.

Even compiling as just the server only still compiles and links the
graphics toolkit?

-- 
Chris Caudle



From john at miles.io  Sun Jan 10 01:32:20 2016
From: john at miles.io (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 22:32:20 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <968f28652f873a154eca350eef3d62a5.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <56909541.4070204@verizon.net> <56911AD7.7080801@erols.com>
 <968f28652f873a154eca350eef3d62a5.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <04d701d14b70$aae798a0$00b6c9e0$@miles.io>

The server is a console app that uses plain Winsock calls derived from the BSD sockets API, so it could run on anything down to and including an Arduino without too much work.  Porting the GUI client to anything else would be a fair bit of work, though.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris
> Caudle
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 1:32 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
> 
> On Sat, January 9, 2016 8:36 am, Chuck Harris wrote:
> > Unfortunately, LH uses a graphics toolkit that was written by
> > John Miles, and it, and he, is windows only.
> 
> Even compiling as just the server only still compiles and links the
> graphics toolkit?
> 
> --
> Chris Caudle
> 
> 


From attila at kinali.ch  Sun Jan 10 05:01:34 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 11:01:34 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Divider circuit for Rubidium Standard
In-Reply-To: <1169189256.2759165.1452375395612.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>
 <1169189256.2759165.1452375395612.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160110110134.8c92548be64042e12d7f3fa4@kinali.ch>

Moin Bruce,

On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 21:36:35 +0000 (UTC)
Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> Splitting the resistor in 2 and ac coupling the emitters together
> reduces the effects of Vbe and/or base biasing mismatch allowing a more
> symmetric output and/or operation at lower input signal levels.The inductor
> reduces the high frequency variations in the total emitter current. It also
> reduces the tail current noise at high frequencies.


Thanks for the explanation!

One additional question: Why is the bias voltage for the two transistors
derived independently? In my naivite i would have used a single resistive
devider, buffered it with a large enough C and then split that bias voltage
off with a 3.3k resistor each. This would get rid off the bias mismatch.
(though not of the mismatch of the transistors)


			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Sun Jan 10 05:21:23 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 11:21:23 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20160110112123.ba2aa106d4ef8022ae9118c9@kinali.ch>

God morgon,

On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100
Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> > A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation,
> > but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect
> > it from a normal mixer (namely having half the energy at the frequeny
> > difference and half at the sum).
> 
> It's not that wierd. It's a sampler, and thus it acts like a mixer as if 
> the signal is spikes, which is just another interpretation of the 
> Nyquist frequency aliasing. Meta-stability however creates an 
> "interesting" aspect.

Ah right! That also explains my uneasy feeling about it :-)

It's relatively easy to get around metastabilitiy: just add another
couple of D-flipflops in series. Unfortunately, that will only fix
the metastable lingering in-between. It wont fix the edge being at
the wrong time.


> A third digital phase-detector is the SR flip-flop. It avoids the 180 
> degree phase property (really a triangle wave signal) of the XOR, but 
> give a 360 degree phase sawtooth. This can be helpful in certain lock-up 
> conditions.

SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?

> The phase-frequency detector of the 4046 and the like has additional 
> flip-flops to remember slipped cycles and forcing the frequency to 
> regain that. Those provide a strong frequency lock mechanism with a 
> phase detector in one.

Interesting... i have to look into the old datasheets.

> > Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
> > (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
> 
> Well, you should wire the other parts into passive mode.

That would be a waste of good PCB space ;-)

				Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Sun Jan 10 05:24:16 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 11:24:16 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Divider circuit for Rubidium Standard
In-Reply-To: <56918D97.4020309@karlquist.com>
References: <BAY180-W26E5C2B2381B153EC9824494EA0@phx.gbl>
 <5548428F.7060809@karlquist.com>
 <BAY180-W690011EB43C29319A084AF94D00@phx.gbl>
 <554A0F6A.10900@febo.com>
 <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>
 <56918D97.4020309@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <20160110112416.0444d9ea88f0466dd5123ce5@kinali.ch>

Hi Rick,

On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 14:45:43 -0800
"Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:

> This circuit is very similar to one that was championed by Tom
> Faulker of HP/Agilent at the now closed Spokane site.  Tom
> measured the circuit at about -171 dBc/Hz.  He was very knowledgeable
> about this topic, so we can believe the number.

Is this documented anywhere publicly? I would be very interested
to read this.

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Sun Jan 10 05:32:01 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 11:32:01 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>

Moin phk!

On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 +0000
"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> >Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
> >(no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
> 
> Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things
> better or worse ?

Good question. I have no idea.

My first guess would be, that it would only give a slight improvement,
if at all.

The reasoning is the following:
Under the assumption that the noise of all gates is ergodic and stationary,
then averaging the outputs of the gates should reduce the output noise.

But the noise is not truly ergodic and there will be coupling between the
gates (both through the power supply and the outputs), that will change the
noise properties of the gates. Which in turn might lead to positive interference
of the noise, instead of averaging out.

But I have to admit that noise in electronic circuits is for me still
something very unintuitive. And I am more often wrong than right, when
it comes to predicting noise behaviour.

			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 10 08:30:41 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160110112123.ba2aa106d4ef8022ae9118c9@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110112123.ba2aa106d4ef8022ae9118c9@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <56925D01.6030700@rubidium.dyndns.org>

God eftermiddag,

On 01/10/2016 11:21 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> God morgon,
>
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 23:01:31 +0100
> Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>
>>> A D-Flipflop is a rather weird mixer. I have not done the calculation,
>>> but i'm pretty sure that the output is not exactly what you'd expect
>>> it from a normal mixer (namely having half the energy at the frequeny
>>> difference and half at the sum).
>>
>> It's not that wierd. It's a sampler, and thus it acts like a mixer as if
>> the signal is spikes, which is just another interpretation of the
>> Nyquist frequency aliasing. Meta-stability however creates an
>> "interesting" aspect.
>
> Ah right! That also explains my uneasy feeling about it :-)
>
> It's relatively easy to get around metastabilitiy: just add another
> couple of D-flipflops in series. Unfortunately, that will only fix
> the metastable lingering in-between. It wont fix the edge being at
> the wrong time.

Indeed. The second DFF will reduce the noise induced by the 
meta-stability. A small average shift in phase due to average 
meta-stability time-shift isn't usually a bit problem.

However, it's down-mixing abilities is relatively straight-forward.

>> A third digital phase-detector is the SR flip-flop. It avoids the 180
>> degree phase property (really a triangle wave signal) of the XOR, but
>> give a 360 degree phase sawtooth. This can be helpful in certain lock-up
>> conditions.
>
> SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?

A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could have concluded 
that was not what I intended.

A SR-flip-flop with no illegal input states is easy to build from a 74HC00.

>> The phase-frequency detector of the 4046 and the like has additional
>> flip-flops to remember slipped cycles and forcing the frequency to
>> regain that. Those provide a strong frequency lock mechanism with a
>> phase detector in one.
>
> Interesting... i have to look into the old datasheets.

It's really several SR flip-flops interconnected. It's intended to 
simplify design with a "digital" core, it aids in frequency lock as it 
pulls the integrator cap in the right direction stronger than the weak 
beating does on a distance in frequency difference. This way, you 
improve locking time for simple designs. There is other ways to aid the
loop known to the professional.

>>> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
>>> (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
>>
>> Well, you should wire the other parts into passive mode.
>
> That would be a waste of good PCB space ;-)

No. If you add noise through the other parts of the same chip, you will 
waste more PCB space to work around it.

Cheers,
Magnus

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 10 08:46:39 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:46:39 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <569260BF.1000607@rubidium.dyndns.org>



On 01/10/2016 11:32 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> Moin phk!
>
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 +0000
> "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
>>> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
>>> (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
>>
>> Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things
>> better or worse ?
>
> Good question. I have no idea.
>
> My first guess would be, that it would only give a slight improvement,
> if at all.
>
> The reasoning is the following:
> Under the assumption that the noise of all gates is ergodic and stationary,
> then averaging the outputs of the gates should reduce the output noise.
>
> But the noise is not truly ergodic and there will be coupling between the
> gates (both through the power supply and the outputs), that will change the
> noise properties of the gates. Which in turn might lead to positive interference
> of the noise, instead of averaging out.
>
> But I have to admit that noise in electronic circuits is for me still
> something very unintuitive. And I am more often wrong than right, when
> it comes to predicting noise behaviour.

Signals couples so nicely through power-pins, as the parasitic 
inductance work on them. This is also known as ground-bounce. It will 
limit the properties, and already have. In some counters, it was 
"convenient" from a layout perspective to use a double-comparator. The 
ground-bounce formed one of the main limiting factors, so in the next 
generation they used single comparators and a few other tricks and could 
half the noise-limits of the counter.

Few "chips" (rather chip packages) includes internal decoupling caps, 
but it has started to appear for some of the larger onces as it is the 
only way to avoid the issues while pushing speed upwards.

If you feed the same signal to the different XOR gates in the same 
package, wiring might cause some spread, but ground-bounce would connect 
them such that "late" gates would be encouraged by "early" gates. It 
will not be so "independent" anymore.

Sometimes this cross-talk can work for you, but often against you. 
Unless you know exactly what you are doing, isolation is a good thing.

Cheers,
Magnus

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 10 09:12:56 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 09:12:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <B4AA7235-6E8C-4909-88B4-C782234F4FD7@n1k.org>

Hi


> On Jan 10, 2016, at 5:32 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> Moin phk!
> 
> On Sat, 09 Jan 2016 22:56:27 +0000
> "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
>>> Single gate chips better than multi gate chips.
>>> (no interference through the power supply of the different sub-parts)
>> 
>> Would paralleing multiple gates in the same chip make things
>> better or worse ?
> 
> Good question. I have no idea.
> 
> My first guess would be, that it would only give a slight improvement,
> if at all.
> 
> The reasoning is the following:
> Under the assumption that the noise of all gates is ergodic and stationary,
> then averaging the outputs of the gates should reduce the output noise.
> 
> But the noise is not truly ergodic and there will be coupling between the
> gates (both through the power supply and the outputs), that will change the
> noise properties of the gates. Which in turn might lead to positive interference
> of the noise, instead of averaging out.
> 
> But I have to admit that noise in electronic circuits is for me still
> something very unintuitive. And I am more often wrong than right, when
> it comes to predicting noise behavior.

How do the gate outputs combine? 

Often the “pull down” part of the gate is stronger than the “pull up” part of the gate. 
If that’s what happens, you get an odd voting process rather than an average ….
( one gate says low, two gates say high, we go low ….)

Bob


> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jdownj at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 13:25:40 2016
From: jdownj at gmail.com (Nathan Johnson)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 21:25:40 +0300
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
Message-ID: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>

Hello All,
I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut for 
many
more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I am 
wanting
to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I see 
that I
have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent OCXO-based 
device,
a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply accurate 
timing
to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and a 
frequency
counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some higher
frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
So what I have learned so far about each option:
-OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by itself
provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the microwave
operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an adjustment pin 
for a
tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that voltage
without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably build an OCXO 
device
of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money to 
obtain
something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab etc.
-Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not 
traceable in
terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the available
standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better than I am likely 
to
need). The available standards are being re-imported from China, with 
unknown
hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They appear 
to be
power hogs. A $200 gamble.
-GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary 
standards.
Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item# 231803015799 
on the
usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also looked 
at
item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation about 
what's
inside.
Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path? Appriciate 
any
and all input.
Nathan KK4REY

Sent using CloudMagic Email
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]

From richard at karlquist.com  Sun Jan 10 13:42:46 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 10:42:46 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Divider circuit for Rubidium Standard
In-Reply-To: <20160110112416.0444d9ea88f0466dd5123ce5@kinali.ch>
References: <BAY180-W26E5C2B2381B153EC9824494EA0@phx.gbl>
 <5548428F.7060809@karlquist.com>
 <BAY180-W690011EB43C29319A084AF94D00@phx.gbl> <554A0F6A.10900@febo.com>
 <20160109214459.59602e064c7c30fba9806f4c@kinali.ch>
 <56918D97.4020309@karlquist.com>
 <20160110112416.0444d9ea88f0466dd5123ce5@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <5692A626.2080102@karlquist.com>

No, it was just word of mouth within the company.
Somewhere I have a piece of notebook paper
on which Tom drew the circuit.  We did have
internal forums where papers where presented,
but this was never even published internally.
As with all forums, a lot of stuff happens
outside the official forums in the hallways,
or over lunch, etc.  Ya gotta network.
There was probably a great sigh of relief when
I retired, and wouldn't be annoying coworkers
with endless questions any more.

Tom's contribution wasn't the circuit per se.
I used this same basic circuit at Zeta Labs
40 years ago.  I ever remember the PNP transistors
we used: the Fairchild 2N5771.  Those were the days...
Tom's contribution was pointing out the fact that it was
better than the other circuits out there,
and the fact that he gave a number.  It has
been a never ending battle to disabuse low
information designers of line receivers,
comparators, and other low performance solutions.

If you want to do some reading, I vaguely remember
that NIST published some papers on sine to square
at UFFC or PTTI.  Start with Fred Walls for your
search.  Also remember that this circuit, as good
as it is, is a poor mans substitute for the multistage
zero crossing detectors discussed on this forum many
times.

Rick

On 1/10/2016 2:24 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 14:45:43 -0800
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
>
>> This circuit is very similar to one that was championed by Tom
>> Faulker of HP/Agilent at the now closed Spokane site.  Tom
>> measured the circuit at about -171 dBc/Hz.  He was very knowledgeable
>> about this topic, so we can believe the number.
>
> Is this documented anywhere publicly? I would be very interested
> to read this.
>
> 			Attila Kinali
>

From richard at karlquist.com  Sun Jan 10 13:53:57 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 10:53:57 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <B4AA7235-6E8C-4909-88B4-C782234F4FD7@n1k.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>
 <B4AA7235-6E8C-4909-88B4-C782234F4FD7@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <5692A8C5.8070705@karlquist.com>

Phase frequency detectors (starting with the legendary MC4044)
being made out of flip flops, had metastability and/or race
conditions.  Motorola showed a block diagram made of gates,
as if it were combinatorial logic, but because of the feedback,
it is actually a state machine, as described in the MC4044
data sheet.  It had a dead zone around zero phase that came
to light when Fairchild introduced the competing 11C44 PFD
using Eric Breeze's patent to fix the dead zone.  The
11C44 data sheet showed their dead zone, vs Brand M.
Even that improved chip still had a "funny" zone, it just
never went to zero gain.

Fast forward to today, we are now seeing PFD's made
with samplers.  They too have a bunch of issues with
phase noise floors.  None of them come close to a mixer.

In the 5071A, I used a mixer as a phase detector that
had some flip flops only used for acquisition, so they
were non players in terms of phase noise.  I still think
I would do that even if I had to do over 25 years later.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

From attila at kinali.ch  Sun Jan 10 13:56:35 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 19:56:35 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <56925D01.6030700@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110112123.ba2aa106d4ef8022ae9118c9@kinali.ch>
 <56925D01.6030700@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20160110195635.9ddc0bdee904122b21942be4@kinali.ch>

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> > SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?
> 
> A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
> Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could have concluded 
> that was not what I intended.
> 
> A SR-flip-flop with no illegal input states is easy to build from a 74HC00.

The illegal input states were my concern, indeed. And a quick google
didn't show up anything to disperse these....not until I started reading
the 4046 datasheet in detail. 

But there is one thing about the arangement of the SR FF in the 4046[1]
that bothers me:
Although S = R = 1 is valid, it does lead to the output oscillating
between 0 and 1.


			Attila Kinali


[1] Ti CD74HC4046A Datasheet
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd54hc4046a.pdf

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From holrum at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 10 14:06:44 2016
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 19:06:44 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
Message-ID: <BLU181-W39755B157A69BD801B73C5CEC80@phx.gbl>

> Porting the GUI client to anything else would be a fair bit of work, though.
Not all that much work.  There are only a few routines that would need to be supplied for screen, mouse, and serial I/O.  Heather was written to avoid as much OS specific functionality as possible.  The code lists the functions that you need.  Most places in the code that talks to hardware can be found by searching for "def DOS" and VFX ... at one time Heather was small enough to run in DOS.
For the screen, as a minimum, you need a routine to draw a dot and a (monospaced) character.  Ideally you want the screen image to be double buffered (i.e. page flipping).   Serial I/O needs an init routine,  write a byte routine,  check for serial char available,  get serial char.  Mouse needs a get mouse position routine.
Heather already knows about and detects big/little endian number formats.
If somebody is going to do a port,  I would recommend starting with the (as yet unreleased) version 4.






 		 	   		  

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 10 14:42:52 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:42:52 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut for many
> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I am wanting
> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I see that I
> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent OCXO-based device,
> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply accurate timing
> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and a frequency
> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some higher
> frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> So what I have learned so far about each option:
> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by itself
> provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the microwave
> operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an adjustment pin for a
> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that voltage
> without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably build an OCXO device
> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money to obtain
> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab etc.
> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not traceable in
> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the available
> standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better than I am likely to
> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China, with unknown
> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They appear to be
> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary standards.
> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item# 231803015799 on the
> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also looked at
> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation about what's
> inside.

The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to make it work other 
than the power supply. If you dig into the archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.

The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It has the nice feature
of being actively developed. If you can read Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have
information on it. 

Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had good luck with.

A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

combined with a GPS receiver board.  They also are available in a “2 for a bit less” form from the same seller. 

Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty clean 15 MHz output for microwave use.
All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach
in that case is to lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then multiply the
VCXO output to microwaves. 

All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal generator or a counter. All are good enough
for normal HF radio use. 

Bob



> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path? Appriciate any
> and all input.
> Nathan KK4REY
> 
> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From normanlizeth at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 14:08:02 2016
From: normanlizeth at gmail.com (Lizeth Norman)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:08:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUhCTOG+EJyBqmQXL6aqG_vRzjiG9hrEmqF-qFn92Q9Zt0wBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spend reasonable money. Learn, ask questions, rinse and repeat. It's
how a mountain of stuff followed me home. Wife is cool with it.

Electrical fires are a learning experience. Try not to repeat those.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut for many
> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I am
> wanting
> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I see
> that I
> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent OCXO-based
> device,
> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply accurate
> timing
> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and a
> frequency
> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some higher
> frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> So what I have learned so far about each option:
> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by itself
> provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the microwave
> operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an adjustment pin for
> a
> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that voltage
> without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably build an OCXO
> device
> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money to
> obtain
> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab etc.
> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not traceable
> in
> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the available
> standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better than I am likely
> to
> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China, with
> unknown
> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They appear to
> be
> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> standards.
> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item# 231803015799 on
> the
> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also looked at
> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation about
> what's
> inside.
> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path? Appriciate
> any
> and all input.
> Nathan KK4REY
>
> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From rob at nc0b.com  Sun Jan 10 15:35:58 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 20:35:58 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B931FF88@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>

Hi Nathan,

I have had all three types of house standards over time.  For decades I used Sulzer 2.5 and 5.0 MHz standards for my ham shack / lab. See link.  

http://leapsecond.com/museum/sul25-1/ 

Of course there are much more modern and small units today, but it was a exciting to track them against WWVB back in the 1970s and 1980s.  You never wanted them to lose power, or it took weeks for them to settle down again. 

Many of my HP pieces of test equipment have HP 10811 OCXO units in them.  They are very good, even if old, assuming the oven is working correctly.  I think any piece of HP equipment with a 10811 in it will also lock to an external standard.  This is good because it is really touchy to try to set a 10811 right on frequency. (I am assuming you are trying to set it within 1x10^-8 or better.)  

In the mid to late 1990s I bought a NOS Efratom M-100 Rubidium. I wish I knew the date.  See link.
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FREQUENCY-STANDARD-CALIBRATOR-RUBIDIUM-OSCILLATOR-EFRATOM-M-100-AS-IS-BIN-H9-04-/252224570043?hash=item3ab9c182bb:g:HR4AAOSw1XdUXjnS

It has been in operation 24/7 ever since then, and it has very good phase noise and has been within 1x10^-10 all these years.  Who knows why it has been so stable. It has been so good I purchased a Lucent / Efratom Rubidium for my other QTH / Lab. It also is within 10^-10, though I don't run it 24/7.  It takes about 5 minutes to warm up, though it is more stable after an hour if we are really picking nits.  

I have a GPSDO at both locations to check on the accuracy of the Rubidium oscillators periodically.  The phase noise of the Rubidium oscillators and my Trak GPSDO are better than -130 dBc @ 1 kHz offset.  Assuming accuracy of around 1 part in 10^-10 is more than adequate for a house standard, you cannot go wrong with a good Rubidium.

Your first example of a GPSDO on eBay is available from RDR Electronics. You cannot go wrong with them. Skip is an expert on time and frequency equipment, and the company stands behind their sales.  They happen to be in Denver, and I have been to their store many times.  I know nothing about your second option, but those units are on eBay all the time. Considering the support you can get from RDR Electronics, I would go with that if you want a GPSDO. They have Rubidium oscillators, too. 

An HP 8640A or B will not lock to a standard, as the basic oscillator is a cavity. The 8640B can stabilized to its counter, but keeping 8640s working, and not having cracked gears is a challenge. I never heard of an 8650. You might consider an 8657B for a generator. For a counter consider an HP 5335A.  If you need 11 digits, then an HP 5345A is good, but very large and complicated. (I have both.) 

You will need a distribution amplifier for your house standard if you are going to run a lot of equipment off of it (say 6 or more). Otherwise a Mini-Circuits hybrid splitter will work.  (2 way, 3 way or 4 way) I use a 4-way splitter off the Lucent for two 8642A generators and two 3336C generators.  It just depends on the output level of the house standard and how much signal a given piece of equipment needs to lock. An 8657B will likely be good enough as to phase noise for general usage.  If you are trying to test state-of-the-art radios like I do, then there is no affordable used HP generator good enough except the HP 8642A.  Even the 8662A isn't low enough in phase noise to test the absolute top low-phase noise amateur transceivers on the market today. (Flex 6000, Apache ANAN 200, Elecraft K3S or KX3) Keeping 8662A or 8642A synthesizers working is not a piece of cake, so I would stay away from them unless you really need low phase noise generators.  

Good luck, and welcome to the hobby. I got my general in 1961, and it has been a wonderful experience.

73, Rob Sherwood, NC0B 

   


-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Johnson
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 11:26 AM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions



Hello All,
I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut for many more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I am wanting to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I see that I have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent OCXO-based device, a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply accurate timing to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and a frequency counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
So what I have learned so far about each option:
-OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an adjustment pin for a tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably build an OCXO device of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money to obtain something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab etc.
-Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not traceable in terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better than I am likely to need). The available standards are being re-imported from China, with unknown hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They appear to be power hogs. A $200 gamble.
-GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary standards.
Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item# 231803015799 on the usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also looked at item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation about what's inside.
Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path? Appriciate any and all input.
Nathan KK4REY

Sent using CloudMagic Email
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
_______________________________________________
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From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 15:55:36 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 15:55:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>

Nathan,
Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has
been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0
requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works
really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
feeding it.
But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a
built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in
price. But it does just work.
Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator
they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and
can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so
going further isn't really all that helpful.
Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
expect.
First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself acquiring
more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers, better
antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
Good luck
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut for
> many
> > more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I am
> wanting
> > to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I see
> that I
> > have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent OCXO-based
> device,
> > a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply accurate
> timing
> > to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and a
> frequency
> > counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> > In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> > transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some higher
> > frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> > So what I have learned so far about each option:
> > -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by itself
> > provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the microwave
> > operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an adjustment pin
> for a
> > tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that voltage
> > without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably build an
> OCXO device
> > of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money to
> obtain
> > something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab etc.
> > -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> traceable in
> > terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the available
> > standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better than I am
> likely to
> > need). The available standards are being re-imported from China, with
> unknown
> > hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> appear to be
> > power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> > -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> standards.
> > Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> 231803015799 on the
> > usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> looked at
> > item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation about
> what's
> > inside.
>
> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
> make it work other
> than the power supply. If you dig into the archives, there is a *lot* of
> information on them there.
>
> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It has
> the nice feature
> of being actively developed. If you can read Chinese, you can tune in to
> the lists that have
> information on it.
>
> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had good
> luck with.
>
> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>
> combined with a GPS receiver board.  They also are available in a “2 for a
> bit less” form from the same seller.
>
> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty clean
> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach
> in that case is to lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO
> and then multiply the
> VCXO output to microwaves.
>
> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal generator
> or a counter. All are good enough
> for normal HF radio use.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> Appriciate any
> > and all input.
> > Nathan KK4REY
> >
> > Sent using CloudMagic Email
> > [
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
> ]
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From alexpcs at ieee.org  Sun Jan 10 16:08:07 2016
From: alexpcs at ieee.org (Alexander Pummer)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 13:08:07 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160110195635.9ddc0bdee904122b21942be4@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110112123.ba2aa106d4ef8022ae9118c9@kinali.ch>
 <56925D01.6030700@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110195635.9ddc0bdee904122b21942be4@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <5692C837.9010805@ieee.org>

"generate stable high -frequency signals  with d flip-flops as digital 
mixers ans all -IC low frequency phase -locked loop", by R.Treadway and 
L.J. Reed, page 78 Electronic design 1 January 1972
Resistot array denounces D flip-flop  mixer page 184 EDN 12 April 1990
digital frequency subtract or  EDN 1 April 1981
Kamil Kraus: Die Arbeitsweise eines einfachen Digitalmischer, Seite 72 
Elektronik Heft 24, 1980 a very good explanation of the function of the 
digital mixer-- in German
Design ideas; D flip-flop sutracs frequencies by Richard Kochis, 
Hewlett-PackardCo Ft. Collins ,CO, Gerald Flachs , New Mexico State 
University, Las Cruces, END 15 April, 10981 page 149
Robert a Pease National Semiconductor Corp : Four ICs subtract 
frequencies, EDN 1 April 1981
"Digitalis keverofokozat tervezese",  Zombay Frerenc, Radiotechnika, 
Seite 244 # 5 1996,  a complete design of the digital mixer with 
detailed theory and example in three consecutive issue of the magazine 
Radiotechnika -- in Hungarian.
By using that literature I designed many frequency synthesizers 
containing D flip-flops as a digital mixer

73
KJ6 UHN
Alex
[alias Dr.Dipl.Ing. Alexander Pummer, PCS Consultants]
US patents:  many if you are interested I will send you a list


On 1/10/2016 10:56 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
> Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>
>>> SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?
>> A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
>> Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could have concluded
>> that was not what I intended.
>>
>> A SR-flip-flop with no illegal input states is easy to build from a 74HC00.
> The illegal input states were my concern, indeed. And a quick google
> didn't show up anything to disperse these....not until I started reading
> the 4046 datasheet in detail.
>
> But there is one thing about the arangement of the SR FF in the 4046[1]
> that bothers me:
> Although S = R = 1 is valid, it does lead to the output oscillating
> between 0 and 1.
>
>
> 			Attila Kinali
>
>
> [1] Ti CD74HC4046A Datasheet
> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/cd54hc4046a.pdf
>


From rob at nc0b.com  Sun Jan 10 16:31:57 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 21:31:57 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>

Paul,

Your last paragraph was a hoot.  A ham friend of mine recently rented a storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.  Another ham friend used to have four storage  units to store all his "stuff". The disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.  

My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7 towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK.  Need I say more.

Rob
NC0B 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions



Nathan,
Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0 requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps feeding it.
But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in price. But it does just work.
Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so going further isn't really all that helpful.
Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you expect.
First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers, better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
Good luck
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> > I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut 
> > for
> many
> > more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I 
> > am
> wanting
> > to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I 
> > see
> that I
> > have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent 
> > OCXO-based
> device,
> > a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply 
> > accurate
> timing
> > to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and 
> > a
> frequency
> > counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> > In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF 
> > transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some 
> > higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> > So what I have learned so far about each option:
> > -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by 
> > itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the 
> > microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an 
> > adjustment pin
> for a
> > tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that 
> > voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably 
> > build an
> OCXO device
> > of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money 
> > to
> obtain
> > something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab etc.
> > -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> traceable in
> > terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the 
> > available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better 
> > than I am
> likely to
> > need). The available standards are being re-imported from China, 
> > with
> unknown
> > hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> appear to be
> > power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> > -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> standards.
> > Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> 231803015799 on the
> > usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> looked at
> > item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation 
> > about
> what's
> > inside.
>
> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to 
> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the 
> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>
> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It 
> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read 
> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>
> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had 
> good luck with.
>
> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>
> combined with a GPS receiver board.  They also are available in a “2 
> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>
> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty 
> clean
> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to 
> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to 
> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then 
> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>
> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal 
> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> Appriciate any
> > and all input.
> > Nathan KK4REY
> >
> > Sent using CloudMagic Email
> > [
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
> _footer_2
> ]
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



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If this email is spam, report it to
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From alexpcs at ieee.org  Sun Jan 10 16:47:00 2016
From: alexpcs at ieee.org (Alexander Pummer)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 13:47:00 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <5692A8C5.8070705@karlquist.com>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>
 <B4AA7235-6E8C-4909-88B4-C782234F4FD7@n1k.org>
 <5692A8C5.8070705@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <5692D154.6090201@ieee.org>

and there was also a frequency/phase detector from Analog Devices, which 
took care about that dead zone
73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 1/10/2016 10:53 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> Phase frequency detectors (starting with the legendary MC4044)
> being made out of flip flops, had metastability and/or race
> conditions.  Motorola showed a block diagram made of gates,
> as if it were combinatorial logic, but because of the feedback,
> it is actually a state machine, as described in the MC4044
> data sheet.  It had a dead zone around zero phase that came
> to light when Fairchild introduced the competing 11C44 PFD
> using Eric Breeze's patent to fix the dead zone.  The
> 11C44 data sheet showed their dead zone, vs Brand M.
> Even that improved chip still had a "funny" zone, it just
> never went to zero gain.
>
> Fast forward to today, we are now seeing PFD's made
> with samplers.  They too have a bunch of issues with
> phase noise floors.  None of them come close to a mixer.
>
> In the 5071A, I used a mixer as a phase detector that
> had some flip flops only used for acquisition, so they
> were non players in terms of phase noise.  I still think
> I would do that even if I had to do over 25 years later.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4489/11369 - Release Date: 
> 01/10/16


From kd5byb at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 17:06:51 2016
From: kd5byb at gmail.com (Ben Hall)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 16:06:51 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <BLU181-W39755B157A69BD801B73C5CEC80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU181-W39755B157A69BD801B73C5CEC80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5692D5FB.8030502@gmail.com>

On 1/10/2016 1:06 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>> Porting the GUI client to anything else would be a fair bit of
>> work, though.
> Not all that much work.  There are only a few routines that would
> need to be supplied for screen, mouse, and serial I/O.

Hi Mark and all,

How much *skill* is needed to do a port?  I'd love to have a Nortel 
NTBW50AA / NTGS50AA GPSDO source (while the Z3801 continues to work, it 
does fail self-test), but the thought of having yet another Windows PC 
going in the shack gives me hives.  (okay, maybe not that bad, but...)

A Raspberry Pi on the other hand doesn't take up much space, has the 
ability to be remote controlled easily, and would probably lead to me 
purchasing one of the Nortel units.

So I'd love to see a port, but given that my last programming effort was 
FORTRAN 77 and Windows basic (although I'm learning C for the MSP430 at 
the moment) I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it...

thanks much and 73,
ben, kd5byb

From artgodwin at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 18:48:19 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 23:48:19 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
Message-ID: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>

Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
similar models with OCXOs etc.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745

From dk4xp at arcor.de  Sun Jan 10 18:15:26 2016
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 00:15:26 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <5692D154.6090201@ieee.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <95662.1452380187@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20160110113201.a5817645dbb74ff931520e35@kinali.ch>
 <B4AA7235-6E8C-4909-88B4-C782234F4FD7@n1k.org>
 <5692A8C5.8070705@karlquist.com> <5692D154.6090201@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <5692E60E.9050608@arcor.de>

Am 10.01.2016 um 22:47 schrieb Alexander Pummer:
> and there was also a frequency/phase detector from Analog Devices, 
> which took care about that dead zone

AD9901.

> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
73, Gerhard, DK4XP

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sun Jan 10 19:52:56 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 00:52:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Divider circuit for Rubidium Standard
In-Reply-To: <5692A626.2080102@karlquist.com>
References: <5692A626.2080102@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <1299564363.3098699.1452473576525.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Anything like the pnp + diode circuit shown in HP application note 301-1?
Bruce
 

    On Monday, 11 January 2016 8:00 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
 

 No, it was just word of mouth within the company.
Somewhere I have a piece of notebook paper
on which Tom drew the circuit.  We did have
internal forums where papers where presented,
but this was never even published internally.
As with all forums, a lot of stuff happens
outside the official forums in the hallways,
or over lunch, etc.  Ya gotta network.
There was probably a great sigh of relief when
I retired, and wouldn't be annoying coworkers
with endless questions any more.

Tom's contribution wasn't the circuit per se.
I used this same basic circuit at Zeta Labs
40 years ago.  I ever remember the PNP transistors
we used: the Fairchild 2N5771.  Those were the days...
Tom's contribution was pointing out the fact that it was
better than the other circuits out there,
and the fact that he gave a number.  It has
been a never ending battle to disabuse low
information designers of line receivers,
comparators, and other low performance solutions.

If you want to do some reading, I vaguely remember
that NIST published some papers on sine to square
at UFFC or PTTI.  Start with Fred Walls for your
search.  Also remember that this circuit, as good
as it is, is a poor mans substitute for the multistage
zero crossing detectors discussed on this forum many
times.

Rick

On 1/10/2016 2:24 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> On Sat, 9 Jan 2016 14:45:43 -0800
> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
>
>> This circuit is very similar to one that was championed by Tom
>> Faulker of HP/Agilent at the now closed Spokane site.  Tom
>> measured the circuit at about -171 dBc/Hz.  He was very knowledgeable
>> about this topic, so we can believe the number.
>
> Is this documented anywhere publicly? I would be very interested
> to read this.
>
>             Attila Kinali
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From djl at montana.com  Sun Jan 10 19:12:57 2016
From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 17:12:57 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
Message-ID: <2c4c31962c342b7172dc912473482b6f.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>

I see I am in Really Good Company
Don

Rob Sherwood.
> Paul,
>
> Your last paragraph was a hoot.  A ham friend of mine recently rented a
> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.  Another
> ham friend used to have four storage  units to store all his "stuff". The
> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>
> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7 towers, 13
> yagis, etc. when I am SK.  Need I say more.
>
> Rob
> NC0B
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>
>
>
> Nathan,
> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has been
> shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0 requires
> a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works really well
> and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps feeding it.
> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a built
> in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in price. But
> it does just work.
> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your description
> not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator they all are
> great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and can actually be
> amazing. Not cheap at all though.
> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so going
> further isn't really all that helpful.
> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
> expect.
> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself acquiring
> more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers, better
> antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
> Good luck
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> > On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello All,
>> > I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
>> > for
>> many
>> > more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
>> > am
>> wanting
>> > to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
>> > see
>> that I
>> > have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
>> > OCXO-based
>> device,
>> > a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
>> > accurate
>> timing
>> > to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
>> > a
>> frequency
>> > counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
>> > In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
>> > transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
>> > higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
>> > So what I have learned so far about each option:
>> > -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
>> > itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
>> > microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
>> > adjustment pin
>> for a
>> > tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
>> > voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
>> > build an
>> OCXO device
>> > of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
>> > to
>> obtain
>> > something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab etc.
>> > -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
>> traceable in
>> > terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
>> > available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
>> > than I am
>> likely to
>> > need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
>> > with
>> unknown
>> > hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
>> appear to be
>> > power hogs. A $200 gamble.
>> > -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
>> standards.
>> > Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
>> 231803015799 on the
>> > usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
>> looked at
>> > item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
>> > about
>> what's
>> > inside.
>>
>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>>
>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>>
>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
>> good luck with.
>>
>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>>
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>
>> combined with a GPS receiver board.  They also are available in a “2
>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>>
>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
>> clean
>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>>
>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> > Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
>> Appriciate any
>> > and all input.
>> > Nathan KK4REY
>> >
>> > Sent using CloudMagic Email
>> > [
>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
>> _footer_2
>> ]
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> --
> If this email is spam, report it to
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
-------------------------------
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



From holrum at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 10 19:31:26 2016
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 00:31:26 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
Message-ID: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>

> I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it... 
Probably not right now...  it's not so much as knowing C,  it's knowing the ins and out of knowing how your operating system (Windows, Linux, etc) interfaces with your hardware (display, mouse, serial port, keyboard).   Basically, if you have to ask the question,  your are probably not ready to attempt the task.
Lady Heather is a pretty simple program,  but it is rather long and divided into 5 files.  Just getting set up to compile it in a new environment can be quite a challenge to the un-initiated (acouple of toupees worth of hair pulling once you can compile and link a simple "hello world" program.  
Then you need to figure out how to draw dots and characters,  talk to the serial port,  talk to the mouse, talk to the keyboard.   Pretty basic stuff once you are familiar with your operating system/environment,  but not something most people do everyday...   		 	   		  

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 20:28:40 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 20:28:40 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>

Good thread everyone.
Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
Though frankly even neo6s play well.
If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets you a
ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats shipped
with the units.
Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
Good luck.
To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn thing is
this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
sure.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Your last paragraph was a hoot.  A ham friend of mine recently rented a
> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.  Another
> ham friend used to have four storage  units to store all his "stuff". The
> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>
> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK.  Need I say more.
>
> Rob
> NC0B
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>
>
>
> Nathan,
> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has
> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0
> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works
> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
> feeding it.
> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a
> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in
> price. But it does just work.
> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator
> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and
> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so
> going further isn't really all that helpful.
> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
> expect.
> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers,
> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
> Good luck
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > > On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > > I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
> > > for
> > many
> > > more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
> > > am
> > wanting
> > > to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
> > > see
> > that I
> > > have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
> > > OCXO-based
> > device,
> > > a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
> > > accurate
> > timing
> > > to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
> > > a
> > frequency
> > > counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> > > In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> > > transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
> > > higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> > > So what I have learned so far about each option:
> > > -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
> > > itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
> > > microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
> > > adjustment pin
> > for a
> > > tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
> > > voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
> > > build an
> > OCXO device
> > > of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
> > > to
> > obtain
> > > something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
> etc.
> > > -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> > traceable in
> > > terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
> > > available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
> > > than I am
> > likely to
> > > need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
> > > with
> > unknown
> > > hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> > appear to be
> > > power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> > > -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> > standards.
> > > Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> > 231803015799 on the
> > > usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> > looked at
> > > item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
> > > about
> > what's
> > > inside.
> >
> > The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
> > make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
> > archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
> >
> > The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
> > has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
> > Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
> >
> > Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
> > good luck with.
> >
> > A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
> >
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
> > geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> >
> > combined with a GPS receiver board.  They also are available in a “2
> > for a bit less” form from the same seller.
> >
> > Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
> > clean
> > 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> > All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
> > multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
> > lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
> > multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
> >
> > All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
> > generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > > Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> > Appriciate any
> > > and all input.
> > > Nathan KK4REY
> > >
> > > Sent using CloudMagic Email
> > > [
> > https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
> > _footer_2
> > ]
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> --
> If this email is spam, report it to
>
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sun Jan 10 20:35:56 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 20:35:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>

What little I can tell is they are telco references so there may be
something good inside OCXO or RB. It looks like it runs on -48VDC from the
ebay pix. Its output could be any of the typical telco references that are
not 5 or 10 MHz. These are pure guesses. The Price seems reasonable.
Good luck
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 10 22:00:05 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 22:00:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>

Hi

Unless we are looking at different auctions, that one appears to want 13.8 V at <= 5A
as the supply. 

The BNC’s are also a fairly rare item in the Telco inventory (but not unheard of).

If I had to bet, I’d say it’s a piece of mobile video gear. I would not bet anything over
about a nickel on that being correct. It’s very much a mystery item other than possibly 
having an offset frequency translation function. 

Bob

> On Jan 10, 2016, at 8:35 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> What little I can tell is they are telco references so there may be
> something good inside OCXO or RB. It looks like it runs on -48VDC from the
> ebay pix. Its output could be any of the typical telco references that are
> not 5 or 10 MHz. These are pure guesses. The Price seems reasonable.
> Good luck
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
>> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>> 
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 10 22:28:54 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 04:28:54 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <20160110195635.9ddc0bdee904122b21942be4@kinali.ch>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110112123.ba2aa106d4ef8022ae9118c9@kinali.ch>
 <56925D01.6030700@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110195635.9ddc0bdee904122b21942be4@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <56932176.1050603@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Moin,

On 01/10/2016 07:56 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
> Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>
>>> SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?
>>
>> A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
>> Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could have concluded
>> that was not what I intended.
>>
>> A SR-flip-flop with no illegal input states is easy to build from a 74HC00.
>
> The illegal input states were my concern, indeed. And a quick google
> didn't show up anything to disperse these....not until I started reading
> the 4046 datasheet in detail.

That's one place to look yes.

> But there is one thing about the arangement of the SR FF in the 4046[1]
> that bothers me:
> Although S = R = 1 is valid, it does lead to the output oscillating
> between 0 and 1.

Well, the dynamics of the gates will convert the rising edges on S and R 
into short pulses before hitting the SR core. That is what the 
additional AND gates does if you look at figure 1.

The pulses on Sd and Rd will be about three gate-delays long.

If the Sd and Rd '1' pulses overlap, then it becomes a bit hairer to 
analyze the stability.

However, this works pretty well in reality. Rather than having the +/- 
90 degree property of the XOR gate (which has a triangle phase-response, 
which doesn't always is helpful) it has a +/- 180 degree sawtooth 
phase-response.

Cheers,
Magnus

From tractorb at ihug.co.nz  Sun Jan 10 23:59:18 2016
From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:59:18 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <41D5C70D00734F5AA8E8D04291D72824@athlon3200>

Tait is a major mobile comms manufacturer-head office is here in 
Christchurch, NZ-a couple of miles down the road from me.
 The T801 is/was often used in simulcast systems (which seem to be peculiar 
to the UK)  to lock up several base station equipments to a common 
reference-which is usually a 12.8 MHz high quality OCXO.  But I suggest you 
ask a few pertinent questions of the vendor to find out more about that 
particular box, as it may be slightly different, depending on where it came 
from.
 DaveB, NZ



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Camp" <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tait reference


> Hi
>
> Unless we are looking at different auctions, that one appears to want 13.8 
> V at <= 5A
> as the supply.
>
> The BNC’s are also a fairly rare item in the Telco inventory (but not 
> unheard of).
>
> If I had to bet, I’d say it’s a piece of mobile video gear. I would not 
> bet anything over
> about a nickel on that being correct. It’s very much a mystery item other 
> than possibly
> having an offset frequency translation function.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 8:35 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What little I can tell is they are telco references so there may be
>> something good inside OCXO or RB. It looks like it runs on -48VDC from 
>> the
>> ebay pix. Its output could be any of the typical telco references that 
>> are
>> not 5 or 10 MHz. These are pure guesses. The Price seems reasonable.
>> Good luck
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin at gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
>>> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there. 


From jherrero at hvsistemas.es  Mon Jan 11 03:55:46 2016
From: jherrero at hvsistemas.es (Javier Herrero)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 09:55:46 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <56936E12.3000904@hvsistemas.es>

Hello,

Tait T800 is a series of mobile radio repeaters, so probably the T801 
could be a unit intended for iso-frequency networks, in which there are 
several repeaters are distributed in a wide area operating all at the 
same frequencies with a very tight tolerance. BNCs and 13.8V power 
supplies are very common in the mobile radio networks world.

Regards,

Javier

On 11/01/2016 4:00, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> Unless we are looking at different auctions, that one appears to want 13.8 V at <= 5A
> as the supply.
>
> The BNC’s are also a fairly rare item in the Telco inventory (but not unheard of).
>
> If I had to bet, I’d say it’s a piece of mobile video gear. I would not bet anything over
> about a nickel on that being correct. It’s very much a mystery item other than possibly
> having an offset frequency translation function.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 8:35 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> What little I can tell is they are telco references so there may be
>> something good inside OCXO or RB. It looks like it runs on -48VDC from the
>> ebay pix. Its output could be any of the typical telco references that are
>> not 5 or 10 MHz. These are pure guesses. The Price seems reasonable.
>> Good luck
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
>>> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Mon Jan 11 06:18:35 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 06:18:35 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20160111141838.Icp037wk@smtp1o.mail.yandex.net>

Adrian wrote:

>Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to 
>have similar models with OCXOs etc.

Tait is a manufacturer of mobile communications gear in New 
Zealand.  The T801 was part of a discontinued "quasi-synchronous 
communications system" -- a form of simulcasting on the same 
frequency by transmitters at different locations, to fill in dead 
spots.  Tait's application was utility and public service mobile 
radios (not radio broadcasting, where this scheme has also been 
used).  Here is Tait's basic description:

>The Tait Quasi-Synchronous Communication System works by 
>broadcasting simultaneously from several transmitters on the same 
>frequency. The transmitters then operate as a single transmitter 
>giving superior coverage.
>
>A Tait T801 Frequency Referenct Module acurately maintains the 
>frequency of the transmitters at each site.
>
>Where required, the T801 allows small frequency offsets to prevent 
>the occurrence of static nulls in the overlap area.
>
>The T801 module may be driven from one of a number of frequency 
>references, such as:
>-- Rubidium frequency standard
>-- Broadcast frequency standard
>-- Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillators (OCXOs)
>-- GPS Caesium Clock

This suggests that the T801 does not have an internal frequency 
reference, but rather requires a precision external reference to 
function.  (It has a jack labeled "INTERNAL STD OUTPUT," but that may 
simply be a reference that is derived from the external standard, or 
a backup crystal oscillator to keep the transmitter more or less on 
frequency if the external reference signal is lost.)

Best regards,

Charles



From sjwiseman at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 06:27:20 2016
From: sjwiseman at gmail.com (Steve Wiseman)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:27:20 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CALobHez9Oguy+Z__bW_rV0CRqTgOScsFTpDADCF2hTo4FuyNsw@mail.gmail.com>

http://download.wrx.sk/pdfs/tait/Networks/Quasi.pdf says:

Quasi-Sync works by broadcasting simultaneously from several
transmitters on the same frequency. The transmitters then operate as a
single transmitter giving superior coverage. A Tait T801 Frequency
Reference Module accurately maintains the frequency of the
transmitters at each site. Where required, the T801 allows small
frequency offsets to prevent the occurrence of static nulls in the
overlap area. The T801 module may be driven from one of a number of
frequency references, such as; • Rubidium frequency standard •
Broadcast frequency standard • Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillators
(OCXOs) • GPS caesium clock

This doesn't sound like a reference source, or generally useful.

Steve

From artgodwin at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 08:11:18 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 13:11:18 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <20160111141838.Icp037wk@smtp1o.mail.yandex.net>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
 <20160111141838.Icp037wk@smtp1o.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <CALiMYrsKXx2m72pTZzFnPEx0Y9icgnY+PhuD4VfFsUYunCC92Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, i found that description and it put me off buying one. But there are
also references on the web (including time-nuts archive) to surplus T801s
with rubidium sources.

Anyway, I took a punt and bought one.
So I'll find out soon :).


On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
wrote:

> Adrian wrote:
>
> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
>> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>>
>
> Tait is a manufacturer of mobile communications gear in New Zealand.  The
> T801 was part of a discontinued "quasi-synchronous communications system"
> -- a form of simulcasting on the same frequency by transmitters at
> different locations, to fill in dead spots.  Tait's application was utility
> and public service mobile radios (not radio broadcasting, where this scheme
> has also been used).  Here is Tait's basic description:
>
> The Tait Quasi-Synchronous Communication System works by broadcasting
>> simultaneously from several transmitters on the same frequency. The
>> transmitters then operate as a single transmitter giving superior coverage.
>>
>> A Tait T801 Frequency Referenct Module acurately maintains the frequency
>> of the transmitters at each site.
>>
>> Where required, the T801 allows small frequency offsets to prevent the
>> occurrence of static nulls in the overlap area.
>>
>> The T801 module may be driven from one of a number of frequency
>> references, such as:
>> -- Rubidium frequency standard
>> -- Broadcast frequency standard
>> -- Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillators (OCXOs)
>> -- GPS Caesium Clock
>>
>
> This suggests that the T801 does not have an internal frequency reference,
> but rather requires a precision external reference to function.  (It has a
> jack labeled "INTERNAL STD OUTPUT," but that may simply be a reference that
> is derived from the external standard, or a backup crystal oscillator to
> keep the transmitter more or less on frequency if the external reference
> signal is lost.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Mon Jan 11 01:18:28 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 01:18:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <56934934.8000807@erols.com>

If you stick to something like QT4, which is either python,
or C++, it is rather easy.

QT4 has everything set up for you already, and a compiler for
the graphics screens.  You create the basic screen in the
designer, and tell it what you want it to do when a mouse
hovers, clicks, drags, etc... and it does it.

QT4 also has all of the fancy graphics routines you could
imagine wanting... including routines to plot graphs, polar,
linear, log, bar... whatever.

Tons of tutorials are available on line... as are lots of
complete projects... open source and all that.

QT4 is oriented towards C++, but it has been ported to python.
This opens up a broad world of mathematical and plotting libraries,
as well as USB, IP stacks, printing routines, everything.  The
big problem is the tutorials are for C++, and there are some
pretty significant differences between C++ and python.

Life would have been 1000% easier for Mark and John if they
had used QT4 in the first place.... Especially Mark, as his
original work was for DOS, which needed extreme hand holding
for every little thing.

The biggest problem I found was not getting totally confused
by the extreme number of #ifdef statements that made it work
on this, or that variation of DOS, 'Doze, debug...

-Chuck Harris

Mark Sims wrote:
>> I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it...
> Probably not right now...  it's not so much as knowing C,  it's knowing the ins
> and out of knowing how your operating system (Windows, Linux, etc) interfaces with
> your hardware (display, mouse, serial port, keyboard).   Basically, if you have to
> ask the question,  your are probably not ready to attempt the task. Lady Heather
> is a pretty simple program,  but it is rather long and divided into 5 files.  Just
> getting set up to compile it in a new environment can be quite a challenge to the
> un-initiated (acouple of toupees worth of hair pulling once you can compile and
> link a simple "hello world" program. Then you need to figure out how to draw dots
> and characters,  talk to the serial port,  talk to the mouse, talk to the
> keyboard.   Pretty basic stuff once you are familiar with your operating
> system/environment,  but not something most people do everyday...
> _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list --
> time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the
> instructions there.
>

From jdownj at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 05:40:04 2016
From: jdownj at gmail.com (Nathan Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 13:40:04 +0300
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>

I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination, I don't
see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for that, or is
there a website?
Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am aware that the
8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on the usual
site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge investment for a
piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up for that
kind of challenge until I do.
I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix scope
collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a year. There
is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm pretty
sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the moment, so
it's not that bad... Yet!

Nathan KK4REY
Sent using CloudMagic Email
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
Good thread everyone.
Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
Though frankly even neo6s play well.
If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets you a
ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats shipped
with the units.
Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
Good luck.
To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn thing is
this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
sure.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units. Another
> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff". The
> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>
> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
>
> Rob
> NC0B
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>
>
>
> Nathan,
> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has
> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0
> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works
> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
> feeding it.
> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a
> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in
> price. But it does just work.
> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator
> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and
> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so
> going further isn't really all that helpful.
> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
> expect.
> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers,
> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
> Good luck
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > > On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > > I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
> > > for
> > many
> > > more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
> > > am
> > wanting
> > > to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
> > > see
> > that I
> > > have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
> > > OCXO-based
> > device,
> > > a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
> > > accurate
> > timing
> > > to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
> > > a
> > frequency
> > > counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> > > In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> > > transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
> > > higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> > > So what I have learned so far about each option:
> > > -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
> > > itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
> > > microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
> > > adjustment pin
> > for a
> > > tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
> > > voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
> > > build an
> > OCXO device
> > > of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
> > > to
> > obtain
> > > something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
> etc.
> > > -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> > traceable in
> > > terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
> > > available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
> > > than I am
> > likely to
> > > need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
> > > with
> > unknown
> > > hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> > appear to be
> > > power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> > > -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> > standards.
> > > Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> > 231803015799 on the
> > > usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> > looked at
> > > item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
> > > about
> > what's
> > > inside.
> >
> > The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
> > make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
> > archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
> >
> > The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
> > has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
> > Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
> >
> > Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
> > good luck with.
> >
> > A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
> >
> >
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
> > geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> >
> > combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
> > for a bit less” form from the same seller.
> >
> > Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
> > clean
> > 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> > All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
> > multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
> > lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
> > multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
> >
> > All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
> > generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > > Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> > Appriciate any
> > > and all input.
> > > Nathan KK4REY
> > >
> > > Sent using CloudMagic Email
> > > [
> > https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
> > _footer_2
> > ]
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> --
> If this email is spam, report it to
>
>
https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From lllaaa at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 06:51:17 2016
From: lllaaa at gmail.com (Li Ang)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 19:51:17 +0800
Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD - analog multiplier vs. diode mixer ?
In-Reply-To: <56932176.1050603@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <47099.1452023793@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <553575724.582265.1452024437677.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <568DCDAF.4020803@karlquist.com>
 <20160107133555.bec13c9c7ea076154f6412bb@kinali.ch>
 <08F5BD8E-5B29-417C-8657-B9B76DC0AA0B@n1k.org>
 <568FEF0A.8090409@karlquist.com>
 <B0320D10-ABF1-410E-9CEE-F1796CA35F67@n1k.org>
 <CAFnk9UQ4U8fKMiujmpY5R=5yFDhMGT5sMYK+O1Pfx=3PgQ6HYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160109212523.39180e2b7a788fe1ee2d7a3a@kinali.ch>
 <5691833B.5090401@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110112123.ba2aa106d4ef8022ae9118c9@kinali.ch>
 <56925D01.6030700@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160110195635.9ddc0bdee904122b21942be4@kinali.ch>
 <56932176.1050603@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CAFnk9USuSU52UFPxY_nkXxHq=2RDnQyg0fmHrRBrxaS+xowBHw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi
 Thanks to all the information here. I can put more items to my experiment
list.


Regads
Li Ang, BI7LNQ

2016-01-11 11:28 GMT+08:00 Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>:

> Moin,
>
> On 01/10/2016 07:56 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 14:30:41 +0100
>> Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>>
>> SR-flipflop? Are you refering to the JK-FF phase detector or the PFD?
>>>>
>>>
>>> A straight SR-flipflop. I would have written JK-FF or PFD if I meant it.
>>> Also, as I mentioned the PFD directly after, you could have concluded
>>> that was not what I intended.
>>>
>>> A SR-flip-flop with no illegal input states is easy to build from a
>>> 74HC00.
>>>
>>
>> The illegal input states were my concern, indeed. And a quick google
>> didn't show up anything to disperse these....not until I started reading
>> the 4046 datasheet in detail.
>>
>
> That's one place to look yes.
>
> But there is one thing about the arangement of the SR FF in the 4046[1]
>> that bothers me:
>> Although S = R = 1 is valid, it does lead to the output oscillating
>> between 0 and 1.
>>
>
> Well, the dynamics of the gates will convert the rising edges on S and R
> into short pulses before hitting the SR core. That is what the additional
> AND gates does if you look at figure 1.
>
> The pulses on Sd and Rd will be about three gate-delays long.
>
> If the Sd and Rd '1' pulses overlap, then it becomes a bit hairer to
> analyze the stability.
>
> However, this works pretty well in reality. Rather than having the +/- 90
> degree property of the XOR gate (which has a triangle phase-response, which
> doesn't always is helpful) it has a +/- 180 degree sawtooth phase-response.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From stephen at tompsett.net  Mon Jan 11 09:12:40 2016
From: stephen at tompsett.net (Stephen Tompsett)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 14:12:40 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <20160111141838.Icp037wk@smtp1o.mail.yandex.net>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
 <20160111141838.Icp037wk@smtp1o.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <CAD=109nK+pvgv=4e8cZ7diHaC1xo07mJK1JcPO1qMAdytCT37g@mail.gmail.com>

The T801 units I have seen in the UK contained a rubidium 10MHz reference
(FRS form factor) and a synthesizer that could produce several outputs of a
nominal 12,8MHz, but which could be individually offset slightly to allow
for precise offsetting of the transmitter frequencies by a few Hz for use
in a quasi-synch PMR system.

On 11 January 2016 at 11:18, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
wrote:

> Adrian wrote:
>
> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
>> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>>
>
> Tait is a manufacturer of mobile communications gear in New Zealand.  The
> T801 was part of a discontinued "quasi-synchronous communications system"
> -- a form of simulcasting on the same frequency by transmitters at
> different locations, to fill in dead spots.  Tait's application was utility
> and public service mobile radios (not radio broadcasting, where this scheme
> has also been used).  Here is Tait's basic description:
>
> The Tait Quasi-Synchronous Communication System works by broadcasting
>> simultaneously from several transmitters on the same frequency. The
>> transmitters then operate as a single transmitter giving superior coverage.
>>
>> A Tait T801 Frequency Referenct Module acurately maintains the frequency
>> of the transmitters at each site.
>>
>> Where required, the T801 allows small frequency offsets to prevent the
>> occurrence of static nulls in the overlap area.
>>
>> The T801 module may be driven from one of a number of frequency
>> references, such as:
>> -- Rubidium frequency standard
>> -- Broadcast frequency standard
>> -- Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillators (OCXOs)
>> -- GPS Caesium Clock
>>
>
> This suggests that the T801 does not have an internal frequency reference,
> but rather requires a precision external reference to function.  (It has a
> jack labeled "INTERNAL STD OUTPUT," but that may simply be a reference that
> is derived from the external standard, or a backup crystal oscillator to
> keep the transmitter more or less on frequency if the external reference
> signal is lost.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Stephen Tompsett

From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Mon Jan 11 10:29:54 2016
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 15:29:54 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
 <20160111141838.Icp037wk@smtp1o.mail.yandex.net>
 <CALiMYrsKXx2m72pTZzFnPEx0Y9icgnY+PhuD4VfFsUYunCC92Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6ABBE9CC9AD94B68B365CA50C7BEFAA9@gnat>

Its difficult to say unless you can contact an ex Tait dealer who maintained 
a Local authority or Utility scheme. A similar unit by Pye/Philips I have 
knowledge of, was the HS400. This contained a Toyocom 5MHz OCXO which was 
used to lock a crystal producing the required excitation for the (analogue) 
transmitter. There were two reasons for the offset, one was to avoid static 
nulls were two overlapping areas had out of phase signals, and the offset 
needed to be more than 20Hz (avoids flutter effects from the beats)and less 
than 50Hz to avoid confusing the CTCSS decoders (tone squelch).

However later Tait gear in the 800 series was synthersized, I believe, so 
this may be an stable reference source (OCXO or Rb) which could be daisy 
chained to all the channel transmitters in the site. Rubidium is not 
strictly necessary but was being installed in the 90s in some Police 
systems. In fact the Rapco GPSDOs available on eBay some couple of years ago 
came out, I believe, of London's Met Police system when they went digital.

Alan
G3NYK

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Godwin" <artgodwin at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tait reference


> Yes, i found that description and it put me off buying one. But there are
> also references on the web (including time-nuts archive) to surplus T801s
> with rubidium sources.
>
> Anyway, I took a punt and bought one.
> So I'll find out soon :).
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Charles Steinmetz 
> <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Adrian wrote:
>>
>> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to have
>>> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>>>
>>
>> Tait is a manufacturer of mobile communications gear in New Zealand.  The
>> T801 was part of a discontinued "quasi-synchronous communications system"
>> -- a form of simulcasting on the same frequency by transmitters at
>> different locations, to fill in dead spots.  Tait's application was 
>> utility
>> and public service mobile radios (not radio broadcasting, where this 
>> scheme
>> has also been used).  Here is Tait's basic description:
>>
>> The Tait Quasi-Synchronous Communication System works by broadcasting
>>> simultaneously from several transmitters on the same frequency. The
>>> transmitters then operate as a single transmitter giving superior 
>>> coverage.
>>>
>>> A Tait T801 Frequency Referenct Module acurately maintains the frequency
>>> of the transmitters at each site.
>>>
>>> Where required, the T801 allows small frequency offsets to prevent the
>>> occurrence of static nulls in the overlap area.
>>>
>>> The T801 module may be driven from one of a number of frequency
>>> references, such as:
>>> -- Rubidium frequency standard
>>> -- Broadcast frequency standard
>>> -- Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillators (OCXOs)
>>> -- GPS Caesium Clock
>>>
>>
>> This suggests that the T801 does not have an internal frequency 
>> reference,
>> but rather requires a precision external reference to function.  (It has 
>> a
>> jack labeled "INTERNAL STD OUTPUT," but that may simply be a reference 
>> that
>> is derived from the external standard, or a backup crystal oscillator to
>> keep the transmitter more or less on frequency if the external reference
>> signal is lost.)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there. 


From david.partridge at perdrix.co.uk  Mon Jan 11 10:40:45 2016
From: david.partridge at perdrix.co.uk (David C. Partridge)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 15:40:45 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <CAD=109nK+pvgv=4e8cZ7diHaC1xo07mJK1JcPO1qMAdytCT37g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALiMYrv3i4rSBg7Zouffi5v-VYebwMEspG4pF_BP=FQp2mZuPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjRrnwa=JB48CjF7S5=60Xj6j2aJX6S+tVDHh0YZccWYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B9D9AFB9-08C4-4AAA-AF35-717108647140@n1k.org>
 <20160111141838.Icp037wk@smtp1o.mail.yandex.net>
 <CAD=109nK+pvgv=4e8cZ7diHaC1xo07mJK1JcPO1qMAdytCT37g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01d14c86$70d34e40$5279eac0$@perdrix.co.uk>

Is it possible to tell by looking at the back of the unit to determine if an Rb is fitted?

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Tompsett
Sent: 11 January 2016 14:13
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tait reference

The T801 units I have seen in the UK contained a rubidium 10MHz reference (FRS form factor) and a synthesizer that could produce several outputs of a nominal 12,8MHz, but which could be individually offset slightly to allow for precise offsetting of the transmitter frequencies by a few Hz for use in a quasi-synch PMR system.

On 11 January 2016 at 11:18, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
wrote:

> Adrian wrote:
>
> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to 
> have
>> similar models with OCXOs etc.
>>
>
> Tait is a manufacturer of mobile communications gear in New Zealand.  
> The
> T801 was part of a discontinued "quasi-synchronous communications system"
> -- a form of simulcasting on the same frequency by transmitters at 
> different locations, to fill in dead spots.  Tait's application was 
> utility and public service mobile radios (not radio broadcasting, 
> where this scheme has also been used).  Here is Tait's basic description:
>
> The Tait Quasi-Synchronous Communication System works by broadcasting
>> simultaneously from several transmitters on the same frequency. The 
>> transmitters then operate as a single transmitter giving superior coverage.
>>
>> A Tait T801 Frequency Referenct Module acurately maintains the 
>> frequency of the transmitters at each site.
>>
>> Where required, the T801 allows small frequency offsets to prevent 
>> the occurrence of static nulls in the overlap area.
>>
>> The T801 module may be driven from one of a number of frequency 
>> references, such as:
>> -- Rubidium frequency standard
>> -- Broadcast frequency standard
>> -- Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillators (OCXOs)
>> -- GPS Caesium Clock
>>
>
> This suggests that the T801 does not have an internal frequency 
> reference, but rather requires a precision external reference to 
> function.  (It has a jack labeled "INTERNAL STD OUTPUT," but that may 
> simply be a reference that is derived from the external standard, or a 
> backup crystal oscillator to keep the transmitter more or less on 
> frequency if the external reference signal is lost.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Stephen Tompsett
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon Jan 11 10:41:22 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:41:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
Message-ID: <52a0d9.7b253e8.43c52721@aol.com>

Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to  have
similar models with OCXOs etc.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
 
Hi Adrian,
 
The T801 first seems to have hit the UK surplus market around  2005/2006, I 
was told a batch of a couple of hundred, and units from that  release were 
still trickling through until around 2011 at least.
These were released by West Yorkshire Police when updating their UHF  
mobile network and did contain rubidium standards.
 
The T801 contains dual nominal 12.8MHz  synthesisers with very fine 
switched preset adjustment for base  station synchronisation. These are locked to 
an  external reference and can accept selected integer frequencies  from 1 to 
10Mhz and also 12.8MHz.
If the internal 10MHz rubidium module is fitted and used as the  reference 
then a short BNC link is required to couple the internal  reference output 
to the external reference input.
 
These were originally sold on Ebay with particular reference to the  
rubidium module, for most purchasers the 12.8MHz synthesiser board would  probably 
have been of little interest, so I'm surprised to see no reference to  the 
rubidium module with the several recent auctions. This may be due to  lack 
of familiarity on the part of the seller but I certainly wouldn't want to  
take anything for granted without asking.
I'm not sure either if the recent Ebay offerings are tail end leftovers  
from that first batch or represent a more recent release, but I have seen a  
number of failures with the rubidium modules in those bought between 2005  
and 2011.
One at least was physically faulty with others refusing to lock,  either at 
time of purchase or subsequently, I have some of the latter still  on the 
ever growing "to do" pile. 
 
According to the manual the rubidium module, where fitted,  was originally 
a Quartzlock TF4010A, but all units I've seen have been  fitted with FEI 
FE5660A modules. This required a degree of modification to  the chassis and to 
the heatsink and the quality of that work is often poor, so  quite likely a 
field "upgrade". 
 
The unit also contains a DC-DC convertor to derive the 24 Volt  supply for 
the rubidium module from the 13.8 Volt input.
The lock on the front panel is just an ON/OFF keyswitch, if the key is  
missing all those I've seen have been left in the ON position but it's easily  
bypassed anyway.
 
I've tried uploading my scan of the manual to Didier's site but gave  up 
after repeated page reset errors, it is now available  here......
http://www.mediafire.com/view/0x5sa7o0s9pgc4s/Tait_T801_Frequency_Reference.
pdf
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR
 
 

From rob at nc0b.com  Mon Jan 11 10:47:10 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 15:47:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>

The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made.  The 8656B won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement on a modern transceiver.  Sure you can add external attenuation, but you won't know about how much leakage is occurring.  Otherwise why wouldn't HP have added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the 8657B.  Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply.  No question not a starter generator.  The 8642A was never intended for field repair, but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top radios today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen that should be on your list 

Rob, NC0B
Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination, I don't
> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for that, or is
> there a website?
> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am aware that the
> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on the usual
> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge investment for a
> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up for that
> kind of challenge until I do.
> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix scope
> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a year. There
> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm pretty
> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the moment, so
> it's not that bad... Yet!
> 
> Nathan KK4REY
> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> Good thread everyone.
> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets you a
> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats shipped
> with the units.
> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
> Good luck.
> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn thing is
> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
> sure.
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Paul,
>> 
>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units. Another
>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff". The
>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>> 
>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
>> 
>> Rob
>> NC0B
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Nathan,
>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has
>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0
>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works
>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
>> feeding it.
>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a
>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in
>> price. But it does just work.
>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator
>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and
>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so
>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
>> expect.
>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers,
>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
>> Good luck
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hello All,
>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
>>>> for
>>> many
>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
>>>> am
>>> wanting
>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
>>>> see
>>> that I
>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
>>>> OCXO-based
>>> device,
>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
>>>> accurate
>>> timing
>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
>>>> a
>>> frequency
>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
>>>> adjustment pin
>>> for a
>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
>>>> build an
>>> OCXO device
>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
>>>> to
>>> obtain
>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
>> etc.
>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
>>> traceable in
>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
>>>> than I am
>>> likely to
>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
>>>> with
>>> unknown
>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
>>> appear to be
>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
>>> standards.
>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
>>> 231803015799 on the
>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
>>> looked at
>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
>>>> about
>>> what's
>>>> inside.
>>> 
>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>>> 
>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>>> 
>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
>>> good luck with.
>>> 
>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>> 
>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>>> 
>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
>>> clean
>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>>> 
>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
>>> Appriciate any
>>>> and all input.
>>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>>> 
>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>>> [
>>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
>>> _footer_2
>>> ]
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> If this email is spam, report it to
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
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>> and follow the instructions there.
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> and follow the instructions there.
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> and follow the instructions there.
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> 
> 
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From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 10:59:10 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:59:10 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAhQPhQ6XkvKrL-F4GKg0GNqunKRRShr8_dEEtP2YvfPpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nathan,
Here is the link for the REF0. Dan visits time-nuts every now and again.
http://syncchannel.blogspot.com/2015/08/standalone-operation-of-lucent-ks-24361.html
Essentially the arduino fakes out the REF0 to believe a GPS receiver is
attached.
Then any 1PPS will train the reference.
I have built this up using a NEO6 and several different arduinos.
Mini/micro...They all worked. Its silly simple and frankly great solutions
often are silly simple.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 5:40 AM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:

> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination, I
> don't
> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for that,
> or is
> there a website?
> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am aware
> that the
> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on the
> usual
> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge investment
> for a
> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up for
> that
> kind of challenge until I do.
> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix scope
> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a year.
> There
> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm
> pretty
> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the
> moment, so
> it's not that bad... Yet!
>
> Nathan KK4REY
> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> [
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
> ]
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> Good thread everyone.
> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets you a
> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats shipped
> with the units.
> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
> Good luck.
> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn thing is
> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
> sure.
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>
> > Paul,
> >
> > Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
> > storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.
> Another
> > ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff". The
> > disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
> >
> > My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
> > towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
> >
> > Rob
> > NC0B
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul
> swed
> > Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
> >
> >
> >
> > Nathan,
> > Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has
> > been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0
> > requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works
> > really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
> > feeding it.
> > But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a
> > built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in
> > price. But it does just work.
> > Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
> > description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator
> > they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great
> and
> > can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
> > You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so
> > going further isn't really all that helpful.
> > Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
> > expect.
> > First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
> > acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers,
> > better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
> > Good luck
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > > On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello All,
> > > > I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
> > > > for
> > > many
> > > > more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
> > > > am
> > > wanting
> > > > to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
> > > > see
> > > that I
> > > > have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
> > > > OCXO-based
> > > device,
> > > > a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
> > > > accurate
> > > timing
> > > > to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
> > > > a
> > > frequency
> > > > counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> > > > In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> > > > transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
> > > > higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> > > > So what I have learned so far about each option:
> > > > -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
> > > > itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
> > > > microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
> > > > adjustment pin
> > > for a
> > > > tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
> > > > voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
> > > > build an
> > > OCXO device
> > > > of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
> > > > to
> > > obtain
> > > > something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
> > etc.
> > > > -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> > > traceable in
> > > > terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
> > > > available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
> > > > than I am
> > > likely to
> > > > need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
> > > > with
> > > unknown
> > > > hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> > > appear to be
> > > > power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> > > > -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> > > standards.
> > > > Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> > > 231803015799 on the
> > > > usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> > > looked at
> > > > item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
> > > > about
> > > what's
> > > > inside.
> > >
> > > The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
> > > make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
> > > archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
> > >
> > > The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
> > > has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
> > > Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
> > >
> > > Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
> > > good luck with.
> > >
> > > A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
> > > geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> > >
> > > combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
> > > for a bit less” form from the same seller.
> > >
> > > Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
> > > clean
> > > 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> > > All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
> > > multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
> > > lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
> > > multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
> > >
> > > All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
> > > generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> > > Appriciate any
> > > > and all input.
> > > > Nathan KK4REY
> > > >
> > > > Sent using CloudMagic Email
> > > > [
> > > https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
> > > _footer_2
> > > ]
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > If this email is spam, report it to
> >
> >
>
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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From nsayer at kfu.com  Mon Jan 11 12:30:14 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 09:30:14 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>

How about a simpler question. I see in the documentation that LH can use a network connection to remotely read. Can a server for that protocol be made for the RPi? That would be super awesome deluxe for me, and assuming it's just a serial-to-TCP protocol should be nearly trivial to write (heck, netcat might already just do it).

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 10, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:

>> I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it...
> Probably not right now...  it's not so much as knowing C,  it's knowing the ins and out of knowing how your operating system (Windows, Linux, etc) interfaces with your hardware (display, mouse, serial port, keyboard).   Basically, if you have to ask the question,  your are probably not ready to attempt the task.
> Lady Heather is a pretty simple program,  but it is rather long and divided into 5 files.  Just getting set up to compile it in a new environment can be quite a challenge to the un-initiated (acouple of toupees worth of hair pulling once you can compile and link a simple "hello world" program.  
> Then you need to figure out how to draw dots and characters,  talk to the serial port,  talk to the mouse, talk to the keyboard.   Pretty basic stuff once you are familiar with your operating system/environment,  but not something most people do everyday...                            
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From is at opus131.com  Mon Jan 11 12:49:16 2016
From: is at opus131.com (Ian Stirling)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 12:49:16 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5693EB1C.8010506@opus131.com>

On 01/10/2016 01:25 PM, Nathan Johnson wrote:

> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> 231803015799 on the
> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> looked at
> item# 111514491254

Nathan,

   I have an NTBW50AA. It can be monitored and controlled by the
excellent Lady Heather software. I have the antenna mounted on top of
a plastic pole strapped to the corner of my deck. It is connected to
the SMB to BNC supplied adapter using RG59 cable. Rather than ordering
the multi connector to supply power, I opened the unit, mounted a
coaxial power socket to the back and soldered wires from it directly
to the thick PCB power lines. The antenna works with my Ref1 Ref0 pair.
I use a 24 V power supply. It is very good, reasonably priced equipment.

Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR
--

From holrum at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 11 13:50:26 2016
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 18:50:26 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
Message-ID: <BLU181-W60CE7841893B8BCD036204CEC90@phx.gbl>

Lady Heather predates QT by several years...  actually back to 1985 when her mommy controlled Magellan GPS receivers.  A version ran on HP95LX palmtops during the first Gulf War.
The server option just uses the server program to connect the GPSDO serial port to the net.  On the other end Lady Heather uses the TCPIP connection data like it came from a serial port...  so you need a Windoze box to run Lady Heather and display the data.


 		 	   		  

From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 13:52:36 2016
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 18:52:36 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <52a0d9.7b253e8.43c52721@aol.com>
References: <52a0d9.7b253e8.43c52721@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzTgqniAvU7Fcc6kCAuatYN-uy8Kn6Uz6QE0Dded3SMjUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Nigel, I've also taken a gamble on one of these units and am
keeping my  fingers crossed that it has a Rb standard in it.

The service manual is most interesting, it looks like I could use one of
the two 'loops' to lock a different OCXO,  with a little tinkering it could
be a very useful unit as there's plenty of space inside for additions and
modifications.
Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ? They seem to  have
similar models with OCXOs etc.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745

Hi Adrian,

The T801 first seems to have hit the UK surplus market around  2005/2006, I
was told a batch of a couple of hundred, and units from that  release were
still trickling through until around 2011 at least.
These were released by West Yorkshire Police when updating their UHF
mobile network and did contain rubidium standards.

The T801 contains dual nominal 12.8MHz  synthesisers with very fine
switched preset adjustment for base  station synchronisation. These are
locked to
an  external reference and can accept selected integer frequencies  from 1
to
10Mhz and also 12.8MHz.
If the internal 10MHz rubidium module is fitted and used as the  reference
then a short BNC link is required to couple the internal  reference output
to the external reference input.

These were originally sold on Ebay with particular reference to the
rubidium module, for most purchasers the 12.8MHz synthesiser board would
probably
have been of little interest, so I'm surprised to see no reference to  the
rubidium module with the several recent auctions. This may be due to  lack
of familiarity on the part of the seller but I certainly wouldn't want to
take anything for granted without asking.
I'm not sure either if the recent Ebay offerings are tail end leftovers
from that first batch or represent a more recent release, but I have seen a
number of failures with the rubidium modules in those bought between 2005
and 2011.
One at least was physically faulty with others refusing to lock,  either at
time of purchase or subsequently, I have some of the latter still  on the
ever growing "to do" pile.

According to the manual the rubidium module, where fitted,  was originally
a Quartzlock TF4010A, but all units I've seen have been  fitted with FEI
FE5660A modules. This required a degree of modification to  the chassis and
to
the heatsink and the quality of that work is often poor, so  quite likely a
field "upgrade".

The unit also contains a DC-DC convertor to derive the 24 Volt  supply for
the rubidium module from the 13.8 Volt input.
The lock on the front panel is just an ON/OFF keyswitch, if the key is
missing all those I've seen have been left in the ON position but it's
easily
bypassed anyway.

I've tried uploading my scan of the manual to Didier's site but gave  up
after repeated page reset errors, it is now available  here......
http://www.mediafire.com/view/0x5sa7o0s9pgc4s/Tait_T801_Frequency_Reference.
pdf

Regards

Nigel
GM8PZR


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to
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From bownes at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 14:02:59 2016
From: bownes at gmail.com (bownes)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 13:02:59 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
Message-ID: <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>


The 8640 will lock to an external 5Mhz reference. That's what the BNC in the heatsink is for. At least that is where it is on mine. 

The trick is doing a good divide by two. 

However, that said, the 8640 tops out at ~1024MHz, which if you get interested in even the lower microwaves, is not quite enough. 



Bob
KI2L

> On Jan 11, 2016, at 09:47, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
> 
> The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made.  The 8656B won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement on a modern transceiver.  Sure you can add external attenuation, but you won't know about how much leakage is occurring.  Otherwise why wouldn't HP have added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the 8657B.  Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply.  No question not a starter generator.  The 8642A was never intended for field repair, but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top radios today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen that should be on your list 
> 
> Rob, NC0B
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination, I don't
>> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
>> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for that, or is
>> there a website?
>> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am aware that the
>> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
>> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on the usual
>> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge investment for a
>> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
>> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up for that
>> kind of challenge until I do.
>> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix scope
>> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a year. There
>> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm pretty
>> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the moment, so
>> it's not that bad... Yet!
>> 
>> Nathan KK4REY
>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>> Good thread everyone.
>> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
>> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
>> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
>> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
>> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets you a
>> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats shipped
>> with the units.
>> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
>> Good luck.
>> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn thing is
>> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
>> sure.
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Paul,
>>> 
>>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
>>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units. Another
>>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff". The
>>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>>> 
>>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
>>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
>>> 
>>> Rob
>>> NC0B
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
>>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Nathan,
>>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has
>>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0
>>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works
>>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
>>> feeding it.
>>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a
>>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in
>>> price. But it does just work.
>>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
>>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator
>>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and
>>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
>>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so
>>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
>>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
>>> expect.
>>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
>>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers,
>>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
>>> Good luck
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
>>>>> for
>>>> many
>>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
>>>>> am
>>>> wanting
>>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
>>>>> see
>>>> that I
>>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
>>>>> OCXO-based
>>>> device,
>>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
>>>>> accurate
>>>> timing
>>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
>>>>> a
>>>> frequency
>>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
>>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
>>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
>>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
>>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
>>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
>>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
>>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
>>>>> adjustment pin
>>>> for a
>>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
>>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
>>>>> build an
>>>> OCXO device
>>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
>>>>> to
>>>> obtain
>>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
>>> etc.
>>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
>>>> traceable in
>>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
>>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
>>>>> than I am
>>>> likely to
>>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
>>>>> with
>>>> unknown
>>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
>>>> appear to be
>>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
>>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
>>>> standards.
>>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
>>>> 231803015799 on the
>>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
>>>> looked at
>>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
>>>>> about
>>>> what's
>>>>> inside.
>>>> 
>>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
>>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
>>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>>>> 
>>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
>>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
>>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>>>> 
>>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
>>>> good luck with.
>>>> 
>>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
>>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>>> 
>>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
>>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>>>> 
>>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
>>>> clean
>>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
>>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
>>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
>>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
>>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>>>> 
>>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
>>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
>>>> Appriciate any
>>>>> and all input.
>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>>>> [
>>>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
>>>> _footer_2
>>>> ]
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
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>> and follow the instructions there.
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>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> If this email is spam, report it to
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> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From rob at nc0b.com  Mon Jan 11 15:54:49 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 20:54:49 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>,
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>

It is more of a counter-assisted drift stabilizer than a true phase lock as would happen if locking a 10811 to an external standard.  Rob, NC0B

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 11, 2016, at 1:00 PM, "bownes" <bownes at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 8640 will lock to an external 5Mhz reference. That's what the BNC in the heatsink is for. At least that is where it is on mine. 
> 
> The trick is doing a good divide by two. 
> 
> However, that said, the 8640 tops out at ~1024MHz, which if you get interested in even the lower microwaves, is not quite enough. 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> KI2L
> 
>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 09:47, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>> 
>> The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made.  The 8656B won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement on a modern transceiver.  Sure you can add external attenuation, but you won't know about how much leakage is occurring.  Otherwise why wouldn't HP have added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the 8657B.  Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply.  No question not a starter generator.  The 8642A was never intended for field repair, but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top radios today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen that should be on your list 
>> 
>> Rob, NC0B
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination, I don't
>>> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
>>> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for that, or is
>>> there a website?
>>> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am aware that the
>>> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
>>> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on the usual
>>> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge investment for a
>>> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
>>> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up for that
>>> kind of challenge until I do.
>>> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix scope
>>> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a year. There
>>> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm pretty
>>> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the moment, so
>>> it's not that bad... Yet!
>>> 
>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>> Good thread everyone.
>>> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
>>> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
>>> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
>>> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
>>> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets you a
>>> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats shipped
>>> with the units.
>>> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
>>> Good luck.
>>> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn thing is
>>> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
>>> sure.
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Paul,
>>>> 
>>>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
>>>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units. Another
>>>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff". The
>>>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>>>> 
>>>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
>>>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
>>>> 
>>>> Rob
>>>> NC0B
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed
>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Nathan,
>>>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail has
>>>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The Ref0
>>>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It works
>>>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
>>>> feeding it.
>>>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that has a
>>>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place in
>>>> price. But it does just work.
>>>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
>>>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven oscillator
>>>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are great and
>>>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
>>>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz so
>>>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
>>>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then you
>>>> expect.
>>>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
>>>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution amplifiers,
>>>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real fast.
>>>> Good luck
>>>> Paul
>>>> WB8TSL
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
>>>>>> for
>>>>> many
>>>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
>>>>>> am
>>>>> wanting
>>>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
>>>>>> see
>>>>> that I
>>>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
>>>>>> OCXO-based
>>>>> device,
>>>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
>>>>>> accurate
>>>>> timing
>>>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
>>>>>> a
>>>>> frequency
>>>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
>>>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
>>>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
>>>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
>>>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
>>>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
>>>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
>>>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
>>>>>> adjustment pin
>>>>> for a
>>>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
>>>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
>>>>>> build an
>>>>> OCXO device
>>>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
>>>>>> to
>>>>> obtain
>>>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
>>>> etc.
>>>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
>>>>> traceable in
>>>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
>>>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
>>>>>> than I am
>>>>> likely to
>>>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
>>>>>> with
>>>>> unknown
>>>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
>>>>> appear to be
>>>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
>>>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
>>>>> standards.
>>>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
>>>>> 231803015799 on the
>>>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
>>>>> looked at
>>>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
>>>>>> about
>>>>> what's
>>>>>> inside.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff” to
>>>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
>>>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
>>>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
>>>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
>>>>> good luck with.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
>>>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>>>> 
>>>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
>>>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
>>>>> clean
>>>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
>>>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
>>>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
>>>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
>>>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>>>>> 
>>>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
>>>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
>>>>> Appriciate any
>>>>>> and all input.
>>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>>>>> [
>>>>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
>>>>> _footer_2
>>>>> ]
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> If this email is spam, report it to
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>>>> 
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> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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From glennmaillist at bellsouth.net  Mon Jan 11 17:12:38 2016
From: glennmaillist at bellsouth.net (Glenn Little WB4UIV)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:12:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Reference OCXO
Message-ID: <569428D6.3020101@bellsouth.net>

What would a shock mounted 10.08 MHz OCXO be user for?
Just another nonstandard reference?

Thanks
73
Glenn

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little                ARRL Technical Specialist   QCWA  LM 28417
Amateur Callsign:  WB4UIV            wb4uiv at arrl.net    AMSAT LM 2178
QTH:  Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx)  USSVI LM   NRA LM   SBE ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon Jan 11 18:22:40 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 18:22:40 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
Message-ID: <75f3f9.1a3bc8d3.43c59340@aol.com>

 
Thank you Nigel, I've also taken a gamble on one of these units and  am
keeping my  fingers crossed that it has a Rb standard in it.
The  service manual is most interesting, it looks like I could use one of
the two  'loops' to lock a different OCXO,  with a little tinkering it could
be a  very useful unit as there's plenty of space inside for additions  and
modifications.
Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ?  They seem to  have
similar models with OCXOs etc.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
 
 
Hi Clint,
 
As far as I know, from the outside they all look the same and that's  the 
problem, there's no way I can tell you from the available photos whether or  
not those references have the rubidium oscillator.
 
I'd like to think they do, and will keep my fingers crossed for you, but  
unless you can get more info from the seller it'll just be a case of wait and 
 see.
 
Chances are that if the original batch was supplied with the rubidium  
modules then these will be too, might even be part of that same batch as I said  
earlier, but there's still the possibility they might not be the  same or 
might have been got at somewhere along the line.
 
I've just found an online photo that will show you what they "should"  look 
like inside........
 
http://embarrados.com/market/item/111793998037/Tait-T801-Rubidium-Frequency-
Standard
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Jan 11 18:50:19 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 18:50:19 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>

Robs correct on that front. Did not have time to respond till now.
The 8640 is not some sort of synthesized gen.
But it has one of the lowest noise floors of any generator.
So I have several of them and then the synthesized gens like those
mentioned.

Hear that sucking sound?
Its quicksand.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:

> It is more of a counter-assisted drift stabilizer than a true phase lock
> as would happen if locking a 10811 to an external standard.  Rob, NC0B
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jan 11, 2016, at 1:00 PM, "bownes" <bownes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The 8640 will lock to an external 5Mhz reference. That's what the BNC in
> the heatsink is for. At least that is where it is on mine.
> >
> > The trick is doing a good divide by two.
> >
> > However, that said, the 8640 tops out at ~1024MHz, which if you get
> interested in even the lower microwaves, is not quite enough.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob
> > KI2L
> >
> >> On Jan 11, 2016, at 09:47, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made.  The 8656B
> won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement on
> a modern transceiver.  Sure you can add external attenuation, but you won't
> know about how much leakage is occurring.  Otherwise why wouldn't HP have
> added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the
> 8657B.  Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply.  No question
> not a starter generator.  The 8642A was never intended for field repair,
> but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top radios
> today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen that
> should be on your list
> >>
> >> Rob, NC0B
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination,
> I don't
> >>> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
> >>> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for
> that, or is
> >>> there a website?
> >>> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am
> aware that the
> >>> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
> >>> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on
> the usual
> >>> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge
> investment for a
> >>> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
> >>> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up
> for that
> >>> kind of challenge until I do.
> >>> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix
> scope
> >>> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a
> year. There
> >>> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm
> pretty
> >>> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the
> moment, so
> >>> it's not that bad... Yet!
> >>>
> >>> Nathan KK4REY
> >>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> >>> [
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
> ]
> >>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> >>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> >>> Good thread everyone.
> >>> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
> >>> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
> >>> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
> >>> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
> >>> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets
> you a
> >>> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats
> shipped
> >>> with the units.
> >>> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
> >>> Good luck.
> >>> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn
> thing is
> >>> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
> >>> sure.
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul,
> >>>>
> >>>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
> >>>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.
> Another
> >>>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff".
> The
> >>>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
> >>>>
> >>>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
> >>>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rob
> >>>> NC0B
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
> paul swed
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
> >>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Nathan,
> >>>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail
> has
> >>>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The
> Ref0
> >>>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It
> works
> >>>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
> >>>> feeding it.
> >>>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that
> has a
> >>>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place
> in
> >>>> price. But it does just work.
> >>>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
> >>>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven
> oscillator
> >>>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are
> great and
> >>>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
> >>>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz
> so
> >>>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
> >>>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then
> you
> >>>> expect.
> >>>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
> >>>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution
> amplifiers,
> >>>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real
> fast.
> >>>> Good luck
> >>>> Paul
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello All,
> >>>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>> many
> >>>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
> >>>>>> am
> >>>>> wanting
> >>>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
> >>>>>> see
> >>>>> that I
> >>>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
> >>>>>> OCXO-based
> >>>>> device,
> >>>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
> >>>>>> accurate
> >>>>> timing
> >>>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>> frequency
> >>>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> >>>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> >>>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
> >>>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> >>>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
> >>>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
> >>>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
> >>>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
> >>>>>> adjustment pin
> >>>>> for a
> >>>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
> >>>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
> >>>>>> build an
> >>>>> OCXO device
> >>>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>> obtain
> >>>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
> >>>> etc.
> >>>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> >>>>> traceable in
> >>>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
> >>>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
> >>>>>> than I am
> >>>>> likely to
> >>>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>> unknown
> >>>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> >>>>> appear to be
> >>>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> >>>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> >>>>> standards.
> >>>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> >>>>> 231803015799 on the
> >>>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> >>>>> looked at
> >>>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>> what's
> >>>>>> inside.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff”
> to
> >>>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
> >>>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
> >>>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
> >>>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
> >>>>> good luck with.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
> >>>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> >>>>>
> >>>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
> >>>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
> >>>>> clean
> >>>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> >>>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
> >>>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
> >>>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
> >>>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
> >>>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> >>>>> Appriciate any
> >>>>>> and all input.
> >>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> >>>>>> [
> >>>>>
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
> >>>>> _footer_2
> >>>>> ]
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> If this email is spam, report it to
> >>>
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
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> >>> and follow the instructions there.
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> >> _______________________________________________
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From nsayer at kfu.com  Mon Jan 11 20:00:15 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 17:00:15 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>

I answered my own question. :)

ser2net works perfectly as a “server” for LH. I’m using a USB to serial adapter and the ser2net.conf line for it is

3200:raw:0:/dev/ttyUSB0:9600 8DATABITS NONE 1STOPBIT LOCAL

And for LH, /ip=n.n.n.n:3200 works.


> On Jan 11, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> How about a simpler question. I see in the documentation that LH can use a network connection to remotely read. Can a server for that protocol be made for the RPi? That would be super awesome deluxe for me, and assuming it's just a serial-to-TCP protocol should be nearly trivial to write (heck, netcat might already just do it).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jan 10, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it...
>> Probably not right now...  it's not so much as knowing C,  it's knowing the ins and out of knowing how your operating system (Windows, Linux, etc) interfaces with your hardware (display, mouse, serial port, keyboard).   Basically, if you have to ask the question,  your are probably not ready to attempt the task.
>> Lady Heather is a pretty simple program,  but it is rather long and divided into 5 files.  Just getting set up to compile it in a new environment can be quite a challenge to the un-initiated (acouple of toupees worth of hair pulling once you can compile and link a simple "hello world" program.  
>> Then you need to figure out how to draw dots and characters,  talk to the serial port,  talk to the mouse, talk to the keyboard.   Pretty basic stuff once you are familiar with your operating system/environment,  but not something most people do everyday...                            
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Jan 11 20:47:32 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 20:47:32 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Reference OCXO
In-Reply-To: <569428D6.3020101@bellsouth.net>
References: <569428D6.3020101@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <BFBCA7E6-683B-4550-AC28-6021FFD2DAFE@n1k.org>

Hi

Often what *looks* like shock mounting is vibration isolation. Since things like phase noise are 
impacted by vibration, isolation can be a good idea. If you are doing an airborne radar, they are
fairly common.

Bob

> On Jan 11, 2016, at 5:12 PM, Glenn Little WB4UIV <glennmaillist at bellsouth.net> wrote:
> 
> What would a shock mounted 10.08 MHz OCXO be user for?
> Just another nonstandard reference?
> 
> Thanks
> 73
> Glenn
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Glenn Little                ARRL Technical Specialist   QCWA  LM 28417
> Amateur Callsign:  WB4UIV            wb4uiv at arrl.net    AMSAT LM 2178
> QTH:  Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx)  USSVI LM   NRA LM   SBE ARRL TAPR
> "It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
> of the Amateur that holds the license"
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Jan 11 23:44:53 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 20:44:53 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Possible 5372A available .. my usual luck
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_Wy5+iURt_nX1FOqPG9rYObnknY4xDbCrFEukLhSeMsA@mail.gmail.com>

I've been lucking for a 5372A with option 020 (fast memory i/o). Well two
5372A's showed up on the Eplace and one had option 020,the other didn't I
bid and won.

They shipped me the one wrong one.

The seller has offered to have me ship it back but before I do, is anyone
interested ?

I paid just over $220 for it.

I'm going to ask the seller to consider meeting half way on it, if not I
can either send it
back for a full refund or offer it here, I'm in Portland OR and it is HEAVY,

-pete

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Jan 12 01:08:22 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 07:08:22 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Possible 5372A available .. my usual luck
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u_Wy5+iURt_nX1FOqPG9rYObnknY4xDbCrFEukLhSeMsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u_Wy5+iURt_nX1FOqPG9rYObnknY4xDbCrFEukLhSeMsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56949856.8000802@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Pete,

On 01/12/2016 05:44 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> I've been lucking for a 5372A with option 020 (fast memory i/o). Well two
> 5372A's showed up on the Eplace and one had option 020,the other didn't I
> bid and won.

Yay!

> They shipped me the one wrong one.

Bummer.

> The seller has offered to have me ship it back but before I do, is anyone
> interested ?
>
> I paid just over $220 for it.
>
> I'm going to ask the seller to consider meeting half way on it, if not I
> can either send it
> back for a full refund or offer it here, I'm in Portland OR and it is HEAVY,

Well. The Option 020 isn't all that many pieces, at least in mine there 
already seemed to be all the drivers etc. on the board so all I was 
missing was the connectors at the back, oh... and flipping the 020 
option DIP-switch.

They should ship you the board and cables out of the back of the other 
5372A.

Cheers,
Magnus

From eds_equipment at verizon.net  Tue Jan 12 03:58:46 2016
From: eds_equipment at verizon.net (Ed Armstrong)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 03:58:46 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <5694C046.6010601@verizon.net>

More details please. I've installed it, but can't make it work. My 
USB/serial cable is /dev/ttyUSB0 just like yours. I used your .conf 
file. But lady heather says connection rejected.


Ed

On 1/11/2016 8:00 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
> I answered my own question. :)
>
> ser2net works perfectly as a “server” for LH. I’m using a USB to serial adapter and the ser2net.conf line for it is
>
> 3200:raw:0:/dev/ttyUSB0:9600 8DATABITS NONE 1STOPBIT LOCAL
>
> And for LH, /ip=n.n.n.n:3200 works.
>
>
>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>
>> How about a simpler question. I see in the documentation that LH can use a network connection to remotely read. Can a server for that protocol be made for the RPi? That would be super awesome deluxe for me, and assuming it's just a serial-to-TCP protocol should be nearly trivial to write (heck, netcat might already just do it).
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it...
>>> Probably not right now...  it's not so much as knowing C,  it's knowing the ins and out of knowing how your operating system (Windows, Linux, etc) interfaces with your hardware (display, mouse, serial port, keyboard).   Basically, if you have to ask the question,  your are probably not ready to attempt the task.
>>> Lady Heather is a pretty simple program,  but it is rather long and divided into 5 files.  Just getting set up to compile it in a new environment can be quite a challenge to the un-initiated (acouple of toupees worth of hair pulling once you can compile and link a simple "hello world" program.
>>> Then you need to figure out how to draw dots and characters,  talk to the serial port,  talk to the mouse, talk to the keyboard.   Pretty basic stuff once you are familiar with your operating system/environment,  but not something most people do everyday...
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Tue Jan 12 07:24:04 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 07:24:04 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
Message-ID: <7b79f6.6b277c4e.43c64a64@aol.com>

Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ?  They seem  to  have
similar models with OCXOs etc.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
 
---------------------------------------------------
Well now, how's this for a happy coincidence.........
 
I've just received an email from a friend who bought a Tait T801 from  that 
very same auction, asking about the rubidium module that he  found inside 
it:-)
 
Regards
 
Nigel
Gm8PZR

From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 08:39:26 2016
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 13:39:26 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <7b79f6.6b277c4e.43c64a64@aol.com>
References: <7b79f6.6b277c4e.43c64a64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzQxyGp9Z_MZWoS5jBN65oXGi-ciCYEeC-WSs0DddrOcKg@mail.gmail.com>

That's a very happy coincidence and one I'd hoped to hear.

The pictures in the auction seem to show a lack of tarnish on the Ref Out
and Ref In BNCs which suggests they have had plugs on them, looping the
internal reference, other little bits of information also pointed to that,
the remnants of a sticker on the front of one unit seems to say
'RUBID01...', past auctions of T801 units have been labelled with things
like 'RUBID048', the hex switches seem to be set correctly for use with an
internal reference as well so I was quietly confident they had the Rb
option fitted.

Now I just have to cross my fingers that mine arrive with the Rb in good
conditon. The seller also states 'working order' so there's possible scope
for a refund if it doesn't.

On 12 January 2016 at 12:24, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

> Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ?  They seem  to  have
> similar models with OCXOs etc.
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Well now, how's this for a happy coincidence.........
>
> I've just received an email from a friend who bought a Tait T801 from  that
> very same auction, asking about the rubidium module that he  found inside
> it:-)
>
> Regards
>
> Nigel
> Gm8PZR
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Clint.

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*

From nsayer at kfu.com  Tue Jan 12 09:15:27 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 06:15:27 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <5694C046.6010601@verizon.net>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com> <5694C046.6010601@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <7BEE3339-BEEE-4E59-8D7D-F1517124B644@kfu.com>

If you telnet or nc into your rpi on port 3200, you should get a connection and you should get a bunch of garbage. If not, ser2net isn’t working. Is it running? sudo /etc/init.d/ser2net restart (did you do that after changing the config file?)

If ser2net is working then it must be something about the LH params that’s incorrect. Do you have the correct IP address and port? Is there anything between the two - firewalls or routers or the like?

> On Jan 12, 2016, at 12:58 AM, Ed Armstrong <eds_equipment at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> More details please. I've installed it, but can't make it work. My USB/serial cable is /dev/ttyUSB0 just like yours. I used your .conf file. But lady heather says connection rejected.
> 
> 
> Ed
> 
> On 1/11/2016 8:00 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>> I answered my own question. :)
>> 
>> ser2net works perfectly as a “server” for LH. I’m using a USB to serial adapter and the ser2net.conf line for it is
>> 
>> 3200:raw:0:/dev/ttyUSB0:9600 8DATABITS NONE 1STOPBIT LOCAL
>> 
>> And for LH, /ip=n.n.n.n:3200 works.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 9:30 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> How about a simpler question. I see in the documentation that LH can use a network connection to remotely read. Can a server for that protocol be made for the RPi? That would be super awesome deluxe for me, and assuming it's just a serial-to-TCP protocol should be nearly trivial to write (heck, netcat might already just do it).
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it...
>>>> Probably not right now...  it's not so much as knowing C,  it's knowing the ins and out of knowing how your operating system (Windows, Linux, etc) interfaces with your hardware (display, mouse, serial port, keyboard).   Basically, if you have to ask the question,  your are probably not ready to attempt the task.
>>>> Lady Heather is a pretty simple program,  but it is rather long and divided into 5 files.  Just getting set up to compile it in a new environment can be quite a challenge to the un-initiated (acouple of toupees worth of hair pulling once you can compile and link a simple "hello world" program.
>>>> Then you need to figure out how to draw dots and characters,  talk to the serial port,  talk to the mouse, talk to the keyboard.   Pretty basic stuff once you are familiar with your operating system/environment,  but not something most people do everyday...
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 


From mgeorge at tuffmail.us  Tue Jan 12 09:40:04 2016
From: mgeorge at tuffmail.us (Mike George)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 09:40:04 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <5694C046.6010601@verizon.net>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com> <5694C046.6010601@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <56951044.4090506@tuffmail.us>

Ed:

A few recommendations for troubleshooting.

In /etc/ser2net.conf comment out the 4 default lines (/dev/ttyS0-3)
so that the line Nick provided is the only config present.

Stop ser2net:
      /etc/init.d/ser2net stop
then restart:
      /etc/init.d/ser2net start

Make sure ser2net is running:
      ps -ef | grep ser2net

If not, tail /var/log/syslog and see if any errors were reported on 
statrtup.
Normally you just see a single line reporting successful startup.

If it is running , make sure it is listening on the socket you specified 
(3200):
    netstat -tln | grep 3200

you should see a line with 0.0.0.0:3200 under local address

There is additional troubleshooting you can do depending on results
of above steps.

Good luck.

Mike

On 1/12/2016 03:58, Ed Armstrong wrote:
> More details please. I've installed it, but can't make it work. My 
> USB/serial cable is /dev/ttyUSB0 just like yours. I used your .conf 
> file. But lady heather says connection rejected.
>
>
> Ed
>
> On 1/11/2016 8:00 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>> I answered my own question. :)
>>
>> ser2net works perfectly as a “server” for LH. I’m using a USB to 
>> serial adapter and the ser2net.conf line for it is
>>
>> 3200:raw:0:/dev/ttyUSB0:9600 8DATABITS NONE 1STOPBIT LOCAL
>>
>> And for LH, /ip=n.n.n.n:3200 works.
>>
>> _____________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


From chris at chriscaudle.org  Tue Jan 12 10:17:21 2016
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 09:17:21 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

On Mon, January 11, 2016 7:00 pm, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
> ser2net works perfectly as a server for LH.

Can ntpd using a Thunderbolt as a time source run cooperatively with LH
accessing the same Thunderbolt over ser2net?  That seems like the best
case scenario for using a small ARM system with a Thunderbolt as a time
server.

-- 
Chris Caudle





From artgodwin at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 12:46:45 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:46:45 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <CAN7ULzQxyGp9Z_MZWoS5jBN65oXGi-ciCYEeC-WSs0DddrOcKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b79f6.6b277c4e.43c64a64@aol.com>
 <CAN7ULzQxyGp9Z_MZWoS5jBN65oXGi-ciCYEeC-WSs0DddrOcKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALiMYrvzSb=7n0LxS7NYOvqyp=77vtRXFqzMg93hfuYdxLcNvA@mail.gmail.com>

If so, let's hope the sudden surge of purchases will encourage the dealer
to find some more :)


On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:

> That's a very happy coincidence and one I'd hoped to hear.
>
> The pictures in the auction seem to show a lack of tarnish on the Ref Out
> and Ref In BNCs which suggests they have had plugs on them, looping the
> internal reference, other little bits of information also pointed to that,
> the remnants of a sticker on the front of one unit seems to say
> 'RUBID01...', past auctions of T801 units have been labelled with things
> like 'RUBID048', the hex switches seem to be set correctly for use with an
> internal reference as well so I was quietly confident they had the Rb
> option fitted.
>
> Now I just have to cross my fingers that mine arrive with the Rb in good
> conditon. The seller also states 'working order' so there's possible scope
> for a refund if it doesn't.
>
> On 12 January 2016 at 12:24, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
> time-nuts at febo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ?  They seem  to
> have
> > similar models with OCXOs etc.
> > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > Well now, how's this for a happy coincidence.........
> >
> > I've just received an email from a friend who bought a Tait T801 from
> that
> > very same auction, asking about the rubidium module that he  found inside
> > it:-)
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Nigel
> > Gm8PZR
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Clint.
>
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Tue Jan 12 15:28:56 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 15:28:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <BLU181-W60CE7841893B8BCD036204CEC90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU181-W60CE7841893B8BCD036204CEC90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <56956208.7040706@erols.com>

Hi Mark,

That was well understood when I stated that your life would have
been easier had QT been used.  It would have... DOS was a real
pain for doing mouse and graphics stuff.  QT makes it easy..

But QT would have also slowed a DOS era processor to a stop, and
it would probably still be trying to refresh the screen ;-)

-Chuck Harris

Mark Sims wrote:
> Lady Heather predates QT by several years...  actually back to 1985 when her mommy
> controlled Magellan GPS receivers.  A version ran on HP95LX palmtops during the
> first Gulf War. The server option just uses the server program to connect the
> GPSDO serial port to the net.  On the other end Lady Heather uses the TCPIP
> connection data like it came from a serial port...  so you need a Windoze box to
> run Lady Heather and display the data.
>
>
>  _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list --
> time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the
> instructions there.
>

From nsayer at kfu.com  Tue Jan 12 17:01:26 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 14:01:26 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
 <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <5CF93E20-5143-4025-877D-195A35022595@kfu.com>

I’m going to guess “no,” because only one thing can connect to the ser2net socket at a time.

If I were going to do it, what I might do is connect up the PPS output of the tbolt to a GPIO pin of the RPi and configure that pin for the pps device and set up ntpd for that. That way, LH can have the serial interface all to itself. I’ve done this with a far more ordinary GPS module to make a public stratum 1 server out of a Pi Zero for the NTP pool (ntp.kfu.com).

> On Jan 12, 2016, at 7:17 AM, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, January 11, 2016 7:00 pm, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>> ser2net works perfectly as a server for LH.
> 
> Can ntpd using a Thunderbolt as a time source run cooperatively with LH
> accessing the same Thunderbolt over ser2net?  That seems like the best
> case scenario for using a small ARM system with a Thunderbolt as a time
> server.
> 
> -- 
> Chris Caudle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan 12 18:01:57 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 23:01:57 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing broken HP5065A LED clock
Message-ID: <3407.1452639717@critter.freebsd.dk>

This probably belongs in the category of serious overkill, but it was
a nice excuse to learn KICAD and fab a PCB with it:

   http://phk.freebsd.dk/hacks/HP5065A/20160112_working_clock/index.html

I have 9 spare PCBs in case anybody have similar issues.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From lists at philpem.me.uk  Tue Jan 12 18:35:38 2016
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 23:35:38 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] (OT) Looking for a paper from NAV01 (RIN
 International Conference on Navigation)
In-Reply-To: <568D8E92.50907@gmx.de>
References: <5687B076.7040904@philpem.me.uk>
 <20160104220248.81de4e3e747929854626cd1b@kinali.ch>
 <568D596E.3000405@philpem.me.uk> <568D8E92.50907@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <56958DCA.4090603@philpem.me.uk>

On 06/01/16 22:00, Jochen Frieling wrote:
> First off it looks like they won't even give out the 450 page work, but
> only photocopies of requested articles/pages ("bestellbar / nur Kopie").

That seems to be more or less in line with a lot of reference libraries'
policies. The British Library will allow you to book a time and look at
a journal or paper in their Reading Rooms (assuming they hold a copy),
but primarily they distribute photocopies and scanned copies.


> As I live close to Hannover, I will give it a try the next days to
> obtain a copy of the Hartinger,Willson,Cousins paper.
> Nothing is lost, but keep your fingers crossed.
> 
> I will then see to it that it is made accessible for you and Attila and
> the others interested.

It would be fantastic if you could -- thank you very much in advance!


Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From chris at chriscaudle.org  Tue Jan 12 19:20:40 2016
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 18:20:40 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <5CF93E20-5143-4025-877D-195A35022595@kfu.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
 <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <5CF93E20-5143-4025-877D-195A35022595@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <1a390fdc9e75021ea980a5c29952f684.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 7:17 AM, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:
>> Can ntpd using a Thunderbolt as a time source run cooperatively with LH
>> accessing the same Thunderbolt over ser2net?  That seems like the best

On Tue, January 12, 2016 4:01 pm, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
> I'm going to guess no, because only one thing can connect to the
> ser2net socket at a time.

No, ntpd would be getting time from the serial port, not from the network
socket.  The idea would be that ntpd was getting the clock time from the
serial port, but the time messages would be interleaved with whatever data
the Thunderbolt was sending back in request to the LH commands.

LH would also be seeing the time messages, but it sees those anyway, so I
think the only concern would be the behavior of ntpd when all the data
from LH commands is going by.  Possibly a second concern of whether ntpd
sends any commands to the Thunderbolt that might cause LH to be confused
by responses to commands LH did not send.

> If I were going to do it, what I might do is connect up the PPS output of
> the tbolt to a GPIO pin of the RPi and configure that pin for the pps
> device and set up ntpd for that.

You still have to get wall clock time from somewhere, PPS just delineates
the seconds, it doesn't name the seconds.
For some cases you could have ntpd get the starting time from another
network source and just use PPS to keep track of the seconds after that,
but then you would still have corner cases of knowing when leap seconds
occurred, maybe others.
And of course if you relied on network access to other time servers you
could not operate on an isolated network.

> That way, LH can have the serial
> interface all to itself. I've done this with a far more ordinary GPS
> module to make a public stratum 1 server out of a Pi Zero for the NTP pool
> (ntp.kfu.com).
>

How did it get the correct time set at startup?  Did it have to query
other network servers to set the time, then the PPS controlled the clock
after that?
Can it be a "stratum 1" server if it has to rely on another server to get
the correct time when it starts up?  I guess it could if it doesn't serve
time until it has checked with other stratum 1 servers to make sure the
time is correct.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off into those weeds, but that isn't the system I
want.
I want a machine which can get the correct current time without reference
to another system, which means that ntpd must get the time information
from somewhere, either by directly reading the serial port, or passed
through from gpsd which is reading the serial port, or some similar setup.
The PPS driver would be connected directly to ntpd.

-- 
Chris Caudle



From kd5byb at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 19:26:15 2016
From: kd5byb at gmail.com (Ben Hall)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 18:26:15 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <569599A7.7080104@gmail.com>

Hi Mark and list,

On 1/10/2016 6:31 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
> Probably not right now...  it's not so much as knowing C,  it's
> knowing the ins and out of knowing how your operating system
> (Windows, Linux, etc) interfaces with your hardware (display, mouse,
> serial port, keyboard).   Basically, if you have to ask the question,
> your are probably not ready to attempt the task.

I was pretty sure that this was going to be the case, but figured I'd 
ask.  I was hoping it would be something not technically difficult, just 
time consuming.  :)

thanks much,
ben

From w9gb at icloud.com  Tue Jan 12 18:31:26 2016
From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:31:26 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] True Time Nut Mission: NASA's Deep Space Atomic Clock
	(DSAC)
Message-ID: <8E90FB6F-B6DE-4AB8-AA23-7522B172B7EA@icloud.com>

Upcoming Event: Deep Space Atomic Clock
Jan. 14, 2016, at 7 p.m. PT (10 p.m. ET, 0300 UTC)
You can watch this event via USTREAM:  http://www.ustream.tv/NASAJPL2

Speakers: 
Todd Ely, DSAC Principal Investigator, JPL
Allen H. Farrington, DSAC Project Manager, JPL
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/clock_overview.html#.VpWMgK9OKK0
Atomic clocks are an integral, yet almost invisible component of modern life. 
For space exploration, they have been the foundational frequency standard for NASA's Deep Space Network. NASA's Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) Technology Demonstration Mission, led by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, has been maturing the latest Atomic Clock technologies into a smaller package, suitable for installation on a variety of deep space probes to enhance navigation precision and gravity science across the solar system.
============
DSAC is scheduled for launch in mid-2016.  
Satellite being built by Surrey Satellite Technologies USA, Englewood, CO


Sent from iPad Air

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan 12 20:10:36 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 20:10:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing broken HP5065A LED clock
In-Reply-To: <3407.1452639717@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <3407.1452639717@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjn8OnYpmA0S7rsFo0c4Cw7TgkHxVRoGsGTcUquKijFAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Poul-Henning is that just the back board of the clock?
I guess I did not realize there were actually 2 boards.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 6:01 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
wrote:

> This probably belongs in the category of serious overkill, but it was
> a nice excuse to learn KICAD and fab a PCB with it:
>
>    http://phk.freebsd.dk/hacks/HP5065A/20160112_working_clock/index.html
>
> I have 9 spare PCBs in case anybody have similar issues.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Wed Jan 13 00:06:55 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 21:06:55 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: Message from "Chris Caudle" <chris@chriscaudle.org> of "Tue,
 12 Jan 2016 18:20:40 CST."
 <1a390fdc9e75021ea980a5c29952f684.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <20160113050655.77F81406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


chris at chriscaudle.org said:
> No, ntpd would be getting time from the serial port, not from the network
> socket.  The idea would be that ntpd was getting the clock time from the
> serial port, but the time messages would be interleaved with whatever data
> the Thunderbolt was sending back in request to the LH commands. 

How does who decide what data goes to ntpd and what goes to LH?

If you have 2 serial ports, it would be easy to wire the pin from the TBolt 
to feed both serial ports.

ntpd knows enough about TBolts to tell it to send the time every second.  It 
would be easy to teach it to ignore stuff it doesn't want and doesn't already 
ignore.  That would let LH drive things and ntpd would just listen in on the 
second port.

It should be possible to duplicate the data stream in software, but I don't 
know how to do that on Linux.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Jan 13 03:38:08 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 08:38:08 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing broken HP5065A LED clock
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjn8OnYpmA0S7rsFo0c4Cw7TgkHxVRoGsGTcUquKijFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3407.1452639717@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAD2JfAjn8OnYpmA0S7rsFo0c4Cw7TgkHxVRoGsGTcUquKijFAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5090.1452674288@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAD2JfAjn8OnYpmA0S7rsFo0c4Cw7TgkHxVRoGsGTcUquKijFAQ at mail.gmail.com>, paul swed writes:

>Poul-Henning is that just the back board of the clock?
>I guess I did not realize there were actually 2 boards.

There are 3 and 2 board versions of the LED clock.  Mine is the 2-board
version.

See the section about MM5313 here:

	http://phk.freebsd.dk/hacks/HP5065A/20151225_clock/index.html

I think you can use my PCB to make the 3-board a 2-board
but you'd have to change some constants in the firmware to send out
50Hz rather than 1Hz.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From jblaha at polariswireless.com  Wed Jan 13 04:22:09 2016
From: jblaha at polariswireless.com (Jerome Blaha)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:22:09 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
Message-ID: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>

Hey Guys,

Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.

The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?

Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?

Thanks,
Jerome


From jra at febo.com  Wed Jan 13 08:25:15 2016
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 08:25:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
Message-ID: <5696503B.50008@febo.com>

Tom Van Baak has developed dividers based on simple PIC chips that will 
produce 1 PPS from several input frequencies.  These dividers have 
remarkably low jitter, down in the couple-of-picosecond range, and are 
very simple.

I've implemented life support circuitry around two versions of Tom's 
code, both available as kits from TAPR:

The TADD-2 is a 4x6 inch board with 6 BNC outputs, each of which can be 
set to provide 1, 10, 100, 1K, or 10K PPS from either a 5 or 10 MHz input:
http://tapr.org/kits_tadd-2.html

The T2-Mini is a tiny board with a single input and output.  The default 
firmware allows PPS output for 1, 2.5, 5, or 10MHz input:
http://tapr.org/kits_t2-mini.html

Both of these devices have a low-jitter sine-to-square converter on the 
input, and work over a wide input amplitude range, so just about any 
sine wave will drive them.

John
----

On 1/13/2016 4:22 AM, Jerome Blaha wrote:
> Hey Guys,
>
> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>
> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>
> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>
> Thanks,
> Jerome
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From opronningen at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 08:31:25 2016
From: opronningen at gmail.com (Ole Petter Ronningen)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 14:31:25 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
Message-ID: <CAG15_6uy=FaG4yKyKaJB_a_Nm9717=BUyk5n6LK6Hk11p2yQOw@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like a PICDIV is just about right:
http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm

Ole

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Jerome Blaha <jblaha at polariswireless.com>
wrote:

> Hey Guys,
>
> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS
> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first
> application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always
> attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master
> GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>
> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS
> output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a
> perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS
> would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If
> this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to
> generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>
> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a
> sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>
> Thanks,
> Jerome
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From time-nuts at tardis.net.br  Wed Jan 13 08:23:35 2016
From: time-nuts at tardis.net.br (Edesio Costa e Silva)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 11:23:35 -0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
Message-ID: <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>

Hi!

Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm

Edésio

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
> Hey Guys,
> 
> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
> 
> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
> 
> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jerome
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From nsayer at kfu.com  Wed Jan 13 09:30:55 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 06:30:55 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <1a390fdc9e75021ea980a5c29952f684.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
 <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <5CF93E20-5143-4025-877D-195A35022595@kfu.com>
 <1a390fdc9e75021ea980a5c29952f684.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <1081278D-DC37-4BB0-A5D8-2FA4192E47CB@kfu.com>


> On Jan 12, 2016, at 4:20 PM, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:
> 
>>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 7:17 AM, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:
>>> Can ntpd using a Thunderbolt as a time source run cooperatively with LH
>>> accessing the same Thunderbolt over ser2net?  That seems like the best
> 
> On Tue, January 12, 2016 4:01 pm, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>> I'm going to guess no, because only one thing can connect to the
>> ser2net socket at a time.
> 
> No, ntpd would be getting time from the serial port, not from the network
> socket.

You’re right. I may be wrong, but I would expect that either gapd or ser2net would want to open the serial device exclusively, which would spoil things.

>  The idea would be that ntpd was getting the clock time from the
> serial port, but the time messages would be interleaved with whatever data
> the Thunderbolt was sending back in request to the LH commands.

You might investigate whether you could make some sort of intermediate service that could be a client of gpsd and provide the listening socket for LH. If you’re fortunate, LH may be able to just connect up to gpsd directly. gpsd has the wherewithal to interleave client access, if I am not mistaken.

> 
> LH would also be seeing the time messages, but it sees those anyway, so I
> think the only concern would be the behavior of ntpd when all the data
> from LH commands is going by.  Possibly a second concern of whether ntpd
> sends any commands to the Thunderbolt that might cause LH to be confused
> by responses to commands LH did not send.
> 
>> If I were going to do it, what I might do is connect up the PPS output of
>> the tbolt to a GPIO pin of the RPi and configure that pin for the pps
>> device and set up ntpd for that.
> 
> You still have to get wall clock time from somewhere, PPS just delineates
> the seconds, it doesn't name the seconds.

Of course. You just have ordinary ntp peers for that.

> For some cases you could have ntpd get the starting time from another
> network source and just use PPS to keep track of the seconds after that,
> but then you would still have corner cases of knowing when leap seconds
> occurred, maybe others.

Well ntp ostensibly takes care of that too.

> And of course if you relied on network access to other time servers you
> could not operate on an isolated network.

That’s true. My goal, though, was just to contribute to the ntp pool, so connectivity is assumed.

> 
>> That way, LH can have the serial
>> interface all to itself. I've done this with a far more ordinary GPS
>> module to make a public stratum 1 server out of a Pi Zero for the NTP pool
>> (ntp.kfu.com).
>> 
> 
> How did it get the correct time set at startup?  Did it have to query
> other network servers to set the time, then the PPS controlled the clock
> after that?

Yup.

> Can it be a "stratum 1" server if it has to rely on another server to get
> the correct time when it starts up?  I guess it could if it doesn't serve
> time until it has checked with other stratum 1 servers to make sure the
> time is correct.

That’s exactly right - it doesn’t claim stratum 1 until it gets an ntp lock over the network (at which point it can claim stratum 2 normally), and then it starts to take the pps updates and claims stratum 1.

> 
> Sorry, didn't mean to go off into those weeds, but that isn't the system I
> want.
> I want a machine which can get the correct current time without reference
> to another system, which means that ntpd must get the time information
> from somewhere, either by directly reading the serial port, or passed
> through from gpsd which is reading the serial port, or some similar setup.
> The PPS driver would be connected directly to ntpd.

The issue with the serial data stream in my case is that there’s no synchronization in it that’s sub-second accurate. That is, there’s no way to know which leading edge of which bit in the NMEA sentence is lined up with the start of the GPS second. And even if you get that, the serial driver doesn’t have any mechanism to accurately time-stamp the incoming characters - at least not nearly as well as the pps device. Now, that may not be the case with the tbolt, but with the module that that server’s using, trying to actually sync acceptably with gpsd is an exercise in futility. It’s much faster to just ignore the serial data and get synced initially over the network.

> 
> -- 
> Chris Caudle
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From nsayer at kfu.com  Wed Jan 13 09:43:12 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 06:43:12 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
Message-ID: <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>

If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
> 
> Edésio
> 
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>> Hey Guys,
>> 
>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>> 
>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>> 
>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jerome
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From artgodwin at gmail.com  Wed Jan 13 10:24:15 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 15:24:15 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Tait reference
In-Reply-To: <CALiMYrvzSb=7n0LxS7NYOvqyp=77vtRXFqzMg93hfuYdxLcNvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b79f6.6b277c4e.43c64a64@aol.com>
 <CAN7ULzQxyGp9Z_MZWoS5jBN65oXGi-ciCYEeC-WSs0DddrOcKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALiMYrvzSb=7n0LxS7NYOvqyp=77vtRXFqzMg93hfuYdxLcNvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALiMYrunk3o4niUkY9miT2+TMwjroJz+rKRWPsCFhhmFZ6uupg@mail.gmail.com>

Good news - my purchase arrived quickly, contains an FE5660A 10MHz
oscillator and shows both the internal standard lock light and the internal
reference lock light within a few minutes. It runs from 13.8 volts and
takes about 1.2A.

The f1 and f2 lock lights don't come on, but that's not a big issue. I may
just rewire those outputs as a distribution amplifier in any case.


On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin at gmail.com> wrote:

> If so, let's hope the sudden surge of purchases will encourage the dealer
> to find some more :)
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's a very happy coincidence and one I'd hoped to hear.
>>
>> The pictures in the auction seem to show a lack of tarnish on the Ref Out
>> and Ref In BNCs which suggests they have had plugs on them, looping the
>> internal reference, other little bits of information also pointed to that,
>> the remnants of a sticker on the front of one unit seems to say
>> 'RUBID01...', past auctions of T801 units have been labelled with things
>> like 'RUBID048', the hex switches seem to be set correctly for use with an
>> internal reference as well so I was quietly confident they had the Rb
>> option fitted.
>>
>> Now I just have to cross my fingers that mine arrive with the Rb in good
>> conditon. The seller also states 'working order' so there's possible scope
>> for a refund if it doesn't.
>>
>> On 12 January 2016 at 12:24, GandalfG8--- via time-nuts <
>> time-nuts at febo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Are these the references with a rubidium oscillator ?  They seem  to
>> have
>> > similar models with OCXOs etc.
>> > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111862884745
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------
>> > Well now, how's this for a happy coincidence.........
>> >
>> > I've just received an email from a friend who bought a Tait T801 from
>> that
>> > very same auction, asking about the rubidium module that he  found
>> inside
>> > it:-)
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > Nigel
>> > Gm8PZR
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Clint.
>>
>> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
>> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>

From chris at chriscaudle.org  Wed Jan 13 11:51:09 2016
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:51:09 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <1081278D-DC37-4BB0-A5D8-2FA4192E47CB@kfu.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
 <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <5CF93E20-5143-4025-877D-195A35022595@kfu.com>
 <1a390fdc9e75021ea980a5c29952f684.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <1081278D-DC37-4BB0-A5D8-2FA4192E47CB@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <ae53740d38dcc59b06f1e4a6ffc32f02.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

On Wed, January 13, 2016 8:30 am, Nick Sayer wrote:
>> No, ntpd would be getting time from the serial port, not from the
>> network socket.
>
> You're right. I may be wrong, but I would expect that either gapd or
> ser2net would want to open the serial device exclusively, which would
> spoil things.
...
> You might investigate whether you could make some sort of intermediate
> service that could be a client of gpsd and provide the listening socket
> for LH.

That is the right approach, and someone has already done that.
If I had seen this before I completely forgot, but my old friend N5TNL
pointed me to:
Original code written for BSD:
http://ralphsmith.org/~ralph/thunderbolt.tar.gz

Patches for linux and info by Leigh Klotz (WA5ZNU):
http://wa5znu.org/2011/08/tbolt/

The  original announcement for the BSD version was almost 6 years ago by
Ralph Smith:
https://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts at febo.com/msg26128.html

The follow-up by Leigh was right at 4 years ago:
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-January/062566.html


Summary is the thunderboltd service runs and communicates with the
Thunderbolt, provides a network port for Lady Heather to connect to for
remote display and control of the Thunderbolt, and places the time into a
shared memory region for ntpd to pick up.

It works on x86, so I'm getting ready to install an ARM compiler to see if
it compiles cleanly for ARM.  I don't have the right RS232 level
translator yet to connect my Thunderbolt to my ARM system (BeagleBone
Black in my case, not RPi), so I can't check it out directly yet.

-- 
Chris Caudle




From nsayer at kfu.com  Wed Jan 13 15:12:39 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:12:39 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>

Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>> 
>> Edésio
>> 
>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>> Hey Guys,
>>> 
>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>> 
>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>> 
>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jerome
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From nsayer at kfu.com  Wed Jan 13 21:35:51 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 18:35:51 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>

The code is at

https://github.com/nsayer/GPS-disciplined-OXCO/blob/master/tiny_divider.c

It’s a first cut. The code at the moment will just divide the input clock by 10 million, so you get a 1 PPS 50% duty square wave out. It should run on any ATTinyx5 model - it certainly will fit on at ATTiny25 if you wish.

I’ve not exhaustively tested it yet. I need to feed it into my TIA to make sure it’s exactly 1 Hz - it’s conceivable I’ve committed a fencepost error that would make it off enough that my scope can’t tell (my TIA is busy at the moment).

I believe the code won’t do the math properly below 10 MHz. You’d need to select the next lower prescale setting and change a couple of the formulae, but I don’t foresee an issue with doing so.

I’ll come back with an exhaustive test report (and any bug fixes) when I get my TIA back from GPSDO ADEV duty. :)

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Nick Sayer <nsayer at kfu.com> wrote:
> 
> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi!
>>> 
>>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>>> 
>>> Edésio
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>> 
>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>> 
>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>> 
>>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jerome
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.


From bpl521 at outlook.com  Wed Jan 13 23:11:02 2016
From: bpl521 at outlook.com (Bryan _)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 20:11:02 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>,
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>,
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>,
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <BAY180-W78A4711A3254479C4D579494CC0@phx.gbl>

Nick, can the Attiny25 divide down a 20Mhz input. I understand the 12fxxx pics max out at 20Mhz on a input so not sure if they would be suitable for my purpose. Can't seem to find anything in the datasheet for the tiny that explains the maximum frequency on a input pin.

-=Bryan=-

> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:12:39 -0800
> To: nsayer at kfu.com; time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
> From: time-nuts at febo.com
> 
> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
> > 
> >> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Hi!
> >> 
> >> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
> >> 
> >> Edésio
> >> 
> >>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
> >>> Hey Guys,
> >>> 
> >>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
> >>> 
> >>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
> >>> 
> >>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Jerome
> >>> 
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 		 	   		  

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Jan 14 07:11:18 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 07:11:18 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <BAY180-W78A4711A3254479C4D579494CC0@phx.gbl>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <BAY180-W78A4711A3254479C4D579494CC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <610F0941-F660-462F-8B79-90CF381F0BF5@n1k.org>

Hi

The way pretty much all of these work is to take the “10 MHz” in on the clock input port. 
The critical spec is the upper frequency for an external clock input. With some chips this
is in the vicinity of 50 MHz. On others it tops out at 4 MHz.

The next step after wiring it up is to check the jitter on the resulting output. It would be 
nice if all input circuits were designed equally well. There is evidence out there that this
is not the case…..In some cases the performance can be improved by feeding the MCU
input with a high slew rate signal rather than a sine wave. About all that takes is a single
gate. 

Bob


> On Jan 13, 2016, at 11:11 PM, Bryan _ <bpl521 at outlook.com> wrote:
> 
> Nick, can the Attiny25 divide down a 20Mhz input. I understand the 12fxxx pics max out at 20Mhz on a input so not sure if they would be suitable for my purpose. Can't seem to find anything in the datasheet for the tiny that explains the maximum frequency on a input pin.
> 
> -=Bryan=-
> 
>> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:12:39 -0800
>> To: nsayer at kfu.com; time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
>> From: time-nuts at febo.com
>> 
>> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi!
>>>> 
>>>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>>>> 
>>>> Edésio
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jerome
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From watsondaniel3 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 07:20:44 2016
From: watsondaniel3 at gmail.com (Daniel Watson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 07:20:44 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <D03AE438-7A3C-4F2C-9326-D7642B3F2B86@gmail.com>

I'm curious if that code will perform the intended function (down to the clock cycle) when compiled. A check in the simulator would be a good idea while the TIA is busy.

If it doesn't give you the performance you are looking for, try programming it in assembly, as was done for the PicDiv.

Dan

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 9:35 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> The code is at
> 
> https://github.com/nsayer/GPS-disciplined-OXCO/blob/master/tiny_divider.c
> 
> It’s a first cut. The code at the moment will just divide the input clock by 10 million, so you get a 1 PPS 50% duty square wave out. It should run on any ATTinyx5 model - it certainly will fit on at ATTiny25 if you wish.
> 
> I’ve not exhaustively tested it yet. I need to feed it into my TIA to make sure it’s exactly 1 Hz - it’s conceivable I’ve committed a fencepost error that would make it off enough that my scope can’t tell (my TIA is busy at the moment).
> 
> I believe the code won’t do the math properly below 10 MHz. You’d need to select the next lower prescale setting and change a couple of the formulae, but I don’t foresee an issue with doing so.
> 
> I’ll come back with an exhaustive test report (and any bug fixes) when I get my TIA back from GPSDO ADEV duty. :)
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Nick Sayer <nsayer at kfu.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi!
>>>> 
>>>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>>>> 
>>>> Edésio
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jerome
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Jan 14 09:38:33 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 15:38:33 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
Message-ID: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>

Moin,

I have here a setup with four (FPGA) nodes that produce synchronized pulses
with a 20kHz rate. I have two SR620s two measure those pulses.

Because the SR620s are not fast enought to capture all pulses, and because
i want them to be synchronized, I set up one of the nodes to generate an
additional pulse every 100ms (10Hz rate) 20us before the "main" pulse,
and feed that to the two EXT trigger inputs of the SR620s.

The two SR620s are both connected to an FS725 Rb frequency standard
(mostly because we have them around and nobody else uses them :-)

Now, I use Timelab (running on Windows XP, in a virtualbox on a linux system),
using two serial-to-USB converters (FT232), which are passed as raw USB
devices into windows. Capturing both SR620s together in timelab, I see
one of the SR620s "producing" less samples than the other.
Quite considerably less (it looks like 1-3% less or so).

I have already checked and rechecked the trigger settings, the trigger
voltages etc, but I cannot find why one produces less samples than the other.
I have changed cables, swapped nodes. But it's still the same SR620 that
loses samples.

Another curious thing I see that I couldn't make sense of is, that from
time to time, on both of the SR620s, I see time differences of 1s (yes,
one full second). Given that the FPGAs produce a pulse every 50us, this
shouldn't be possible, unless the crystal oscillator stops.


Any idea what I might have done wrong or what the cause is?

			Attila Kinali


-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From time at patoka.org  Thu Jan 14 09:50:15 2016
From: time at patoka.org (Vlad)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 09:50:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>



I was thinking to make a frequency divider by using FPGA. Here is my 
attempt to implement it using VHDL.
This is frequency divder plus D flip-flop which I was planed to use as 
source of 60Hz for my Telechron clock.
However I never implement it in HW. Instead I was using STM32F4 with its 
timers.
The purpose was to divide 9.8304 Mhz OCXO output by 81920 to get 60Hz 
and use the D flip-flop to keep output in sync.
Some day I'll return to this with my soldering iron in hands. ;-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Company:
-- Engineer: V.P.
-- 
-- Create Date:    17:58:43 11/09/2015
-- Design Name:
-- Module Name:    freq_div - Behavioral
-- Project Name:
-- Target Devices:
-- Tool versions:
-- Description:
--
-- Dependencies:
--
-- Revision:
-- Revision 0.01 - File Created
-- Additional Comments:
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
library IEEE;
use IEEE.STD_LOGIC_1164.ALL;

-- Uncomment the following library declaration if using
-- arithmetic functions with Signed or Unsigned values
use IEEE.NUMERIC_STD.ALL;

-- Uncomment the following library declaration if instantiating
-- any Xilinx primitives in this code.
--library UNISIM;
--use UNISIM.VComponents.all;

entity freq_div is
     Port ( clk_in : in  STD_LOGIC;
            rst : in  STD_LOGIC;
            clk_out : out  STD_LOGIC);
end freq_div;

architecture Behavioral1 of freq_div is

	signal prescaler : integer range 0 to 81919 :=0;
	signal clk_out_i : std_logic;

begin

	gen_clk : process (clk_in, rst)
	begin  -- process gen_clk
		if rst = '1' then
			clk_out_i   <= '0';
			prescaler   <= 0;
		elsif rising_edge(clk_in) then   -- rising clock edge
			if (prescaler = 81919) then
				prescaler   <= 0;
				clk_out_i   <= not clk_out_i;
			else
				prescaler <= prescaler + 1;
			end if;
		end if;
	end process gen_clk;

clk_out <= clk_out_i;

end Behavioral1;

library IEEE;
use IEEE.STD_LOGIC_1164.ALL;

entity d_ff is
     Port ( d_clk_in : in  STD_LOGIC;
			  d_rst : in STD_LOGIC;
            D : in  STD_LOGIC;
			  Q : out  STD_LOGIC
     );
end d_ff;

architecture Behavioral2 of d_ff is

begin

	d_ff_clk : process (d_clk_in, d_rst, D)
	begin  -- process d_ff_clk

		if ( rising_edge(d_clk_in) ) then  --This makes the process 
synchronous(with clock)
			if(d_rst = '1') then
             Q <= '0';
			else
				Q <= D;
			end if;
		end if;
	end process;  --end of process statement.

end Behavioral2;


library IEEE;
use IEEE.STD_LOGIC_1164.ALL;
use work.all;

entity Z1 is
     Port ( z1in : in  STD_LOGIC;		-- clk_in
	        z2in : in  STD_LOGIC;		-- reset
            z1out : out  STD_LOGIC	-- Signal Out

	 );
end Z1;


architecture SOut of Z1 is

	component freq_div is
		Port ( clk_in : in  STD_LOGIC;
            rst : in  STD_LOGIC;
            clk_out : out  STD_LOGIC
		);
	end component;

	component d_ff is
		Port ( d_clk_in : in  STD_LOGIC;
			  d_rst : in STD_LOGIC;
            D : in  STD_LOGIC;
			  Q : out  STD_LOGIC
		);
	end component;

	signal wire: std_logic;	-- put signal to "wire" or use it as a "wire"

begin

u0:
	freq_div
		port map (
			clk_in => z1in,
			rst => z2in,
			clk_out => wire
		);
u1:
	d_ff
		port map (
          d_clk_in => z1in,
			d_rst => z2in,
          D => wire,
			Q => z1out
		);

end SOut;



On 2016-01-13 21:35, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
> The code is at
> 
> https://github.com/nsayer/GPS-disciplined-OXCO/blob/master/tiny_divider.c
> 
> It’s a first cut. The code at the moment will just divide the input
> clock by 10 million, so you get a 1 PPS 50% duty square wave out. It
> should run on any ATTinyx5 model - it certainly will fit on at
> ATTiny25 if you wish.
> 
> I’ve not exhaustively tested it yet. I need to feed it into my TIA
> to make sure it’s exactly 1 Hz - it’s conceivable I’ve committed
> a fencepost error that would make it off enough that my scope can’t
> tell (my TIA is busy at the moment).
> 
> I believe the code won’t do the math properly below 10 MHz. You’d
> need to select the next lower prescale setting and change a couple of
> the formulae, but I don’t foresee an issue with doing so.
> 
> I’ll come back with an exhaustive test report (and any bug fixes)
> when I get my TIA back from GPSDO ADEV duty. :)
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Nick Sayer <nsayer at kfu.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon 
>> as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I 
>> just need a day or two.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts 
>>> <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an 
>>> ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR 
>>> instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to 
>>> solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into 
>>> doing the same job.
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva 
>>>> <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi!
>>>> 
>>>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>>>> 
>>>> Edésio
>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 
>>>>> PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and 
>>>>> repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz 
>>>>> oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS 
>>>>> output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an 
>>>>> HP53132A.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver 
>>>>> consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or 
>>>>> jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for 
>>>>> this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to 
>>>>> within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the 
>>>>> integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 
>>>>> 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a 
>>>>> sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Jerome
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

-- 
WBW,

V.P.

From shalimr9 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 12:32:05 2016
From: shalimr9 at gmail.com (Didier Juges)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 11:32:05 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <5692D5FB.8030502@gmail.com>
References: <BLU181-W39755B157A69BD801B73C5CEC80@phx.gbl>
 <5692D5FB.8030502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0A32C3C6-8A9D-4FC9-A994-26C7DDE5CF43@gmail.com>

For those who want to remotely monitor their Thunderbolt, I am getting ready to put out a new Thunderbolt kit with WiFi.

With the WiFi option, it is a server compatible with LadyHeather in client mode over the net.

The prototype is working, I am ready to buy the production hardware, which should be available in a couple of months.

Didier KO4BB


On January 10, 2016 4:06:51 PM CST, Ben Hall <kd5byb at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 1/10/2016 1:06 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>>> Porting the GUI client to anything else would be a fair bit of
>>> work, though.
>> Not all that much work.  There are only a few routines that would
>> need to be supplied for screen, mouse, and serial I/O.
>
>Hi Mark and all,
>
>How much *skill* is needed to do a port?  I'd love to have a Nortel 
>NTBW50AA / NTGS50AA GPSDO source (while the Z3801 continues to work, it
>
>does fail self-test), but the thought of having yet another Windows PC 
>going in the shack gives me hives.  (okay, maybe not that bad, but...)
>
>A Raspberry Pi on the other hand doesn't take up much space, has the 
>ability to be remote controlled easily, and would probably lead to me 
>purchasing one of the Nortel units.
>
>So I'd love to see a port, but given that my last programming effort
>was 
>FORTRAN 77 and Windows basic (although I'm learning C for the MSP430 at
>
>the moment) I wonder if I've got anywhere near the skills to do it...
>
>thanks much and 73,
>ben, kd5byb
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to
>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.

-- 
Sent from my Moto-X wireless tracker while I do other things.

From ralph at ralphsmith.org  Thu Jan 14 13:06:33 2016
From: ralph at ralphsmith.org (Ralph Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:06:33 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <ae53740d38dcc59b06f1e4a6ffc32f02.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
 <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <5CF93E20-5143-4025-877D-195A35022595@kfu.com>
 <1a390fdc9e75021ea980a5c29952f684.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <1081278D-DC37-4BB0-A5D8-2FA4192E47CB@kfu.com>
 <ae53740d38dcc59b06f1e4a6ffc32f02.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <3e8e7bcb8aec1fca6b10cfa3ae873cdc.squirrel@ralphsmith.org>

What do you know, someone beat me to it, dragging up my old tboltd. I will
check this out on the Raspberry Pi over the next few days, but it should
be close to working right out of the box.

Ralph
AB4RS

> On Wed, January 13, 2016 8:30 am, Nick Sayer wrote:
>>> No, ntpd would be getting time from the serial port, not from the
>>> network socket.
>>
>> You're right. I may be wrong, but I would expect that either gapd or
>> ser2net would want to open the serial device exclusively, which would
>> spoil things.
> ...
>> You might investigate whether you could make some sort of intermediate
>> service that could be a client of gpsd and provide the listening socket
>> for LH.
>
> That is the right approach, and someone has already done that.
> If I had seen this before I completely forgot, but my old friend N5TNL
> pointed me to:
> Original code written for BSD:
> http://ralphsmith.org/~ralph/thunderbolt.tar.gz
>
> Patches for linux and info by Leigh Klotz (WA5ZNU):
> http://wa5znu.org/2011/08/tbolt/
>
> The  original announcement for the BSD version was almost 6 years ago by
> Ralph Smith:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts at febo.com/msg26128.html
>
> The follow-up by Leigh was right at 4 years ago:
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-January/062566.html
>
>
> Summary is the thunderboltd service runs and communicates with the
> Thunderbolt, provides a network port for Lady Heather to connect to for
> remote display and control of the Thunderbolt, and places the time into a
> shared memory region for ntpd to pick up.
>
> It works on x86, so I'm getting ready to install an ARM compiler to see if
> it compiles cleanly for ARM.  I don't have the right RS232 level
> translator yet to connect my Thunderbolt to my ARM system (BeagleBone
> Black in my case, not RPi), so I can't check it out directly yet.
>
> --
> Chris Caudle
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From ralph at ralphsmith.org  Thu Jan 14 12:55:34 2016
From: ralph at ralphsmith.org (Ralph Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 12:55:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Server On Raspberry Pi 2 Model B?
In-Reply-To: <1081278D-DC37-4BB0-A5D8-2FA4192E47CB@kfu.com>
References: <BLU181-W91B367FFC04B30A5AC91A0CEC90@phx.gbl>
 <D601D0DE-6C74-434A-B6F4-FB944054D3BE@kfu.com>
 <DA2B460D-8D2A-485A-8432-4C4A1C3A1829@kfu.com>
 <4a688ca66798592edfa36141e11267c1.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <5CF93E20-5143-4025-877D-195A35022595@kfu.com>
 <1a390fdc9e75021ea980a5c29952f684.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <1081278D-DC37-4BB0-A5D8-2FA4192E47CB@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <0c699b628ef8da6d58c3b8e455444e4b.squirrel@ralphsmith.org>

I wrote a program called tboltd that does just that. You have the option
of having it write the time to shared memory and using NTP's SHM driver.
You can get it at http://topoatlas.com/tboltd/tboltd.gz. It compiles on
FreeBSD, not sure about Linux. tboltd allows LH to connect while it does
its thing.

Ralph
AB4RS

>
>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 4:20 PM, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 7:17 AM, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Can ntpd using a Thunderbolt as a time source run cooperatively with
>>>> LH
>>>> accessing the same Thunderbolt over ser2net?  That seems like the best
>>
>> On Tue, January 12, 2016 4:01 pm, Nick Sayer via time-nuts wrote:
>>> I'm going to guess no, because only one thing can connect to the
>>> ser2net socket at a time.
>>
>> No, ntpd would be getting time from the serial port, not from the
>> network
>> socket.
>
> You’re right. I may be wrong, but I would expect that either gapd or
> ser2net would want to open the serial device exclusively, which would
> spoil things.
>
>>  The idea would be that ntpd was getting the clock time from the
>> serial port, but the time messages would be interleaved with whatever
>> data
>> the Thunderbolt was sending back in request to the LH commands.
>
> You might investigate whether you could make some sort of intermediate
> service that could be a client of gpsd and provide the listening socket
> for LH. If you’re fortunate, LH may be able to just connect up to gpsd
> directly. gpsd has the wherewithal to interleave client access, if I am
> not mistaken.
>
>>
>> LH would also be seeing the time messages, but it sees those anyway, so
>> I
>> think the only concern would be the behavior of ntpd when all the data
>> from LH commands is going by.  Possibly a second concern of whether ntpd
>> sends any commands to the Thunderbolt that might cause LH to be confused
>> by responses to commands LH did not send.
>>
>>> If I were going to do it, what I might do is connect up the PPS output
>>> of
>>> the tbolt to a GPIO pin of the RPi and configure that pin for the pps
>>> device and set up ntpd for that.
>>
>> You still have to get wall clock time from somewhere, PPS just
>> delineates
>> the seconds, it doesn't name the seconds.
>
> Of course. You just have ordinary ntp peers for that.
>
>> For some cases you could have ntpd get the starting time from another
>> network source and just use PPS to keep track of the seconds after that,
>> but then you would still have corner cases of knowing when leap seconds
>> occurred, maybe others.
>
> Well ntp ostensibly takes care of that too.
>
>> And of course if you relied on network access to other time servers you
>> could not operate on an isolated network.
>
> That’s true. My goal, though, was just to contribute to the ntp pool, so
> connectivity is assumed.
>
>>
>>> That way, LH can have the serial
>>> interface all to itself. I've done this with a far more ordinary GPS
>>> module to make a public stratum 1 server out of a Pi Zero for the NTP
>>> pool
>>> (ntp.kfu.com).
>>>
>>
>> How did it get the correct time set at startup?  Did it have to query
>> other network servers to set the time, then the PPS controlled the clock
>> after that?
>
> Yup.
>
>> Can it be a "stratum 1" server if it has to rely on another server to
>> get
>> the correct time when it starts up?  I guess it could if it doesn't
>> serve
>> time until it has checked with other stratum 1 servers to make sure the
>> time is correct.
>
> That’s exactly right - it doesn’t claim stratum 1 until it gets an ntp
> lock over the network (at which point it can claim stratum 2 normally),
> and then it starts to take the pps updates and claims stratum 1.
>
>>
>> Sorry, didn't mean to go off into those weeds, but that isn't the system
>> I
>> want.
>> I want a machine which can get the correct current time without
>> reference
>> to another system, which means that ntpd must get the time information
>> from somewhere, either by directly reading the serial port, or passed
>> through from gpsd which is reading the serial port, or some similar
>> setup.
>> The PPS driver would be connected directly to ntpd.
>
> The issue with the serial data stream in my case is that there’s no
> synchronization in it that’s sub-second accurate. That is, there’s no
> way to know which leading edge of which bit in the NMEA sentence is lined
> up with the start of the GPS second. And even if you get that, the serial
> driver doesn’t have any mechanism to accurately time-stamp the incoming
> characters - at least not nearly as well as the pps device. Now, that may
> not be the case with the tbolt, but with the module that that server’s
> using, trying to actually sync acceptably with gpsd is an exercise in
> futility. It’s much faster to just ignore the serial data and get synced
> initially over the network.
>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Caudle
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From skipp025 at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 14 14:43:06 2016
From: skipp025 at yahoo.com (skipp Isaham)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 19:43:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Vectron Crystal Oscillator
References: <1478507925.5636640.1452800586732.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1478507925.5636640.1452800586732.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello again to the Group, 

I was handed two small 15MHz Vectron Crystal Oscillator modules. They 
are the traditional DIP IC package layout, although only 3 pins exit what 
appear to be the 1-7 row while 4 pins are presented for the 8-14 row. 

There's not much in the way of indicated part numbers, but the date code 
is 8530. 

I can apply 5Vdc to pin 14, ground to 7 and obtain the 15 Mhz output 
from pin 3.  But there is no indication or easily found data regarding the 
supply voltage requirement. 

Would anyone with hands-on experience with these smaller Vectron Oscillator 
modules be able to confirm the typical IC DIP package operating voltage to 
be 5Vdc nominal?  And what you might expect the output impedance to be? 

thank you in advance for your reply 

Regards, 

skipp 

skipp025 at yahoo com 


From jdownj at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 15:35:27 2016
From: jdownj at gmail.com (Nathan Johnson)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 23:35:27 +0300
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>

What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too cheap to
pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but for under
$100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
Nathan KK4REY

Sent using CloudMagic Email
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 02:50, Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
Robs correct on that front. Did not have time to respond till now.
The 8640 is not some sort of synthesized gen.
But it has one of the lowest noise floors of any generator.
So I have several of them and then the synthesized gens like those
mentioned.

Hear that sucking sound?
Its quicksand.

Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:

> It is more of a counter-assisted drift stabilizer than a true phase lock
> as would happen if locking a 10811 to an external standard. Rob, NC0B
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jan 11, 2016, at 1:00 PM, "bownes" <bownes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The 8640 will lock to an external 5Mhz reference. That's what the BNC in
> the heatsink is for. At least that is where it is on mine.
> >
> > The trick is doing a good divide by two.
> >
> > However, that said, the 8640 tops out at ~1024MHz, which if you get
> interested in even the lower microwaves, is not quite enough.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob
> > KI2L
> >
> >> On Jan 11, 2016, at 09:47, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made. The 8656B
> won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement on
> a modern transceiver. Sure you can add external attenuation, but you won't
> know about how much leakage is occurring. Otherwise why wouldn't HP have
> added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the
> 8657B. Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply. No question
> not a starter generator. The 8642A was never intended for field repair,
> but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top radios
> today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen that
> should be on your list
> >>
> >> Rob, NC0B
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination,
> I don't
> >>> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
> >>> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for
> that, or is
> >>> there a website?
> >>> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am
> aware that the
> >>> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
> >>> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on
> the usual
> >>> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge
> investment for a
> >>> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
> >>> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up
> for that
> >>> kind of challenge until I do.
> >>> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix
> scope
> >>> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a
> year. There
> >>> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm
> pretty
> >>> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the
> moment, so
> >>> it's not that bad... Yet!
> >>>
> >>> Nathan KK4REY
> >>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> >>> [
>
https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
> ]
> >>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> >>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> >>> Good thread everyone.
> >>> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
> >>> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
> >>> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
> >>> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
> >>> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets
> you a
> >>> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats
> shipped
> >>> with the units.
> >>> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
> >>> Good luck.
> >>> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn
> thing is
> >>> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
> >>> sure.
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>>
> >>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul,
> >>>>
> >>>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
> >>>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.
> Another
> >>>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff".
> The
> >>>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
> >>>>
> >>>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
> >>>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rob
> >>>> NC0B
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
> paul swed
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
> >>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Nathan,
> >>>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail
> has
> >>>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The
> Ref0
> >>>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It
> works
> >>>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
> >>>> feeding it.
> >>>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that
> has a
> >>>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place
> in
> >>>> price. But it does just work.
> >>>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
> >>>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven
> oscillator
> >>>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are
> great and
> >>>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
> >>>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz
> so
> >>>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
> >>>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then
> you
> >>>> expect.
> >>>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
> >>>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution
> amplifiers,
> >>>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real
> fast.
> >>>> Good luck
> >>>> Paul
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello All,
> >>>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>> many
> >>>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
> >>>>>> am
> >>>>> wanting
> >>>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
> >>>>>> see
> >>>>> that I
> >>>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
> >>>>>> OCXO-based
> >>>>> device,
> >>>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
> >>>>>> accurate
> >>>>> timing
> >>>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>> frequency
> >>>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> >>>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> >>>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
> >>>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> >>>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
> >>>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
> >>>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
> >>>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
> >>>>>> adjustment pin
> >>>>> for a
> >>>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
> >>>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
> >>>>>> build an
> >>>>> OCXO device
> >>>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>> obtain
> >>>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
> >>>> etc.
> >>>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> >>>>> traceable in
> >>>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
> >>>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
> >>>>>> than I am
> >>>>> likely to
> >>>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
> >>>>>> with
> >>>>> unknown
> >>>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> >>>>> appear to be
> >>>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> >>>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> >>>>> standards.
> >>>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> >>>>> 231803015799 on the
> >>>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> >>>>> looked at
> >>>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
> >>>>>> about
> >>>>> what's
> >>>>>> inside.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff”
> to
> >>>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
> >>>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
> >>>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
> >>>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
> >>>>> good luck with.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
> >>>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> >>>>>
> >>>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
> >>>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
> >>>>> clean
> >>>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> >>>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
> >>>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
> >>>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
> >>>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
> >>>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> >>>>> Appriciate any
> >>>>>> and all input.
> >>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> >>>>>> [
> >>>>>
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
> >>>>> _footer_2
> >>>>> ]
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
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> >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
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>
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> >
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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From paulswedb at gmail.com  Thu Jan 14 18:17:11 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 18:17:11 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAhy8WiA2hxtBpEtVNPFePO5xMS9Nuw8s3EY4Xi=Cv+XBA@mail.gmail.com>

I have several here. Mine are the 8660c. They are work horses but god awful
heavy. It really depends on what modules are plugged in. You have the
modulation module and the output module. The basic output was up to 110 Mhz.
There are 2 other modules 1.3GHZ and 2.5 GHZ. Neither will work without the
internal optional frequency extension and that was an option thats not
obvious.
If broken then extending things are difficult since no one has the extender
kits.
Its worth the effort to get it working if its not crazy expensive. At the
cost you have it for not a thing to loose accept time.
Good luck.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:

> What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too
> cheap to
> pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but for
> under
> $100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
> Nathan KK4REY
>
> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> [
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
> ]
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 02:50, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> Robs correct on that front. Did not have time to respond till now.
> The 8640 is not some sort of synthesized gen.
> But it has one of the lowest noise floors of any generator.
> So I have several of them and then the synthesized gens like those
> mentioned.
>
> Hear that sucking sound?
> Its quicksand.
>
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>
> > It is more of a counter-assisted drift stabilizer than a true phase lock
> > as would happen if locking a 10811 to an external standard. Rob, NC0B
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > > On Jan 11, 2016, at 1:00 PM, "bownes" <bownes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The 8640 will lock to an external 5Mhz reference. That's what the BNC
> in
> > the heatsink is for. At least that is where it is on mine.
> > >
> > > The trick is doing a good divide by two.
> > >
> > > However, that said, the 8640 tops out at ~1024MHz, which if you get
> > interested in even the lower microwaves, is not quite enough.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob
> > > KI2L
> > >
> > >> On Jan 11, 2016, at 09:47, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made. The 8656B
> > won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement
> on
> > a modern transceiver. Sure you can add external attenuation, but you
> won't
> > know about how much leakage is occurring. Otherwise why wouldn't HP have
> > added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the
> > 8657B. Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply. No question
> > not a starter generator. The 8642A was never intended for field repair,
> > but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top
> radios
> > today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen
> that
> > should be on your list
> > >>
> > >> Rob, NC0B
> > >> Sent from my iPad
> > >>
> > >>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0
> combination,
> > I don't
> > >>> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
> > >>> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for
> > that, or is
> > >>> there a website?
> > >>> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am
> > aware that the
> > >>> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
> > >>> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on
> > the usual
> > >>> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge
> > investment for a
> > >>> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
> > >>> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign
> up
> > for that
> > >>> kind of challenge until I do.
> > >>> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix
> > scope
> > >>> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a
> > year. There
> > >>> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder".
> I'm
> > pretty
> > >>> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the
> > moment, so
> > >>> it's not that bad... Yet!
> > >>>
> > >>> Nathan KK4REY
> > >>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> > >>> [
> >
>
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
> > ]
> > >>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and
> frequency
> > >>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> > >>> Good thread everyone.
> > >>> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
> > >>> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
> > >>> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
> > >>> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
> > >>> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets
> > you a
> > >>> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats
> > shipped
> > >>> with the units.
> > >>> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
> > >>> Good luck.
> > >>> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn
> > thing is
> > >>> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I
> am
> > >>> sure.
> > >>> Paul
> > >>> WB8TSL
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Paul,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently
> rented a
> > >>>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.
> > Another
> > >>>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff".
> > The
> > >>>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
> > >>>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Rob
> > >>>> NC0B
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
> > paul swed
> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
> > >>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Nathan,
> > >>>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail
> > has
> > >>>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The
> > Ref0
> > >>>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It
> > works
> > >>>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
> > >>>> feeding it.
> > >>>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that
> > has a
> > >>>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place
> > in
> > >>>> price. But it does just work.
> > >>>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
> > >>>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven
> > oscillator
> > >>>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are
> > great and
> > >>>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
> > >>>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz
> > so
> > >>>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
> > >>>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue
> then
> > you
> > >>>> expect.
> > >>>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
> > >>>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution
> > amplifiers,
> > >>>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real
> > fast.
> > >>>> Good luck
> > >>>> Paul
> > >>>> WB8TSL
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hi
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Hello All,
> > >>>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics
> nut
> > >>>>>> for
> > >>>>> many
> > >>>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit.
> I
> > >>>>>> am
> > >>>>> wanting
> > >>>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio
> use. I
> > >>>>>> see
> > >>>>> that I
> > >>>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
> > >>>>>> OCXO-based
> > >>>>> device,
> > >>>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
> > >>>>>> accurate
> > >>>>> timing
> > >>>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something)
> and
> > >>>>>> a
> > >>>>> frequency
> > >>>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
> > >>>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
> > >>>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
> > >>>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
> > >>>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
> > >>>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
> > >>>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at
> the
> > >>>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has
> an
> > >>>>>> adjustment pin
> > >>>>> for a
> > >>>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
> > >>>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will
> probably
> > >>>>>> build an
> > >>>>> OCXO device
> > >>>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the
> money
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>> obtain
> > >>>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the
> lab
> > >>>> etc.
> > >>>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
> > >>>>> traceable in
> > >>>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
> > >>>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude
> better
> > >>>>>> than I am
> > >>>>> likely to
> > >>>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
> > >>>>>> with
> > >>>>> unknown
> > >>>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
> > >>>>> appear to be
> > >>>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
> > >>>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
> > >>>>> standards.
> > >>>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
> > >>>>> 231803015799 on the
> > >>>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
> > >>>>> looked at
> > >>>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
> > >>>>>> about
> > >>>>> what's
> > >>>>>> inside.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff”
> > to
> > >>>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
> > >>>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna.
> It
> > >>>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
> > >>>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
> > >>>>> good luck with.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
> > >>>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
> > >>>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
> > >>>>> clean
> > >>>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
> > >>>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide
> to
> > >>>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is
> to
> > >>>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
> > >>>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
> > >>>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio
> use.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Bob
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
> > >>>>> Appriciate any
> > >>>>>> and all input.
> > >>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> > >>>>>> [
> > >>>>>
> > https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
> > >>>>> _footer_2
> > >>>>> ]
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go
> to
> > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> If this email is spam, report it to
> > >>>
> >
>
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> > >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > >>> To unsubscribe, go to
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> > >>> and follow the instructions there.
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> > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > >>> To unsubscribe, go to
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> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> If this email is spam, report it to
> > >>>
> >
>
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTY4OTMyMzpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >> and follow the instructions there.
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> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
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> > >
> > > --
> > > If this email is spam, report it to
> > >
> >
>
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTgyMjg0Nzpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> > >
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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From nsayer at kfu.com  Thu Jan 14 09:55:23 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 06:55:23 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <610F0941-F660-462F-8B79-90CF381F0BF5@n1k.org>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <BAY180-W78A4711A3254479C4D579494CC0@phx.gbl>
 <610F0941-F660-462F-8B79-90CF381F0BF5@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <262FC256-3822-4A24-9E27-DFAC0600814A@kfu.com>


> On Jan 14, 2016, at 4:11 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> The way pretty much all of these work is to take the “10 MHz” in on the clock input port. 
> The critical spec is the upper frequency for an external clock input. With some chips this
> is in the vicinity of 50 MHz. On others it tops out at 4 MHz.

For the AVRs I generally use (including the ATTinyx5s the subject here), it’s 10 MHz if you’re running at 3.3 volts and 20 MHz at 5 volts.

> 
> The next step after wiring it up is to check the jitter on the resulting output. It would be 
> nice if all input circuits were designed equally well. There is evidence out there that this
> is not the case…..In some cases the performance can be improved by feeding the MCU
> input with a high slew rate signal rather than a sine wave. About all that takes is a single
> gate. 

My testing last night (I described the methodology elsewhere) went to the limits of my TIA. The output from my GPSDO is a square wave, so I didn’t condition the input. In the past what I’ve used for that is a DC blocking cap, followed by a Thevenin termination (100Ω to ground and Vcc) feeding a 74LVC1G17 Schmitt trigger buffer. I don’t know if that’s up to Time Nuts standard or not. The one downside I’ve seen with it is that it kind of requires a larger input amplitude than is sometimes convenient.

> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 11:11 PM, Bryan _ <bpl521 at outlook.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Nick, can the Attiny25 divide down a 20Mhz input. I understand the 12fxxx pics max out at 20Mhz on a input so not sure if they would be suitable for my purpose. Can't seem to find anything in the datasheet for the tiny that explains the maximum frequency on a input pin.
>> 
>> -=Bryan=-
>> 
>>> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 12:12:39 -0800
>>> To: nsayer at kfu.com; time-nuts at febo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
>>> From: time-nuts at febo.com
>>> 
>>> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>>>>> 
>>>>> Edésio
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Jerome
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 		 	   		  
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From xnews5 at luna.dyndns.dk  Thu Jan 14 11:33:49 2016
From: xnews5 at luna.dyndns.dk (cfo)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:33:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <CAG15_6uy=FaG4yKyKaJB_a_Nm9717=BUyk5n6LK6Hk11p2yQOw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <n78ild$5s9$1@ger.gmane.org>

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 14:31:25 +0100, Ole Petter Ronningen wrote:

> Sounds like a PICDIV is just about right:
> http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
> 

Ulrich B made an AVRDIV, for those who use AVR's (bottom of page)

http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html


/CFO


From dk4xp at arcor.de  Thu Jan 14 12:29:15 2016
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 18:29:15 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
 <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>
Message-ID: <5697DAEB.8090600@arcor.de>

Am 14.01.2016 um 15:50 schrieb Vlad:
>
>
> I was thinking to make a frequency divider by using FPGA. Here is my 
> attempt to implement it using VHDL.
> This is frequency divder plus D flip-flop which I was planed to use as 
> source of 60Hz for my Telechron clock.
> However I never implement it in HW. Instead I was using STM32F4 with 
> its timers.
> The purpose was to divide 9.8304 Mhz OCXO output by 81920 to get 60Hz 
> and use the D flip-flop to keep output in sync.
> Some day I'll return to this with my soldering iron in hands. ;-)
>

A year or 2  ago, I have posted a VHDL solution here that fits into half 
a Xilinx
Coolrunner 2C64A-5. When the input clock is pretty (50% duty cycle) it 
runs at
200 MHz in. (tested)
The 2C64 does not take a lot of space:

< 
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/4Bpcfouj8WH0shNGIyuVUtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink 
 >

The bottom row of test circuits are a 100->200 MHz doubler and a 
200->400MHz doubler
with a wide SAW filter to kill the harmonics.

Since the 10811 oven is so big, the Coolrunner will find a niche on the
universal VCXO carrier board I talked about 6 Weeks ago. Also, Charles
Steinmetz' version of the Wenzel and the LT limiter, so we can compare
them easily.

I have chosen to use W.J. Riley's ring mixer PLL and not the AD9901, no 
point to
re-invent the wheel. But that will cost the ability to lock on external 
1pps; only
lock to external 10 MHz is provided.

BTW. I have coded an AD9901 work-alike in VHDL that could also fit into 
this
Coolrunner, but it was never tested because we have solved our problem 
otherwise.

regards, Gerhard



From nsayer at kfu.com  Thu Jan 14 09:45:17 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 06:45:17 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <D03AE438-7A3C-4F2C-9326-D7642B3F2B86@gmail.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
 <D03AE438-7A3C-4F2C-9326-D7642B3F2B86@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A947A6F-ED58-4A2A-9FE5-2CB161DBA14C@kfu.com>


> On Jan 14, 2016, at 4:20 AM, Daniel Watson <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm curious if that code will perform the intended function (down to the clock cycle) when compiled. A check in the simulator would be a good idea while the TIA is busy.

I did a test last night (I accidentally bonked the device I was testing and it sort of went nuts, so I had to start it over) and found and fixed a fencepost bug. After that, it was accurate down to the limits of my TIA (something like the 10s of ps range). My test methodology was to feed 10 MHz from one of my GPSDOs into the TIA reference and the same 10 MHz into the device input. I then had the TIA perform period measurements with a 10 second gate. The result was 1 second, ± maybe a dozen or two ps on average, but again, that’s where the limits of my TIA (Keysight 53220A) lie.

> 
> If it doesn’t give you the performance you are looking for, try programming it in assembly, as was done for the PicDiv.

The whole point of using the timer subsystem the way I am is so that you don’t have to care about the instruction timings. As long as the code is quick enough not to overrun any interrupts, it’s all good. And by using the timer prescaler, you have pretty good assurance that that’s the case.

> 
> Dan
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 9:35 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> The code is at
>> 
>> https://github.com/nsayer/GPS-disciplined-OXCO/blob/master/tiny_divider.c
>> 
>> It’s a first cut. The code at the moment will just divide the input clock by 10 million, so you get a 1 PPS 50% duty square wave out. It should run on any ATTinyx5 model - it certainly will fit on at ATTiny25 if you wish.
>> 
>> I’ve not exhaustively tested it yet. I need to feed it into my TIA to make sure it’s exactly 1 Hz - it’s conceivable I’ve committed a fencepost error that would make it off enough that my scope can’t tell (my TIA is busy at the moment).
>> 
>> I believe the code won’t do the math properly below 10 MHz. You’d need to select the next lower prescale setting and change a couple of the formulae, but I don’t foresee an issue with doing so.
>> 
>> I’ll come back with an exhaustive test report (and any bug fixes) when I get my TIA back from GPSDO ADEV duty. :)
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Nick Sayer <nsayer at kfu.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>>>>> 
>>>>> Edésio
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Jerome
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.


From bobdarby at triad.rr.com  Thu Jan 14 13:19:14 2016
From: bobdarby at triad.rr.com (Robert Darby)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:19:14 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <D03AE438-7A3C-4F2C-9326-D7642B3F2B86@gmail.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
 <D03AE438-7A3C-4F2C-9326-D7642B3F2B86@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5697E6A2.4080502@triad.rr.com>

I and others have written divider routines in assembler for the ATtiny25 
etc.  The version I have is crude but divides by 10, 100, and 1000.  I 
also have a version that divides by 1E4, 1E5, and 1E6.  I also have a 
version that generates 3 pps outputs, one with a 50% duty cycle plus 
positive and negative short duration pulses.

All three sync up to the 10 MHz clock using a pps input.  The sync takes 
about 2 to 3 s, is within several clock cycles (adjustable) but always 
has one clock cycle  uncertainty.  Basically we look for an interrupt on 
the pps input and if one occurs we poll the pin to find the next one.  
This leads to the one cycle uncertainty.  I tried interrupts but had 
more variance than polling - ymmv. If there is no pps interrupt the wdt 
times out and we jump into the main loop.

I'm working from memory but I seem to recall there's several ns 
variation between the three outputs and they change about 14 to 16 ns 
after the clock.

I'm happy to email the assembler code to anyone who wants to start from 
it.  Its crude and will need testing/tweeking.  I have several chips in 
use that work well but I just changed a few things and have not burned 
and tested the changes in a circuit.

Drop me a line if you want the sources.

bob



On 1/14/2016 7:20 AM, Daniel Watson wrote:
> I'm curious if that code will perform the intended function (down to the clock cycle) when compiled. A check in the simulator would be a good idea while the TIA is busy.
>
> If it doesn't give you the performance you are looking for, try programming it in assembly, as was done for the PicDiv.
>
> Dan
>
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 9:35 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>
>> The code is at
>>
>> https://github.com/nsayer/GPS-disciplined-OXCO/blob/master/tiny_divider.c
>>
>> It’s a first cut. The code at the moment will just divide the input clock by 10 million, so you get a 1 PPS 50% duty square wave out. It should run on any ATTinyx5 model - it certainly will fit on at ATTiny25 if you wish.
>>
>> I’ve not exhaustively tested it yet. I need to feed it into my TIA to make sure it’s exactly 1 Hz - it’s conceivable I’ve committed a fencepost error that would make it off enough that my scope can’t tell (my TIA is busy at the moment).
>>
>> I believe the code won’t do the math properly below 10 MHz. You’d need to select the next lower prescale setting and change a couple of the formulae, but I don’t foresee an issue with doing so.
>>
>> I’ll come back with an exhaustive test report (and any bug fixes) when I get my TIA back from GPSDO ADEV duty. :)
>>
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Nick Sayer <nsayer at kfu.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just shy of a half dozen folks have asked, so I'll post here as soon as I finish cleaning it up. I'll put it on Github when it's ready. I just need a day or two.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:23 AM, Edesio Costa e Silva <time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>> Try TVB's picDiv at http://www.leapsecond.com/pic/picdiv.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:22:09AM +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Guys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Jerome
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From time at patoka.org  Thu Jan 14 16:36:02 2016
From: time at patoka.org (Vlad)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:36:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
 <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>
Message-ID: <94ee8914e95ac106a251f96cca369f4b@www.patoka.ca>


Following my previous note: today I did create simple test installation 
using CPLD Xilinx XC2C32A. The project just get input from 50Mhz OSC and 
divide it to get 1Hz output to send it to two LEDs and defined clk_out 
pin. As I program it - the LEDs was blinking with 1Hz frequency. Which 
means its working somehow. ;-)

To simplify it - I was not using D FF at this time (see attached VHDL).


The interesting thing was to look to the report. It said Xilinx CPLD 
needs considerable amount of time to deliver the signal to its "ports" :


Constraint: AUTO_TS_F2F
Description: MAXDELAY:FROM:FFS(*):TO:FFS(*):0.000 nS

  Path                Requirement (ns) Delay (ns) Slack (ns)
  clk_out.Q to LED1.D 0.000 3.300 -3.300
  clk_out.Q to LED2.D 0.000 3.300 -3.300
  prescaler<0>.Q to prescaler<12>.D 0.000 3.300 -3.300



Constraint: AUTO_TS_P2P
Description: MAXDELAY:FROM:PADS(*):TO:PADS(*):0.000 nS

  Path           Requirement (ns) Delay (ns) Slack (ns)
  clk_in to LED1 0.000 3.700 -3.700
  clk_in to LED2 0.000 3.700 -3.700
  clk_in to clk_out 0.000 3.700 -3.700



Constraint: AUTO_TS_P2F
Description: MAXDELAY:FROM:PADS(*):TO:FFS(*):0.000 nS

  Path                 Requirement (ns) Delay (ns) Slack (ns)
  clk_in to clk_in.GCK 0.000 1.300 -1.300


Constraint: AUTO_TS_F2P
Description: MAXDELAY:FROM:FFS(*):TO:PADS(*):0.000 nS

  Path           Requirement (ns) Delay (ns) Slack (ns)
  LED1.Q to LED1 0.000 2.400 -2.400
  LED2.Q to LED2 0.000 2.400 -2.400
  clk_out.Q to clk_out 0.000 2.400 -2.400

So, as far I understood, some delays would be expecting. I didn't 
measure jitter or anything else yet. But looking to those nanoseconds, 
it seems PIC doing better job despite its whole MCU (not just simple 
plain CPLD).


===============================

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Company:
-- Engineer:
-- 
-- Create Date:    11:20:17 01/14/2016
-- Design Name:
-- Module Name:    pps - Behavioral
-- Project Name:
-- Target Devices:  Xilinx XC2C32A
-- Tool versions: Xilinx ISE
-- Description: Simple frequency divider (divide 50Hz clk, connected to 
P1 to 1Hz signal with outputs on P31, P32 and P33
--
-- Dependencies:
--
-- Revision:
-- Revision 0.01 - File Created
-- Additional Comments:
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
library IEEE;
use IEEE.STD_LOGIC_1164.ALL;

-- Uncomment the following library declaration if using
-- arithmetic functions with Signed or Unsigned values
use IEEE.NUMERIC_STD.ALL;

-- Uncomment the following library declaration if instantiating
-- any Xilinx primitives in this code.
library UNISIM;
use UNISIM.VComponents.all;

use IEEE.STD_LOGIC_ARITH.ALL;
use IEEE.STD_LOGIC_UNSIGNED.ALL;

entity pps is
     Port ( clk_in : in  STD_LOGIC;
            clk_out : out  STD_LOGIC;
            LED1 : out  STD_LOGIC;
            LED2 : out  STD_LOGIC);
end pps;

architecture Behavioral of pps is

signal prescaler : integer range 0 to 49999999 :=0;
signal clk_out_i : std_logic;

begin

gen_clk : process (clk_in)
begin  -- process gen_clk
	if rising_edge(clk_in) then   -- rising clock edge
		if (prescaler = 49999999) then
			prescaler   <= 0;
			clk_out_i   <= not clk_out_i;
		else
			prescaler <= prescaler + 1;
		end if;
	end if;
end process gen_clk;

clk_out <= clk_out_i;
LED1 <= clk_out_i;
LED2 <= clk_out_i;

end Behavioral;

========================================================

-- 
WBW,

V.P.

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Thu Jan 14 23:49:17 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 20:49:17 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: Message from Robert Darby <bobdarby@triad.rr.com>
 of "Thu, 14 Jan 2016 13:19:14 EST." <5697E6A2.4080502@triad.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20160115044917.7CF83406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> My test methodology was to feed 10 MHz from one of my GPSDOs into the TIA
> reference and the same 10 MHz into the device input. I then had the TIA
> perform period measurements with a 10 second gate. The result was 1 second,
> ± maybe a dozen or two ps on average, but again, that’s where the limits of
> my TIA (Keysight 53220A) lie. 

Another approach is to use the delay option on a scope.  Trigger on your PPS, 
then look at the next one.

You probably need to do a sanity check on the scope (aka crudely calibrate) 
by looking at a known-good PPS.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From rob at nc0b.com  Fri Jan 15 00:58:50 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 05:58:50 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3FF0B762-D119-41F2-B6B4-462109B34E1B@nc0b.com>

The 8660 is a rather messy generator with five loops.  Its phase noise spec within a 30 kHz bandwidth is nominally 4 dB worse than an HP 3336C. Of course the frequency range of the 8660 is vastly greater than the 3336C, depending on the plugin. There were 4 versions of the 8660, A, B, C & D. I mention the 3336C because while a very handy synthesizer, its phase noise is terrible compared to the 8640A/B. It depends on what you want to do with your generator. As you said, if it can be purchased and shipped for $100, why not. Alignment of the 8660 is a pain, so expect a project. Hopefully it gets packed properly. Shipping damage of large and heavy test equipment is a really big problem.

Rob, NC0B

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 14, 2016, at 4:02 PM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too cheap to
> pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but for under
> $100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
> Nathan KK4REY
> 
> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
> On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 02:50, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> Robs correct on that front. Did not have time to respond till now.
> The 8640 is not some sort of synthesized gen.
> But it has one of the lowest noise floors of any generator.
> So I have several of them and then the synthesized gens like those
> mentioned.
> 
> Hear that sucking sound?
> Its quicksand.
> 
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It is more of a counter-assisted drift stabilizer than a true phase lock
>> as would happen if locking a 10811 to an external standard. Rob, NC0B
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 1:00 PM, "bownes" <bownes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The 8640 will lock to an external 5Mhz reference. That's what the BNC in
>> the heatsink is for. At least that is where it is on mine.
>>> 
>>> The trick is doing a good divide by two.
>>> 
>>> However, that said, the 8640 tops out at ~1024MHz, which if you get
>> interested in even the lower microwaves, is not quite enough.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> KI2L
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 09:47, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made. The 8656B
>> won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement on
>> a modern transceiver. Sure you can add external attenuation, but you won't
>> know about how much leakage is occurring. Otherwise why wouldn't HP have
>> added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the
>> 8657B. Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply. No question
>> not a starter generator. The 8642A was never intended for field repair,
>> but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top radios
>> today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen that
>> should be on your list
>>>> 
>>>> Rob, NC0B
>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination,
>> I don't
>>>>> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
>>>>> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for
>> that, or is
>>>>> there a website?
>>>>> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am
>> aware that the
>>>>> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
>>>>> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on
>> the usual
>>>>> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge
>> investment for a
>>>>> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
>>>>> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up
>> for that
>>>>> kind of challenge until I do.
>>>>> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix
>> scope
>>>>> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a
>> year. There
>>>>> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm
>> pretty
>>>>> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the
>> moment, so
>>>>> it's not that bad... Yet!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>>>> [
> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
>> ]
>>>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>>>>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Good thread everyone.
>>>>> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
>>>>> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
>>>>> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
>>>>> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
>>>>> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets
>> you a
>>>>> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats
>> shipped
>>>>> with the units.
>>>>> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
>>>>> Good luck.
>>>>> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn
>> thing is
>>>>> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
>>>>> sure.
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
>>>>>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.
>> Another
>>>>>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff".
>> The
>>>>>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
>>>>>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>> NC0B
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
>> paul swed
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
>>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nathan,
>>>>>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail
>> has
>>>>>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The
>> Ref0
>>>>>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It
>> works
>>>>>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
>>>>>> feeding it.
>>>>>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that
>> has a
>>>>>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place
>> in
>>>>>> price. But it does just work.
>>>>>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
>>>>>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven
>> oscillator
>>>>>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are
>> great and
>>>>>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
>>>>>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz
>> so
>>>>>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
>>>>>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then
>> you
>>>>>> expect.
>>>>>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
>>>>>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution
>> amplifiers,
>>>>>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real
>> fast.
>>>>>> Good luck
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> wanting
>>>>>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
>>>>>>>> OCXO-based
>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
>>>>>>>> accurate
>>>>>>> timing
>>>>>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> frequency
>>>>>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
>>>>>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
>>>>>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
>>>>>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
>>>>>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
>>>>>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
>>>>>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
>>>>>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
>>>>>>>> adjustment pin
>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
>>>>>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
>>>>>>>> build an
>>>>>>> OCXO device
>>>>>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> obtain
>>>>>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
>>>>>>> traceable in
>>>>>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
>>>>>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
>>>>>>>> than I am
>>>>>>> likely to
>>>>>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> unknown
>>>>>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
>>>>>>> appear to be
>>>>>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
>>>>>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
>>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
>>>>>>> 231803015799 on the
>>>>>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
>>>>>>> looked at
>>>>>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> what's
>>>>>>>> inside.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff”
>> to
>>>>>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
>>>>>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
>>>>>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
>>>>>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
>>>>>>> good luck with.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
>>>>>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
>>>>>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
>>>>>>> clean
>>>>>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
>>>>>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
>>>>>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
>>>>>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
>>>>>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
>>>>>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
>>>>>>> Appriciate any
>>>>>>>> and all input.
>>>>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>>>>>>> [
>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
>>>>>>> _footer_2
>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> If this email is spam, report it to
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> If this email is spam, report it to
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTY4OTMyMzpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
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>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
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>>>> and follow the instructions there.
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>>> If this email is spam, report it to
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
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> and follow the instructions there.
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From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Fri Jan 15 01:57:43 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 01:57:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <262FC256-3822-4A24-9E27-DFAC0600814A@kfu.com>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <BAY180-W78A4711A3254479C4D579494CC0@phx.gbl>
 <610F0941-F660-462F-8B79-90CF381F0BF5@n1k.org>
 <262FC256-3822-4A24-9E27-DFAC0600814A@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>

Nick wrote:

>The output from my GPSDO is a square wave, so I didn't condition the 
>input. In the past what I've used for that is a DC blocking cap, 
>followed by a Thevenin termination (100 ohms to ground and Vcc) 
>feeding a 74LVC1G17 Schmitt trigger buffer. I don't know if that's 
>up to Time Nuts standard or not. The one downside I've seen with it 
>is that it kind of requires a larger input amplitude than is 
>sometimes convenient.

You will get less jitter (as well as more sensitivity) if you use a 
buffer without a Schmitt input (it should also be "native" CMOS -- 
with an input threshold of 1/2 Vcc -- not CMOS with TTL input 
thresholds).  For best performance, the input signal should be scaled 
to drive the buffer input quite close to both logic power supply 
rails.  You can use Shottky diodes (1N5711, 1N6263) to clamp the 
buffer input to 0 and Vcc if necessary (I would include such diodes 
as a best practice, even if I did not expect input excursions beyond 
the rails).

Best regards,

Charles



From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri Jan 15 04:14:14 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 09:14:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

For lowest jitter the gate power supply noise needs to be very low.Biasing the input at 50% supply helps somewhat but the gate threshold is never exactly 50% and the low pass filtering effect of the coupling capacitor increases the contribution of power supply noise to jitter.
A power supply noise below 10nV/rtHz is probably required to achieve the lowest jitter. Few regulators achieve this particularly at low frequencies.

Bruce
 
  

    On Friday, 15 January 2016 8:10 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:
 

 Nick wrote:

>The output from my GPSDO is a square wave, so I didn't condition the 
>input. In the past what I've used for that is a DC blocking cap, 
>followed by a Thevenin termination (100 ohms to ground and Vcc) 
>feeding a 74LVC1G17 Schmitt trigger buffer. I don't know if that's 
>up to Time Nuts standard or not. The one downside I've seen with it 
>is that it kind of requires a larger input amplitude than is 
>sometimes convenient.

You will get less jitter (as well as more sensitivity) if you use a 
buffer without a Schmitt input (it should also be "native" CMOS -- 
with an input threshold of 1/2 Vcc -- not CMOS with TTL input 
thresholds).  For best performance, the input signal should be scaled 
to drive the buffer input quite close to both logic power supply 
rails.  You can use Shottky diodes (1N5711, 1N6263) to clamp the 
buffer input to 0 and Vcc if necessary (I would include such diodes 
as a best practice, even if I did not expect input excursions beyond 
the rails).

Best regards,

Charles


_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From attila at kinali.ch  Fri Jan 15 06:13:47 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 12:13:47 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <20160113132335.GA21076@master.softaplic.com.br>
 <844A53D5-332E-4137-B9B3-D3538F74B839@kfu.com>
 <B9BBECC9-C2C6-49B5-BC8B-112D66B4B2EA@kfu.com>
 <8E1CD623-1364-4CA1-A8A8-AAF3C3C72A35@kfu.com>
 <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>
Message-ID: <20160115121347.e8c73a796124afc3d5c75c83@kinali.ch>

On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 09:50:15 -0500
Vlad <time at patoka.org> wrote:

> I was thinking to make a frequency divider by using FPGA. Here is my 
> attempt to implement it using VHDL.
> This is frequency divder plus D flip-flop which I was planed to use as 
> source of 60Hz for my Telechron clock.
> However I never implement it in HW. Instead I was using STM32F4 with its 
> timers.
> The purpose was to divide 9.8304 Mhz OCXO output by 81920 to get 60Hz 
> and use the D flip-flop to keep output in sync.
> Some day I'll return to this with my soldering iron in hands. ;-)

Nice!

As side note: when using an FPGA anyways, it might be good to use
something like a lambda divider [1,2].

I'm not so sure whether their explanation why this improves the noise
floor is the right one, but it definitly helps and is quite easy to
implement.

			Attila Kinali



[1] " The sampling theorem in Pi and Lambda dividers", by Calosso, Rubiola, 2013
http://rubiola.org/pdf-articles/conference/2013-ifcs-Frequency-dividers.pdf

[2] Slides to the above
http://rubiola.org/pdf-slides/2013C-IFCS--Dividers.pdf

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 08:11:21 2016
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 08:11:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <3FF0B762-D119-41F2-B6B4-462109B34E1B@nc0b.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
 <3FF0B762-D119-41F2-B6B4-462109B34E1B@nc0b.com>
Message-ID: <EF5AD4F7-24EA-4239-B0F9-982F07DA6558@gmail.com>

The 8660 is really a sweep generator designed for alignment of IF stages of airband and satellite gear.  Hence its odd frequency selections and it's miserable phase noise performance that being said I have a couple of them and the are good generators for  general purpose use if you respect their limitations



Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 12:58 AM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
> 
> The 8660 is a rather messy generator with five loops.  Its phase noise spec within a 30 kHz bandwidth is nominally 4 dB worse than an HP 3336C. Of course the frequency range of the 8660 is vastly greater than the 3336C, depending on the plugin. There were 4 versions of the 8660, A, B, C & D. I mention the 3336C because while a very handy synthesizer, its phase noise is terrible compared to the 8640A/B. It depends on what you want to do with your generator. As you said, if it can be purchased and shipped for $100, why not. Alignment of the 8660 is a pain, so expect a project. Hopefully it gets packed properly. Shipping damage of large and heavy test equipment is a really big problem.
> 
> Rob, NC0B
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jan 14, 2016, at 4:02 PM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too cheap to
>> pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but for under
>> $100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
>> Nathan KK4REY
>> 
>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
>> On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 02:50, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>> Robs correct on that front. Did not have time to respond till now.
>> The 8640 is not some sort of synthesized gen.
>> But it has one of the lowest noise floors of any generator.
>> So I have several of them and then the synthesized gens like those
>> mentioned.
>> 
>> Hear that sucking sound?
>> Its quicksand.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is more of a counter-assisted drift stabilizer than a true phase lock
>>> as would happen if locking a 10811 to an external standard. Rob, NC0B
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 1:00 PM, "bownes" <bownes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The 8640 will lock to an external 5Mhz reference. That's what the BNC in
>>> the heatsink is for. At least that is where it is on mine.
>>>> 
>>>> The trick is doing a good divide by two.
>>>> 
>>>> However, that said, the 8640 tops out at ~1024MHz, which if you get
>>> interested in even the lower microwaves, is not quite enough.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> KI2L
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 09:47, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The HP 8647A may be the worst signal generator HP ever made. The 8656B
>>> won't even go down low enough in level to make a noise floor measurement on
>>> a modern transceiver. Sure you can add external attenuation, but you won't
>>> know about how much leakage is occurring. Otherwise why wouldn't HP have
>>> added another 15 dB attenuation in the box? That is why I mentioned the
>>> 8657B. Yes the 8662A's reliability issue is the power supply. No question
>>> not a starter generator. The 8642A was never intended for field repair,
>>> but it is the only generator with low enough phase noise to test top radios
>>> today, and something a ham could afford. Again, not the first sig gen that
>>> should be on your list
>>>>> 
>>>>> Rob, NC0B
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 11, 2016, at 8:01 AM, "Nathan Johnson" <jdownj at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I really appreciate all the help. I really like that Ref0 combination,
>>> I don't
>>>>>> see any Ref1s available right now, but you are saying that any decent
>>>>>> GPS+Arduino can substitute? Should I be looking in the archives for
>>> that, or is
>>>>>> there a website?
>>>>>> Minor clarification to my earlier post about the signal gen, I am
>>> aware that the
>>>>>> 8640 won't lock to an external reference. I had intended that to read
>>>>>> 8640-something or 50-something. I'm watching an 8647 and an 8656b on
>>> the usual
>>>>>> site at the moment. That 8662 looks beautiful, but it's a huge
>>> investment for a
>>>>>> piece of old gear that has a reputation for being a bit... Cranky and
>>>>>> opinionated. I have no practical need for that now, so I won't sign up
>>> for that
>>>>>> kind of challenge until I do.
>>>>>> I'm quite familiar with how this stuff multiplies, I have a Tektronix
>>> scope
>>>>>> collection, and have been a lurker on the TekScopes list for about a
>>> year. There
>>>>>> is a running joke on that list about "scope acquisition disorder". I'm
>>> pretty
>>>>>> sure that I'm infected, but I only have 5 scopes in the house at the
>>> moment, so
>>>>>> it's not that bad... Yet!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>>>>> [
>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2
>>> ]
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 04:28, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>>>>>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Good thread everyone.
>>>>>> Nathan you have received a lot of wisdom and humor today.
>>>>>> Yes for sub $200 you can be in good shape.
>>>>>> If lucent remember a Ref0 needs an arduino and a good GPS 1 PPS.
>>>>>> Though frankly even neo6s play well.
>>>>>> If a Ref1 it has a GPS in and no need for the arduino. The $175 gets
>>> you a
>>>>>> ref1 and ref0 combo that tie together usually with a cable thats
>>> shipped
>>>>>> with the units.
>>>>>> Mine were brand spanking new. NOS.
>>>>>> Good luck.
>>>>>> To Ron ohhhh yes no shed or anything but the gear builds up. Darn
>>> thing is
>>>>>> this stuff actually last longer then an iPhone99X due out tomorrow I am
>>>>>> sure.
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Rob Sherwood. <rob at nc0b.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Your last paragraph was a hoot. A ham friend of mine recently rented a
>>>>>>> storage shed to keep all his spare test equipment and parts units.
>>> Another
>>>>>>> ham friend used to have four storage units to store all his "stuff".
>>> The
>>>>>>> disease is not curable with either time or antibiotics.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My XYL will have to deal with two homes with labs and ham shacks, 7
>>>>>>> towers, 13 yagis, etc. when I am SK. Need I say more.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>> NC0B
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
>>> paul swed
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2016 1:56 PM
>>>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Nathan,
>>>>>>> Bob shared a link for the Lucent units and a great amount of detail
>>> has
>>>>>>> been shared on Time-nuts about them. They will do what you want. The
>>> Ref0
>>>>>>> requires a external GPS receiver and another Time-Nuts Arduino. It
>>> works
>>>>>>> really well and the quality of the ref0 seems to be that of the 1pps
>>>>>>> feeding it.
>>>>>>> But they also make a no brainer pair that has a ref0 and ref1 that
>>> has a
>>>>>>> built in GPS receiver. They were $175 but they go all over the place
>>> in
>>>>>>> price. But it does just work.
>>>>>>> Trace-ability is an interesting word around this group. From your
>>>>>>> description not sure thats really a need. Accept for the oven
>>> oscillator
>>>>>>> they all are great and yes even really good oven oscillators are
>>> great and
>>>>>>> can actually be amazing. Not cheap at all though.
>>>>>>> You describe your counter and sig gen they have a resolution of .1Hz
>>> so
>>>>>>> going further isn't really all that helpful.
>>>>>>> Now here is the real issue you face and its far more of an issue then
>>> you
>>>>>>> expect.
>>>>>>> First the generator and oscillator and suddenly you find yourself
>>>>>>> acquiring more stuff. Maybe a RB, then a Cesium, distribution
>>> amplifiers,
>>>>>>> better antennas. Sound familiar? You are doooomed. Back away real
>>> fast.
>>>>>>> Good luck
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jan 10, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>>>> I'm a ham radio operator, for just a few years, and electronics nut
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> more. I have been reading the archives and trying to learn a bit. I
>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> wanting
>>>>>>>>> to develop an accurate frequency standard for "lab" and radio use. I
>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>>> have 3 basic options that are possible on my budget, a decent
>>>>>>>>> OCXO-based
>>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>>>> a rubidium standard, and a GPSDO. My current uses are to supply
>>>>>>>>> accurate
>>>>>>>> timing
>>>>>>>>> to a signal generator(not yet purchased, HP 8640/8650-something) and
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> frequency
>>>>>>>>> counter(Fluke 1953), mostly used in aligning radios.
>>>>>>>>> In the near future I am hoping to expand that to a homebrew HF
>>>>>>>>> transceiver(probably clocking a DDS chip of some sort), and some
>>>>>>>>> higher frequency(possibly up to 10GHz) transverters.
>>>>>>>>> So what I have learned so far about each option:
>>>>>>>>> -OCXO is probably stable enough for what I am trying to do, but by
>>>>>>>>> itself provides no guarantee of absolute accuracy(I'm looking at the
>>>>>>>>> microwave operators "weapon of choice", the Isotemp 134-10), has an
>>>>>>>>> adjustment pin
>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>> tuning voltage, but no idea what an appropriate value is for that
>>>>>>>>> voltage without access to a more accurate standard. I will probably
>>>>>>>>> build an
>>>>>>>> OCXO device
>>>>>>>>> of some kind anyway as an interim measure while I earn for the money
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> obtain
>>>>>>>>> something better, and to validate a distribution amp within the lab
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>> -Rubidium Standard seems like a very nice idea, but it's still not
>>>>>>>> traceable in
>>>>>>>>> terms of absolute accuracy(although the adjustment range of the
>>>>>>>>> available standards appears to be several orders of magnitude better
>>>>>>>>> than I am
>>>>>>>> likely to
>>>>>>>>> need). The available standards are being re-imported from China,
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> unknown
>>>>>>>>> hours or life remaining, and in some cases unknown condition. They
>>>>>>>> appear to be
>>>>>>>>> power hogs. A $200 gamble.
>>>>>>>>> -GPSDOs have many options available, and are referenced to primary
>>>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>>>>> Pretty sure this is where I want to go. I'm looking at Item#
>>>>>>>> 231803015799 on the
>>>>>>>>> usual auction site, and this seems to be everything I need? I also
>>>>>>>> looked at
>>>>>>>>> item# 111514491254, but there doesn't seem to be any documentation
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> what's
>>>>>>>>> inside.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The first item you reference is a Nortel GPSTM with all the “stuff”
>>> to
>>>>>>>> make it work other than the power supply. If you dig into the
>>>>>>>> archives, there is a *lot* of information on them there.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The second item is a Chinese Ham built GPSDO without the antenna. It
>>>>>>>> has the nice feature of being actively developed. If you can read
>>>>>>>> Chinese, you can tune in to the lists that have information on it.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Of the two, I’d go for the first one from a US seller that I’ve had
>>>>>>>> good luck with.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> A somewhat more “do it yourself” option is:
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221852021307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPa
>>>>>>>> geName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> combined with a GPS receiver board. They also are available in a “2
>>>>>>>> for a bit less” form from the same seller.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Each item has it’s plusses and minuses. The third item has a pretty
>>>>>>>> clean
>>>>>>>> 15 MHz output for microwave use.
>>>>>>>> All of the 10 MHz outputs are a bit dirty noise wise if you decide to
>>>>>>>> multiply them up to > 10 GHz. The normal approach in that case is to
>>>>>>>> lock up a clean 100 to 150 MHz range VCXO to the GPSDO and then
>>>>>>>> multiply the VCXO output to microwaves.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> All of them are quite adequate to supply a reference to a signal
>>>>>>>> generator or a counter. All are good enough for normal HF radio use.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Am I missing key points here? Or am I headed on the right path?
>>>>>>>> Appriciate any
>>>>>>>>> and all input.
>>>>>>>>> Nathan KK4REY
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sent using CloudMagic Email
>>>>>>>>> [
>>> https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email
>>>>>>>> _footer_2
>>>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> If this email is spam, report it to
>> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTUzMTgyNTpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> If this email is spam, report it to
>> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTY4OTMyMzpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> If this email is spam, report it to
>> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MTgyMjg0Nzpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> If this email is spam, report it to
>> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MzAwOTY3Mzpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From vilgotch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jan 14 18:44:00 2016
From: vilgotch at bigpond.net.au (Morris Odell)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 10:44:00 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1452790801.19289.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1452790801.19289.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>

Am I missing something here?

I understand the ease and fun of programming up an AVR as much as anyone but 
surely this task could be accomplished  easily with a chain of fast 
synchronous TTL or CMOS dividers. A resynchronising FF could also be added 
at the end to  clean up the 1 pps if required. You wouldn't need to worry 
about the maths or OBOBs either.

Admittedly you would need more PCB real estate but that shouldn't be a big 
deal in most cases.

Morris


>>
>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 
>> (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, 
>> like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same 
>> problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>

>>>>
>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS 
>>>> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My 
>>>> first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC 
>>>> always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time 
>>>> against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>
>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent 
>>>> PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, 
>>>> assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this 
>>>> resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 
>>>> 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration 
>>>> time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 
>>>> 100,000,000.00 cycles?



From nsayer at kfu.com  Fri Jan 15 12:38:14 2016
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 09:38:14 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>
References: <mailman.1.1452790801.19289.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>
Message-ID: <BA275E85-A8DF-4793-80D6-FFAD9E2C235B@kfu.com>


> On Jan 14, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Morris Odell <vilgotch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> 
> Am I missing something here?
> 
> I understand the ease and fun of programming up an AVR as much as anyone but surely this task could be accomplished  easily with a chain of fast synchronous TTL or CMOS dividers. A resynchronising FF could also be added at the end to  clean up the 1 pps if required. You wouldn't need to worry about the maths or OBOBs either.
> 
> Admittedly you would need more PCB real estate but that shouldn't be a big deal in most cases.

It’s quite a bit more real estate. An ATTiny45 is available as a TSSOP-8 and would need a 10k resistor (!RESET pullup) and a bypass cap (assuming the input was conditioned, which it would need to be for a discrete solution anyway).

From artgodwin at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 12:55:23 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 17:55:23 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>
References: <mailman.1.1452790801.19289.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>
Message-ID: <CALiMYruUPoMA46QjDxTsanzOUq_-=EEaQEg3EL3bkPZHJz6L9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Why use a board full of TTL when an $1 8-pin chip will do it ?


On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Morris Odell <vilgotch at bigpond.net.au>
wrote:

> Am I missing something here?
>
> I understand the ease and fun of programming up an AVR as much as anyone
> but surely this task could be accomplished  easily with a chain of fast
> synchronous TTL or CMOS dividers. A resynchronising FF could also be added
> at the end to  clean up the 1 pps if required. You wouldn't need to worry
> about the maths or OBOBs either.
>
> Admittedly you would need more PCB real estate but that shouldn't be a big
> deal in most cases.
>
> Morris
>
>
>
>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an
>>> ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead
>>> of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost
>>> the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>>
>>>
>
>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1
>>>>> PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My
>>>>> first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC
>>>>> always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a
>>>>> master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>>
>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent
>>>>> PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a
>>>>> perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS
>>>>> would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If
>>>>> this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to
>>>>> generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>>>>>
>>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From w9gb at icloud.com  Fri Jan 15 13:41:43 2016
From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 12:41:43 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] LAST CALL for Symmetricom 58532A antennas
Message-ID: <5B1D7275-998B-402F-8D9B-F7D3C2B9C2A9@icloud.com>

David Zoldan contacted me this morning to inform me that their inventory of Symmetricom 58532A antennas is quickly disappearing.  He thanked the time-nuts group for their previous purchases in 2015.

IF you Contact David, at Launch3, and he said that Launch3 will sell remaining inventory to time-nuts members for $25 each + shipping -- while their supplies last.

Thank you
=========
CONTACT INFO (Phone numbers for Orders) BELOW:
 
David Zoldan
Launch3Telecom.com
Launch3Services.com
P: 646.536.3699 | C: 917.374.7482 | F: 646.536.3866 | E:  David at Launch3.net
27 Daniel Rd. | Fairfield, New Jersey | 07004 
Globally connected, individually personalized.


From ke9h.graham at gmail.com  Fri Jan 15 14:09:43 2016
From: ke9h.graham at gmail.com (Graham / KE9H)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 13:09:43 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <CALiMYruUPoMA46QjDxTsanzOUq_-=EEaQEg3EL3bkPZHJz6L9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1452790801.19289.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>
 <CALiMYruUPoMA46QjDxTsanzOUq_-=EEaQEg3EL3bkPZHJz6L9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyJ-YX_NA03dStrsS45Zmm=1x9nReuLaWa+MTSBCpby-pXMNg@mail.gmail.com>

The programmable PIC or AVR or ... chip that will do the job are same or
less than a 555 chip, and a lot more flexible.
--- Graham

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 11:55 AM, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why use a board full of TTL when an $1 8-pin chip will do it ?
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 11:44 PM, Morris Odell <vilgotch at bigpond.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> > Am I missing something here?
> >
> > I understand the ease and fun of programming up an AVR as much as anyone
> > but surely this task could be accomplished  easily with a chain of fast
> > synchronous TTL or CMOS dividers. A resynchronising FF could also be
> added
> > at the end to  clean up the 1 pps if required. You wouldn't need to worry
> > about the maths or OBOBs either.
> >
> > Admittedly you would need more PCB real estate but that shouldn't be a
> big
> > deal in most cases.
> >
> > Morris
> >
> >
> >
> >>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an
> >>> ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR
> instead
> >>> of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve
> almost
> >>> the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same
> job.
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1
> >>>>> PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and
> repeatability?  My
> >>>>> first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a
> TIC
> >>>>> always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time
> against a
> >>>>> master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent
> >>>>> PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter,
> assuming a
> >>>>> perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the
> PPS
> >>>>> would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every
> second.  If
> >>>>> this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to
> >>>>> generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri Jan 15 16:12:06 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 10:12:06 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160115121347.e8c73a796124afc3d5c75c83@kinali.ch>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <2948d0f2710d8bf361c2caaeb3b0bd75@www.patoka.ca>
 <20160115121347.e8c73a796124afc3d5c75c83@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <8862911.YI4L9C0INK@linux>

On Friday, January 15, 2016 12:13:47 PM Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 09:50:15 -0500
> 
> Vlad <time at patoka.org> wrote:
> > I was thinking to make a frequency divider by using FPGA. Here is my
> > attempt to implement it using VHDL.
> > This is frequency divder plus D flip-flop which I was planed to use as
> > source of 60Hz for my Telechron clock.
> > However I never implement it in HW. Instead I was using STM32F4 with its
> > timers.
> > The purpose was to divide 9.8304 Mhz OCXO output by 81920 to get 60Hz
> > and use the D flip-flop to keep output in sync.
> > Some day I'll return to this with my soldering iron in hands. ;-)
> 
> Nice!
> 
> As side note: when using an FPGA anyways, it might be good to use
> something like a lambda divider [1,2].
> 
> I'm not so sure whether their explanation why this improves the noise
> floor is the right one, but it definitly helps and is quite easy to
> implement.
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> 
> 
> [1] " The sampling theorem in Pi and Lambda dividers", by Calosso, Rubiola,
> 2013
> http://rubiola.org/pdf-articles/conference/2013-ifcs-Frequency-dividers.pdf
> 
> [2] Slides to the above
> http://rubiola.org/pdf-slides/2013C-IFCS--Dividers.pdf

A lambda divider is only useful when one wants a sinewave or a triangular wave 
output. In the case of a CMOS divider It reduces output noise by averaging the 
upconverted supply noise produced by sampling the supply noise at different 
phases of the output signal period. When upconverted power supply noise 
dominates merely paralleling outputs that sample the power supply noise at the 
same time will have little discernable effect on the output noise.

Bruce 

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Jan 15 18:09:53 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 18:09:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>
References: <mailman.1.1452790801.19289.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <509F282CA3D94F1ABC2E4C15CD9FE11B@LGLaptop>
Message-ID: <D944958C-5EAD-412C-9DF3-454FDCA2A114@n1k.org>

Hi

The astonishing part of this “new world” is that a very complex chip that is made in high
volume is cheaper than a handful of less popular (but far less complex) chips.

To do this with old style logic, you need to divide by 7 decades. If you do three dual decade
counters, it’s probably easier to use half of another one as to get a different chip. 

Mouser will sell me a SN74LS390 in a DIP package for $1.47 each. The four chips will come
out to $5.88. Yes, there are other chips out there, but not a whole lot. The 74AC390 is no longer
around. The 74HC390 would be cheaper ( 0.67 each) , but lower performance. 

From the same source, a DIP package MCU is $1.37. If I put things in sockets, the costs go up, one
8 pin socket is a lot less than four larger sockets. Same issue with bypass caps, board space and 
all the other “stuff” that goes into a design. 

Putting things in surface mount would save some money, but make the gizmo a bit less “basement 
builder” friendly. There are a *wide* range MCU’s if you real the package to include SMT stuff. You can save
about 40 cents on the AVR by going to SMT. 

At least as big a question comes up when you build the design. Do you do a pc board? If so you likely 
spend more money on that than any of the things above. Do you put it in a box? Again, likely more money
than the board plus the parts. How about BNC connectors? They are not at all cheap. Power costs money
if you buy the wall wart ( and a connector to go with it). 

Even with all the this and that, this is a gizmo that likely costs less than the Pizza Guy will be looking for 
when dinner arrives. I’m not real sure that optimizing the cost is as significant as simply getting off one’s 
back side and actually building one up. We all seem to spend a lot more time talking than doing ...

Bob

> On Jan 14, 2016, at 6:44 PM, Morris Odell <vilgotch at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> 
> Am I missing something here?
> 
> I understand the ease and fun of programming up an AVR as much as anyone but surely this task could be accomplished  easily with a chain of fast synchronous TTL or CMOS dividers. A resynchronising FF could also be added at the end to  clean up the 1 pps if required. You wouldn't need to worry about the maths or OBOBs either.
> 
> Admittedly you would need more PCB real estate but that shouldn't be a big deal in most cases.
> 
> Morris
> 
> 
>>> 
>>> If anyone is interested in the equivalent functionality using an ATTiny25 (for instance, if you’re already heavily invested in AVR instead of PIC, like I am), ping me. I’ve privately written code to solve almost the same problem and it could easily be adapted into doing the same job.
>>> 
> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter, assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat Jan 16 00:00:54 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 06:00:54 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Attila,

On 01/14/2016 03:38 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> Moin,
>
> I have here a setup with four (FPGA) nodes that produce synchronized pulses
> with a 20kHz rate. I have two SR620s two measure those pulses.
>
> Because the SR620s are not fast enought to capture all pulses, and because
> i want them to be synchronized, I set up one of the nodes to generate an
> additional pulse every 100ms (10Hz rate) 20us before the "main" pulse,
> and feed that to the two EXT trigger inputs of the SR620s.
>
> The two SR620s are both connected to an FS725 Rb frequency standard
> (mostly because we have them around and nobody else uses them :-)

It's being used, by you! ;-)

> Now, I use Timelab (running on Windows XP, in a virtualbox on a linux system),
> using two serial-to-USB converters (FT232), which are passed as raw USB
> devices into windows. Capturing both SR620s together in timelab, I see
> one of the SR620s "producing" less samples than the other.
> Quite considerably less (it looks like 1-3% less or so).
>
> I have already checked and rechecked the trigger settings, the trigger
> voltages etc, but I cannot find why one produces less samples than the other.
> I have changed cables, swapped nodes. But it's still the same SR620 that
> loses samples.

Have you tried swapping "role" of the SR620?
Have you tried grabbing data in the Linux environment?
Consider that the virtual box thing might not have the cleverest method 
to handle data from multiple serial devices.
Have you tried swapping the serial-to-USB adaptors?
Have you tried grabbing data on two independent PCs, just to avoid 
issues in the USB handling? (Yes, never mind it won't correlate, just 
check that you get the same amount of data)
Have you tried feeding timelab two streams generated on the linux side?

Essentially, from the counters to TimeLab you have a weak link, and you 
need to consider all parts of it to identify which of them that is the 
weak link.

> Another curious thing I see that I couldn't make sense of is, that from
> time to time, on both of the SR620s, I see time differences of 1s (yes,
> one full second). Given that the FPGAs produce a pulse every 50us, this
> shouldn't be possible, unless the crystal oscillator stops.
>
> Any idea what I might have done wrong or what the cause is?

It's not a consequence of the TI +/--mode such that the stop trigger 
gets in early and you get a negative value reported because it takes 
(start-time) - (stop-time) but allowing the stop-time to be the first?
Check the raw data.

Cheers,
Magnus

From richard at karlquist.com  Sat Jan 16 01:24:20 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 22:24:20 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5699E214.8040200@karlquist.com>



On 1/14/2016 12:35 PM, Nathan Johnson wrote:
> What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too cheap to
> pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but for under
> $100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
> Nathan KK4REY
>

When I worked at HP, I had the chance to discuss this product
with various engineers who were involved in its development.
It frankly wasn't one of the better products in the line.
It has a high broadband noise floor.  The follow on
product, the 8662, is MUCH better.  No comparison.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sat Jan 16 03:00:37 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 00:00:37 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: Message from Bob Camp <kb8tq@n1k.org> of "Fri,
 15 Jan 2016 18:09:53 EST." <D944958C-5EAD-412C-9DF3-454FDCA2A114@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


kb8tq at n1k.org said:
> The astonishing part of this “new world” is that a very complex chip that is
> made in high volume is cheaper than a handful of less popular (but far less
> complex) chips. 

It would be interesting to see the die sizes.

Another advantage of the CPU solution is that you can make a large class of 
changes by just tweaking the software.  For example changing the input from 
10 MHz to 5 MHz or 1 MHz.  That's also a disadvantage - somebody has to write 
the software.

Adding software to a project adds another layer of management problems.  If 
the software is really simple that's not much of a problem, you write it once 
and debug it and then you don't have to fix any bugs.  But software easily 
gets complicated which means bugs, and hardware guys are often poor at 
software engineering and/or project management when software is involved.  
(Software geeks are usually bad at it too.)



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From anders.e.e.wallin at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 08:59:59 2016
From: anders.e.e.wallin at gmail.com (Anders Wallin)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 15:59:59 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amplifier: a look inside the 6502B
Message-ID: <CAPnVNRUQZF-ppubc6ZGzXkheiWZOWMGwD3hct-sfBgJO9Xz6jA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I'm continuing with my distribution amplifier project described here:
http://www.anderswallin.net/2015/12/frequency-distribution-amplifier-first-tests/
http://www.anderswallin.net/2015/12/frequency-distribution-amplifier-v2-simulations/

The conclusion from those v1 board tests were that the AD8055-based
amplifier phase noise floor is at around -156 dBc/Hz while an old
Symmetricom 6502B I have in the lab is at -163 dBc/Hz. It would be nice if
the new design was at least as good as the 6502B ;)

On the v2 board I improved the power-supply with more filtering (BNX025)
and changed the layout to take SO-8 op-amps with an analog-devices style
feedback pin-1 and exposed bottom/GND pad.
With an AD4899-1 the results are in principle OK with small amplitude
input, but I think the limited slew-rate of (310V/us) causes
compression/distortion quite quickly and the phase noise is actually worse
(-150 dBc/Hz) at +7 dBm output compared to +4 dBm signal level ( ca -155
dBc/Hz). Contrary to simulations I didn't get 12 dB better phase noise out
of the AD4899-1 - beware of simulations I guess is the lesson! ;)
I also tried an AD8000, but this op-amp is not stable on my layout
(oscillates at 470 MHz).

Yesterday I opened up the 6502B to reveal a LMH6702-based input-stage and
an LMH6609-based output stage.
The files are on dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3vxyu87ax5cqjyf/AACQWDG3lN5lpnvTAqRXKW9ia?dl=0
Maybe someone in the group already has a schematic, home made or official,
for the 6502B?

To me the signal path looks like:
R1 is 50 ohm (switchable) termination to GND. When in hi-Z mode the input
impedance is R2=2k.
The input stage LMH6702 looks like an inverting amplifier with gain -RF1/R
= -133/100.
The distribution to output stages is via a small resistor R7=10R, and then
there is (small?) loading of the input-stage by the level-detector/alarm.
The output stage looks like a non-inverting circuit with a 1k/1k R21/R22
divider on the input and gain of 1+R23/R19 = 2.

Any comments/ideas of why they use a different op-amp for the output stage?

The powersupply is nothing fancy at all: LM317 and LM337, two devices in
parallel I think.

What are the parts "Dale 100" and "Dale R27"? Someone suggested resistor
networks to me. "Dale 100" is used as the R in the first of two RC-filter
stages on all power-supply pins. What is the benefit of 2 (or 3?) resistors
in parallel?
"Dale R27" is used on the output, just after a 51R1 output-impedance
resistor and before a (very small?) capacitor C15 to ground.

Almost half of the components deal with the alarm-signal, which to me looks
like a level detector built around the dual-opamp LM358, where input and
10x outputs possibly share a common single alarm-trace?

For the next version I will either try to make a stable schematic/layout
for the AD8000 or try the LMH6702/LMH6609. I will skip the alarm-circuit of
the 6502B, and perhaps also change to bipolar simpler supplies as compared
to the unipolar TADD-1/v1/v2 design.

If anyone wants the kicad-schematic I threw together just email me.

Anders

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Jan 16 09:03:39 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:03:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <5687559F-E0F3-4BC4-B1C8-4268A79AB56C@n1k.org>

Hi


> On Jan 16, 2016, at 3:00 AM, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> kb8tq at n1k.org said:
>> The astonishing part of this “new world” is that a very complex chip that is
>> made in high volume is cheaper than a handful of less popular (but far less
>> complex) chips. 
> 
> It would be interesting to see the die sizes.

Unlike the world of lithography, the dicing process has not made a lot of progress. 
Decades ago a 1mm x 1 mm die was about as small as you could get. From what 
I can see that has not dropped by more than a factor of two in 40 years (if at all).
Yes, there’s a lot more to it than just a dicing saw. Things like bond wire attach 
also figure in. It still takes a certain size bond wire to carry a practical amount 
of current …

The net result *could* be a process that does a gate or function  in < 1% of the available 
area. Everything else is just empty space along for the ride (or to provide attach 
points).

Bob

> 
> Another advantage of the CPU solution is that you can make a large class of 
> changes by just tweaking the software.  For example changing the input from 
> 10 MHz to 5 MHz or 1 MHz.  That's also a disadvantage - somebody has to write 
> the software.
> 
> Adding software to a project adds another layer of management problems.  If 
> the software is really simple that's not much of a problem, you write it once 
> and debug it and then you don't have to fix any bugs.  But software easily 
> gets complicated which means bugs, and hardware guys are often poor at 
> software engineering and/or project management when software is involved.  
> (Software geeks are usually bad at it too.)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From rob at nc0b.com  Sat Jan 16 11:32:19 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:32:19 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <5699E214.8040200@karlquist.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>,
 <5699E214.8040200@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <D12D7A6D-950C-4863-BEEB-F2916B31B7E6@nc0b.com>

I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier frequency. 

As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better than -150 dBc/Hz.
Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I have never used or measured an 8660. 

3335A -128 dBc/Hz
3336C -120 dBc/Hz
3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after the 3336C came out.)

As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz 
All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band. 

It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, anything will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  On the other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, or its phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators. 

Rob, NC0B




Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 16, 2016, at 3:10 AM, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1/14/2016 12:35 PM, Nathan Johnson wrote:
>> What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too cheap to
>> pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but for under
>> $100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
>> Nathan KK4REY
> 
> When I worked at HP, I had the chance to discuss this product
> with various engineers who were involved in its development.
> It frankly wasn't one of the better products in the line.
> It has a high broadband noise floor.  The follow on
> product, the 8662, is MUCH better.  No comparison.
> 
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> If this email is spam, report it to
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MzQzODAwNjpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> 

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat Jan 16 13:07:11 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:07:11 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <10074.1452967631@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <20160116080037.13903406057 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murray writes:

>kb8tq at n1k.org said:
>> The astonishing part of this “new world” is that a very complex chip that is
>> made in high volume is cheaper than a handful of less popular (but far less
>> complex) chips. 
>
>It would be interesting to see the die sizes.

Die size is not really an issue until they become big enough to impact overall yield.

And apropos:  I just used a LPC810, to do 5MHz to 1Hz for my HP5065A clock.  It almost
feels surreal to use a 32bit ARM CPU, even in a DIP8, for something so mundane...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From attila at kinali.ch  Sat Jan 16 14:48:08 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:48:08 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20160116204808.ad1c3b120e561303da9063eb@kinali.ch>

God kväll!

On Sat, 16 Jan 2016 06:00:54 +0100
Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> > The two SR620s are both connected to an FS725 Rb frequency standard
> > (mostly because we have them around and nobody else uses them :-)
> 
> It's being used, by you! ;-)

There is another one lying around, nobody uses... and a CNT 91 :-)
 
> 
> Have you tried swapping "role" of the SR620?

Yes, I've done that. Both SR620's lose some samples, but only one of
them loses significantly more than the other.

> Have you tried grabbing data in the Linux environment?

Nope. I couldn't find any tool for linux that worked.
I also tried to run Timelabs in Wine, but that segfaults on start.
Do you have any recommendation for a tool?

> Consider that the virtual box thing might not have the cleverest method 
> to handle data from multiple serial devices.

Yes. But I have done similar things, even more demanding stuff in the past
and they all worked. If anything was amis, then it was usually the USB
stack of Windows itself that screwed up.

> Have you tried swapping the serial-to-USB adaptors?

Yes, but I only have one type of adaptor at my disposal
(but at least a dozen of them).

> Have you tried grabbing data on two independent PCs, just to avoid 
> issues in the USB handling? (Yes, never mind it won't correlate, just 
> check that you get the same amount of data)

Not yet. I'll do that on monday.


> Have you tried feeding timelab two streams generated on the linux side?

What do you mean by that?

> Essentially, from the counters to TimeLab you have a weak link, and you 
> need to consider all parts of it to identify which of them that is the 
> weak link.

I am currently leaning onto some kind of ground loop problem with the PC
in between. Though I am not sure. What I see is, that if only one of the
SR620s is running/connected, then the excursions with the "1s" size samples
are gone. So, currently I'm running only one of the SR620s (the one that
loses less samples) and capture only one pair of nodes at a time.


> > Another curious thing I see that I couldn't make sense of is, that from
> > time to time, on both of the SR620s, I see time differences of 1s (yes,
> > one full second). Given that the FPGAs produce a pulse every 50us, this
> > shouldn't be possible, unless the crystal oscillator stops.
> >
> > Any idea what I might have done wrong or what the cause is?
> 
> It's not a consequence of the TI +/--mode such that the stop trigger 
> gets in early and you get a negative value reported because it takes 
> (start-time) - (stop-time) but allowing the stop-time to be the first?
> Check the raw data.

It should not be. The pulses from the different nodes are within 2ns.
Even if one wanders away momentarily, it won't be able to go farther
than <3ns (the VCXO that generates the clock on each nodes is an ASVTX-09
which cannot be de-tuned more than a couple ppm, combined with a cycle
length of 50us after which the node is corrected into the right direction).
The trigger pulse comes a full 20us before the measured pulses come, so
that should not be the problem. I have to check what the raw data says.


Due to the problems I had with the SR620s and what the group at the TU Vienna
experienced (I am currently using their equipment), we started to ponder
whether we should build our own, multi-input TICs. Especially considering
that we are about to design some ASICs which we expect to be synced up
better than 100ps (somewhere around 20-50ps, limited by the delay uncertainty
of the cables).

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From rob at nc0b.com  Sat Jan 16 15:05:18 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:05:18 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
Message-ID: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B934DD6F@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>

I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier frequency.



As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better than -150 dBc/Hz.

Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I have never used or measured an 8660.



3335A -128 dBc/Hz

3336C -120 dBc/Hz

3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after the 3336C came out.)



As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band.



It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, anything will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  On the other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, or its phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators.



Rob, NC0B








From john at miles.io  Sat Jan 16 16:33:54 2016
From: john at miles.io (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:33:54 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>

Agreed with Magnus that there are a lot of possible variables in your setup that need to be ruled out.  

Are you using the SR620 driver in TimeLab, or did you find a way to get it to emit data continuously via the RS232 port for use with the talk-only driver?  I've seen occasional instances where a counter has ignored every other trigger when used in addressable mode by TimeLab.  It's not always readily reproducible, but the counter drivers in the current beta at http://www.miles.io/timelab/beta.htm seem to be a bit less prone to that behavior.  If you aren't already using the beta, try that.

It's always safest to use counters in talk-only mode when possible, since that rules out any timing problems that might arise in a two-way GPIB or serial conversation where each individual reading is requested by the software as done by the 5313xA, Philips, DTS2070-series, and SR620 drivers.  Some of those counters can be used in both talk-only and addressable modes, but I don't believe that's true of the SR620, unfortunately.  All of the programming examples in the SR620 manual work by requesting each reading individually. 

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

> > I have here a setup with four (FPGA) nodes that produce synchronized pulses
> > with a 20kHz rate. I have two SR620s two measure those pulses.
> >


From KA2WEU at aol.com  Sat Jan 16 19:45:23 2016
From: KA2WEU at aol.com (KA2WEU at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 19:45:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
Message-ID: <952f0.5c6a20f6.43cc3e23@aol.com>

Typically,one should not look at just on offset point,  Here is an  example.
 
73 de Ulrich 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 1/16/2016 7:01:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rob at nc0b.com writes:

I did  some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 
the way it  was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be 
something like  -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier 
 frequency.



As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and  the 8642A is better 
than -150 dBc/Hz.

Actual measurements on multiple  generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I 
have never used or measured an  8660.



3335A -128 dBc/Hz

3336C -120 dBc/Hz

3325A  -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after 
the  3336C came out.)



As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz  All at 10 kHz offset and on 
the 20 meter band.



It depends what  you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, 
anything will work  within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  
On the other  hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a 
receiver, or its  phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most  
generators.



Rob,  NC0B







_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.

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From KA2WEU at aol.com  Sat Jan 16 20:00:36 2016
From: KA2WEU at aol.com (KA2WEU at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:00:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
Message-ID: <96809.64d03f5e.43cc41b3@aol.com>

Did my plot make it ?  Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 1/16/2016 7:01:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rob at nc0b.com writes:

I did  some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 
the way it  was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be 
something like  -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier 
 frequency.



As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and  the 8642A is better 
than -150 dBc/Hz.

Actual measurements on multiple  generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I 
have never used or measured an  8660.



3335A -128 dBc/Hz

3336C -120 dBc/Hz

3325A  -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after 
the  3336C came out.)



As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz  All at 10 kHz offset and on 
the 20 meter band.



It depends what  you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, 
anything will work  within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  
On the other  hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a 
receiver, or its  phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most  
generators.



Rob,  NC0B







_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.


From bobbob55 at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 16 22:37:08 2016
From: bobbob55 at hotmail.com (Bob Bob)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 21:37:08 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B934DD6F@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
References: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B934DD6F@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
Message-ID: <BAY178-W163CBDF24D4AE65DC1666ECFCF0@phx.gbl>









Actually, I just acquired a HP3048a phase measurement system and I’m measuring all of the my signal generators, one of which is an 8660c with the 86603 plugin.  Attached (ignore the caption) is the result compared against the 3048a internal 10mhz low noise reference. 


David
> From: rob at nc0b.com
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:05:18 +0000
> Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
> 
> I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better than -150 dBc/Hz.
> 
> Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I have never used or measured an 8660.
> 
> 
> 
> 3335A -128 dBc/Hz
> 
> 3336C -120 dBc/Hz
> 
> 3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after the 3336C came out.)
> 
> 
> 
> As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, anything will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  On the other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, or its phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators.
> 
> 
> 
> Rob, NC0B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 		 	   		  
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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Jan 16 20:43:09 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:43:09 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amplifier: a look inside the 6502B
In-Reply-To: <CAPnVNRUQZF-ppubc6ZGzXkheiWZOWMGwD3hct-sfBgJO9Xz6jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPnVNRUQZF-ppubc6ZGzXkheiWZOWMGwD3hct-sfBgJO9Xz6jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F1FF18D8-1474-4A8E-9167-FDB7840BBD06@n1k.org>

Hi

Ok, so:

Does broadband phase noise matter in a distribution amp? If so why?

Does ADEV matter on a distribution amp? If so why?

Does long term accuracy matter on a distribution system? (yes of course it does).

Is there any benefit to a distribution amp having a lower floor than the source driving it? If so why?

Is a source likely to have excellent broadband phase noise, good ADEV, and excellent long term accuracy all at once?
If so how much does that source cost? Do you have one?

What is your distribution system driving? Does it care about low broadband, good ADEV *and* good long term accuracy? 
If so, what is it?

==================

The answer to that multitude of questions is what drives the design of a distribution system. Normally designs are done to target
a set of targets for a set of customers. A typical instrument “target” is not in any way impacted by broadband phase noise. There are a 
lot of customers who run instruments off of distribution systems. They *do* care about long term accuracy and ADEV. 

The gotcha is that you have tradeoff’s between each of the parameters. The best approach is to target what you need and ignore the rest. 
To hit -170 dbc/ Hz phase noise broadband and a 7 dbm output, you need about an 11 db noise figure. (assuming it all goes one way). For
good ADEV performance, a noise figure of 41 db is plenty good enough. A couple of pico seconds of delay variance have zero impact on 
broadband phase noise. They are a big deal for ADEV, they have marginal impact on long term accuracy. 

Isolation between outputs likely has very little impact on broadband noise. It’s also unlikely to impact ADEV. Plugging this and that with a “pop”
likely has a bit impact on long term accuracy. Lots of issues. 

=================

So, for broadband phase noise - you need a lot noise figure amp. It also needs to be able to handle the intended output level *and* achieve
that noise level (not as easy as you might think). Add in the need to do all this into a specified load (say 50 ohms), that narrows things down 
a bit more. Isolation is likely to be a function of the package and how many packages you use. At 40 db per package, you may need three
packages to get a 120 db isolation number. 

A logic gate can get you to -174 dbc/Hz broadband. Does it do what else you need to do? Cascading op-amps may (or may not) be easier than 
cascading logic gates. Driving an op-amp into an op-amp gives you a pretty high load on each of the cascades. The final op-amp needs to be 
able to drive 50 ohms. With the gates, the last gate (or combo of gates) needs to be able to drive 50 ohms.

Lots of fun!

Bob


> On Jan 16, 2016, at 8:59 AM, Anders Wallin <anders.e.e.wallin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> I'm continuing with my distribution amplifier project described here:
> http://www.anderswallin.net/2015/12/frequency-distribution-amplifier-first-tests/
> http://www.anderswallin.net/2015/12/frequency-distribution-amplifier-v2-simulations/
> 
> The conclusion from those v1 board tests were that the AD8055-based
> amplifier phase noise floor is at around -156 dBc/Hz while an old
> Symmetricom 6502B I have in the lab is at -163 dBc/Hz. It would be nice if
> the new design was at least as good as the 6502B ;)
> 
> On the v2 board I improved the power-supply with more filtering (BNX025)
> and changed the layout to take SO-8 op-amps with an analog-devices style
> feedback pin-1 and exposed bottom/GND pad.
> With an AD4899-1 the results are in principle OK with small amplitude
> input, but I think the limited slew-rate of (310V/us) causes
> compression/distortion quite quickly and the phase noise is actually worse
> (-150 dBc/Hz) at +7 dBm output compared to +4 dBm signal level ( ca -155
> dBc/Hz). Contrary to simulations I didn't get 12 dB better phase noise out
> of the AD4899-1 - beware of simulations I guess is the lesson! ;)
> I also tried an AD8000, but this op-amp is not stable on my layout
> (oscillates at 470 MHz).
> 
> Yesterday I opened up the 6502B to reveal a LMH6702-based input-stage and
> an LMH6609-based output stage.
> The files are on dropbox:
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3vxyu87ax5cqjyf/AACQWDG3lN5lpnvTAqRXKW9ia?dl=0
> Maybe someone in the group already has a schematic, home made or official,
> for the 6502B?
> 
> To me the signal path looks like:
> R1 is 50 ohm (switchable) termination to GND. When in hi-Z mode the input
> impedance is R2=2k.
> The input stage LMH6702 looks like an inverting amplifier with gain -RF1/R
> = -133/100.
> The distribution to output stages is via a small resistor R7=10R, and then
> there is (small?) loading of the input-stage by the level-detector/alarm.
> The output stage looks like a non-inverting circuit with a 1k/1k R21/R22
> divider on the input and gain of 1+R23/R19 = 2.
> 
> Any comments/ideas of why they use a different op-amp for the output stage?
> 
> The powersupply is nothing fancy at all: LM317 and LM337, two devices in
> parallel I think.
> 
> What are the parts "Dale 100" and "Dale R27"? Someone suggested resistor
> networks to me. "Dale 100" is used as the R in the first of two RC-filter
> stages on all power-supply pins. What is the benefit of 2 (or 3?) resistors
> in parallel?
> "Dale R27" is used on the output, just after a 51R1 output-impedance
> resistor and before a (very small?) capacitor C15 to ground.
> 
> Almost half of the components deal with the alarm-signal, which to me looks
> like a level detector built around the dual-opamp LM358, where input and
> 10x outputs possibly share a common single alarm-trace?
> 
> For the next version I will either try to make a stable schematic/layout
> for the AD8000 or try the LMH6702/LMH6609. I will skip the alarm-circuit of
> the 6502B, and perhaps also change to bipolar simpler supplies as compared
> to the unipolar TADD-1/v1/v2 design.
> 
> If anyone wants the kicad-schematic I threw together just email me.
> 
> Anders
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sat Jan 16 22:04:50 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 03:04:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amplifier: a look inside the 6502B
In-Reply-To: <CAPnVNRUQZF-ppubc6ZGzXkheiWZOWMGwD3hct-sfBgJO9Xz6jA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPnVNRUQZF-ppubc6ZGzXkheiWZOWMGwD3hct-sfBgJO9Xz6jA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2007492236.6720359.1452999890673.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Its much more likely that the 6502 input stage is noninverting with a gain of 1+ 133/100. The LMH6702 is a current feedback amp as such the feedback resistor is selected to ensure stability. Usually the value doesn't change much over a range of gains. A value about 1/2 that recommendd on the datasheet is somewhat unusual.
What is the PN of the test source?

Bruce
 

    On Sunday, 17 January 2016 12:19 PM, Anders Wallin <anders.e.e.wallin at gmail.com> wrote:
 

 Hi all,
I'm continuing with my distribution amplifier project described here:
http://www.anderswallin.net/2015/12/frequency-distribution-amplifier-first-tests/
http://www.anderswallin.net/2015/12/frequency-distribution-amplifier-v2-simulations/

The conclusion from those v1 board tests were that the AD8055-based
amplifier phase noise floor is at around -156 dBc/Hz while an old
Symmetricom 6502B I have in the lab is at -163 dBc/Hz. It would be nice if
the new design was at least as good as the 6502B ;)

On the v2 board I improved the power-supply with more filtering (BNX025)
and changed the layout to take SO-8 op-amps with an analog-devices style
feedback pin-1 and exposed bottom/GND pad.
With an AD4899-1 the results are in principle OK with small amplitude
input, but I think the limited slew-rate of (310V/us) causes
compression/distortion quite quickly and the phase noise is actually worse
(-150 dBc/Hz) at +7 dBm output compared to +4 dBm signal level ( ca -155
dBc/Hz). Contrary to simulations I didn't get 12 dB better phase noise out
of the AD4899-1 - beware of simulations I guess is the lesson! ;)
I also tried an AD8000, but this op-amp is not stable on my layout
(oscillates at 470 MHz).

Yesterday I opened up the 6502B to reveal a LMH6702-based input-stage and
an LMH6609-based output stage.
The files are on dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3vxyu87ax5cqjyf/AACQWDG3lN5lpnvTAqRXKW9ia?dl=0
Maybe someone in the group already has a schematic, home made or official,
for the 6502B?

To me the signal path looks like:
R1 is 50 ohm (switchable) termination to GND. When in hi-Z mode the input
impedance is R2=2k.
The input stage LMH6702 looks like an inverting amplifier with gain -RF1/R
= -133/100.
The distribution to output stages is via a small resistor R7=10R, and then
there is (small?) loading of the input-stage by the level-detector/alarm.
The output stage looks like a non-inverting circuit with a 1k/1k R21/R22
divider on the input and gain of 1+R23/R19 = 2.

Any comments/ideas of why they use a different op-amp for the output stage?

The powersupply is nothing fancy at all: LM317 and LM337, two devices in
parallel I think.

What are the parts "Dale 100" and "Dale R27"? Someone suggested resistor
networks to me. "Dale 100" is used as the R in the first of two RC-filter
stages on all power-supply pins. What is the benefit of 2 (or 3?) resistors
in parallel?
"Dale R27" is used on the output, just after a 51R1 output-impedance
resistor and before a (very small?) capacitor C15 to ground.

Almost half of the components deal with the alarm-signal, which to me looks
like a level detector built around the dual-opamp LM358, where input and
10x outputs possibly share a common single alarm-trace?

For the next version I will either try to make a stable schematic/layout
for the AD8000 or try the LMH6702/LMH6609. I will skip the alarm-circuit of
the 6502B, and perhaps also change to bipolar simpler supplies as compared
to the unipolar TADD-1/v1/v2 design.

If anyone wants the kicad-schematic I threw together just email me.

Anders
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


   

From walter2 at sphere.bc.ca  Sat Jan 16 13:37:24 2016
From: walter2 at sphere.bc.ca (walter shawlee 2)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 10:37:24 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] the logic versus cpu equation
Message-ID: <569A8DE4.1030703@sphere.bc.ca>

I always marvel at the argument that a $1 CPU can out-perform a bag of logic 
which will be "more expensive". this is such utter hogwash, I really felt I had 
to comment.

this view assigns zero cost to the software, development (IDE), programming, and 
support of the code, a cost that dwarfs the hardware cost by many orders of 
magnitude. furthermore, testing and validation of the code is not trivial, and 
it is quite common for uncorrectable timing errors to surface due to device 
archtecture.

further, this design cannot be readily duplicated, making sharing of the effort 
very awkward. the world is littered with abandoned software designs which fall 
into disuse for this very reason. not to mention 18 month obsolescence cycles 
for microprocessor parts. it aways sounds so simple to "just email the code".
but what happens 5 years later?

in addition, the integrity of the design is fundamentally uncertain, as ALL 
programmed parts fail, sometimes within a short window. data retention is often 
brief (5 years, almost never over 20 years, and easily upset by static 
discharge, read cycles, elevated temperatures, radiation and other factors)  
there is *no such a thing as durable code*, it is always a transient design 
element. those who believe otherwise have simply failed to read the giant stack 
of device datasheets that clearly spell this out.  as NAND flash users in server 
farms are quickly learning, drives based on this technology have much higher 
failure rates than mechanical magnetic storage, and the extensive published data 
is quite compelling.

a design based on hard wired logic always works as intended, and is easily 
maintained in the event of device failure. this is simply not true with any 
microprocessor, gate array or pal based solution. never forget that the 
programmed part IS NOT an off the shelf item. the amount of high tech gear 
currently being trashed because of data corruption is staggering.

this problem has surfaced in so many areas of technology from cell phones, test 
equipment to environmental controls, it simply makes my blood run cold to hear 
the fiction of "software designs work so much better than hardware" repeated 
without at least a word from the opposing view.

I have worked all my adult life in the design and support of advanced systems 
and I can assure you that nothing is more troublesome in the field than a 
software based design, which invariably also cost far more than the supposedly 
expensive hardware it replaced. I feel confident the actual cost to make the 
1pps software based divider, for example will be far in excess of the cost of a 
few 74HC390's.

I have no argument with computer based anything, it is merely critical to 
understand the staggering volatility of that platform, the true scope of costs, 
and the consequences of failure. I have watched many companies suffer under the 
burden of software development gone off the rails, and know how much in 
retrospect they wished for a different path.  and yes, this was written on a 
computer, I own 8 of them,
so please look for the real message here, don't go for the sarcastic response.

all the best,
walter

-- 
Walter Shawlee 2, President
Sphere Research Corporation
3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)


From vilgotch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jan 16 17:05:08 2016
From: vilgotch at bigpond.net.au (Morris Odell)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:05:08 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
Message-ID: <000701d150a9$fcff9b40$f6fed1c0$@bigpond.net.au>

Thanks to everyone who responded.

I guess I'm just showing my age (66). 

Of course all those considerations of cost etc are all true especially in the world of the professional who has to make the product feasible for the market. I'm a basement tinkerer with a well-stocked junk box for whom the more complex something is the better. I also have no time constraints. Whether it costs $1 or $10 doesn't mean a lot in that world, it's still less than a bottle of good wine!

Morris

> Why use a board full of TTL when an $1 8-pin chip will do it ?



From dk4xp at arcor.de  Sat Jan 16 18:42:07 2016
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 00:42:07 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <5687559F-E0F3-4BC4-B1C8-4268A79AB56C@n1k.org>
References: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
 <5687559F-E0F3-4BC4-B1C8-4268A79AB56C@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <569AD54F.5050103@arcor.de>

Am 16.01.2016 um 15:03 schrieb Bob Camp:
> Unlike the world of lithography, the dicing process has not made a lot of progress.
> Decades ago a 1mm x 1 mm die was about as small as you could get. From what
> I can see that has not dropped by more than a factor of two in 40 years (if at all).
> Yes, there’s a lot more to it than just a dicing saw. Things like bond wire attach
> also figure in. It still takes a certain size bond wire to carry a practical amount
> of current …
>
> The net result *could* be a process that does a gate or function  in < 1% of the available
> area. Everything else is just empty space along for the ride (or to provide attach
> points).
>

Already 30 years ago when I took my chip design lessons, there
were chips that were pad-bound. If they had, say, 14 Pins, there
was no point to compress everything together since the pad
locations and the bonding dictated the minimum chip size.

regards, Gerhard

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 16 19:40:15 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:40:15 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <10074.1452967631@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
 <10074.1452967631@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <569AE2EF.8040006@earthlink.net>

On 1/16/16 10:07 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <20160116080037.13903406057 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murray writes:
>
>> kb8tq at n1k.org said:
>>> The astonishing part of this “new world” is that a very complex chip that is
>>> made in high volume is cheaper than a handful of less popular (but far less
>>> complex) chips.
>>
>> It would be interesting to see the die sizes.
>
> Die size is not really an issue until they become big enough to impact overall yield.
>
> And apropos:  I just used a LPC810, to do 5MHz to 1Hz for my HP5065A clock.  It almost
> feels surreal to use a 32bit ARM CPU, even in a DIP8, for something so mundane...
>

And how many thousand lines of code (including libraries, etc. that may 
have been pulled in)?

I had just this discussion yesterday at work with someone.   These days, 
silicon (even going into space) is much cheaper than people. Sure, you 
could optimize a hand crafted little routine in assembler. Or, you could 
just load up RTEMS, compile your program, link in newlib, etc., and have 
it working in a day.  If you've got 2 MByte of memory, nobody cares 
whether you use 1kbyte or 50kbyte.

From rob at nc0b.com  Sat Jan 16 23:10:03 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 04:10:03 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <96809.64d03f5e.43cc41b3@aol.com>
References: <96809.64d03f5e.43cc41b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B935019C@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>

Yes
Rob
NC0B

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of KA2WEU--- via time-nuts
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 6:01 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons



Did my plot make it ?  Ulrich 
 
 
In a message dated 1/16/2016 7:01:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rob at nc0b.com writes:

I did  some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the way it  was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something like  -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier  frequency.



As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and  the 8642A is better than -150 dBc/Hz.

Actual measurements on multiple  generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I have never used or measured an  8660.



3335A -128 dBc/Hz

3336C -120 dBc/Hz

3325A  -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after 
the  3336C came out.)



As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz  All at 10 kHz offset and on 
the 20 meter band.



It depends what  you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, 
anything will work  within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  
On the other  hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a 
receiver, or its  phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most  
generators.



Rob,  NC0B







_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.

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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
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From rob at nc0b.com  Sat Jan 16 23:21:40 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 04:21:40 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <BAY178-W163CBDF24D4AE65DC1666ECFCF0@phx.gbl>
References: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B934DD6F@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <BAY178-W163CBDF24D4AE65DC1666ECFCF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93501FC@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>

Hi Dave,

Very good.  Interesting you data is better than any typical data I could find on the web which was -105 to -107 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz. 

I need N0QO to get his 3048A up and running again so we can test some other equipment.

What are you using for software?
At what frequency was this plot made?

I tried to send a moderate size PDF, but it at least temporarily has been blocked. 

Rob
NC0B

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Bob
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 8:37 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons









Actually, I just acquired a HP3048a phase measurement system and I'm measuring all of the my signal generators, one of which is an 8660c with the 86603 plugin.  Attached (ignore the caption) is the result compared against the 3048a internal 10mhz low noise reference. 


David
> From: rob at nc0b.com
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:05:18 +0000
> Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
> 
> I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better than -150 dBc/Hz.
> 
> Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I have never used or measured an 8660.
> 
> 
> 
> 3335A -128 dBc/Hz
> 
> 3336C -120 dBc/Hz
> 
> 3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB 
> after the 3336C came out.)
> 
> 
> 
> As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, anything will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  On the other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, or its phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators.
> 
> 
> 
> Rob, NC0B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 		 	   		  


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From danrae at verizon.net  Sat Jan 16 23:40:10 2016
From: danrae at verizon.net (Dan Rae)
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:40:10 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <96809.64d03f5e.43cc41b3@aol.com>
References: <96809.64d03f5e.43cc41b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <569B1B2A.1030000@verizon.net>

On 1/16/2016 5:00 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:
> Did my plot make it ?  Ulrich
>   
>
It did.  Very impressive!

Dan

From rob at nc0b.com  Sat Jan 16 23:18:42 2016
From: rob at nc0b.com (Rob Sherwood.)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 04:18:42 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <BAY178-W163CBDF24D4AE65DC1666ECFCF0@phx.gbl>
References: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B934DD6F@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <BAY178-W163CBDF24D4AE65DC1666ECFCF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93501CE@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>

Hi Dave,

Very good.  Interesting you data is better than any typical data I could find on the web which was -105 to -107 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz. 

I need N0QO to get his 3048A up and running again so we can test some other equipment.

What are you using for software?
At what frequency was this plot made?

Attached, if it comes through, an example from the web.

Rob
NC0B

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Bob
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 8:37 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons









Actually, I just acquired a HP3048a phase measurement system and I'm measuring all of the my signal generators, one of which is an 8660c with the 86603 plugin.  Attached (ignore the caption) is the result compared against the 3048a internal 10mhz low noise reference. 


David
> From: rob at nc0b.com
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:05:18 +0000
> Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
> 
> I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier frequency.
> 
> 
> 
> As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better than -150 dBc/Hz.
> 
> Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I have never used or measured an 8660.
> 
> 
> 
> 3335A -128 dBc/Hz
> 
> 3336C -120 dBc/Hz
> 
> 3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB 
> after the 3336C came out.)
> 
> 
> 
> As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band.
> 
> 
> 
> It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, anything will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  On the other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, or its phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators.
> 
> 
> 
> Rob, NC0B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 		 	   		  


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From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 17 01:27:52 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 07:27:52 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <96809.64d03f5e.43cc41b3@aol.com>
References: <96809.64d03f5e.43cc41b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <569B3468.7090709@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Yes. Thanks Ulrich!

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/17/2016 02:00 AM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:
> Did my plot make it ?  Ulrich
>
>
> In a message dated 1/16/2016 7:01:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> rob at nc0b.com writes:
>
> I did  some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660
> the way it  was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be
> something like  -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier
>   frequency.
>
>
>
> As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and  the 8642A is better
> than -150 dBc/Hz.
>
> Actual measurements on multiple  generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I
> have never used or measured an  8660.
>
>
>
> 3335A -128 dBc/Hz
>
> 3336C -120 dBc/Hz
>
> 3325A  -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after
> the  3336C came out.)
>
>
>
> As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz  All at 10 kHz offset and on
> the 20 meter band.
>
>
>
> It depends what  you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor,
> anything will work  within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.
> On the other  hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a
> receiver, or its  phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most
> generators.
>
>
>
> Rob,  NC0B
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jdownj at gmail.com  Sat Jan 16 19:29:53 2016
From: jdownj at gmail.com (Nathan Johnson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 03:29:53 +0300
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <D12D7A6D-950C-4863-BEEB-F2916B31B7E6@nc0b.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>,>
 <5699E214.8040200@karlquist.com>
 <D12D7A6D-950C-4863-BEEB-F2916B31B7E6@nc0b.com>
Message-ID: <1452990595789-476a7c7c-800b9e63-60c948ba@gmail.com>

Right now I'm mostly aligning IF stages of boat anchor rigs, not designing 
new
stuff or trying to evaluate performance of newer rigs, so I think the 8660 
will
do the job until I can afford something better. I'm debating what to buy 
later,
but it appears most of the older rigs with better specs and that are 
well-liked
here start at $500(It "powers on") to $1000(Tested and calibrated) and can
easily go as high as one wants to spend on newer gear. I'm sure I will wind 
up
that far into the hobby... Just not yet! I appreciate all the information 
from
the group, I'm learning a lot.
Nathan KK4REY

Sent using CloudMagic Email
[https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 19:32, Discussion of precise time and frequency
measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 
the
way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be 
something
like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier 
frequency.

As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better 
than
-150 dBc/Hz.
Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab. Unfortunately I have 
never
used or measured an 8660.

3335A -128 dBc/Hz
3336C -120 dBc/Hz
3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version. Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after the 
3336C
came out.)

As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz
All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band.

It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, 
anything
will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage. On the
other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, 
or its
phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators.

Rob, NC0B




Sent from my iPad

 > On Jan 16, 2016, at 3:10 AM, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"
<richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >> On 1/14/2016 12:35 PM, Nathan Johnson wrote:
 >> What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too 
cheap
to
 >> pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but 
for
under
 >> $100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
 >> Nathan KK4REY
 >
 > When I worked at HP, I had the chance to discuss this product
 > with various engineers who were involved in its development.
 > It frankly wasn't one of the better products in the line.
 > It has a high broadband noise floor. The follow on
 > product, the 8662, is MUCH better. No comparison.
 >
 > Rick Karlquist N6RK
 > _______________________________________________
 > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
 > To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
 > and follow the instructions there.
 >
 >
 >
 > --
 > If this email is spam, report it to
 >
https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MzQzODAwNjpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
 >
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To unsubscribe, go to 
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and follow the instructions there.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 17 01:24:32 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 07:24:32 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <20160116204808.ad1c3b120e561303da9063eb@kinali.ch>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160116204808.ad1c3b120e561303da9063eb@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <569B33A0.5030801@rubidium.dyndns.org>

God morgon!

On 01/16/2016 08:48 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> God kväll!
>
> On Sat, 16 Jan 2016 06:00:54 +0100
> Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
>
>>> The two SR620s are both connected to an FS725 Rb frequency standard
>>> (mostly because we have them around and nobody else uses them :-)
>>
>> It's being used, by you! ;-)
>
> There is another one lying around, nobody uses... and a CNT 91 :-)

Make sure to put that CNT-91 to use. :)
I have found that it's graph view is handy, especially when you don't 
have TimeLab around.

>> Have you tried swapping "role" of the SR620?
>
> Yes, I've done that. Both SR620's lose some samples, but only one of
> them loses significantly more than the other.

OK. So, the dropping follows the counter rather than the role?

>> Have you tried grabbing data in the Linux environment?
>
> Nope. I couldn't find any tool for linux that worked.
> I also tried to run Timelabs in Wine, but that segfaults on start.
> Do you have any recommendation for a tool?

You don't need anything fancy. A small program to talk to the serial 
port should do it. If you could use talk only, I would just pipe it to a 
file and compare them later.

I really wish TimeLab existed directly on Linux. Last time I tried 
running it under Wine, it worked but didn't draw things properly for me.

>> Consider that the virtual box thing might not have the cleverest method
>> to handle data from multiple serial devices.
>
> Yes. But I have done similar things, even more demanding stuff in the past
> and they all worked. If anything was amis, then it was usually the USB
> stack of Windows itself that screwed up.

Would not surprise me.

>> Have you tried swapping the serial-to-USB adaptors?
>
> Yes, but I only have one type of adaptor at my disposal
> (but at least a dozen of them).

OK.

>> Have you tried grabbing data on two independent PCs, just to avoid
>> issues in the USB handling? (Yes, never mind it won't correlate, just
>> check that you get the same amount of data)
>
> Not yet. I'll do that on monday.

OK.

>> Have you tried feeding timelab two streams generated on the linux side?
>
> What do you mean by that?

If you generate data that looks like real data and then mock the serial 
ports to make TimeLab beleive it is real counters, you can now see if 
the dataflow themselves causes issues over the Linux/Windows border and 
into TimeLab.

>> Essentially, from the counters to TimeLab you have a weak link, and you
>> need to consider all parts of it to identify which of them that is the
>> weak link.
>
> I am currently leaning onto some kind of ground loop problem with the PC
> in between. Though I am not sure. What I see is, that if only one of the
> SR620s is running/connected, then the excursions with the "1s" size samples
> are gone. So, currently I'm running only one of the SR620s (the one that
> loses less samples) and capture only one pair of nodes at a time.

I'm considering that somewhere in that chain, the existence of two live 
streams is the issue. It could even be the TimeLab/counter interaction 
as hinted by John.

>>> Another curious thing I see that I couldn't make sense of is, that from
>>> time to time, on both of the SR620s, I see time differences of 1s (yes,
>>> one full second). Given that the FPGAs produce a pulse every 50us, this
>>> shouldn't be possible, unless the crystal oscillator stops.
>>>
>>> Any idea what I might have done wrong or what the cause is?
>>
>> It's not a consequence of the TI +/--mode such that the stop trigger
>> gets in early and you get a negative value reported because it takes
>> (start-time) - (stop-time) but allowing the stop-time to be the first?
>> Check the raw data.
>
> It should not be. The pulses from the different nodes are within 2ns.
> Even if one wanders away momentarily, it won't be able to go farther
> than <3ns (the VCXO that generates the clock on each nodes is an ASVTX-09
> which cannot be de-tuned more than a couple ppm, combined with a cycle
> length of 50us after which the node is corrected into the right direction).
> The trigger pulse comes a full 20us before the measured pulses come, so
> that should not be the problem. I have to check what the raw data says.

I was hinting at a possible raw-data issue which in the pre-processing 
turned out a bit different. I realize now that dropping samples could 
possibly have the pre-processing react similarly.

> Due to the problems I had with the SR620s and what the group at the TU Vienna
> experienced (I am currently using their equipment), we started to ponder
> whether we should build our own, multi-input TICs. Especially considering
> that we are about to design some ASICs which we expect to be synced up
> better than 100ps (somewhere around 20-50ps, limited by the delay uncertainty
> of the cables).

Well, building your own TIC would naturally be interesting, but adds 
another aspect in that you will have to verifiy them extensively. It 
will be another factor of uncertainty to consider.

Cheers,
Magnus

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 17 01:58:06 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 07:58:06 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
Message-ID: <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org>

John,

On 01/16/2016 10:33 PM, John Miles wrote:
> Agreed with Magnus that there are a lot of possible variables in your setup that need to be ruled out.
>
> Are you using the SR620 driver in TimeLab, or did you find a way to get it to emit data continuously via the RS232 port for use with the talk-only driver?  I've seen occasional instances where a counter has ignored every other trigger when used in addressable mode by TimeLab.  It's not always readily reproducible, but the counter drivers in the current beta at http://www.miles.io/timelab/beta.htm seem to be a bit less prone to that behavior.  If you aren't already using the beta, try that.
>
> It's always safest to use counters in talk-only mode when possible, since that rules out any timing problems that might arise in a two-way GPIB or serial conversation where each individual reading is requested by the software as done by the 5313xA, Philips, DTS2070-series, and SR620 drivers.  Some of those counters can be used in both talk-only and addressable modes, but I don't believe that's true of the SR620, unfortunately.  All of the programming examples in the SR620 manual work by requesting each reading individually.

I think it is the AUTM command that should be used, as it lets you swap 
between automatically start a new measurement (AUTM1) or let it start 
after computer receives measurement (AUTM0).

I have not tried it, I just pulled the manual from the shelf.

Come to think of it, in principle I could duplicate this as I have two 
SR620 lying around, but I think I better grab that second RF section in 
the boot of my car, bring it in and put it into the rack which needs 
rebuilding.

Cheers,
Magnus

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun Jan 17 04:08:53 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:08:53 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <569B3B7E.6090003 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:

>> It's always safest to use counters in talk-only mode when possible,
>>since that rules out any timing problems that might arise in a
>>two-way GPIB [...]

This is a common misunderstanding:  Talk-only does *not* protecting you
against timing issues on GPIB.

On RS-232, yes, but not on GPIB.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 17 04:41:35 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 10:41:35 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Dear Poul-Henning,

On 01/17/2016 10:08 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <569B3B7E.6090003 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>
>>> It's always safest to use counters in talk-only mode when possible,
>>> since that rules out any timing problems that might arise in a
>>> two-way GPIB [...]
>
> This is a common misunderstanding:  Talk-only does *not* protecting you
> against timing issues on GPIB.
>
> On RS-232, yes, but not on GPIB.
>

Agree, to some degree. It's not a guarantee.

I think you should develop that line of thought, to detail why it helps 
on GPIB and why not on serial.

Cheers,
Magnus

From attila at kinali.ch  Sun Jan 17 04:46:51 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 10:46:51 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
Message-ID: <20160117104651.a68e052bbf81902394d5c6b9@kinali.ch>

Moin John,

On Sat, 16 Jan 2016 13:33:54 -0800
"John Miles" <john at miles.io> wrote:

> Agreed with Magnus that there are a lot of possible variables in your setup 
> that need to be ruled out.  

Yes, too many. And it isn't really helping that I hardly understand what
I am doing.


> Are you using the SR620 driver in TimeLab, or did you find a way to get
> it to emit data continuously via the RS232 port for use with the talk-only
> driver?

I am using TimeLab and start two acquisitions. That part seems to work
quite nicely.

> I've seen occasional instances where a counter has ignored every other
> trigger when used in addressable mode by TimeLab.  It's not always readily 
> reproducible, but the counter drivers in the current beta at 
> http://www.miles.io/timelab/beta.htm seem to be a bit less prone to that 
> behavior.  If you aren't already using the beta, try that.

Thanks! I'll try that tomorrow.

> 
> It's always safest to use counters in talk-only mode when possible, since 
> that rules out any timing problems that might arise in a two-way GPIB or 
> serial conversation where each individual reading is requested by the 
> software as done by the 5313xA, Philips, DTS2070-series, and SR620 drivers.  
> Some of those counters can be used in both talk-only and addressable modes, 
> but I don't believe that's true of the SR620, unfortunately.  All of the 
> programming examples in the SR620 manual work by requesting each reading 
> individually. 

Hmm.. I have set TimeLab to do samples every 0.1 seconds, and have an
external trigger with the same interval (SR620 setting ist Ext +/- Time).
Could it be that TimeLab just samples a little slower than the 0.1s,
so that it misses a measurement once in a while and has to wait until
the next trigger arrives?


			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Sun Jan 17 04:54:18 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 10:54:18 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <569B33A0.5030801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160116204808.ad1c3b120e561303da9063eb@kinali.ch>
 <569B33A0.5030801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20160117105418.c3c62932ab291e40fe9ef75c@kinali.ch>

Guete Morge!

On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 07:24:32 +0100
Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> >> Have you tried swapping "role" of the SR620?
> >
> > Yes, I've done that. Both SR620's lose some samples, but only one of
> > them loses significantly more than the other.
> 
> OK. So, the dropping follows the counter rather than the role?

Yes.
 
> >> Have you tried grabbing data in the Linux environment?
> >
> > Nope. I couldn't find any tool for linux that worked.
> > I also tried to run Timelabs in Wine, but that segfaults on start.
> > Do you have any recommendation for a tool?
> 
> You don't need anything fancy. A small program to talk to the serial 
> port should do it. If you could use talk only, I would just pipe it to a 
> file and compare them later.

Hmm.. good idea.

> I really wish TimeLab existed directly on Linux. Last time I tried 
> running it under Wine, it worked but didn't draw things properly for me.

It's like Lady Heather, it needs to be ported to Qt ;-)
 
> >> Have you tried feeding timelab two streams generated on the linux side?
> >
> > What do you mean by that?
> 
> If you generate data that looks like real data and then mock the serial 
> ports to make TimeLab beleive it is real counters, you can now see if 
> the dataflow themselves causes issues over the Linux/Windows border and 
> into TimeLab.

Ah.. unfortunately this would need a bit more fiddling and tool building
than I have time for. I'm only here for another week and have to spend
most of the time learning how to do ASICs.
 
> > Due to the problems I had with the SR620s and what the group at the TU Vienna
> > experienced (I am currently using their equipment), we started to ponder
> > whether we should build our own, multi-input TICs. Especially considering
> > that we are about to design some ASICs which we expect to be synced up
> > better than 100ps (somewhere around 20-50ps, limited by the delay uncertainty
> > of the cables).
> 
> Well, building your own TIC would naturally be interesting, but adds 
> another aspect in that you will have to verifiy them extensively. It 
> will be another factor of uncertainty to consider.

Yes. It wouldn't be something that is done fast. I expect it to take
at least half a year with a couple of highly motivated people as a team.
A year would be probably more realistic. And after that, comes a whole
lot of verification and qualification. But that could probably be done
together with PTB or CERN.


			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun Jan 17 06:52:13 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 11:52:13 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <569B61CF.3030708 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:

>> This is a common misunderstanding:  Talk-only does *not* protecting you
>> against timing issues on GPIB.
>>
>> On RS-232, yes, but not on GPIB.
>
>Agree, to some degree. It's not a guarantee.
>
>I think you should develop that line of thought, to detail why it helps 
>on GPIB and why not on serial.

It's really very simple:  RS-232 sends blind, you don't even need to
know if there is a receiver or what it does.  If the receiver cannot
keep op, data is simply lost.

GPIB handshakes every byte, so the actions of the receiving end affects
the transmitting end - in particular if the receiver cannot keep up.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 17 07:38:06 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:38:06 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Poul-Henning,

On 01/17/2016 12:52 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <569B61CF.3030708 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>
>>> This is a common misunderstanding:  Talk-only does *not* protecting you
>>> against timing issues on GPIB.
>>>
>>> On RS-232, yes, but not on GPIB.
>>
>> Agree, to some degree. It's not a guarantee.
>>
>> I think you should develop that line of thought, to detail why it helps
>> on GPIB and why not on serial.
>
> It's really very simple:  RS-232 sends blind, you don't even need to
> know if there is a receiver or what it does.  If the receiver cannot
> keep op, data is simply lost.
>
> GPIB handshakes every byte, so the actions of the receiving end affects
> the transmitting end - in particular if the receiver cannot keep up.
>

OK, you where thinking about the flow-control.

You can have RS-232 wired up to do flow-control (hardware-flow-control), 
where as flow-control is a standard property of GPIB. On the other hand, 
flow-control in itself only assures the data-transfer but not that 
triggers is not missed in the overall system.

I just didn't want to mind-read you on this one.

So, I don't see how flow-control would severely break in GPIB doing 
addressed mode compared to talk-only mode, it's an orthogonal feature of 
both.

It is however to some degree easier to control the real-time flow from 
only one instrument in talk-only mode compared to addressed mode. 
However, it should be possible to achieve it also in addressed mode, but 
you then need to think through the signaling interaction. Also, as both 
counters is triggered, the trigger interaction needs to be analyzed and 
the dataflow understood in the system context.

The SR620 does not recommend the AUTM1 mode for serial interface, as the 
synchronization between program and data-readout does not become as 
easy. Similarly, the SR620 does not support the binary mode for serial 
interface, but for GPIB, giving almost a ten-fold increase in 
sample-rate (150 vs 1400 samples per second).

Anyway, flow-control to ensure integrity of byte-flow should always be 
used. That will help if we can trigger both counters at the same time 
and guarantee that they are idle before next arming pulse.

Cheers,
Magnus

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun Jan 17 07:45:26 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 12:45:26 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <569B8B2E.5070604 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:

>>> I think you should develop that line of thought, to detail why it helps
>>> on GPIB and why not on serial.
>>
>> It's really very simple:  RS-232 sends blind, you don't even need to
>> know if there is a receiver or what it does.  If the receiver cannot
>> keep op, data is simply lost.
>>
>> GPIB handshakes every byte, so the actions of the receiving end affects
>> the transmitting end - in particular if the receiver cannot keep up.
>
>OK, you where thinking about the flow-control.
>
>You can have RS-232 wired up to do flow-control (hardware-flow-control), 

But the important point is you don't have to do that, all you need
is two wires:  GND-GND and TXD->RXD

With GPIB that option does not exist, sender and receiver are always
in lock-step.

Therefore, talk-only mode is a big advantage in terms of decoupling
on RS-232 and makes almost no difference on GPIB.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Jan 17 08:01:27 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:01:27 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <569B90A7.2090103@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Poul-Henning,

On 01/17/2016 01:45 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <569B8B2E.5070604 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>
>>>> I think you should develop that line of thought, to detail why it helps
>>>> on GPIB and why not on serial.
>>>
>>> It's really very simple:  RS-232 sends blind, you don't even need to
>>> know if there is a receiver or what it does.  If the receiver cannot
>>> keep op, data is simply lost.
>>>
>>> GPIB handshakes every byte, so the actions of the receiving end affects
>>> the transmitting end - in particular if the receiver cannot keep up.
>>
>> OK, you where thinking about the flow-control.
>>
>> You can have RS-232 wired up to do flow-control (hardware-flow-control),
>
> But the important point is you don't have to do that, all you need
> is two wires:  GND-GND and TXD->RXD
>
> With GPIB that option does not exist, sender and receiver are always
> in lock-step.
>
> Therefore, talk-only mode is a big advantage in terms of decoupling
> on RS-232 and makes almost no difference on GPIB.
>

If we can assume the consumption is fast enough to keep track, yes.
If it's not, flow control for this situation helps the border case 
somewhat, but if you are too slow, you are screwed anyway.

In the case that Attila describes, the flow-control helps over the 
various borders, especially as scheduling plays tricks with us. Running 
virtual applications like that does not help to get a grip of control 
over how data is transfered and when. If it where only to get it 
straight into an app really talking to the serial ports, sure, but I do 
not trust the virtualization to handle it all to well.

Not that hardware flow-control would in itself help much, but anyway.

Regardless, if the TimeLab needs to send commands back to the counter 
over the virtualization border, then getting things scheduled properly 
in time isn't really guaranteed.

Cheers,
Magnus

From bobbob55 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 17 10:45:21 2016
From: bobbob55 at hotmail.com (Bob Bob)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:45:21 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
In-Reply-To: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93501FC@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
References: <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B934DD6F@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>,
 <BAY178-W163CBDF24D4AE65DC1666ECFCF0@phx.gbl>,
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93501FC@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
Message-ID: <BAY178-W31B030948690E5AF63CE92CFCF0@phx.gbl>

For software I'm using PN3048 from k35fx's site together with an Aglient 82347b GPIB interface running thru Virtual Box. Other than not recognizing the instruments once and a while, its been pretty reliable. I've also gotten the original BASIC program to work under HT BASIC and surprisingly is more reliable in terms of communicating with the devices.
I  ran the test at 10mhz against the builtin oscillator that comes with the hp11848a. I also ran a test against a Fluke 6070a at 100mhz and got almost the exact same results from 1khz on out. Maybe I got lucky with my 8660c. It would be interesting to see measurements from a few other units.
David

> From: rob at nc0b.com
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 04:21:40 +0000
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> Very good.  Interesting you data is better than any typical data I could find on the web which was -105 to -107 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz. 
> 
> I need N0QO to get his 3048A up and running again so we can test some other equipment.
> 
> What are you using for software?
> At what frequency was this plot made?
> 
> I tried to send a moderate size PDF, but it at least temporarily has been blocked. 
> 
> Rob
> NC0B
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob Bob
> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 8:37 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, I just acquired a HP3048a phase measurement system and I'm measuring all of the my signal generators, one of which is an 8660c with the 86603 plugin.  Attached (ignore the caption) is the result compared against the 3048a internal 10mhz low noise reference. 
> 
> 
> David
> > From: rob at nc0b.com
> > To: time-nuts at febo.com
> > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 20:05:18 +0000
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Phase Noise Comparisons
> > 
> > I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier frequency.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better than -150 dBc/Hz.
> > 
> > Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab.  Unfortunately I have never used or measured an 8660.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 3335A -128 dBc/Hz
> > 
> > 3336C -120 dBc/Hz
> > 
> > 3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version.  Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB 
> > after the 3336C came out.)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, anything will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage.  On the other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, or its phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Rob, NC0B
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>  		 	   		  
> 
> 
> --
> If this email is spam, report it to
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MzU3MjgwMDpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 		 	   		  

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Sun Jan 17 09:34:30 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 06:34:30 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452990595789-476a7c7c-800b9e63-60c948ba@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
 <5699E214.8040200@karlquist.com>
 <D12D7A6D-950C-4863-BEEB-F2916B31B7E6@nc0b.com>
 <1452990595789-476a7c7c-800b9e63-60c948ba@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <569BA676.1060103@earthlink.net>

On 1/16/16 4:29 PM, Nathan Johnson wrote:
> Right now I'm mostly aligning IF stages of boat anchor rigs,

An inexpensive eval board with a synthesizer chip might work for this, 
like the Si570.  Aligning the IF doesn't require great phase noise 
performance. this is probably a <$50 solution.

Pair that with a good step attenuator and a decent power meter (which 
have other uses) and you're good to go.




From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 17 09:49:22 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:49:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member + Basic Questions
In-Reply-To: <1452990595789-476a7c7c-800b9e63-60c948ba@gmail.com>
References: <1452450343546-22e8755d-ee9d9d5b-1a8b04bc@gmail.com>
 <7F5436A7-413F-4C6D-BCFE-8EA37160FF13@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAijw89Y85iFbtvwpY=yXAzUkBpA0m2aAEMTDwn+HePScw@mail.gmail.com>
 <210C7C0599C92B44A8A9DA3AAD266AF0B93200B9@EXCH2010FE.esfi.net>
 <CAD2JfAjNdaVfpj6qR8mSawBR=aYeyHC8u5iuGkxq0VuHKRTgGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452508813078-817c3d73-a0b67a84-f13a46e8@gmail.com>
 <9A1C0217-09B7-403D-8D18-CD762AB2B760@nc0b.com>
 <50C2D40C-9B0D-44FF-92C6-FA9F026706ED@googlemail.com>
 <BA6DE43B-0798-44D2-B193-07744B667702@nc0b.com>
 <CAD2JfAiF5GxMrJou=5hphYTT4RftjoVJU3YKi_aJXOXbN-PYEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1452803730476-82e68e05-47d4ee27-ffd95236@gmail.com>
 <5699E214.8040200@karlquist.com>
 <D12D7A6D-950C-4863-BEEB-F2916B31B7E6@nc0b.com>
 <1452990595789-476a7c7c-800b9e63-60c948ba@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7437D243-892F-4C86-BE35-C76EDAC89830@n1k.org>

Hi



> On Jan 16, 2016, at 7:29 PM, Nathan Johnson <jdownj at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Right now I'm mostly aligning IF stages of boat anchor rigs, not designing new
> stuff or trying to evaluate performance of newer rigs, so I think the 8660 will
> do the job until I can afford something better. I'm debating what to buy later,
> but it appears most of the older rigs with better specs and that are well-liked
> here start at $500(It "powers on") to $1000(Tested and calibrated) and can
> easily go as high as one wants to spend on newer gear. I'm sure I will wind up
> that far into the hobby... Just not yet! I appreciate all the information from
> the group, I'm learning a lot.
> Nathan KK4REY

Consider that what you have right now may be “good enough” for anything you
are likely to do with it. You only *need* to get a different gizmo when you have an
application that is beyond what you can deal with now. Yes, gear is cheaper if you 
shop for a year for that “bargain”. You can also wind up with a shed full of gear (or 
possibly three sheds …) going for each deal that comes along. 

Bob


> 
> Sent using CloudMagic Email
> [https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pi&cv=7.4.15&pv=9.1&source=email_footer_2]
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 19:32, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> I did some interpolation to compare the specs for phase noise of the 8660 the
> way it was done then to the present method. I think it is going to be something
> like -105 dBc/Hz to -110 dBc/Hz at 10 kHz offset at 14 MHz carrier frequency.
> 
> As a comparison, the 8662A is about -135 dBc/Hz and the 8642A is better than
> -150 dBc/Hz.
> Actual measurements on multiple generators in my lab. Unfortunately I have never
> used or measured an 8660.
> 
> 3335A -128 dBc/Hz
> 3336C -120 dBc/Hz
> 3325A -115 dBc/Hz (original version. Later improved by 4 pr 5 dB after the 3336C
> came out.)
> 
> As a comparison a Rigol DG4162 is -115 dBc/Hz
> All at 10 kHz offset and on the 20 meter band.
> 
> It depends what you are trying to measure. Sensitivity or noise floor, anything
> will work within the range of specified output accuracy and leakage. On the
> other hand, if you are trying to measure the dynamic range of a receiver, or its
> phase noise characteristics, you cannot do that with most generators.
> 
> Rob, NC0B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> > On Jan 16, 2016, at 3:10 AM, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"
> <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 1/14/2016 12:35 PM, Nathan Johnson wrote:
> >> What does the group think of the HP 8660? Just scored a broken one too cheap
> to
> >> pass up. I know it's not gonna be the last signal generator I buy, but for
> under
> >> $100 shipped it should be an interesting project.
> >> Nathan KK4REY
> >
> > When I worked at HP, I had the chance to discuss this product
> > with various engineers who were involved in its development.
> > It frankly wasn't one of the better products in the line.
> > It has a high broadband noise floor. The follow on
> > product, the 8662, is MUCH better. No comparison.
> >
> > Rick Karlquist N6RK
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > If this email is spam, report it to
> >
> https://support.onlymyemail.com/view/report_spam/ODExMjI6MTg0MzQzODAwNjpyb2JAbmMwYi5jb206ZGVsaXZlcmVk
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Sun Jan 17 09:59:22 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:59:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member / Z3801
Message-ID: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>

Hi guys

Dave at ArtekManuals.com here. Long time electronics 
enthusiast/tinkerer/ ham radio op.
Recently moved and am in the process of setting up my long dreamed of a 
planned electronics lab and radio shack (NR1DX).

At the heart of the lab is a HP Z3801 GPSDO to provide  an external 
10MHz frequency reference. I bought the unit about 15 years ago but it 
has been in environmentally controlled storage ever since. Serial prefix 
is 3517Axxxxx and I am running this on a +54VDC supply. Upon firing the 
Z3801 up, the first conundrum I am running into is that the unit does 
not seem to support setting the date above 12/31/2007. Sometimes during 
the survey mode it will automatically set the correct 2016 date , other 
times during the survey the date stays stuck on 1996. The unit tracks 
the satellites and mostly settles in around 1 second PPS at +/- 20ns 
with a holdover of 4 to 8us. More about the "mostly" comment in a later 
post.

On the surface the actual reported date is not a big deal for me. as 
long as the date is not critical to the GPSDO function? The engineer in 
me would like to be able to set the date correctly ......just because. 
When attempting to set the using GPS:INIT:DATE I get an E-222 error 
(data out of range).

So here are my initial questions.
1) I assume that the date thing is a firmware issue? Is there updated 
firmware out there that allows dates above 2007, 12, 31?
2) If all I care about is 10MHz accuracy, do I need to care about the date?
3) Is there a different command string I should be using?
4)Software: I am running HP SATSTAT and Z38XX on a WIN-XP/32 laptop 
...IS there something better (or different) I should be running in the 
way of FREE software? I looked at the GPSCon package and so far 
questions about support for the software and portability eventually to 
WIN-10 supported have gone unanswered (not a good sign)

Finally I am sure that the above have been addressed on older posts, but 
I gave up searching in frustration.  Is there an easy way to search the 
ENTIRE list archive. It seems that the archives must be queried one 
month at time which is REALLY TEDIOUS

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals.com

-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From xnews5 at luna.dyndns.dk  Sun Jan 17 12:10:37 2016
From: xnews5 at luna.dyndns.dk (cfo)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 17:10:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member / Z3801
References: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <n7ghud$lro$1@ger.gmane.org>

On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:59:22 -0500, Artek Manuals wrote:
> Finally I am sure that the above have been addressed on older posts, but
> I gave up searching in frustration.  Is there an easy way to search the
> ENTIRE list archive. It seems that the archives must be queried one
> month at time which is REALLY TEDIOUS
> 
> Dave NR1DX ArtekManuals.com

I use this url for searching they mirror time-nuts : 
https://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts at febo.com/info.html

I also have a Z3801 w. a 1996 date, and think i saw that you should 
manually set the date before it gets a GPS fix. Then it will remember it 
(until next reboot)

CFO


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 17 12:10:57 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 12:10:57 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member / Z3801
In-Reply-To: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <346ADDE5-7E37-4F37-B1CE-EF6F1B92793C@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 17, 2016, at 9:59 AM, Artek Manuals <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> Dave at ArtekManuals.com here. Long time electronics enthusiast/tinkerer/ ham radio op.
> Recently moved and am in the process of setting up my long dreamed of a planned electronics lab and radio shack (NR1DX).
> 
> At the heart of the lab is a HP Z3801 GPSDO to provide  an external 10MHz frequency reference. I bought the unit about 15 years ago but it has been in environmentally controlled storage ever since. Serial prefix is 3517Axxxxx and I am running this on a +54VDC supply. Upon firing the Z3801 up, the first conundrum I am running into is that the unit does not seem to support setting the date above 12/31/2007. Sometimes during the survey mode it will automatically set the correct 2016 date , other times during the survey the date stays stuck on 1996. The unit tracks the satellites and mostly settles in around 1 second PPS at +/- 20ns with a holdover of 4 to 8us. More about the "mostly" comment in a later post.
> 
> On the surface the actual reported date is not a big deal for me. as long as the date is not critical to the GPSDO function? The engineer in me would like to be able to set the date correctly ......just because. When attempting to set the using GPS:INIT:DATE I get an E-222 error (data out of range).
> 
> So here are my initial questions.
> 1) I assume that the date thing is a firmware issue? Is there updated firmware out there that allows dates above 2007, 12, 31?

The firmware issue is in the GPS module inside the 3801. The “solution” is to swap out the GPS module. 

> 2) If all I care about is 10MHz accuracy, do I need to care about the date?

No, the date in no way impacts the 10 MHz accuracy.

> 3) Is there a different command string I should be using?

You may eventually get it to take for a while. Check “GPS rollover” in the archives. There is a lot of information there on what’s going on. 

> 4)Software: I am running HP SATSTAT and Z38XX on a WIN-XP/32 laptop ...IS there something better (or different) I should be running in the way of FREE software? I looked at the GPSCon package and so far questions about support for the software and portability eventually to WIN-10 supported have gone unanswered (not a good sign)

Again, check the archives. The Z38xx software is a good way to go. It was originally written for the 3801.

> 
> Finally I am sure that the above have been addressed on older posts, but I gave up searching in frustration.  Is there an easy way to search the ENTIRE list archive. It seems that the archives must be queried one month at time which is REALLY TEDIOUS

Google will search them quite nicely. 

Bob

> 
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuals.com
> 
> -- 
> Dave
> Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From azelio.boriani at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 12:23:31 2016
From: azelio.boriani at gmail.com (Azelio Boriani)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 18:23:31 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member / Z3801
In-Reply-To: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjwOuJLzAKJfMWxmWJCPUprcL9_cGuYV85vLTmOdxrKrNpGCA@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome,
you hit the usual GPS week rollover issue, see these:
<http://www.leapsecond.com/notes/gpswnro.htm>
<https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2011-December/061725.html>
No impact on the 10MHz/PPS accuracy.
No command can correct the rollover, I seem to remember that if you
set the date before the GPS has a fix (right after a power cycle),
then the date will be correct (until the next power cycle).
There is also this software:
<http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/Z38XX.zip>

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Artek Manuals <Manuals at artekmanuals.com> wrote:
> Hi guys
>
> Dave at ArtekManuals.com here. Long time electronics enthusiast/tinkerer/
> ham radio op.
> Recently moved and am in the process of setting up my long dreamed of a
> planned electronics lab and radio shack (NR1DX).
>
> At the heart of the lab is a HP Z3801 GPSDO to provide  an external 10MHz
> frequency reference. I bought the unit about 15 years ago but it has been in
> environmentally controlled storage ever since. Serial prefix is 3517Axxxxx
> and I am running this on a +54VDC supply. Upon firing the Z3801 up, the
> first conundrum I am running into is that the unit does not seem to support
> setting the date above 12/31/2007. Sometimes during the survey mode it will
> automatically set the correct 2016 date , other times during the survey the
> date stays stuck on 1996. The unit tracks the satellites and mostly settles
> in around 1 second PPS at +/- 20ns with a holdover of 4 to 8us. More about
> the "mostly" comment in a later post.
>
> On the surface the actual reported date is not a big deal for me. as long as
> the date is not critical to the GPSDO function? The engineer in me would
> like to be able to set the date correctly ......just because. When
> attempting to set the using GPS:INIT:DATE I get an E-222 error (data out of
> range).
>
> So here are my initial questions.
> 1) I assume that the date thing is a firmware issue? Is there updated
> firmware out there that allows dates above 2007, 12, 31?
> 2) If all I care about is 10MHz accuracy, do I need to care about the date?
> 3) Is there a different command string I should be using?
> 4)Software: I am running HP SATSTAT and Z38XX on a WIN-XP/32 laptop ...IS
> there something better (or different) I should be running in the way of FREE
> software? I looked at the GPSCon package and so far questions about support
> for the software and portability eventually to WIN-10 supported have gone
> unanswered (not a good sign)
>
> Finally I am sure that the above have been addressed on older posts, but I
> gave up searching in frustration.  Is there an easy way to search the ENTIRE
> list archive. It seems that the archives must be queried one month at time
> which is REALLY TEDIOUS
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuals.com
>
> --
> Dave
> Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 13:25:55 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:25:55 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member / Z3801
In-Reply-To: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiKxKgNLA8n4T=pRGHx4kW5prCtrWXN2mFCh9U6NuV8FA@mail.gmail.com>

Dave
Welcome to the group and have always appreciated the help from Artek.
If only frequency no need to care about the date. I learned this from
fellow time nuts. Yes I also hate 1996. Now I think there are later
software releases. I haven't had my 3801 on for a bit as I discovered that
I actually have a jumping frequency issue. But If need be happy to copy the
software.
Also check KO4bbs website later eproms may be there.
I don't actually recall seeing eproms in the unit.
Up until recently my 3801 of 10-14 years just worked thats why I am unclear
about the internals.
Unfortunately seems I may be digging into it.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 9:59 AM, Artek Manuals <Manuals at artekmanuals.com>
wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> Dave at ArtekManuals.com here. Long time electronics enthusiast/tinkerer/
> ham radio op.
> Recently moved and am in the process of setting up my long dreamed of a
> planned electronics lab and radio shack (NR1DX).
>
> At the heart of the lab is a HP Z3801 GPSDO to provide  an external 10MHz
> frequency reference. I bought the unit about 15 years ago but it has been
> in environmentally controlled storage ever since. Serial prefix is
> 3517Axxxxx and I am running this on a +54VDC supply. Upon firing the Z3801
> up, the first conundrum I am running into is that the unit does not seem to
> support setting the date above 12/31/2007. Sometimes during the survey mode
> it will automatically set the correct 2016 date , other times during the
> survey the date stays stuck on 1996. The unit tracks the satellites and
> mostly settles in around 1 second PPS at +/- 20ns with a holdover of 4 to
> 8us. More about the "mostly" comment in a later post.
>
> On the surface the actual reported date is not a big deal for me. as long
> as the date is not critical to the GPSDO function? The engineer in me would
> like to be able to set the date correctly ......just because. When
> attempting to set the using GPS:INIT:DATE I get an E-222 error (data out of
> range).
>
> So here are my initial questions.
> 1) I assume that the date thing is a firmware issue? Is there updated
> firmware out there that allows dates above 2007, 12, 31?
> 2) If all I care about is 10MHz accuracy, do I need to care about the date?
> 3) Is there a different command string I should be using?
> 4)Software: I am running HP SATSTAT and Z38XX on a WIN-XP/32 laptop ...IS
> there something better (or different) I should be running in the way of
> FREE software? I looked at the GPSCon package and so far questions about
> support for the software and portability eventually to WIN-10 supported
> have gone unanswered (not a good sign)
>
> Finally I am sure that the above have been addressed on older posts, but I
> gave up searching in frustration.  Is there an easy way to search the
> ENTIRE list archive. It seems that the archives must be queried one month
> at time which is REALLY TEDIOUS
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuals.com
>
> --
> Dave
> Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Sun Jan 17 12:26:22 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 12:26:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <569BCEBE.20307@erols.com>

Talk-only mode is by intention, an exclusive mode, where
there is one talker, and one listener on the bus.  There
can be exceptions where there are more than one listener,
but that tends to be unusual.

Addressed mode can have one or more instrument on the
bus.  Although addressed mode is fully orchestrated by
the controller, the controller can easily interleave
things in a way that can cause unintended latency in a
critical instrument.

-Chuck Harris

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Poul-Henning,
>
> On 01/17/2016 12:52 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> --------
>> In message <569B61CF.3030708 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>>
>>>> This is a common misunderstanding:  Talk-only does *not* protecting you
>>>> against timing issues on GPIB.
>>>>
>>>> On RS-232, yes, but not on GPIB.
>>>
>>> Agree, to some degree. It's not a guarantee.
>>>
>>> I think you should develop that line of thought, to detail why it helps
>>> on GPIB and why not on serial.
>>
>> It's really very simple:  RS-232 sends blind, you don't even need to
>> know if there is a receiver or what it does.  If the receiver cannot
>> keep op, data is simply lost.
>>
>> GPIB handshakes every byte, so the actions of the receiving end affects
>> the transmitting end - in particular if the receiver cannot keep up.
>>

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun Jan 17 16:29:33 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:29:33 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 of "Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:38:06 +0100." <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20160117212933.5BC3D406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org said:
> OK, you where thinking about the flow-control.
> You can have RS-232 wired up to do flow-control (hardware-flow-control),
> where as flow-control is a standard property of GPIB. On the other hand,
> flow-control in itself only assures the data-transfer but not that  triggers
> is not missed in the overall system. 

GPIB is half duplex.  You have to turn the line around to tell it 
give-me-the-next-sample.  Talk-only avoids that.

In some sense, it's similar to flow control, but it's more likely to be 
implemented in software or wait for software to tell it to send data or ...

With talk-only, the OS buffer can handle many lines in case the scheduler is 
not cooperating.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From john at miles.io  Sun Jan 17 16:49:40 2016
From: john at miles.io (John Miles)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:49:40 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <00d801d15170$f91c6630$eb553290$@miles.io>

> Therefore, talk-only mode is a big advantage in terms of decoupling
> on RS-232 and makes almost no difference on GPIB.

That's not the case when it comes to counters.  By timing issues, I wasn't referring to layer-1 handshaking, but rather the interplay between the GPIB software application, the network or bus connectivity between the app and GPIB controller, the controller itself and its firmware, and an addressable counter that returns each measurement only in response to a command from the app.  The difference in performance between a talk-only connection and a two-way conversation can be substantial.  Yes, everything runs in lockstep, but the sum of the delays and latencies in each of those stages can easily exceed 0.1 second.  In Attila's case there are also VM crossings in both directions to worry about.

The counter, unlike any of the other participants in the conversation, is working on a deadline.  Everything in a counter tends to happen in the "foreground," so to speak.  If the counter takes too long to interpret and execute a GPIB command, it may fail to rearm itself in time for the next trigger.  That's never a problem in talk-only mode, at least not at rates we're concerned with here, because the counter never has to do anything but send out data.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC



From eb4apl at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 07:41:04 2016
From: eb4apl at gmail.com (EB4APL)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:41:04 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <569AE2EF.8040006@earthlink.net>
References: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
 <10074.1452967631@critter.freebsd.dk> <569AE2EF.8040006@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <569B8BE0.6070309@gmail.com>

Hi,

We are drifting from the original problem (dividing 10 MHz to 1 PPS) to 
general questions such as hardware vs software implementation, 
obsolescence of parts, program data retention and big program sizes for 
trivial tasks, all of them also interesting.

Well, returning to the main problem I just checked the original PPSDIV 
program source from TVB in order to remind me the size of the code:
360 lines of assembler text code including everything even blank lines.  
This accounts for 62 lines of text header with a detailed explanation of 
how the program works which even include the schematic drawn in 
character graphics and 302 lines of code including comments.  Pruning 
this code of comment and blank lines it leaves 182 lines of executable 
code.
This is the original PPSDIV code made for a PIC with more I/O pins that 
divides the 10 MHz input to 9 simultaneous outputs from 100 KHz to .001 
Hz, all of them synchronous.
The smaller versions made for 8 pin chips has about  97 lines of 
assembler code including everything.  This accounts for 46 lines of text 
header and 51 lines of code including comments.  Pruning this code of 
comment and blank lines it leaves 31 lines of executable code (well, 
and  a little more since I have a subroutine missing).
For personal use you can stock a couple of PICs if you are  afraid of 
their availability in case of a future failure.

Regards,
Ignacio




On 17/01/2016 a las 1:40, jimlux wrote:
> On 1/16/16 10:07 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> --------
>> In message 
>> <20160116080037.13903406057 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal 
>> Murray writes:
>>
>>> kb8tq at n1k.org said:
>>>> The astonishing part of this “new world” is that a very complex 
>>>> chip that is
>>>> made in high volume is cheaper than a handful of less popular (but 
>>>> far less
>>>> complex) chips.
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to see the die sizes.
>>
>> Die size is not really an issue until they become big enough to 
>> impact overall yield.
>>
>> And apropos:  I just used a LPC810, to do 5MHz to 1Hz for my HP5065A 
>> clock.  It almost
>> feels surreal to use a 32bit ARM CPU, even in a DIP8, for something 
>> so mundane...
>>
>
> And how many thousand lines of code (including libraries, etc. that 
> may have been pulled in)?
>
> I had just this discussion yesterday at work with someone.   These 
> days, silicon (even going into space) is much cheaper than people. 
> Sure, you could optimize a hand crafted little routine in assembler. 
> Or, you could just load up RTEMS, compile your program, link in 
> newlib, etc., and have it working in a day.  If you've got 2 MByte of 
> memory, nobody cares whether you use 1kbyte or 50kbyte.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


---
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 17 09:43:41 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:43:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <569AE2EF.8040006@earthlink.net>
References: <20160116080037.13903406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
 <10074.1452967631@critter.freebsd.dk> <569AE2EF.8040006@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <0AEDB931-BE9D-4502-8304-FD5F3EBAC50E@n1k.org>

Hi
> On Jan 16, 2016, at 7:40 PM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 1/16/16 10:07 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> --------
>> In message <20160116080037.13903406057 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murray writes:
>> 
>>> kb8tq at n1k.org said:
>>>> The astonishing part of this “new world” is that a very complex chip that is
>>>> made in high volume is cheaper than a handful of less popular (but far less
>>>> complex) chips.
>>> 
>>> It would be interesting to see the die sizes.
>> 
>> Die size is not really an issue until they become big enough to impact overall yield.
>> 
>> And apropos:  I just used a LPC810, to do 5MHz to 1Hz for my HP5065A clock.  It almost
>> feels surreal to use a 32bit ARM CPU, even in a DIP8, for something so mundane...
>> 
> 
> And how many thousand lines of code (including libraries, etc. that may have been pulled in)?
> 
> I had just this discussion yesterday at work with someone.   These days, silicon (even going into space) is much cheaper than people. Sure, you could optimize a hand crafted little routine in assembler. Or, you could just load up RTEMS, compile your program, link in newlib, etc., and have it working in a day.  If you've got 2 MByte of memory, nobody cares whether you use 1kbyte or 50kbyte.

These days, that code (thanks very much to a number of people and various market forces) is likely all *free*. Not just free as in I can “borrow” it from work. Free as in fully licensed for use at no cost. Not only is the code in that category, so is the IDE and all the programming and verification code that goes along with it. If you want to check it all out, the silicon guys (just about all of them) will give you a free (as in there is an obligation) board for your commercial project. They will sell you the same board for < $20 (not quite free) for your basement one-off project. Would I use those tools to send a gizmo to Pluto? Maybe not without some adult supervision. Are they used every day to do a wide range of things - yes indeed they are. 

Another un-mentioned issue (so far) is that my board full of logic can easily have an un-noticed bug in it. The same is true of my code. Either way, two years down the line there is a need to do something about it. In the case of the board full of logic, it’s get out the soldering iron time (and possibly ship parts back and forth time). In the case of the code based gizmo, out goes a patch. No hardware is swapped out. No soldering irons are involved. Yes, a bit of forethought about boot loaders is needed, but that’s been the way it’s been done for at least the last 20 years.  It’s also quite handy when all of a sudden (as in I just bought a new piece of gear), I need 1/2 pps or 22 1/3 Hz or some other strange output. No new PC board to lay out. Nothing to buy. Just spend a half hour shooting some new code. 

At least where I have worked, we stopped doing complex stuff with random logic a long time ago. Stuff either moved to custom ASIC’s, PLD’s (CPLD’s, FPGA’s …), or to MCU’s. That started in the 80’s and pretty much was a done deal by the mid 90’s. With > 20 years of data, it’s pretty clear that the programmable approach is at least as bug free and indeed more reliable than the random logic approach.

Bob



> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From dk4xp at arcor.de  Sun Jan 17 11:32:58 2016
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 17:32:58 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de>

Am 15.01.2016 um 10:14 schrieb Bruce Griffiths:
> For lowest jitter the gate power supply noise needs to be very low.Biasing the input at 50% supply helps somewhat but the gate threshold is never exactly 50% and the low pass filtering effect of the coupling capacitor increases the contribution of power supply noise to jitter.
> A power supply noise below 10nV/rtHz is probably required to achieve the lowest jitter. Few regulators achieve this particularly at low frequencies.
>
>
I have recently measured the noise of some regulators, LEDs and Zeners 
with partly unexpected results.
I'll do a write-up and put it on my web site, but here are 3 pictures 
that already tell a lot:

Zeners:

< 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711 at N07/24411798996/in/album-72157662535945536/ 
 >

Note the low 1/f corner of the BZX84 C2V7 and 3V3.
And 0 dB is the noise of a 60 Ohm resistor, or the INPUT referred noise 
of an AD797 or LT1028.

LEDs abused as References:

< 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711 at N07/24354944411/in/album-72157662535945536/ 
 >
The Avago HLMP-6000 is the clear winner in terms of noise. Optically, 
it's quite dim.

Regulators:

< 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711 at N07/24070698809/in/album-72157662535945536/ 
 >
The clear winner here is the LT3042. Now if they made it in an 
acceptable package!
I mounted the MSOP-10 dead bug style on unetched FR4, soldered a thick 
1mm Cu wire across
the exposed pad and put the rest of the circuit on raster board. That 
was no fun, even under the
microscope.

BTW the extra quiet reference of the LT3042 is a current source, so 
there is no
real justification for the repeated claims here that ECL must be noisy 
because of
its integrated current source.


Batteries:

I have done the writeup already:
< 
http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/NoiseMeasurementsOnChemicalBatteries.pdf 
 >

and since we are at it:  Lab supplies

< 
http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/Noise_Measurements_On_Some_Laboratory_Power_Supplies.pdf 
 >
(still incomplete, but no longer high priority for me)

regards, Gerhard



From normanlizeth at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 15:02:43 2016
From: normanlizeth at gmail.com (Lizeth Norman)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:02:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 5335a opt 40
Message-ID: <CAJUhCTPoaKvveZ_p31_OYErfFR=Hj+foRFTLY2kGeCi5NjqQWg@mail.gmail.com>

Who wants a scanned copy of the manual?

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun Jan 17 16:02:46 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:02:46 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] New Member / Z3801
In-Reply-To: Message from Artek Manuals <Manuals@ArtekManuals.com>
 of "Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:59:22 EST." <569BAC4A.8000601@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <20160117210246.E0DC4406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


Manuals at ArtekManuals.com said:
> Serial prefix  is 3517Axxxxx

Mine is 3542Axxxxx

Many years ago, I was bringing up one with the date was wrong.  It took me a 
few tries to get it to work.  I think the trick was to set the date before it 
had discovered any satellites and gotten confused by thinking the wrong date 
was correct.

> 2) If all I care about is 10MHz accuracy, do I need to care about the date?

No.


> Finally I am sure that the above have been addressed on older posts, but  I
> gave up searching in frustration.  Is there an easy way to search the
> ENTIRE list archive. It seems that the archives must be queried one  month
> at time which is REALLY TEDIOUS 

Google works well.  Add "time-nuts" or "site:febo.com" (without the quotes, but they won't hurt) to narrow the search if you get too much clutter.

week wrap is a good term.  Or maybe WNRO, Week Number RollOver


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Mon Jan 18 01:49:31 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:49:31 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <00d801d15170$f91c6630$eb553290$@miles.io>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <00d801d15170$f91c6630$eb553290$@miles.io>
Message-ID: <569C8AFB.8090408@rubidium.dyndns.org>

John,

On 01/17/2016 10:49 PM, John Miles wrote:
>> Therefore, talk-only mode is a big advantage in terms of decoupling
>> on RS-232 and makes almost no difference on GPIB.
>
> That's not the case when it comes to counters.  By timing issues, I wasn't referring to layer-1 handshaking, but rather the interplay between the GPIB software application, the network or bus connectivity between the app and GPIB controller, the controller itself and its firmware, and an addressable counter that returns each measurement only in response to a command from the app.  The difference in performance between a talk-only connection and a two-way conversation can be substantial.  Yes, everything runs in lockstep, but the sum of the delays and latencies in each of those stages can easily exceed 0.1 second.  In Attila's case there are also VM crossings in both directions to worry about.
>
> The counter, unlike any of the other participants in the conversation, is working on a deadline.  Everything in a counter tends to happen in the "foreground," so to speak.  If the counter takes too long to interpret and execute a GPIB command, it may fail to rearm itself in time for the next trigger.  That's never a problem in talk-only mode, at least not at rates we're concerned with here, because the counter never has to do anything but send out data.

It was time that we started to talk about this total picture.

Add that some GPIB interfaces uses USB-to-serial chips and then 
serial-CPU-GPIB. Many instruments uses a GPIB chip having the low-level 
logic to off-load the CPU. The SR620 for instance uses the TMS9914 GPIB 
controller chip, which does much of the hand-shaking, but does not 
offload the CPU much in regards to FIFO-buffering, which is typical of 
its age. Still, much of the lower level stuff gets the boost it needs.
The SR620 has maybe not the powerhouse processor, so that should be a 
limitation by itself. Interestingly the SR620 uses a Z80 as a IO 
processor to draw on XY scopes.

There is more handshake in the GPIB than pure flow-control, but I've not 
seen it used and honestly I haven't tried it myself. It seems like the 
support is there and documented for many instruments. Shouldn't we try 
to use that to aid the ping-pong between instruments?

Building up the system, we should think about how the system maintain 
its properties, data flow, arm-trigger mechanisms.

Cheers,
Magnus

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Jan 18 02:59:41 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 07:59:41 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <569BCEBE.20307@erols.com>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org> <569BCEBE.20307@erols.com>
Message-ID: <16844.1453103981@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <569BCEBE.20307 at erols.com>, Chuck Harris writes:

>Talk-only mode is by intention, an exclusive mode, where
>there is one talker, and one listener on the bus.

Wrong.

There can *always* be multiple listeners on GPIB, this is
why it has a three wire handshake.

The slowest listener sets the pace, individually for each byte.

>GPIB is half duplex.

Correct.

>You have to turn the line around to tell it 
>give-me-the-next-sample.

Wrong.

There is no requirement to turn the line around (= send commands)
between measurements.  EOI is only indicative, it does not require
an UNTALK+TALK sequence.

Most instruments can be commanded to measure and spew data at you
in "talk-only" fashion.

> Talk-only avoids that.

Talk-only is one way to avoid that.


As I said from the start:  Talk-Only doesn't really make that much
difference, the three-wire handshake is sufficient to cause trouble.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From artgodwin at gmail.com  Sun Jan 17 17:57:57 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 22:57:57 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <569B90A7.2090103@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B90A7.2090103@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CALiMYrsCXFy6ztAng7Ubb1O=FZxViy7kgstQ=azCvEsSYKgJAw@mail.gmail.com>

If you have RS232 connections, won't you have one for each device ? Whereas
with GPIB, you'll (probably) only have one bus. The GPIB bus will arbitrate
and avoid both instruments talking at the same time (this might not be true
in talk-only mode since there's no target address involved) but it doesn't
provide two completely separate channels.


On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Magnus Danielson <
magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Poul-Henning,
>
> On 01/17/2016 01:45 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> --------
>> In message <569B8B2E.5070604 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson
>> writes:
>>
>> I think you should develop that line of thought, to detail why it helps
>>>>> on GPIB and why not on serial.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's really very simple:  RS-232 sends blind, you don't even need to
>>>> know if there is a receiver or what it does.  If the receiver cannot
>>>> keep op, data is simply lost.
>>>>
>>>> GPIB handshakes every byte, so the actions of the receiving end affects
>>>> the transmitting end - in particular if the receiver cannot keep up.
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK, you where thinking about the flow-control.
>>>
>>> You can have RS-232 wired up to do flow-control (hardware-flow-control),
>>>
>>
>> But the important point is you don't have to do that, all you need
>> is two wires:  GND-GND and TXD->RXD
>>
>> With GPIB that option does not exist, sender and receiver are always
>> in lock-step.
>>
>> Therefore, talk-only mode is a big advantage in terms of decoupling
>> on RS-232 and makes almost no difference on GPIB.
>>
>>
> If we can assume the consumption is fast enough to keep track, yes.
> If it's not, flow control for this situation helps the border case
> somewhat, but if you are too slow, you are screwed anyway.
>
> In the case that Attila describes, the flow-control helps over the various
> borders, especially as scheduling plays tricks with us. Running virtual
> applications like that does not help to get a grip of control over how data
> is transfered and when. If it where only to get it straight into an app
> really talking to the serial ports, sure, but I do not trust the
> virtualization to handle it all to well.
>
> Not that hardware flow-control would in itself help much, but anyway.
>
> Regardless, if the TimeLab needs to send commands back to the counter over
> the virtualization border, then getting things scheduled properly in time
> isn't really guaranteed.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Jan 18 03:05:20 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 08:05:20 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Timelab, two SR620s and losing samples
In-Reply-To: <00d801d15170$f91c6630$eb553290$@miles.io>
References: <20160114153833.5f95becf705ce741ff25462c@kinali.ch>
 <5699CE86.2000106@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <005301d150a5$9c937370$d5ba5a50$@miles.io>
 <569B3B7E.6090003@rubidium.dyndns.org> <12735.1453021733@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B61CF.3030708@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13294.1453031533@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <569B8B2E.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org> <13634.1453034726@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <00d801d15170$f91c6630$eb553290$@miles.io>
Message-ID: <16895.1453104320@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <00d801d15170$f91c6630$eb553290$@miles.io>, "John Miles" writes:

>By timing issues,
>I wasn't referring to layer-1 handshaking, but rather the interplay
>between the GPIB software application, the network or bus connectivity
>between the app and GPIB controller, the controller itself and its
>firmware, and an addressable counter that returns each measurement
>only in response to a command from the app.

If your measurements are timing sensitive at or below milliseconds,
you should *always* pace them with an external trigger.  They didn't
add that input just to take up space.

If you insist on pacing via the GPIB, the protocol has a primitive
for that, TRG, which is usually hardwired to the external trigger
circuitry in quality instruments.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Jan 18 06:45:00 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:45:00 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <569BC23A.3030400 at arcor.de>, Gerhard Hoffmann writes:

>LEDs abused as References:

This is one of the most stupid ideas ever, because LEDs works both ways.

(Back when LED wrist-watches first came out, people soon discovered
that they would reset themselves when photographed with flash.)

If you insist on using LEDs as voltage references, the first thing
you need to do is to dip the LED in something which shields it 100%
from incoming light *including infrared*

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From attila at kinali.ch  Mon Jan 18 07:22:01 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:22:01 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <20160118132201.b5a3f457f9b4b556041d6385@kinali.ch>

On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 17:32:58 +0100
Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp at arcor.de> wrote:

> I have recently measured the noise of some regulators, LEDs and Zeners 
> with partly unexpected results.
> I'll do a write-up and put it on my web site, but here are 3 pictures 
> that already tell a lot:

Thanks a lot! This is some very valuable data.

If you could note also the exact circuits you used, that would help
to compare the circuits.

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Mon Jan 18 07:24:23 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:24:23 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] 5335a opt 40
In-Reply-To: <CAJUhCTPoaKvveZ_p31_OYErfFR=Hj+foRFTLY2kGeCi5NjqQWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUhCTPoaKvveZ_p31_OYErfFR=Hj+foRFTLY2kGeCi5NjqQWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160118132423.0b5fbf3f5ab599ebd25850d8@kinali.ch>

On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:02:43 -0500
Lizeth Norman <normanlizeth at gmail.com> wrote:

> Who wants a scanned copy of the manual?

I think the best would be to upload it to Didier's manual site:
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From xnews5 at luna.dyndns.dk  Mon Jan 18 08:59:36 2016
From: xnews5 at luna.dyndns.dk (cfo)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 13:59:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
Message-ID: <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org>

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:22:09 +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:

> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS
> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?  

Ulrich B. has made an AVR 1PPS, for those that uses AVR's instead of PIC's
AVR PPSDIV 2008-09-06 - in bottom of page.
http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html

The Mega8 version should be easy to port to an Arduino clone


CFO


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Jan 18 10:11:56 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 10:11:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <B75E9279-91CC-436A-9CD7-1E7D10143178@n1k.org>

Hi

Back in the 70’s I was involved in making LCD watches. The whole “photo” 
issue had not been fully through through. One day our chief marketing guy for
the project was driving around in Phoenix AZ. He looks down and notices that 
his watch is dead. Pops out a spare, puts it on, confirms it it working. Hangs his arm out
the window and …. that one is dead as well.

We changed the die coat on the ASIC to an opaque version soon after that …

Light does indeed interact with semiconductors. It happens even on circuits that
you would not *think* are photo sensitive. Physics is nasty that way ….

Bob

> On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <569BC23A.3030400 at arcor.de>, Gerhard Hoffmann writes:
> 
>> LEDs abused as References:
> 
> This is one of the most stupid ideas ever, because LEDs works both ways.
> 
> (Back when LED wrist-watches first came out, people soon discovered
> that they would reset themselves when photographed with flash.)
> 
> If you insist on using LEDs as voltage references, the first thing
> you need to do is to dip the LED in something which shields it 100%
> from incoming light *including infrared*
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From normanlizeth at gmail.com  Mon Jan 18 12:09:12 2016
From: normanlizeth at gmail.com (Lizeth Norman)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 12:09:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 5335a opt 40
In-Reply-To: <20160118132423.0b5fbf3f5ab599ebd25850d8@kinali.ch>
References: <CAJUhCTPoaKvveZ_p31_OYErfFR=Hj+foRFTLY2kGeCi5NjqQWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160118132423.0b5fbf3f5ab599ebd25850d8@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <CAJUhCTP7WoXjAy=Wr3URu3Ns+h4=+yJzJCRkSOpW0mLzjYpaCg@mail.gmail.com>

Hosting manuals is a non starter. Past history says it's easy to have
an individual steal this sort of thing for fun and profit, or just
remove the credit.

This is free. As in air.

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:02:43 -0500
> Lizeth Norman <normanlizeth at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Who wants a scanned copy of the manual?
>
> I think the best would be to upload it to Didier's manual site:
> http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
>
>                         Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>                  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From artgodwin at gmail.com  Mon Jan 18 12:05:17 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 17:05:17 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <B75E9279-91CC-436A-9CD7-1E7D10143178@n1k.org>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <B75E9279-91CC-436A-9CD7-1E7D10143178@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CALiMYrvDPGT4Qo=e1c4YWwFFa8RZmZbxxYrd1B2puyX134v+bw@mail.gmail.com>

You might have come across the Raspberry Pi story : one of the revised
versions had a SMPS control chip that was intended to be buried inside a
phone, not exposed on an open pcb.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=99042


On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Back in the 70’s I was involved in making LCD watches. The whole “photo”
> issue had not been fully through through. One day our chief marketing guy
> for
> the project was driving around in Phoenix AZ. He looks down and notices
> that
> his watch is dead. Pops out a spare, puts it on, confirms it it working.
> Hangs his arm out
> the window and …. that one is dead as well.
>
> We changed the die coat on the ASIC to an opaque version soon after that …
>
> Light does indeed interact with semiconductors. It happens even on
> circuits that
> you would not *think* are photo sensitive. Physics is nasty that way ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
> wrote:
> >
> > --------
> > In message <569BC23A.3030400 at arcor.de>, Gerhard Hoffmann writes:
> >
> >> LEDs abused as References:
> >
> > This is one of the most stupid ideas ever, because LEDs works both ways.
> >
> > (Back when LED wrist-watches first came out, people soon discovered
> > that they would reset themselves when photographed with flash.)
> >
> > If you insist on using LEDs as voltage references, the first thing
> > you need to do is to dip the LED in something which shields it 100%
> > from incoming light *including infrared*
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From time at patoka.org  Mon Jan 18 12:28:59 2016
From: time at patoka.org (Vlad)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 12:28:59 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>


Looking to the complex solutions for the frequency divider (CPLD/MCU), I 
start to think about skews and propagation delays. Its not obvious from 
the first glance. But I think such things exists.
It could be interesting to compare the numbers.  Is it worth to consider 
some correction to avoid phase difference between of input and output ?


On 2016-01-18 08:59, cfo wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:22:09 +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
> 
>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 
>> PPS
>> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?
> 
> Ulrich B. has made an AVR 1PPS, for those that uses AVR's instead of 
> PIC's
> AVR PPSDIV 2008-09-06 - in bottom of page.
> http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html
> 
> The Mega8 version should be easy to port to an Arduino clone
> 
> 
> CFO
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

-- 
WBW,

V.P.

From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Mon Jan 18 13:33:10 2016
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:33:10 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <B75E9279-91CC-436A-9CD7-1E7D10143178@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <2F26152104D546138C8350E5D3B7E70B@gnat>

Indeed Bob in the 70s I built a failure diagnostic equipment to record the 
Idd of a chip as a function of a position of a spot of light scanning the 
surface. The intensity was very low and not optimum wavelength.......it was 
a scope raster demagnified by using a microscope camera accessory backwards. 
The intensity was modulated and the signal detected on a PSD and displayed 
on a modified Robot SSTV receiver.....but it showed just how senstive chips 
are to light.

Alan
G3NYK

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Camp" <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source


> Hi
>
> Back in the 70’s I was involved in making LCD watches. The whole “photo”
> issue had not been fully through through. One day our chief marketing guy 
> for
> the project was driving around in Phoenix AZ. He looks down and notices 
> that
> his watch is dead. Pops out a spare, puts it on, confirms it it working. 
> Hangs his arm out
> the window and …. that one is dead as well.
>
> We changed the die coat on the ASIC to an opaque version soon after that …
>
> Light does indeed interact with semiconductors. It happens even on 
> circuits that
> you would not *think* are photo sensitive. Physics is nasty that way ….
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> --------
>> In message <569BC23A.3030400 at arcor.de>, Gerhard Hoffmann writes:
>>
>>> LEDs abused as References:
>>
>> This is one of the most stupid ideas ever, because LEDs works both ways.
>>
>> (Back when LED wrist-watches first came out, people soon discovered
>> that they would reset themselves when photographed with flash.)
>>
>> If you insist on using LEDs as voltage references, the first thing
>> you need to do is to dip the LED in something which shields it 100%
>> from incoming light *including infrared*
>>
>> -- 
>> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by 
>> incompetence.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there. 


From lists at philpem.me.uk  Mon Jan 18 13:53:09 2016
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:53:09 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] LAST CALL for Symmetricom 58532A antennas
In-Reply-To: <5B1D7275-998B-402F-8D9B-F7D3C2B9C2A9@icloud.com>
References: <5B1D7275-998B-402F-8D9B-F7D3C2B9C2A9@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <569D3495.4080705@philpem.me.uk>

On 15/01/16 18:41, Gregory Beat wrote:
> David Zoldan contacted me this morning to inform me that their inventory of Symmetricom 58532A antennas is quickly disappearing.  He thanked the time-nuts group for their previous purchases in 2015.
> 
> IF you Contact David, at Launch3, and he said that Launch3 will sell remaining inventory to time-nuts members for $25 each + shipping -- while their supplies last.

As an FYI, I've just had a $110 shipping quote from them for ONE antenna
shipped to the UK... Ouch!

I suspect they're much cheaper to ship inside the continental US.

Which is a shame, because I could do with a decent antenna for the GPSDO
I'm putting together...

Cheers,
-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Jan 18 14:34:56 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:34:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org> <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
Message-ID: <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>

Hi

The same issue come into random logic. The most common chip logic way to do this is with rippling 
divide by 10’s.  Been there / done that.. The output pulse in that case is delayed  by quite a bit. Put
a “sync” flip flop on the output and the (obvious) question is — do you know the delay is << 100 ns?
When it’s not, you start doing full up programmable dividers …. you then have a Fmax question. 

The nice thing about a FPGA (or CPLD) is that they come with a cute timing analyzer. You can indeed
answer questions like this with a quite high level of confidence. That *assumes* that you bother to set
up the timing analyzer :) 

With an MCU, you have pretty good information on the output delay. The ambiguity comes on the clock
input. It’s rare to see that fully documented. You are then back to a “measure it and see” situation. You 
probably could guess that the input delay and output delays relate to the clock delay. 

Regardless of the divider it’s self, you will have the sine to square conversion. You also
may have a sensitivity on a square back to sine conversion. All of it (and the divider) will have both temperature
and voltage sensitivity. Most of that will be in the “measure it and see” category.  

Based on measurements, all of it comes out in the “no big deal” range for normal applications. 

Bob




> On Jan 18, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Vlad <time at patoka.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Looking to the complex solutions for the frequency divider (CPLD/MCU), I start to think about skews and propagation delays. Its not obvious from the first glance. But I think such things exists.
> It could be interesting to compare the numbers.  Is it worth to consider some correction to avoid phase difference between of input and output ?
> 
> 
> On 2016-01-18 08:59, cfo wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:22:09 +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS
>>> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?
>> Ulrich B. has made an AVR 1PPS, for those that uses AVR's instead of PIC's
>> AVR PPSDIV 2008-09-06 - in bottom of page.
>> http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html
>> The Mega8 version should be easy to port to an Arduino clone
>> CFO
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> -- 
> WBW,
> 
> V.P.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Mon Jan 18 14:54:54 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:54:54 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r@linux>

On Monday, January 18, 2016 11:45:00 AM Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> 
> In message <569BC23A.3030400 at arcor.de>, Gerhard Hoffmann writes:
> >LEDs abused as References:
> This is one of the most stupid ideas ever, because LEDs works both ways.
> 
> (Back when LED wrist-watches first came out, people soon discovered
> that they would reset themselves when photographed with flash.)
> 
> If you insist on using LEDs as voltage references, the first thing
> you need to do is to dip the LED in something which shields it 100%
> from incoming light *including infrared*
Actually when forward biased they are not that sensitive.
I used a string of forward biased LEDS to set the voltage of a node in an 
amplifier. To detect 100Hz modulation due to photocurrents in the LEDs the 150W 
incandescent bulb had to be placed within a few cm of the LEDs.
Using a little bit of opaque pain or epoxy is a small price to pay. 
Photosensitivity is also an issue with glass encapsulated low leakage diodes 
if you scratch  the paint.
Even glass encapsulated reference (and other) zeners are photosensitive.
For sensitive measurements a light tight enclosure is often used.



Bruce

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Jan 18 15:45:20 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 20:45:20 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r@linux>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r@linux>
Message-ID: <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r at linux>, Bruce Griffiths writes:

>To detect 100Hz modulation due to photocurrents in the LEDs the 150W 
>incandescent bulb had to be placed within a few cm of the LEDs.

Incandescent bulbs don't have much "hum" in their light output,
they're basically heating elements and they don't cool down nearly
fast enough.

Try with fluorescent light instead, there's a reason people accuse
them of flickering.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Mon Jan 18 17:26:00 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 23:26:00 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <B75E9279-91CC-436A-9CD7-1E7D10143178@n1k.org>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <B75E9279-91CC-436A-9CD7-1E7D10143178@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <569D6678.101@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

No, the black plastic around ICs isn't black by chance.
Einstein got his Nobel price on the photoelectric effect, which is 
relevant in this case.

A few years ago I assisted in modifying a camera for an amateur 
astronomer. Among the modifications, one was to turn of power for a 
pre-amplifier, as the biased amplifier was also emitting a faint 
infrared light that the sensor picked up and accumulated causing a 
redish gradient over the whole screen - mathcing the radiation pattern 
from the on-chip amplifier. By only powering on the amplifier before 
read-out significantly reduced the effect to essentially zero.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/18/2016 04:11 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> Back in the 70’s I was involved in making LCD watches. The whole “photo”
> issue had not been fully through through. One day our chief marketing guy for
> the project was driving around in Phoenix AZ. He looks down and notices that
> his watch is dead. Pops out a spare, puts it on, confirms it it working. Hangs his arm out
> the window and …. that one is dead as well.
>
> We changed the die coat on the ASIC to an opaque version soon after that …
>
> Light does indeed interact with semiconductors. It happens even on circuits that
> you would not *think* are photo sensitive. Physics is nasty that way ….
>
> Bob
>
>> On Jan 18, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>
>> --------
>> In message <569BC23A.3030400 at arcor.de>, Gerhard Hoffmann writes:
>>
>>> LEDs abused as References:
>>
>> This is one of the most stupid ideas ever, because LEDs works both ways.
>>
>> (Back when LED wrist-watches first came out, people soon discovered
>> that they would reset themselves when photographed with flash.)
>>
>> If you insist on using LEDs as voltage references, the first thing
>> you need to do is to dip the LED in something which shields it 100%
>> from incoming light *including infrared*
>>
>> --
>> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Jan 18 17:26:38 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:26:38 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] 5335a opt 40
In-Reply-To: <CAJUhCTP7WoXjAy=Wr3URu3Ns+h4=+yJzJCRkSOpW0mLzjYpaCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUhCTPoaKvveZ_p31_OYErfFR=Hj+foRFTLY2kGeCi5NjqQWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160118132423.0b5fbf3f5ab599ebd25850d8@kinali.ch>
 <CAJUhCTP7WoXjAy=Wr3URu3Ns+h4=+yJzJCRkSOpW0mLzjYpaCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8fasEcrKtaYUt47VbyDHon5S9q4n9p=L-gXRfV_SwkMA@mail.gmail.com>

No need to upload on,. Didier has a very nice scan set, low and high res,
proms, even sales lit.

-pete

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Lizeth Norman <normanlizeth at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hosting manuals is a non starter. Past history says it's easy to have
> an individual steal this sort of thing for fun and profit, or just
> remove the credit.
>
> This is free. As in air.
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> > On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:02:43 -0500
> > Lizeth Norman <normanlizeth at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Who wants a scanned copy of the manual?
> >
> > I think the best would be to upload it to Didier's manual site:
> > http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
> >
> >                         Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> >                  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Jan 18 19:19:38 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 19:19:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r@linux> <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <2CD1C8C1-E512-4FFC-B3C1-52630496801D@n1k.org>

Hi

Some time - check out what a “60 Hz” incandescent bulb looks like when 
hooked to 20 Hz …. flicker flicker flicker …

I suspect they optimize the thermal mass of the filament to reduce the flicker at
50/60 Hz.

Bob

> On Jan 18, 2016, at 3:45 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r at linux>, Bruce Griffiths writes:
> 
>> To detect 100Hz modulation due to photocurrents in the LEDs the 150W 
>> incandescent bulb had to be placed within a few cm of the LEDs.
> 
> Incandescent bulbs don't have much "hum" in their light output,
> they're basically heating elements and they don't cool down nearly
> fast enough.
> 
> Try with fluorescent light instead, there's a reason people accuse
> them of flickering.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From garygarlic at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 19 11:48:15 2016
From: garygarlic at earthlink.net (Gary Woods)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:48:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r@linux> <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <h3qs9btdvomcdbcpaq9ecbve1d9l5pj7j6@4ax.com>

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 20:45:20 +0000, you wrote:

>Incandescent bulbs don't have much "hum" in their light output,
>they're basically heating elements and they don't cool down nearly
>fast enough.

Hook photocell to an audio amp and shine a 60Hz powered lamp on it; you'll
be surprised.  I don't know what the modulation percentage is, but I know a
flashlight lamp can be modulated with decent sounding speech audio.

-- 
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Tue Jan 19 12:57:53 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:57:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LAST CALL for Symmetricom 58532A antennas
In-Reply-To: <569D3495.4080705@philpem.me.uk>
References: <5B1D7275-998B-402F-8D9B-F7D3C2B9C2A9@icloud.com>
 <569D3495.4080705@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <569E7921.7040606@ArtekManuals.com>

Since I have been out of this loop for many years

What is the "advantage" of one of these antennas over a common turnstile 
with a short feed line

If I were to buy where do I order? I have no clue who David Zolden is or 
how to contact him?

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuaLs.COM



On 1/18/2016 1:53 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> On 15/01/16 18:41, Gregory Beat wrote:
>> David Zoldan contacted me this morning to inform me that their inventory of Symmetricom 58532A antennas is quickly disappearing.  He thanked the time-nuts group for their previous purchases in 2015.
>>
>> IF you Contact David, at Launch3, and he said that Launch3 will sell remaining inventory to time-nuts members for $25 each + shipping -- while their supplies last.
> As an FYI, I've just had a $110 shipping quote from them for ONE antenna
> shipped to the UK... Ouch!
>
> I suspect they're much cheaper to ship inside the continental US.
>
> Which is a shame, because I could do with a decent antenna for the GPSDO
> I'm putting together...
>
> Cheers,


-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue Jan 19 12:55:16 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:55:16 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r@linux> <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <2483720.DgQZs1kRH7@linux>

On Monday, January 18, 2016 08:45:20 PM you wrote:
> --------
> 
> In message <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r at linux>, Bruce Griffiths writes:
> >To detect 100Hz modulation due to photocurrents in the LEDs the 
150W
> >incandescent bulb had to be placed within a few cm of the LEDs.
> 
> Incandescent bulbs don't have much "hum" in their light output,
> they're basically heating elements and they don't cool down nearly
> fast enough.
> 
> Try with fluorescent light instead, there's a reason people accuse
> them of flickering.
Its actually quite difficult to find low frequency operated fluorescent lamps 
here. I only have a small 6" one (sans phosphor so strictly not fluorescent) 
I assembled some years ago as a source of the mercury green line for an 
interferometer. I'll unearth it and setup an experiment using forward 
biased LEDs. 


In any case obtaining an LED photocurrent of more than few microamp is 
very difficult. With a forward current of a few mA the resultant change in 
LED voltage will only be a few uV.


Shielding the LED to  ensure that such photocurrent induced modulation 
of the forward voltage drop is at the subnanovolt level is relatively simple.


I used to test the suitability of photomultiplier housings by checking for 
light leaks with a 1 KW incandescent lamp using the photomultiplier as the 
light detector. Labyrinth seals with nested enclosures with everything 
painted matte black usually sufficed.


Biggest problem was light leakage via the BNC/MHV connectors.


Bruce




From jimlux at earthlink.net  Tue Jan 19 13:14:40 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 10:14:40 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <2CD1C8C1-E512-4FFC-B3C1-52630496801D@n1k.org>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de> <43677.1453117500@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <29659871.S9XTlaFu4r@linux> <819.1453149920@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <2CD1C8C1-E512-4FFC-B3C1-52630496801D@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <569E7D10.4030502@earthlink.net>

On 1/18/16 4:19 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> Some time - check out what a “60 Hz” incandescent bulb looks like when
> hooked to 20 Hz …. flicker flicker flicker …
>
> I suspect they optimize the thermal mass of the filament to reduce the flicker at
> 50/60 Hz.

They optimize that to a tiny fraction of a gnat's eylash.  Mass 
production, every microcent counts.


From lmcdavid at lmceng.com  Mon Jan 18 19:29:33 2016
From: lmcdavid at lmceng.com (Larry McDavid)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2016 16:29:33 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] LAST CALL for Symmetricom 58532A antennas
Message-ID: <qyj0pb66gl5wyed3dmdde23c.1453163373315@email.android.com>


    
I bought two and the shipping was $12 within the US.


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S5

-------- Original message --------
From: Philip Pemberton <lists at philpem.me.uk> 
Date: 01/18/2016  10:53 AM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LAST CALL for Symmetricom 58532A antennas 

On 15/01/16 18:41, Gregory Beat wrote:
> David Zoldan contacted me this morning to inform me that their inventory of Symmetricom 58532A antennas is quickly disappearing.  He thanked the time-nuts group for their previous purchases in 2015.
> 
> IF you Contact David, at Launch3, and he said that Launch3 will sell remaining inventory to time-nuts members for $25 each + shipping -- while their supplies last.

As an FYI, I've just had a $110 shipping quote from them for ONE antenna
shipped to the UK... Ouch!

I suspect they're much cheaper to ship inside the continental US.

Which is a shame, because I could do with a decent antenna for the GPSDO
I'm putting together...

Cheers,
-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue Jan 19 14:00:30 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:00:30 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] May have asked before - any one have a dead 5061 Cs
 tube you don't want ?
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8O1MLAz=gP1rKfTfCFPMLHFbQpF4XXy75QPEC1FDQd6w@mail.gmail.com>

Dead as in out of Cs, but not damaged.

-pete

From time at patoka.org  Tue Jan 19 15:37:13 2016
From: time at patoka.org (Vlad)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:37:13 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <88a62f1b12f6ace437a0ced41912e2b6@www.patoka.ca>



> The nice thing about a FPGA (or CPLD) is that they come with a cute
> timing analyzer. You can indeed
> answer questions like this with a quite high level of confidence. That
> *assumes* that you bother to set
> up the timing analyzer :)

That true. Its nice looking "Timeng report". I saw the numbers there.

Performance Summary for Xilinx XC32C32A:

Min. Clock Period 3.300 ns.
Max. Clock Frequency (fSYSTEM) 303.030 MHz.

Clock to Setup (tCYC) 3.300 ns.
Clock Pad to Output Pad Delay (tCO) 3.700 ns.

Its always few nanoseconds delays. Which quite sad, since I was expect 
better from CPLD. With this "background", PICDIV looks much more 
attractive with its 2ps Jitter.
Long live for Tom and Microchip engineers !

D flip-flop looks like a good solution. However, now I am thinking it 
could do its own "timing correction" (skew/delay) to the signal. Looks 
like "classic" 74LS74 has similar delays as CPLD has.
Nothing is perfect. ;-)

> Regardless of the divider it’s self, you will have the sine to
> square conversion. You also
> may have a sensitivity on a square back to sine conversion. All of it
> (and the divider) will have both temperature
> and voltage sensitivity. Most of that will be in the “measure it and
> see” category.

I was using Wenzel "two 3906" solution. BTW, when I compare it to 
"74AC", I saw more spikes with it:

http://www.patoka.ca/OCXO/Vectron-74AC04b-2-OSQ.png
http://www.patoka.ca/OCXO/Vectron-74AC04-2-OSQ.png

Which make me thinking that 74AC/74HC logic make the conversion more 
"smooth". However, in my observations, I saw that "two 3906" is close to 
reflect the actual signal coming from OCXO. I mean if OCXO has some 
spike (noise), than it immediately will be noticed by "two 3906" schema. 
74AC/74HC solution somehow remove/ignore it. I don't know how to explain 
this. Its just from my setup and my observation and probably not correct 
at all.


> 
> Based on measurements, all of it comes out in the “no big deal”
> range for normal applications.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 18, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Vlad <time at patoka.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Looking to the complex solutions for the frequency divider (CPLD/MCU), 
>> I start to think about skews and propagation delays. Its not obvious 
>> from the first glance. But I think such things exists.
>> It could be interesting to compare the numbers.  Is it worth to 
>> consider some correction to avoid phase difference between of input 
>> and output ?
>> 
>> 
>> On 2016-01-18 08:59, cfo wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:22:09 +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 
>>>> PPS
>>>> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?
>>> Ulrich B. has made an AVR 1PPS, for those that uses AVR's instead of 
>>> PIC's
>>> AVR PPSDIV 2008-09-06 - in bottom of page.
>>> http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html
>>> The Mega8 version should be easy to port to an Arduino clone
>>> CFO
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> --
>> WBW,
>> 
>> V.P.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.

-- 
WBW,

V.P.

From dhooke at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 17:21:18 2016
From: dhooke at gmail.com (davidh)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:21:18 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
Message-ID: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hi All,

While still appearing to function normally, my PRS10 started to smell: 
C900 in the lamp assembly has self destructed.

The SRS parts manual merely says "Capacitor, Tantalum, 35V, 20%, Rad", 
so I'd appreciate any advice on what additional parameters I should be 
looking at in selecting a replacement.

Thanks,

david


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue Jan 19 17:39:59 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 11:39:59 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <88a62f1b12f6ace437a0ced41912e2b6@www.patoka.ca>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <88a62f1b12f6ace437a0ced41912e2b6@www.patoka.ca>
Message-ID: <1709496.8LP7WnSq7d@linux>

The clock to output delay of the PIC will be similar or perhaps a little 
worse.
You seem to be confusing delay and jitter.
There are zero delay buffers (in the sense that the output transitions are 
aligned with the clock transitions) but these have excessive jitter due to the 
internal DLL used to achieve 'zero delay'.

Bruce
 
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 03:37:13 PM Vlad wrote:
> > The nice thing about a FPGA (or CPLD) is that they come with a cute
> > timing analyzer. You can indeed
> > answer questions like this with a quite high level of confidence. That
> > *assumes* that you bother to set
> > up the timing analyzer :)
> 
> That true. Its nice looking "Timeng report". I saw the numbers there.
> 
> Performance Summary for Xilinx XC32C32A:
> 
> Min. Clock Period 3.300 ns.
> Max. Clock Frequency (fSYSTEM) 303.030 MHz.
> 
> Clock to Setup (tCYC) 3.300 ns.
> Clock Pad to Output Pad Delay (tCO) 3.700 ns.
> 
> Its always few nanoseconds delays. Which quite sad, since I was expect
> better from CPLD. With this "background", PICDIV looks much more
> attractive with its 2ps Jitter.
> Long live for Tom and Microchip engineers !
> 
> D flip-flop looks like a good solution. However, now I am thinking it
> could do its own "timing correction" (skew/delay) to the signal. Looks
> like "classic" 74LS74 has similar delays as CPLD has.
> Nothing is perfect. ;-)
> 
> > Regardless of the divider it’s self, you will have the sine to
> > square conversion. You also
> > may have a sensitivity on a square back to sine conversion. All of it
> > (and the divider) will have both temperature
> > and voltage sensitivity. Most of that will be in the “measure it and
> > see” category.
> 
> I was using Wenzel "two 3906" solution. BTW, when I compare it to
> "74AC", I saw more spikes with it:
> 
> http://www.patoka.ca/OCXO/Vectron-74AC04b-2-OSQ.png
> http://www.patoka.ca/OCXO/Vectron-74AC04-2-OSQ.png
> 
> Which make me thinking that 74AC/74HC logic make the conversion more
> "smooth". However, in my observations, I saw that "two 3906" is close to
> reflect the actual signal coming from OCXO. I mean if OCXO has some
> spike (noise), than it immediately will be noticed by "two 3906" schema.
> 74AC/74HC solution somehow remove/ignore it. I don't know how to explain
> this. Its just from my setup and my observation and probably not correct
> at all.
> 
> > Based on measurements, all of it comes out in the “no big deal”
> > range for normal applications.
> > 
> > Bob
> > 
> >> On Jan 18, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Vlad <time at patoka.org> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Looking to the complex solutions for the frequency divider (CPLD/MCU),
> >> I start to think about skews and propagation delays. Its not obvious
> >> from the first glance. But I think such things exists.
> >> It could be interesting to compare the numbers.  Is it worth to
> >> consider some correction to avoid phase difference between of input
> >> and output ?
> >> 
> >> On 2016-01-18 08:59, cfo wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:22:09 +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
> >>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1
> >>>> PPS
> >>>> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?
> >>> 
> >>> Ulrich B. has made an AVR 1PPS, for those that uses AVR's instead of
> >>> PIC's
> >>> AVR PPSDIV 2008-09-06 - in bottom of page.
> >>> http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html
> >>> The Mega8 version should be easy to port to an Arduino clone
> >>> CFO
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >> 
> >> --
> >> WBW,
> >> 
> >> V.P.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Jan 19 17:58:24 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:58:24 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <88a62f1b12f6ace437a0ced41912e2b6@www.patoka.ca>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org> <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <88a62f1b12f6ace437a0ced41912e2b6@www.patoka.ca>
Message-ID: <A671179D-03BF-4AB4-8E4C-21FC2C69EDE2@n1k.org>

Hi

If you fire up the FPGA and measure it, you will find a sub picosecond jitter on a signal passing through it. 
If you use the internal PLL or DLL in an FPGA, you might indeed see close to 1x10^-12 ADEV in some cases.
In general you should be able to get into the parts in the 10^-13 range even with an internal FPGA PLL.

Delay wise, you have the advantage on the FPGA that the “internal” gates are running 100’s of ps delay wise
rather than a couple of ns delay. You still have i/o delay and routing delay to deal with. As mentioned in another 
post, delay is very much not the same thing as jitter. 

Bob


> On Jan 19, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Vlad <time at patoka.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> The nice thing about a FPGA (or CPLD) is that they come with a cute
>> timing analyzer. You can indeed
>> answer questions like this with a quite high level of confidence. That
>> *assumes* that you bother to set
>> up the timing analyzer :)
> 
> That true. Its nice looking "Timeng report". I saw the numbers there.
> 
> Performance Summary for Xilinx XC32C32A:
> 
> Min. Clock Period 3.300 ns.
> Max. Clock Frequency (fSYSTEM) 303.030 MHz.
> 
> Clock to Setup (tCYC) 3.300 ns.
> Clock Pad to Output Pad Delay (tCO) 3.700 ns.
> 
> Its always few nanoseconds delays. Which quite sad, since I was expect better from CPLD. With this "background", PICDIV looks much more attractive with its 2ps Jitter.
> Long live for Tom and Microchip engineers !
> 
> D flip-flop looks like a good solution. However, now I am thinking it could do its own "timing correction" (skew/delay) to the signal. Looks like "classic" 74LS74 has similar delays as CPLD has.
> Nothing is perfect. ;-)
> 
>> Regardless of the divider it’s self, you will have the sine to
>> square conversion. You also
>> may have a sensitivity on a square back to sine conversion. All of it
>> (and the divider) will have both temperature
>> and voltage sensitivity. Most of that will be in the “measure it and
>> see” category.
> 
> I was using Wenzel "two 3906" solution. BTW, when I compare it to "74AC", I saw more spikes with it:
> 
> http://www.patoka.ca/OCXO/Vectron-74AC04b-2-OSQ.png
> http://www.patoka.ca/OCXO/Vectron-74AC04-2-OSQ.png
> 
> Which make me thinking that 74AC/74HC logic make the conversion more "smooth". However, in my observations, I saw that "two 3906" is close to reflect the actual signal coming from OCXO. I mean if OCXO has some spike (noise), than it immediately will be noticed by "two 3906" schema. 74AC/74HC solution somehow remove/ignore it. I don't know how to explain this. Its just from my setup and my observation and probably not correct at all.
> 
> 
>> Based on measurements, all of it comes out in the “no big deal”
>> range for normal applications.
>> Bob
>>> On Jan 18, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Vlad <time at patoka.org> wrote:
>>> Looking to the complex solutions for the frequency divider (CPLD/MCU), I start to think about skews and propagation delays. Its not obvious from the first glance. But I think such things exists.
>>> It could be interesting to compare the numbers.  Is it worth to consider some correction to avoid phase difference between of input and output ?
>>> On 2016-01-18 08:59, cfo wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:22:09 +0000, Jerome Blaha wrote:
>>>>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1 PPS
>>>>> from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and repeatability?
>>>> Ulrich B. has made an AVR 1PPS, for those that uses AVR's instead of PIC's
>>>> AVR PPSDIV 2008-09-06 - in bottom of page.
>>>> http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html
>>>> The Mega8 version should be easy to port to an Arduino clone
>>>> CFO
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> --
>>> WBW,
>>> V.P.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> -- 
> WBW,
> 
> V.P.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Jan 19 21:06:49 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:06:49 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LAST CALL for Symmetricom 58532A antennas
In-Reply-To: <569E7921.7040606@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <5B1D7275-998B-402F-8D9B-F7D3C2B9C2A9@icloud.com>
 <569D3495.4080705@philpem.me.uk> <569E7921.7040606@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <86DC7D1C-21FD-46A7-B111-E42309D17ABA@n1k.org>

Hi


Ok…at least part of the answers:

> On Jan 19, 2016, at 12:57 PM, Artek Manuals <manuals at artekmanuals.com> wrote:
> 
> Since I have been out of this loop for many years
> 
> What is the "advantage" of one of these antennas over a common turnstile with a short feed line


1) They have the antenna end LNA that a modern receiver expects to see at the antenna.
2) They have at least some filtering to protect against out of band signals 
3) They are shaped so birds are less likely to nest on them
4) They are small enough that they don’t stand out much
5) They are reasonably weatherproof as well as standing up to temperature and UV
6) Their directional pattern is somewhat better than a turnstile for GPS

Bob


> 
> If I were to buy where do I order? I have no clue who David Zolden is or how to contact him?
> 
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuaLs.COM
> 
> 
> 
> On 1/18/2016 1:53 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>> On 15/01/16 18:41, Gregory Beat wrote:
>>> David Zoldan contacted me this morning to inform me that their inventory of Symmetricom 58532A antennas is quickly disappearing.  He thanked the time-nuts group for their previous purchases in 2015.
>>> 
>>> IF you Contact David, at Launch3, and he said that Launch3 will sell remaining inventory to time-nuts members for $25 each + shipping -- while their supplies last.
>> As an FYI, I've just had a $110 shipping quote from them for ONE antenna
>> shipped to the UK... Ouch!
>> 
>> I suspect they're much cheaper to ship inside the continental US.
>> 
>> Which is a shame, because I could do with a decent antenna for the GPSDO
>> I'm putting together...
>> 
>> Cheers,
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dave
> Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From ke9h.graham at gmail.com  Tue Jan 19 21:44:15 2016
From: ke9h.graham at gmail.com (Graham / KE9H)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:44:15 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPyJ-YVUK1P0sDt-t=wR8K+AURc5K9=8zyOOU0gGfZxq=rrTLw@mail.gmail.com>

You will need to know the capacitance value.  Usually expressed in uF
(micro Farad).
Then some idea of the physical size, so the replacement will fit in the
current space.
--- Graham

==

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 4:21 PM, davidh <dhooke at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> While still appearing to function normally, my PRS10 started to smell:
> C900 in the lamp assembly has self destructed.
>
> The SRS parts manual merely says "Capacitor, Tantalum, 35V, 20%, Rad", so
> I'd appreciate any advice on what additional parameters I should be looking
> at in selecting a replacement.
>
> Thanks,
>
> david
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From vilgotch at bigpond.net.au  Tue Jan 19 21:48:33 2016
From: vilgotch at bigpond.net.au (Morris Odell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 13:48:33 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
Message-ID: <D7EBCAC853A649F992BFDB22874360F7@LGLaptop>

Hi all,

I recently was fortunate enough to obtain one of these amazing instruments 
but regrettable no copy of the main operating manual. I find myself a bit 
puzzled by some of it's behaviour.

The unit is clean and passes all the self-tests. When I first got it it 
seemed to work very nicely looking at my in-house 10 MHz frequency standard 
which is a Z3815 GPSDO. It needed a new memory back up battery and once I 
replaced it I tried to do the input sensitivity recalibration procedure 
that's required. That procedure  requires the application of a 10 KHz 60 mv 
p-p sine wave and that's when I ran into trouble.

I have found that if I and try to look at low frequency signals with the 
5372A they appear to have enormous levels of variation and appear quite 
erratic. The histogram display just shows peaks all over the place. I have 
tried with 10 KHz from a 3325B and 100 KHz from a 8656B both of which use 
the GPSDO as a reference and they both show enormous variation. It's the 
same whether I use the GPSDO as a ref for the 5372A or it's own internal 
ref.  If I apply 10 MHz and above from either of the two generators all 
looks well but there are occasional glitches. Using the A or B inputs or 
swapping input pods makes no difference. With VHF and UHF frequencies up to 
the 990 MHz limit of the 8656B it seems to work perfectly using the C 
channel of the 5372B.

I thought it might have been something to do with the synthesized nature of 
the 3325 and 8656 so I warmed up the old faithful 200CD at 10 KHz and it 
didn't make any difference although the 200CD would never be as stable as a 
more modern synthesized source locked to the GPS. I haven't tried it yet 
with anything higher in frequency although I do have a 2 GHz non-synthesized 
generator I could set up.

What's going on here? Any ideas? Do I need to change any of the input, 
trigger or arming settings? So far nothing I have tried in the way of 
changing settings makes any difference.

Thanks in anticipation,

Morris






From dhb at post.tele.dk  Tue Jan 19 23:32:05 2016
From: dhb at post.tele.dk (Dan Harboe Burer)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 05:32:05 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <FFE6ADA3FF8D4423967EB2132B101F5B@DanDims>

Hi,

You need one more piece of info: its value! E.g. 1uf, 0.35uF, 2.2uF, 10uF? 
That is quite important :)

Just don't use too old tantalum caps - they tend to absorb moisture over 
time (when stored incorrectly) - and self destruct as you have experienced..
I just experienced the same while renovating a Tek 475 'scope.

Regards
Dan (A newbie from Denmark)

-----Oprindelig meddelelse----- 
From: davidh
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:21 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement

Hi All,

While still appearing to function normally, my PRS10 started to smell:
C900 in the lamp assembly has self destructed.

The SRS parts manual merely says "Capacitor, Tantalum, 35V, 20%, Rad",
so I'd appreciate any advice on what additional parameters I should be
looking at in selecting a replacement.

Thanks,

david

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 


From n3izn at aol.com  Tue Jan 19 21:29:22 2016
From: n3izn at aol.com (n3izn at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:29:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Thinderbolt 10 Mhz output level?
Message-ID: <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>

Has anyone actually measured the 10 Mhz level on their thunderbolt? More than +10 dbm?

Thanks
Chris

From time at rbean.users.panix.com  Tue Jan 19 22:06:34 2016
From: time at rbean.users.panix.com (Ron Bean)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 22:06:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Pendulum clocks based on John Harrison's writing
Message-ID: <20160120030634.GA6133@panix.com>

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/01/pendulum-clock-john-harrison/424614/

|The contemporary British clockmaker George Daniels has called the text 
|“rubbish”; Rupert Gould, the author of the biography Burgess 
|read, described it as “gibberish.”
|
|Burgess disagreed.


From dhooke at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 00:15:57 2016
From: dhooke at gmail.com (davidh)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:15:57 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <FFE6ADA3FF8D4423967EB2132B101F5B@DanDims>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <FFE6ADA3FF8D4423967EB2132B101F5B@DanDims>
Message-ID: <569F180D.3060401@gmail.com>



Folks,

It's a 2.2uF cap, with a 0.125" lead spacing, and I'm looking for 125dC 
temp rating. I wondered if there were other characteristics such as 
ESR/ESL I need to keep in mind.


d.


On 20 Jan 2016 14:32, Dan Harboe Burer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> You need one more piece of info: its value! E.g. 1uf, 0.35uF, 2.2uF,
> 10uF? That is quite important :)
>
> Just don't use too old tantalum caps - they tend to absorb moisture over
> time (when stored incorrectly) - and self destruct as you have
> experienced..
> I just experienced the same while renovating a Tek 475 'scope.
>
> Regards
> Dan (A newbie from Denmark)
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- From: davidh
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:21 PM
> To: time-nuts-JSkTLETqlTM at public.gmane.org
> Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
>
> Hi All,
>
> While still appearing to function normally, my PRS10 started to smell:
> C900 in the lamp assembly has self destructed.
>
> The SRS parts manual merely says "Capacitor, Tantalum, 35V, 20%, Rad",
> so I'd appreciate any advice on what additional parameters I should be
> looking at in selecting a replacement.
>
> Thanks,
>
> david
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts-JSkTLETqlTM at public.gmane.org
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed Jan 20 00:32:24 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 06:32:24 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
In-Reply-To: <D7EBCAC853A649F992BFDB22874360F7@LGLaptop>
References: <D7EBCAC853A649F992BFDB22874360F7@LGLaptop>
Message-ID: <569F1BE8.3000006@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi Morris,

On 01/20/2016 03:48 AM, Morris Odell wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I recently was fortunate enough to obtain one of these amazing
> instruments but regrettable no copy of the main operating manual. I find
> myself a bit puzzled by some of it's behaviour.

I strongly advice you to download the manuals. It is an instrument that 
is puzzling at times, so the manuals are needed. The upside is that they 
are really interesting. The operators and programming manuals get you 
understand what it really does. You also want the service manual.
Anyway, last time I looked I could download them from Agilent/Keysight.

> The unit is clean and passes all the self-tests. When I first got it it
> seemed to work very nicely looking at my in-house 10 MHz frequency
> standard which is a Z3815 GPSDO. It needed a new memory back up battery
> and once I replaced it I tried to do the input sensitivity recalibration
> procedure that's required. That procedure  requires the application of a
> 10 KHz 60 mv p-p sine wave and that's when I ran into trouble.

Been there, done that, was relatively painless.

> I have found that if I and try to look at low frequency signals with the
> 5372A they appear to have enormous levels of variation and appear quite
> erratic. The histogram display just shows peaks all over the place. I
> have tried with 10 KHz from a 3325B and 100 KHz from a 8656B both of
> which use the GPSDO as a reference and they both show enormous
> variation. It's the same whether I use the GPSDO as a ref for the 5372A
> or it's own internal ref.  If I apply 10 MHz and above from either of
> the two generators all looks well but there are occasional glitches.
> Using the A or B inputs or swapping input pods makes no difference. With
> VHF and UHF frequencies up to the 990 MHz limit of the 8656B it seems to
> work perfectly using the C channel of the 5372B.
>
> I thought it might have been something to do with the synthesized nature
> of the 3325 and 8656 so I warmed up the old faithful 200CD at 10 KHz and
> it didn't make any difference although the 200CD would never be as
> stable as a more modern synthesized source locked to the GPS. I haven't
> tried it yet with anything higher in frequency although I do have a 2
> GHz non-synthesized generator I could set up.
>
> What's going on here? Any ideas? Do I need to change any of the input,
> trigger or arming settings? So far nothing I have tried in the way of
> changing settings makes any difference.

Trigger jitter. More importantly, now you see it!

The trigger jitter follows the formula:

t_jitter = e_n / S

e_n is the noise voltage RMS value
S is the slew-rate
t_jitter is the trigger jitter RMS value

Slew-rate depends for sine signals on the amplitude and frequency:

S = 2*pi*f*A_peak = sqrt(2)*pi*f*A_rms

where f is frequency
A_peak is peak amplitude
A_rms is RMS amplitude

In practice, there is some instrument local jitter which adds on top of 
this, which adds as

t_total = sqrt(t_jitter^2 + t_instrument^2)

Anyway. Experiment with amplitude and frequency and see if your jitter 
follow these properties. Try to establish the e_n noise level. Try 
verify it against instrument specifications.

Just could be that this is a learning experience rather than an 
instrument fault, and the only fault of the instrument is that it now 
actually shows you this jitter.

As you accumulate you should get a gaussian distribution.

Cheers,
Magnus

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Wed Jan 20 01:06:10 2016
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 22:06:10 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Pendulum clocks based on John Harrison's writing
References: <20160120030634.GA6133@panix.com>
Message-ID: <D014861546BB43CDA74CE25D776BF516@pc52>

Hi Ron,

That's a nice article. For more information on Clock B see:

http://leapsecond.com/pend/clockb/

Under "technical links" you'll see a copy of my presentation at the Harrison conference last year in Greenwich, with all the charts, graphs, and ADEV plots a time nut could wish for...

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Bean" <time at rbean.users.panix.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:06 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Pendulum clocks based on John Harrison's writing


http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/01/pendulum-clock-john-harrison/424614/

|The contemporary British clockmaker George Daniels has called the text 
|“rubbish”; Rupert Gould, the author of the biography Burgess 
|read, described it as “gibberish.”
|
|Burgess disagreed.



From orin.eman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 01:49:32 2016
From: orin.eman at gmail.com (Orin Eman)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 22:49:32 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Thinderbolt 10 Mhz output level?
In-Reply-To: <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>
References: <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjY7U_aFT+sJaST32Ghec51AniYj6HURO3W3PS4b4o0SLRZyQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have now:

+11.7 dBm on the 8568A spectrum analyzer with 2nd & third harmonics at -60
dBc.

So yes, mine is a dB or two above +10dBm.

Orin.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Chris Arnold via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Has anyone actually measured the 10 Mhz level on their thunderbolt? More
> than +10 dbm?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Wed Jan 20 01:59:39 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 01:59:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <569F180D.3060401@gmail.com>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <FFE6ADA3FF8D4423967EB2132B101F5B@DanDims>
 <569F180D.3060401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160120095943.xgl0Ug1a@smtp3o.mail.yandex.net>

david wrote:

>It's a 2.2uF cap, with a 0.125" lead spacing, and I'm looking for 
>125dC temp rating. I wondered if there were other characteristics 
>such as ESR/ESL I need to keep in mind.

You're on the right track.  Get the highest temperature rating 
available (which is probably 125C), buy only caps manufactured by one 
of the known-good manufacturers, and select from a parts series the 
manufacturer designates as "high reliability" (or equivalent).

If it is a solid tantalum, I like the Vishay 199D Series.  The AVX 
TAP Series and the Kemet "T" Series ("UltraDip II") are also high 
quality.  (This list isn't exhaustive -- these are just the ones I've 
had occasion to qualify.)

Best regards,

Charles



From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Wed Jan 20 02:07:52 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 02:07:52 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt 10 Mhz output level?
In-Reply-To: <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>
References: <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20160120100756.7tSOHCdU@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>

Chris wrote:

>Has anyone actually measured the 10 Mhz level on their thunderbolt? 
>More than +10 dbm?

Yes.  In my experience, generally +12.4 to +13.3 dBm into a 50 ohm 
load (nominally 1vrms).

Best regards,

Charles



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Wed Jan 20 01:42:27 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 22:42:27 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Thinderbolt 10 Mhz output level?
In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Arnold via time-nuts <time-nuts@febo.com>
 of "Tue,
 19 Jan 2016 21:29:22 EST." <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20160120064227.1CDCD406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


time-nuts at febo.com said:
> Has anyone actually measured the 10 Mhz level on their thunderbolt? More
> than +10 dbm? 

My scope says 5V p-p unterminated.  Half that into a 50 ohm terminator.

[My brain doesn't think in dB.  You will have to do the conversion.]


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From vilgotch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Jan 20 03:59:17 2016
From: vilgotch at bigpond.net.au (Morris Odell)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 19:59:17 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
Message-ID: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>

Thanks very much for your reply Magnus,

> I strongly advice you to download the manuals. It is an instrument that 
> is puzzling at times, so the manuals are needed. The upside is that they 
> are really interesting. The operators and programming manuals get you 
> understand what it really does. You also want the service manual.
> Anyway, last time I looked I could download them from Agilent/Keysight.

I have downloaded what's there, unfortunately there's no operator's manual but I did the "Getting Started Guide" with the instrument. The prog manual might stimulate me to get GPIB up and running.

> Trigger jitter. More importantly, now you see it!
> The trigger jitter follows the formula:

> t_jitter = e_n / S

> e_n is the noise voltage RMS value
> S is the slew-rate
> t_jitter is the trigger jitter RMS value
<snip>

That explains it nicely! As you would expect the jitter is much less when a square wave is the input. I will look into the manuals to see the spec and what can be done about it. Measuring it as you suggest will be an interesting project. Maybe it's something that resulted from the long period of inactivity the device had. I will also check the power supplies for voltage accuracy and ripple. 

Thanks again,

Morris VK3DOC
Melbourne, Australia


From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Jan 20 06:28:24 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:28:24 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:34:56 -0500
Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> The nice thing about a FPGA (or CPLD) is that they come with a cute timing analyzer. You can indeed
> answer questions like this with a quite high level of confidence. That *assumes* that you bother to set
> up the timing analyzer :) 

I wouldn't trust that timing analyzer too much. We just build a TDC using
an Cyclone 4 FPGA here (actually, porting the OHWR delay line TDC from
Spartan to Cyclone) and the timing analysis was... weird, at best.

Although the average delay was about right (40ps and 120ps) it only
showed a two element structure, ie the delays of the chain were
"40ps, 120ps, 40ps, 120ps,..." without any higher level structure
(which should have shown). The test results showed a quite more
detailed structure with few delays over 100ps and most being between
20ps and 80ps. Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
we have no explanation good explanation.

				Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 20 07:43:01 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:43:01 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <20160120095943.xgl0Ug1a@smtp3o.mail.yandex.net>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <FFE6ADA3FF8D4423967EB2132B101F5B@DanDims> <569F180D.3060401@gmail.com>
 <20160120095943.xgl0Ug1a@smtp3o.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <DA73AEDC-797E-4F6D-97CC-7DB670869B2B@n1k.org>

Hi


The only thing I would add to that is:

Get it from Mouser or Digi-Key. That way you have a pretty good chance of it being one
that really came from the manufacturer you think it’s coming from. You also are a lot 
less likely to get one that has been on the shelf forever and ever. 

One really strange thing about Tantalum’s: They *like* bias and temperature. The 
time you are most likely to see high leakage is when they have been power off for 
a long time. That’s another reason to want a new one …

Bob

> On Jan 20, 2016, at 1:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:
> 
> david wrote:
> 
>> It's a 2.2uF cap, with a 0.125" lead spacing, and I'm looking for 125dC temp rating. I wondered if there were other characteristics such as ESR/ESL I need to keep in mind.
> 
> You're on the right track.  Get the highest temperature rating available (which is probably 125C), buy only caps manufactured by one of the known-good manufacturers, and select from a parts series the manufacturer designates as "high reliability" (or equivalent).
> 
> If it is a solid tantalum, I like the Vishay 199D Series.  The AVX TAP Series and the Kemet "T" Series ("UltraDip II") are also high quality.  (This list isn't exhaustive -- these are just the ones I've had occasion to qualify.)
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 20 07:46:27 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:46:27 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Thinderbolt 10 Mhz output level?
In-Reply-To: <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>
References: <1525cdd70da-1afd-187f1@webprd-a95.mail.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DEA77CF-F308-4784-92E8-395571CAED05@n1k.org>

Hi

If it’s below 10 dbm, it’s broken in some way. That’s often something simple like the output 
coupling components or a solder joint on the coax connector. 

Bob

> On Jan 19, 2016, at 9:29 PM, Chris Arnold via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone actually measured the 10 Mhz level on their thunderbolt? More than +10 dbm?
> 
> Thanks
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Jan 20 08:18:37 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:18:37 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <CAPyJ-YVUK1P0sDt-t=wR8K+AURc5K9=8zyOOU0gGfZxq=rrTLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPyJ-YVUK1P0sDt-t=wR8K+AURc5K9=8zyOOU0gGfZxq=rrTLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160120141837.46906ebbd360363f97224998@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:44:15 -0600
"Graham / KE9H" <ke9h.graham at gmail.com> wrote:

> You will need to know the capacitance value.  Usually expressed in uF
> (micro Farad).
> Then some idea of the physical size, so the replacement will fit in the
> current space.

According to the schematics sheet I have (from didier's site), the value
is 2u2. Unfortunately, there is no mention of the actual type of the case
(beside being radial).
As it seems to be part of an 107kHz low pass filter, I would assume
that most tantal capacitors and probably all ceramic capacitors that
fullfill the 35V spec are ok. As this is a heated part of the whole
circuit, i'd go for an capacitor that is rated for 35V at 100°C or higher.

Good candidates for capacitor manufacturers are Kemet and AVX
(higher quality than the cheaper manufacturers and still reasonably priced)

				Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Jan 20 09:13:11 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:13:11 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org> <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <37544.1453299191@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835 at kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w
rites:

>The test results showed a quite more
>detailed structure with few delays over 100ps and most being between
>20ps and 80ps. Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
>we have no explanation good explanation.

Any on-chip PLL's with "spread-spectrum" to fudge EMI tests ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Jan 20 09:21:02 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:21:02 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <37544.1453299191@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
 <37544.1453299191@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20160120152102.8c7af39a45506f19a9b674e8@kinali.ch>

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:13:11 +0000
"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> >The test results showed a quite more
> >detailed structure with few delays over 100ps and most being between
> >20ps and 80ps. Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
> >we have no explanation good explanation.
> 
> Any on-chip PLL's with "spread-spectrum" to fudge EMI tests ?

Nope, the cyclone4 PLLs do not support spread spectrum.
Also, the 0ps positions were stable (suggesting some FPGA
internal feature to be the cause), but they weren't evenly
spread over the delay chain.

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From gcarlistaa at garychatters.com  Wed Jan 20 09:36:04 2016
From: gcarlistaa at garychatters.com (Gary Chatters)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:36:04 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
In-Reply-To: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
References: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <569F9B54.8060509@garychatters.com>

On 01/20/2016 03:59 AM, Morris Odell wrote:
> Thanks very much for your reply Magnus,
>
[...]
>
> I have downloaded what's there, unfortunately there's no operator's manual but I did the "Getting Started Guide" with the instrument. The prog manual might stimulate me to get GPIB up and running.
>

The Keysight website has eight manuals for the HP5372A, including two 
versions of "5372A Frequency and Time Interval Analyzer Operating 
Manual".  Is this not what you need?

There are also a Service Manual and a Programming Manual and others.

[...]

From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 09:27:29 2016
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:27:29 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <DA73AEDC-797E-4F6D-97CC-7DB670869B2B@n1k.org>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <FFE6ADA3FF8D4423967EB2132B101F5B@DanDims>
 <569F180D.3060401@gmail.com>
 <20160120095943.xgl0Ug1a@smtp3o.mail.yandex.net>
 <DA73AEDC-797E-4F6D-97CC-7DB670869B2B@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzRPTZctncDiv=_wfDKPzQwDyQi74d=HcZkjg63FhnVELA@mail.gmail.com>

Do tantalum then benefit from being 'reformed'  in a similar fashion to wet
electrolytics?

Do they recover from moisture ingress by baking in a similar fashion to SMD
chips that have been stored incorrectly?
On 20 Jan 2016 14:10, "Bob Camp" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
>
> The only thing I would add to that is:
>
> Get it from Mouser or Digi-Key. That way you have a pretty good chance of
> it being one
> that really came from the manufacturer you think it’s coming from. You
> also are a lot
> less likely to get one that has been on the shelf forever and ever.
>
> One really strange thing about Tantalum’s: They *like* bias and
> temperature. The
> time you are most likely to see high leakage is when they have been power
> off for
> a long time. That’s another reason to want a new one …
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 20, 2016, at 1:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > david wrote:
> >
> >> It's a 2.2uF cap, with a 0.125" lead spacing, and I'm looking for 125dC
> temp rating. I wondered if there were other characteristics such as ESR/ESL
> I need to keep in mind.
> >
> > You're on the right track.  Get the highest temperature rating available
> (which is probably 125C), buy only caps manufactured by one of the
> known-good manufacturers, and select from a parts series the manufacturer
> designates as "high reliability" (or equivalent).
> >
> > If it is a solid tantalum, I like the Vishay 199D Series.  The AVX TAP
> Series and the Kemet "T" Series ("UltraDip II") are also high quality.
> (This list isn't exhaustive -- these are just the ones I've had occasion to
> qualify.)
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed Jan 20 14:22:17 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:22:17 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
In-Reply-To: <569F9B54.8060509@garychatters.com>
References: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
 <569F9B54.8060509@garychatters.com>
Message-ID: <569FDE69.2020103@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Morris and Gary,

On 01/20/2016 03:36 PM, Gary Chatters wrote:
> On 01/20/2016 03:59 AM, Morris Odell wrote:
>> Thanks very much for your reply Magnus,
>>
> [...]
>>
>> I have downloaded what's there, unfortunately there's no operator's
>> manual but I did the "Getting Started Guide" with the instrument. The
>> prog manual might stimulate me to get GPIB up and running.
>>
>
> The Keysight website has eight manuals for the HP5372A, including two
> versions of "5372A Frequency and Time Interval Analyzer Operating
> Manual".  Is this not what you need?
>
> There are also a Service Manual and a Programming Manual and others.

Good, then I have not remembered completely wrong.

Link-time:
http://www.keysight.com/main/facet.jspx?&cc=US&lc=eng&k=5372A&sm=g

Operating manual:
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/05372-90035.pdf?id=726057

Service manual:
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/05372-90016.pdf?id=734204

Cheers,
Magnus

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed Jan 20 14:38:50 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:38:50 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
In-Reply-To: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
References: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <569FE24A.5050704@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi Morris,

On 01/20/2016 09:59 AM, Morris Odell wrote:
> Thanks very much for your reply Magnus,
>
>> I strongly advice you to download the manuals. It is an instrument that
>> is puzzling at times, so the manuals are needed. The upside is that they
>> are really interesting. The operators and programming manuals get you
>> understand what it really does. You also want the service manual.
>> Anyway, last time I looked I could download them from Agilent/Keysight.
>
> I have downloaded what's there, unfortunately there's no operator's manual but I did the "Getting Started Guide" with the instrument. The prog manual might stimulate me to get GPIB up and running.

See the other link. The trick is to search for "5372A" and not for 
"HP5372A".

>> Trigger jitter. More importantly, now you see it!
>> The trigger jitter follows the formula:
>
>> t_jitter = e_n / S
>
>> e_n is the noise voltage RMS value
>> S is the slew-rate
>> t_jitter is the trigger jitter RMS value
> <snip>
>
> That explains it nicely! As you would expect the jitter is much less when a square wave is the input.

Great!

> I will look into the manuals to see the spec and what can be done about it. Measuring it as you suggest will be an interesting project.

Hint: Check the Numeric presentation and see the standard deviation, 
which will work as you collect blocks of samples, let's say 8000.

> Maybe it's something that resulted from the long period of inactivity the device had. I will also check the power supplies for voltage accuracy and ripple.

Well, do the check.

Figure out how you can make the HP5372A to calculate the slew-rate for 
you. Voltage divided by time is the hint. :)
With that, you can measure slew-rate and jitter (standard deviation) of 
the different signals. You can then experiment with amplitude and frequency.

73 de SA0MAD Magnus

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed Jan 20 15:01:23 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:01:23 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160120152102.8c7af39a45506f19a9b674e8@kinali.ch>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org> <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
 <37544.1453299191@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20160120152102.8c7af39a45506f19a9b674e8@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <569FE793.1040502@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Attila,

On 01/20/2016 03:21 PM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 14:13:11 +0000
> "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
>>> The test results showed a quite more
>>> detailed structure with few delays over 100ps and most being between
>>> 20ps and 80ps. Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
>>> we have no explanation good explanation.
>>
>> Any on-chip PLL's with "spread-spectrum" to fudge EMI tests ?
>
> Nope, the cyclone4 PLLs do not support spread spectrum.
> Also, the 0ps positions were stable (suggesting some FPGA
> internal feature to be the cause), but they weren't evenly
> spread over the delay chain.

The timing report and estimator is just to make sure that a synchron 
design will work. The type of jitter/noise that you see is kind of 
typical. It's not that I don't like FPGA, I love it, but I just don't 
trust it for precision timing like that.

Cheers,
Magnus

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Jan 20 15:11:03 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 20:11:03 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
In-Reply-To: <569FDE69.2020103@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
 <569F9B54.8060509@garychatters.com> <569FDE69.2020103@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <62222.1453320663@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <569FDE69.2020103 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:

>Good, then I have not remembered completely wrong.

The 5371 and 5373 manuals are not without relevance either, and
don't overlook the app-notes and the HPJ (1989-02) articles either.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From bob at evoria.net  Wed Jan 20 16:32:57 2016
From: bob at evoria.net (Bob Stewart)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 21:32:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
References: <1441227662.8834363.1453325577732.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1441227662.8834363.1453325577732.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Poul,

Your comment about on-chip PLLs got me to wondering about the dsPIC33FJ128MC804 I'm using in my GPSDO.  So, I put it on the 5370A to see what's up.  Input to the gate port is the drive signal for an LED that I flash at 1PPS (controlled by an on-chip timer).  I delay that with a 10ft piece of RG-58 to drive the start gate.  The stop gate is driven by the OCXO output from the GPSDO.  Internally, the chip's PLL is running at 160MHz  (10MHz OCXO / 2 * 32), which is divided down to 80MHz for FOSC and then by 2 again for FCY, if you know these dsPICs.

The ADEV at 1s is about 1.7E-10, declining at about a decade per decade.  I take this to represent the jitter of the PIC's onboard RC oscillator as driven by the OCXO.

Bob



--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 1/20/16, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
 To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>, "Attila Kinali" <attila at kinali.ch>
 Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2016, 8:13 AM
 
 --------
 In message <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835 at kinali.ch>,
 Attila Kinali w
 rites:
 
 >The test results showed a quite more
 >detailed structure with few delays over
 100ps and most being between
 >20ps and
 80ps. Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
 >we have no explanation good explanation.
 
 Any on-chip PLL's with
 "spread-spectrum" to fudge EMI tests ?
 
 -- 
 Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 20 17:56:31 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 17:56:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org> <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <2C9D2358-61F1-4A5B-B9A8-A79423647EAF@n1k.org>

Hi


> On Jan 20, 2016, at 6:28 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:34:56 -0500
> Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> The nice thing about a FPGA (or CPLD) is that they come with a cute timing analyzer. You can indeed
>> answer questions like this with a quite high level of confidence. That *assumes* that you bother to set
>> up the timing analyzer :) 
> 
> I wouldn't trust that timing analyzer too much. We just build a TDC using
> an Cyclone 4 FPGA here (actually, porting the OHWR delay line TDC from
> Spartan to Cyclone) and the timing analysis was... weird, at best.
> 

Been there / done that on both parts. The timing analyzer is doing what it is supposed to do =
analyze the worst case delays against the constraints you provided. It then makes sure that
the data gets where it needs to go “in time” for it to be correct. The approach is typical semiconductor
industry “six sigma over a billion cycles on a billion devices each with a billion gates” sort of thing. 
The result is a part that does indeed work. It’s not much use for predicting things like jitter.  

> Although the average delay was about right (40ps and 120ps) it only
> showed a two element structure, ie the delays of the chain were
> "40ps, 120ps, 40ps, 120ps,..." without any higher level structure
> (which should have shown). The test results showed a quite more
> detailed structure with few delays over 100ps and most being between
> 20ps and 80ps.

Some of which are fabric (routing) delays). Some of which are simply the analog nature of digital 
circuits (noise matters, gain matters). Some of them may be a result of auto routing the design rather
than manually placing everything. (Yes manual routing can help. It’s a major pain for fairly little gain).

> Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
> we have no explanation good explanation.

The explanation is fairly simple, you have a clock and a “data pulse” flying down the delay / carry chain. With 
an ASIC you could make sure they take a very linear route through the silicon. With a FPGA you can’t do that.
Both are routed through this and that. When you get down to the ps level, there is no guarantee which one
gets there first. Even if there was, the aperture time on the flip flops is sensitive to things like voltage and temperature.
What you see this time may not be what you see that time. There are a whole bunch of papers on  all of this.
Bottom line, not all indicated data patterns can be placed in a nice orderly plot ( = you don’t know which one
came first). About the only way to order them is to count the zeros. Not perfect, but about the best you can do.

Bob

> 
> 				Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 20 18:00:11 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:00:11 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 C900 replacement
In-Reply-To: <CAN7ULzRPTZctncDiv=_wfDKPzQwDyQi74d=HcZkjg63FhnVELA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <n7mcst$lu2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <FFE6ADA3FF8D4423967EB2132B101F5B@DanDims> <569F180D.3060401@gmail.com>
 <20160120095943.xgl0Ug1a@smtp3o.mail.yandex.net>
 <DA73AEDC-797E-4F6D-97CC-7DB670869B2B@n1k.org>
 <CAN7ULzRPTZctncDiv=_wfDKPzQwDyQi74d=HcZkjg63FhnVELA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <984F01FA-F42B-4E3C-8A61-E2FD7467164E@n1k.org>

Hi

Tantalums can benefit from a 1K resistor sort of “rebuild”. On any part made 
in the last 30 years by a major outfit, it should not be required. 

Moisture is sort of a weird issue. Epoxy and humidity do strange things. Getting
it back out is not easy. It also combines with the “guts” of the part. The failure 
mechanism is not the same as soldering a SMD part that has been out in 
the wet world longer than it should have been.

Bob

> On Jan 20, 2016, at 9:27 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Do tantalum then benefit from being 'reformed'  in a similar fashion to wet
> electrolytics?
> 
> Do they recover from moisture ingress by baking in a similar fashion to SMD
> chips that have been stored incorrectly?
> On 20 Jan 2016 14:10, "Bob Camp" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> 
>> The only thing I would add to that is:
>> 
>> Get it from Mouser or Digi-Key. That way you have a pretty good chance of
>> it being one
>> that really came from the manufacturer you think it’s coming from. You
>> also are a lot
>> less likely to get one that has been on the shelf forever and ever.
>> 
>> One really strange thing about Tantalum’s: They *like* bias and
>> temperature. The
>> time you are most likely to see high leakage is when they have been power
>> off for
>> a long time. That’s another reason to want a new one …
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 1:59 AM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> david wrote:
>>> 
>>>> It's a 2.2uF cap, with a 0.125" lead spacing, and I'm looking for 125dC
>> temp rating. I wondered if there were other characteristics such as ESR/ESL
>> I need to keep in mind.
>>> 
>>> You're on the right track.  Get the highest temperature rating available
>> (which is probably 125C), buy only caps manufactured by one of the
>> known-good manufacturers, and select from a parts series the manufacturer
>> designates as "high reliability" (or equivalent).
>>> 
>>> If it is a solid tantalum, I like the Vishay 199D Series.  The AVX TAP
>> Series and the Kemet "T" Series ("UltraDip II") are also high quality.
>> (This list isn't exhaustive -- these are just the ones I've had occasion to
>> qualify.)
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Charles
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bownes at gmail.com  Wed Jan 20 23:26:53 2016
From: bownes at gmail.com (bownes)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 23:26:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
In-Reply-To: <62222.1453320663@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
 <569F9B54.8060509@garychatters.com> <569FDE69.2020103@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <62222.1453320663@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <E641F20E-56B5-4554-B121-9F06BF6814AE@googlemail.com>


Has anyone published a summary of the differences between the '71 & '72?


> On Jan 20, 2016, at 15:11, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <569FDE69.2020103 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
> 
>> Good, then I have not remembered completely wrong.
> 
> The 5371 and 5373 manuals are not without relevance either, and
> don't overlook the app-notes and the HPJ (1989-02) articles either.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From vilgotch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Jan 21 04:30:52 2016
From: vilgotch at bigpond.net.au (Morris Odell)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 20:30:52 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
Message-ID: <000001d1542e$6c5d2ed0$45178c70$@bigpond.net.au>

Thanks Gary,

Thanks very much for your very helpful reply. I found those 2 operators manuals and downloaded them. The Keysight website is slightly confusing as those manuals were not in the same place as the others I found. I now have some great reading to catch up on!!

Morris


From: Gary Chatters <gcarlistaa at garychatters.com>
 [...]
>
> I have downloaded what's there, unfortunately there's no operator's manual but I did the "Getting Started Guide" with the instrument. The prog manual might stimulate me to get GPIB up and running.
>

The Keysight website has eight manuals for the HP5372A, including two 
versions of "5372A Frequency and Time Interval Analyzer Operating 
Manual".  Is this not what you need?

There are also a Service Manual and a Programming Manual and others.

[...]



From timeok at timeok.it  Thu Jan 21 05:02:37 2016
From: timeok at timeok.it (timeok at timeok.it)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:02:37 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] TADD-2 mini LED?
Message-ID: <53824.1453370557@timeok.it>

Reading the operating manual of the TEDD2-mini is write:

 Three LEDs indicate sync status
as well as PPS activity

and:
You now have a choice to make about use of the AUX PPS/LED pad

but in the schematic is not drawn any connection for the two more led as in the old version of the PPS divider.
pse can I have some info about?

ref:  http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf

Luciano
timeok


Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/

From lemimo22 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 21 05:37:31 2016
From: lemimo22 at gmail.com (MICHAUD Pierre)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:37:31 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for UTC OCXO datas
Message-ID: <CANp482ssoS_EhmD5KN41zf8TQte2CJgS8=7w57_o1BpfX1J9gw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am looking for the datas of an OCXO UTC refrence A08663-01 MY3109 10MHz

Thanks in anticipation for the help

From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Jan 21 05:48:08 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:48:08 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <2C9D2358-61F1-4A5B-B9A8-A79423647EAF@n1k.org>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
 <2C9D2358-61F1-4A5B-B9A8-A79423647EAF@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20160121114808.f7056f33426837611c563587@kinali.ch>

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 17:56:31 -0500
Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> > Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
> > we have no good explanation.
> 
> The explanation is fairly simple, you have a clock and a “data pulse”
> flying down the delay / carry chain. With an ASIC you could make sure they
> take a very linear route through the silicon. With a FPGA you can’t do that.
> Both are routed through this and that. 

We placed the delay line manualy and run the calibration loop of the
OHWR TDC. Which does a histogram over all bins excited with a (hopefully)
uncorrelated ring oscillator. We tried both the OHWR temperature to binary
encoder and a "count all zeros/ones" version. Both showed the same behaviour,
ie that some bins hardly see any hits. Yes, i would expect this kind of
thing in general, due to the layout/routing of the wires in the FPGA. But
I would expect it to have some kind of regularity, a kind of pattern in the
distance between these un-excitable bins. But there is none. That's why I'm
saying we have no good explanation for it. 

We have not had the time to analyze the routing in detail to see whether
there is anything fishy there. I will try to squeeze that in, if possible.


			Attila Kinali


-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Jan 21 07:27:15 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 07:27:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <1441227662.8834363.1453325577732.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1441227662.8834363.1453325577732.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1441227662.8834363.1453325577732.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0C490300-EA35-4CE6-90F5-0CFEACC218DC@n1k.org>

Hi

The PLL cocks in MCU’s are abut the worst jitter monsters out there. It’s clear they only make
them as good as they need to be for the internal MCU logic. The PLL’s in the FPGA’s I’ve tested are much
better jitter wise. Part of the issue is that the FPGA VCO’s will “pull” a few percent. Some of the MCU VCO’s are
good over a decade. 

Bob

> On Jan 20, 2016, at 4:32 PM, Bob Stewart <bob at evoria.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Poul,
> 
> Your comment about on-chip PLLs got me to wondering about the dsPIC33FJ128MC804 I'm using in my GPSDO.  So, I put it on the 5370A to see what's up.  Input to the gate port is the drive signal for an LED that I flash at 1PPS (controlled by an on-chip timer).  I delay that with a 10ft piece of RG-58 to drive the start gate.  The stop gate is driven by the OCXO output from the GPSDO.  Internally, the chip's PLL is running at 160MHz  (10MHz OCXO / 2 * 32), which is divided down to 80MHz for FOSC and then by 2 again for FCY, if you know these dsPICs.
> 
> The ADEV at 1s is about 1.7E-10, declining at about a decade per decade.  I take this to represent the jitter of the PIC's onboard RC oscillator as driven by the OCXO.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 1/20/16, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>, "Attila Kinali" <attila at kinali.ch>
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2016, 8:13 AM
> 
> --------
> In message <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835 at kinali.ch>,
> Attila Kinali w
> rites:
> 
>> The test results showed a quite more
>> detailed structure with few delays over
> 100ps and most being between
>> 20ps and
> 80ps. Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
>> we have no explanation good explanation.
> 
> Any on-chip PLL's with
> "spread-spectrum" to fudge EMI tests ?
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Jan 21 07:43:31 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 07:43:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source
In-Reply-To: <20160121114808.f7056f33426837611c563587@kinali.ch>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <n7ir48$lri$1@ger.gmane.org> <b70d16cdba11535ef8ad4245f6a4c8e2@www.patoka.ca>
 <7B17C015-32CA-41A9-BEF4-9DBE56CC51F1@n1k.org>
 <20160120122824.39fb655285dd0e68c3884835@kinali.ch>
 <2C9D2358-61F1-4A5B-B9A8-A79423647EAF@n1k.org>
 <20160121114808.f7056f33426837611c563587@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <2A091D4E-790D-48E7-9C4E-11E7733010AE@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 21, 2016, at 5:48 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 17:56:31 -0500
> Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>>> Interestingly, some were close to 0ps, for which
>>> we have no good explanation.
>> 
>> The explanation is fairly simple, you have a clock and a “data pulse”
>> flying down the delay / carry chain. With an ASIC you could make sure they
>> take a very linear route through the silicon. With a FPGA you can’t do that.
>> Both are routed through this and that. 
> 
> We placed the delay line manualy and run the calibration loop of the
> OHWR TDC. Which does a histogram over all bins excited with a (hopefully)
> uncorrelated ring oscillator. We tried both the OHWR temperature to binary
> encoder and a "count all zeros/ones" version. Both showed the same behaviour,
> ie that some bins hardly see any hits. Yes, i would expect this kind of
> thing in general, due to the layout/routing of the wires in the FPGA. But
> I would expect it to have some kind of regularity, a kind of pattern in the
> distance between these un-excitable bins. But there is none. That's why I'm
> saying we have no good explanation for it. 

That was my conclusion about manual routing. You still have the same “gaps”
as autoroute. There obviously are variations in the cells that are not visible from
a macro level view. Given the fine detail involved, that’s not a major surprise. They
are packing stuff in there mighty tight. A 10% variation in this or that probably scores  
as “that’s fine” process wise. It’s certainly fine in terms of off the shelf digital logic. 
For a TDC that’s probably not a “that’s fine” on some parameters.

Consider the voltage threshold that the logic decides is a one vs a zero. On off the
shelf logic that’s a 20% to 80% sort of spec. It may be more consistent than that, but
they spec it that way. All of your clock and data signals are slew rate limited. A variation
in logic threshold will ultimately come up as a timing issue. There are many things like that
in there ... 

Bob


> 
> We have not had the time to analyze the routing in detail to see whether
> there is anything fishy there. I will try to squeeze that in, if possible.
> 
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jra at febo.com  Thu Jan 21 08:25:21 2016
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 08:25:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] TADD-2 mini LED?
In-Reply-To: <53824.1453370557@timeok.it>
References: <53824.1453370557@timeok.it>
Message-ID: <56A0DC41.9020306@febo.com>

I'm not in front of the manual or the board right now, but if you look 
at the layout you will see two pairs of pads at the output end of the 
board.  If you look at the way the pads are physically arranged along 
with the schematic, you'll see that you can either connect to two of the 
pads to get an additional PPS output, or by using all 4 pads you can 
install a series dropping resistor (easiest to use an SMD part rather 
than through-hole) along with an LED that will flash PPS.

The T2-Mini does not have the SYNC and ARM LEDs of the larger board; 
there just isn't room.  The sentence in the manual about three LEDs is 
an error that must be left over from cutting and pasting the original 
manual.  You're the first one to point it out, and I'll update the 
manual as soon as I get a chance.  Thanks!

John.

On 1/21/2016 5:02 AM, timeok at timeok.it wrote:
> Reading the operating manual of the TEDD2-mini is write:
>
>   Three LEDs indicate sync status
> as well as PPS activity
>
> and:
> You now have a choice to make about use of the AUX PPS/LED pad
>
> but in the schematic is not drawn any connection for the two more led as in the old version of the PPS divider.
> pse can I have some info about?
>
> ref:  http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/T2_Mini_Manual.pdf
>
> Luciano
> timeok
>
>
> Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 21 09:43:01 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 06:43:01 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>

My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr, and 
I'm looking at alternative schemes.
One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply them 
up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and I've 
used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some spare 
board real estate on another board.

The 2diode multiplier describes using 1n5711 or 1n914, but I was 
wondering if anyone has run this sort of multiplier up to 100 MHz?

What sort of symmetry does the resulting waveform have (yeah, it's 
basically a filtered sinewave, because you're picking a harmonic, but 
I've been surprised before)?




I'm driving an FPGA and a couple of ADCs.  The ADCs have differential 
input that is 10kohms with 9pF in parallel offset from ground in the 
usual way (we're using a transformer and appropriate bias resistors). 
Not a 50 ohm load, in any case.  And it wants a clock that is high for 
about 47.5% to 52.5% in one mode and much wider (30%-70% in another).. I 
need to check.

The FPGA is less critical noise-wise, and has a AD8138 buffer in any 
case, which can fix a variety of evils.




From preilley_454 at comcast.net  Thu Jan 21 10:17:15 2016
From: preilley_454 at comcast.net (Peter Reilley)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 10:17:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>

Have you considered synthesizers?   I am using an Analog Devices AD9517 
to drive a A/D
converter at 250 MHz.   It has many clock outputs that are independently 
configurable.
It is intended for low jitter applications.

Pete.

On 1/21/2016 9:43 AM, jimlux wrote:
> My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr, 
> and I'm looking at alternative schemes.
> One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply 
> them up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and 
> I've used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some 
> spare board real estate on another board.
>
> The 2diode multiplier describes using 1n5711 or 1n914, but I was 
> wondering if anyone has run this sort of multiplier up to 100 MHz?
>
> What sort of symmetry does the resulting waveform have (yeah, it's 
> basically a filtered sinewave, because you're picking a harmonic, but 
> I've been surprised before)?
>
>
>
>
> I'm driving an FPGA and a couple of ADCs.  The ADCs have differential 
> input that is 10kohms with 9pF in parallel offset from ground in the 
> usual way (we're using a transformer and appropriate bias resistors). 
> Not a 50 ohm load, in any case.  And it wants a clock that is high for 
> about 47.5% to 52.5% in one mode and much wider (30%-70% in another).. 
> I need to check.
>
> The FPGA is less critical noise-wise, and has a AD8138 buffer in any 
> case, which can fix a variety of evils.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Jan 21 12:10:05 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:10:05 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20160121181005.14d379505190c6eb7b268450@kinali.ch>

Moin Jim,

On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 06:43:01 -0800
jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:

> The 2diode multiplier describes using 1n5711 or 1n914, but I was 
> wondering if anyone has run this sort of multiplier up to 100 MHz?
> 
> What sort of symmetry does the resulting waveform have (yeah, it's 
> basically a filtered sinewave, because you're picking a harmonic, but 
> I've been surprised before)?

I haven't looked into that much, but I have one paper that deals exactly
with that. It's the paper[1] that describes the 200MHz oscillator for
the SAW filter excitation based TDC's by Petr Panek. I'm attaching it,
as it has disapeared from the net in the meantime.

They use ECL gates to generate the harmonic content to get to 100MHz, then
use a mini circuits frequency double to get to 200MHz, followed by a
crystal filter, amplifier and an comparator to square it.

HTH

			Attila Kinali


[1] "Frequency Source 200 MHz for Time Interval Measurements,
Providing Sub-Picosecond Precision and Stability", by Kölbl, Sperber, Prochazka
http://www.eos-aus.com/img/pdfs/EOSO_Paper-200MHz_Multiplier.pdf


-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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From richard at karlquist.com  Thu Jan 21 12:26:46 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 09:26:46 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56A114D6.30805@karlquist.com>

It is interesting that the HP8662A multiplies 10 MHz to 640 MHz,
in steps of 2X.  But there is a crystal filter at 80 MHz to
clean up the wideband noise of the 10811.  In the 11729, they
filter the 640 MHz from the 8662 with a SAW filter, again to
eliminate multiplied up wideband noise.  It's going to be
tough to replace a 100 MHz OCXO by multiplying.  You have
the additional problem that 100 MHz is not a power of 2
multiplication.  I think you're stuck waiting for your
OCXO's.

Rick Karlquist N6RK



On 1/21/2016 6:43 AM, jimlux wrote:
> My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr, and
> I'm looking at alternative schemes.
> One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply them
> up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and I've
> used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some spare
> board real estate on another board.
>
> The 2diode multiplier describes using 1n5711 or 1n914, but I was
> wondering if anyone has run this sort of multiplier up to 100 MHz?
>
> What sort of symmetry does the resulting waveform have (yeah, it's
> basically a filtered sinewave, because you're picking a harmonic, but
> I've been surprised before)?
>
>
>
>
> I'm driving an FPGA and a couple of ADCs.  The ADCs have differential
> input that is 10kohms with 9pF in parallel offset from ground in the
> usual way (we're using a transformer and appropriate bias resistors).
> Not a 50 ohm load, in any case.  And it wants a clock that is high for
> about 47.5% to 52.5% in one mode and much wider (30%-70% in another).. I
> need to check.
>
> The FPGA is less critical noise-wise, and has a AD8138 buffer in any
> case, which can fix a variety of evils.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 21 14:43:04 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 11:43:04 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <56A134C8.4060006@earthlink.net>

On 1/21/16 7:17 AM, Peter Reilley wrote:
> Have you considered synthesizers?   I am using an Analog Devices AD9517
> to drive a A/D
> converter at 250 MHz.   It has many clock outputs that are independently
> configurable.
> It is intended for low jitter applications.
>

So you run the PLL VCO at 1 GHz or something and program it to divide down?

I'm a bit leery of parts that talk about "low jitter" because they 
typically integrate from 10kHz out to some MHz, and I'm concerned about 
phase noise in the <10kHz offset range.

I guess that really depends on what the loop bandwidth is, the noise I'm 
concerned about is probably inside the loop and will be driven by my 
reference.

I'll take a look at the part.


> Pete.
>
> On 1/21/2016 9:43 AM, jimlux wrote:
>> My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr,
>> and I'm looking at alternative schemes.
>> One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply
>> them up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and
>> I've used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some
>> spare board real estate on another board.
>>
>> The 2diode multiplier describes using 1n5711 or 1n914, but I was
>> wondering if anyone has run this sort of multiplier up to 100 MHz?
>>
>> What sort of symmetry does the resulting waveform have (yeah, it's
>> basically a filtered sinewave, because you're picking a harmonic, but
>> I've been surprised before)?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm driving an FPGA and a couple of ADCs.  The ADCs have differential
>> input that is 10kohms with 9pF in parallel offset from ground in the
>> usual way (we're using a transformer and appropriate bias resistors).
>> Not a 50 ohm load, in any case.  And it wants a clock that is high for
>> about 47.5% to 52.5% in one mode and much wider (30%-70% in another)..
>> I need to check.
>>
>> The FPGA is less critical noise-wise, and has a AD8138 buffer in any
>> case, which can fix a variety of evils.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 21 15:30:02 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:30:02 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A114D6.30805@karlquist.com>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A114D6.30805@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <56A13FCA.6000104@earthlink.net>

On 1/21/16 9:26 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> It is interesting that the HP8662A multiplies 10 MHz to 640 MHz,
> in steps of 2X.  But there is a crystal filter at 80 MHz to
> clean up the wideband noise of the 10811.  In the 11729, they
> filter the 640 MHz from the 8662 with a SAW filter, again to
> eliminate multiplied up wideband noise.  It's going to be
> tough to replace a 100 MHz OCXO by multiplying.  You have
> the additional problem that 100 MHz is not a power of 2
> multiplication.  I think you're stuck waiting for your
> OCXO's.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
>

Not so much the wait (which is painful, but can be accommodated), as the 
risk that they might not work at all, or that there's another slip. 
Unexpected delay is often "we couldn't get it to work yet". Or, it could 
be "Bob, the guy who does this, is snowbound for a week".  You never 
know for sure, eh?

So, I'm coming up with backup plans..
something like 20 MHz OCXO, x5 Wenzel 2 diode multiplier, PotatoSemi buffer.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Jan 21 16:51:05 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 22:51:05 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A advice
In-Reply-To: <E641F20E-56B5-4554-B121-9F06BF6814AE@googlemail.com>
References: <000001d15360$d860bf80$89223e80$@bigpond.net.au>
 <569F9B54.8060509@garychatters.com> <569FDE69.2020103@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <62222.1453320663@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <E641F20E-56B5-4554-B121-9F06BF6814AE@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <56A152C9.5040102@rubidium.dyndns.org>

The main feature in the '72 compared to '71 is the hardware accelerated 
histogram function. This allows you to do millions of histogram samples 
a second rather than being limited to the processor to do the calculations.

The '72 have some more analysis modes. HP had this to offer:
http://www.test.it/sitonew/Specifiche%20strumenti/HP/HP%2053310A/HP%2053310A.pdf

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/21/2016 05:26 AM, bownes wrote:
>
> Has anyone published a summary of the differences between the '71 & '72?
>
>
>> On Jan 20, 2016, at 15:11, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>
>> --------
>> In message <569FDE69.2020103 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>>
>>> Good, then I have not remembered completely wrong.
>>
>> The 5371 and 5373 manuals are not without relevance either, and
>> don't overlook the app-notes and the HPJ (1989-02) articles either.
>>
>> --
>> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.

From dk4xp at arcor.de  Thu Jan 21 17:36:16 2016
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 23:36:16 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56A15D60.9020108@arcor.de>

Am 21.01.2016 um 15:43 schrieb jimlux:
> My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr, 
> and I'm looking at alternative schemes.
> One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply 
> them up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and 
> I've used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some 
> spare board real estate on another board.
>
What about locking a 100MHz Crystek CVHD-950 to a 10 MHz ref?
Far out it will not be wonderful, but still better than a multiplied-up 
10 MHz,
close-in the 10 MHz rules.

Has anybody seen seen this simple Wenzel locking circuit?
< http://www.crovencrystals.com/pllclock.htm >

opinions?

regards, Gerhard


From Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com  Fri Jan 22 05:15:11 2016
From: Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com (REEVES Paul)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:15:11 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <776311A518F6F642962EC561A9184090D72225AC94@THSONEP02CMB01P.one-02-priv.grp>

Why not use something like an HP5254B/C ? They give out  50MHz harmonics up to the low Ghz region, all filtered by a nice high-Q tuneable cavity. All to typical HP build quality.
Of course, they have an amount of 'not needed' circuitry and are just a bit  ..... , well, bulky.  Good clean output from 10MHz in though.

Paul       G8GJA

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Reilley
Sent: 21 January 2016 15:17
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz

Have you considered synthesizers?   I am using an Analog Devices AD9517 
to drive a A/D
converter at 250 MHz.   It has many clock outputs that are independently 
configurable.
It is intended for low jitter applications.

Pete.

On 1/21/2016 9:43 AM, jimlux wrote:
> My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr, 
> and I'm looking at alternative schemes.
> One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply 
> them up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and 
> I've used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some 
> spare board real estate on another board.
>
> The 2diode multiplier describes using 1n5711 or 1n914, but I was 
> wondering if anyone has run this sort of multiplier up to 100 MHz?
>
> What sort of symmetry does the resulting waveform have (yeah, it's 
> basically a filtered sinewave, because you're picking a harmonic, but 
> I've been surprised before)?
>
>
>
>
> I'm driving an FPGA and a couple of ADCs.  The ADCs have differential 
> input that is 10kohms with 9pF in parallel offset from ground in the 
> usual way (we're using a transformer and appropriate bias resistors).
> Not a 50 ohm load, in any case.  And it wants a clock that is high for 
> about 47.5% to 52.5% in one mode and much wider (30%-70% in another)..
> I need to check.
>
> The FPGA is less critical noise-wise, and has a AD8138 buffer in any 
> case, which can fix a variety of evils.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From timeok at timeok.it  Fri Jan 22 12:07:29 2016
From: timeok at timeok.it (timeok at timeok.it)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:07:29 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <57151.1453482449@timeok.it>


Have a look on this:

http://www.timeok.it/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/10_to_100_mhz_multiplier1.pdf

Luciano
timeok

On Fri 22/01/16 11:15 , REEVES Paul <Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com> wrote:

> Why not use something like an HP5254B/C ? They give out 50MHz harmonics up
> to the low Ghz region, all filtered by a nice high-Q tuneable cavity. All
> to typical HP build quality.
> Of course, they have an amount of 'not needed' circuitry and are just a
> bit ..... , well, bulky. Good clean output from 10MHz in though.
> 
> Paul G8GJA
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Peter Reilley
> Sent: 21 January 2016 15:17
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
> 
> Have you considered synthesizers? I am using an Analog Devices AD9517
> to drive a A/D
> converter at 250 MHz. It has many clock outputs that are independently
> configurable.
> It is intended for low jitter applications.
> 
> Pete.
> 
> On 1/21/2016 9:43 AM, jimlux wrote:
> > My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr,
> > and I'm looking at alternative schemes.
> > One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply
> > them up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and
> > I've used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some
> > spare board real estate on another board.
> >
> > The 2diode multiplier describes using 1n5711 or 1n914, but I was
> > wondering if anyone has run this sort of multiplier up to 100 MHz?
> >
> > What sort of symmetry does the resulting waveform have (yeah, it's
> > basically a filtered sinewave, because you're picking a harmonic, but
> > I've been surprised before)?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm driving an FPGA and a couple of ADCs. The ADCs have differential
> > input that is 10kohms with 9pF in parallel offset from ground in the
> > usual way (we're using a transformer and appropriate bias resistors).
> > Not a 50 ohm load, in any case. And it wants a clock that is high for
> > about 47.5% to 52.5% in one mode and much wider (30%-70% in another)..
> > I need to check.
> >
> > The FPGA is less critical noise-wise, and has a AD8138 buffer in any
> > case, which can fix a variety of evils.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts [1]
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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> 
> 
> 
> Links:
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Message sent via Atmail Open - http://atmail.org/

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 22 12:20:16 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 09:20:16 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <776311A518F6F642962EC561A9184090D72225AC94@THSONEP02CMB01P.one-02-priv.grp>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
 <776311A518F6F642962EC561A9184090D72225AC94@THSONEP02CMB01P.one-02-priv.grp>
Message-ID: <56A264D0.4020008@earthlink.net>

On 1/22/16 2:15 AM, REEVES Paul wrote:
> Why not use something like an HP5254B/C ? They give out  50MHz harmonics up to the low Ghz region, all filtered by a nice high-Q tuneable cavity. All to typical HP build quality.
> Of course, they have an amount of 'not needed' circuitry and are just a bit  ..... , well, bulky.  Good clean output from 10MHz in though.
>



I guess I wasn't totally clear in my original post. I was looking for 
ideas on circuits - I'm trying to fit this into a few square cm of board 
real estate.

Sadly, if you put the 5254 into a big crusher and squeeze it down to the 
few cm size, the harmonic content seems to drop off dramatically <grin>

I've got some fast Schottky diodes on order for another purpose, so I 
may breadboard the Wenzel circuit and see how it works. I'm thinking the 
1N914 in the Wenzel article might not work so well at 100MHz. I might 
not wind up using it this time, but it's useful to try it.


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Fri Jan 22 13:00:58 2016
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:00:58 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A15D60.9020108@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <1C59EFA529B743B39FC9FCEFD7786CBF@pc52>

The attached plot is from Dr. Ulrich Rohde (KA2WEU at aol.com)
"a PDF of a noise plot , AM FM noise, important technical data"
(he had trouble posting it to the list, so I'm doing it for him)

R_S_SMA_SIG_GEN_100MHz-02.pdf

/tvb
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From th.allgeier at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 14:07:18 2016
From: th.allgeier at gmail.com (Thomas Allgeier)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:07:18 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Navsymm Proteus GPS CDU Software
Message-ID: <15C4C24433604EEAA0A9C3918380AC9F@flintec.uk>

Hello Time-Nuts,



I have recently come into possession of a Navsymm Proteus GPS Time and Frequency Generator. Also known under Navstar Systems. There have been various postings about this piece of kit, in some of which there was a mention of the CDU software which allows to configure it.



The thing powers up but does not lock on. The manual says this could be the case if it was moved since last locked and it may need configuring.



To cut a long story short, does anybody have the CDU software and could it be “shared”? It seems to need an old-style PC but that won’t be a problem around here.



I will meanwhile check if any sense can be made of its outputs, in case there is some hardware problem.



Thanks in advance,

Thomas.

From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Fri Jan 22 15:43:53 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:43:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A264D0.4020008@earthlink.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
 <776311A518F6F642962EC561A9184090D72225AC94@THSONEP02CMB01P.one-02-priv.grp>
 <56A264D0.4020008@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56A29489.3060305@ArtekManuals.com>

On 1/22/2016 12:20 PM, jimlux wrote:
> On 1/22/16 2:15 AM, REEVES Paul wrote:
>> Why not use something like an HP5254B/C ? They give out  50MHz 
>> harmonics up to the low Ghz region, all filtered by a nice high-Q 
>> tuneable cavity. All to typical HP build quality.
>> Of course, they have an amount of 'not needed' circuitry and are just 
>> a bit  ..... , well, bulky.  Good clean output from 10MHz in though.
>>
>
>
>
> I guess I wasn't totally clear in my original post. I was looking for 
> ideas on circuits - I'm trying to fit this into a few square cm of 
> board real estate.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

Jim

OK ...coming back to the original post and see if we can nail down ALL 
the design requirements

You said

"My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr, and
I'm looking at alternative schemes.
One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply them
up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and I've
used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some spare
board real estate on another board."

So I ask then, what is the real set of design requirements

1) Space of a few sq CM is the goal
2) 5X or 10X  frequency multiplication
3) Input and output level (?????????)
4)Title said "Low Noise"  needs better definition as to what kind of 
noise and how far down. Are we to be  concerned about harmonic and spur 
content as compared to real random white noise?
5) Power requirements (0 to 5V  at ?? ma ...or?)
6) Stability requirement in PPM?


Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals.com


-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From ka2weu at aol.com  Fri Jan 22 15:39:29 2016
From: ka2weu at aol.com (Dr. Ulrich Rohde)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 15:39:29 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <1C59EFA529B743B39FC9FCEFD7786CBF@pc52>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A15D60.9020108@arcor.de>
 <1C59EFA529B743B39FC9FCEFD7786CBF@pc52>
Message-ID: <B5642374-56B9-4DDB-BB38-584069EE26B0@aol.com>

Thank you , important new information
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 1:00 PM, "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> 
> The attached plot is from Dr. Ulrich Rohde (KA2WEU at aol.com)
> "a PDF of a noise plot , AM FM noise, important technical data"
> (he had trouble posting it to the list, so I'm doing it for him)
> 
> R_S_SMA_SIG_GEN_100MHz-02.pdf
> 
> /tvb
> <R_S_SMA_SIG_GEN_100MHz-02.pdf>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Fri Jan 22 16:40:15 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:40:15 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A29489.3060305@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
 <776311A518F6F642962EC561A9184090D72225AC94@THSONEP02CMB01P.one-02-priv.grp>
 <56A264D0.4020008@earthlink.net> <56A29489.3060305@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <56A2A1BF.1050108@earthlink.net>

On 1/22/16 12:43 PM, Artek Manuals wrote:

> OK ...coming back to the original post and see if we can nail down ALL
> the design requirements
>

well, I wasn't really thinking in terms of formal design requirements.. 
(I get more than enough of that at work<grin>)

I was more looking for potential circuits..

But, since you ask...



> You said
>
> "My tiny 100 MHz low noise OCXOs are unexpectedly delayed at the mfr, and
> I'm looking at alternative schemes.
> One is to get 10 or 20 MHz OCXOs (typically in stock) and multiply them
> up. I've got the Wenzel ap notes on 2diode and using HCMOS (and I've
> used the packaged Wenzel multipliers), and I think I have some spare
> board real estate on another board."
>
> So I ask then, what is the real set of design requirements
>
> 1) Space of a few sq CM is the goal
> 2) 5X or 10X  frequency multiplication
> 3) Input and output level (?????????)
the oscillator is a HCMOS output, so figure swinging about 3.5V
Output.. I'm feeding differential clock inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a +/- 
300mV swing would work.

> 4)Title said "Low Noise"  needs better definition as to what kind of
> noise and how far down. Are we to be  concerned about harmonic and spur
> content as compared to real random white noise?

This is time-nuts.. it has to be perfect..

But realistically, my source is probably going to be about -90dBc/Hz at 
1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at 100 Hz.  I'm going up by a factor of 10, so 
I'd expect 20 dB worse plus a little..(nothing is perfect, eh?)

Call it maybe -100 to -95 at 10 Hz, -125 to -120 at 100 Hz and so forth.

harmonics are interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So 
harmonics of the 100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20 are. 
  If you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100, then you get 
weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a software radio where the 50 MHz 
sample clock was contaminated with some 66 MHz from the CPU)

Spurs cause the same issues.

ON the other hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much 
difference if you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise 
floor: the spur multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower and 
down in the noise.  Strong CW in band signals, though, are a real pain.





> 5) Power requirements (0 to 5V  at ?? ma ...or?)

Very low is nice..
the base oscillator is a few hundred mW. I'd say something like a watt 
all told would be acceptable..   But on the other hand, when you get up 
to "watts" and "big" then you might as well just buy another OCXO that 
is at 100 MHz instead of the nifty little tiny ones I was planning to 
use.  (of course, the big OCXOs tend to have +12V power, which I don't 
have..I have unregulated 7.5 to 8V and regulated 5 or 3.3.

It's an interesting tradeoff.

> 6) Stability requirement in PPM?

That's driven by the base oscillator. But in reality, I don't have a 
particularly tight long term frequency requirement.  I have a long term 
frequency knowledge requirement (which can be met by just counting the 
oscillator with the GPS 1pps).



>
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuals.com
>
>


From ab8vj at outlook.com  Fri Jan 22 17:14:36 2016
From: ab8vj at outlook.com (Mathew Breton)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 17:14:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
Message-ID: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>

I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems, probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer, as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
Regards,
Mat Breton 		 	   		  

From jim77742 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 21:21:14 2016
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 13:21:14 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CALH-g5bMBZY-d29BW2zpsqs0FPkotgQ5nOxfjYB=vZmChp69LA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mathew,

As someone who just lost their stop channel, I'm extremely interested in
this project!

Jim Palfreyman


On 23 January 2016 at 09:14, Mathew Breton <ab8vj at outlook.com> wrote:

> I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
> probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
> of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
> 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an
> open-source drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original
> IC designer, as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal
> common-mode range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items
> (like the E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
> would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
> detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
> In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few
> rise-time dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4
> PCB set (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
> Regards,
> Mat Breton
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sat Jan 23 01:23:43 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 06:23:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <2092258296.78325.1453530223538.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Mat 

I can help out with a few design ideas and check your calculations.I only have a 5370A so I probably cant help with dispersion measurements. 

I'm tempted to replace the power hungry 5370A with something with a power consumption of under 10W and noise (jitter) at least 5x smaller.

Bruce 

    On Saturday, 23 January 2016 3:12 PM, Mathew Breton <ab8vj at outlook.com> wrote:
 

 I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems, probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer, as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
Regards,
Mat Breton                         
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From dk4xp at arcor.de  Sat Jan 23 06:44:40 2016
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 12:44:40 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A2A1BF.1050108@earthlink.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A0F67B.8010900@comcast.net>
 <776311A518F6F642962EC561A9184090D72225AC94@THSONEP02CMB01P.one-02-priv.grp>
 <56A264D0.4020008@earthlink.net> <56A29489.3060305@ArtekManuals.com>
 <56A2A1BF.1050108@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56A367A8.1020101@arcor.de>

Am 22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
> the oscillator is a HCMOS output, so figure swinging about 3.5V
> Output.. I'm feeding differential clock inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a 
> +/- 300mV swing would work.
>
>> 4)Title said "Low Noise"  needs better definition as to what kind of
>> noise and how far down. Are we to be  concerned about harmonic and spur
>> content as compared to real random white noise?
>
> This is time-nuts.. it has to be perfect..
>
> But realistically, my source is probably going to be about -90dBc/Hz 
> at 1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at 100 Hz.  I'm going up by a factor of 
> 10, so I'd expect 20 dB worse plus a little..(nothing is perfect, eh?)
>
> Call it maybe -100 to -95 at 10 Hz, -125 to -120 at 100 Hz and so forth.
>
> harmonics are interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So 
> harmonics of the 100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20 
> are.  If you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100, then 
> you get weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a software radio where 
> the 50 MHz sample clock was contaminated with some 66 MHz from the CPU)
>
> Spurs cause the same issues.
>
> ON the other hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much 
> difference if you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise 
> floor: the spur multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower and 
> down in the noise.  Strong CW in band signals, though, are a real pain.
>
>
< 
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#6079270188048833778 
 >

I think that top left board would not be far away:

in : 10 MHz LVDS or CMOS
in:  3V3
out: 100 MHz CMOS 3V3

just a few hours wall clock time from layout to working as a
ham radio weekender, so please excuse my diy home board
production process.

Ok, the use of a 4046 descendant may not be the last word
from a timenut perspective, but I'll redo it with an osc of
my own anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163 (161?) + lvc04.


< http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf >

Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape and  441 of a similar one , even
cheaper that seems to point to the same data sheet.

< 
http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128 
 >
You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your reference.

In the picture:
The bottom row of boards is a doubler 100->200 MHz using 2*BF862, slight 
gain,
and diode doubler 200 -> 400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of 
100/200/300/500/600 +/-10  etc,
post amp to get a usable level again.

Still missing  400-> 800, 800->1600 to feed  _my_ ADC clock input.

regards, Gerhard


From attila at kinali.ch  Sat Jan 23 14:42:11 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 20:42:11 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <1C59EFA529B743B39FC9FCEFD7786CBF@pc52>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A15D60.9020108@arcor.de>
 <1C59EFA529B743B39FC9FCEFD7786CBF@pc52>
Message-ID: <20160123204211.993d4c836a224aa4b9f79e5c@kinali.ch>

Moin Ulrich,

On Fri, 22 Jan 2016 10:00:58 -0800
"Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:

> The attached plot is from Dr. Ulrich Rohde (KA2WEU at aol.com)
> "a PDF of a noise plot , AM FM noise, important technical data"
> (he had trouble posting it to the list, so I'm doing it for him)
> 
> R_S_SMA_SIG_GEN_100MHz-02.pdf

Could you explain what we are looking at here?

			Attila Kinali


-- 
Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
		-- unknown

From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Sat Jan 23 02:36:41 2016
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 02:36:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Navsymm Proteus GPS CDU Software
Message-ID: <f3545.36ac948.43d48789@aol.com>

Hi Thomas,
 
If you haven't already seen them I made a couple of posts regarding this  
unit last November in response to a similar question, and these might help  
with running the software etc.
 
I've uploaded a file containing the manual and software to Mega.nz  ......
   
https://mega.nz/#!eVggzQDD!BD76z_UMLGtjhJmvO-APeW-A7bMIVEY7oZUI389IEAE
 
A bit of a messy link but they encrypt all downloads as a  matter of course 
and that includes the key, any problems please let me know and  I can send 
it direct but decided to post it here in case others are  interested.
 
If someone could upload this to Didier's manual site  that would be 
appreciated, I've had a few problems again recently with attempted  uploads from 
here.
 
Regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

 
Hello Time-Nuts,
I have recently come into possession of a Navsymm  Proteus GPS Time and 
Frequency Generator. Also known under Navstar Systems.  There have been various 
postings about this piece of kit, in some of which there  was a mention of 
the CDU software which allows to configure it.
The thing  powers up but does not lock on. The manual says this could be 
the case if it was  moved since last locked and it may need configuring.
To cut a long story  short, does anybody have the CDU software and could it 
be “shared”? It seems to  need an old-style PC but that won’t be a problem 
around here.
I will  meanwhile check if any sense can be made of its outputs, in case 
there is some  hardware problem.
Thanks in advance,
Thomas.

From alan.ambrose at anagram.net  Fri Jan 22 13:22:21 2016
From: alan.ambrose at anagram.net (Alan Ambrose)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:22:21 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <AM4PR05MB15078F29D902CF90E1F9990595C40@AM4PR05MB1507.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com>

Do any of the SiLabs 'low jitter' synthesiser / clock generators / jitter attenuators etc help?

Alan

From brendan_giles at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 23 13:05:58 2016
From: brendan_giles at hotmail.com (Brendan Giles)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 18:05:58 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Navsymm Proteus GPS CDU Software (Brendan Giles)
Message-ID: <DUB118-W5C864FF664B1C6A5944BA94C50@phx.gbl>







I was the project manager for this piece of equipment. I have a copy of the CDU program. I have recently run it on a Windows 10 system. Let me know where to send you a copy. 
Brendan

 		 	   		  

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sat Jan 23 19:47:34 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 19:47:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <2092258296.78325.1453530223538.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
 <2092258296.78325.1453530223538.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAj50crCv3cOmWoBerMZ=2n-yZk=SmSeauBpS1JOSkTy_g@mail.gmail.com>

I have 5370s and 5345 working and then those that aren't so interested. I
did play with some ecl chips but they worked poorly. Can't do any clever
math or dispersion...
But good with a soldering iron.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 1:23 AM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz
> wrote:

> Mat
>
> I can help out with a few design ideas and check your calculations.I only
> have a 5370A so I probably cant help with dispersion measurements.
>
> I'm tempted to replace the power hungry 5370A with something with a power
> consumption of under 10W and noise (jitter) at least 5x smaller.
>
> Bruce
>
>     On Saturday, 23 January 2016 3:12 PM, Mathew Breton <ab8vj at outlook.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>  I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
> probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
> of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
> 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an
> open-source drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original
> IC designer, as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal
> common-mode range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items
> (like the E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
> would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
> detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
> In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few
> rise-time dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4
> PCB set (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
> Regards,
> Mat Breton
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From aifesteves at gmail.com  Fri Jan 22 14:25:16 2016
From: aifesteves at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9_Esteves?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2016 19:25:16 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] New NASA atomic clock for deep space probes
Message-ID: <CAA2p8qK12aAdoryz9jcjYWSVAJDwQrEDh9mqW=tYxFFsSmecQQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://gizmodo.com/how-will-a-new-clock-keep-good-time-even-in-deep-space-1751040642

From chris at chriscaudle.org  Sat Jan 23 15:59:46 2016
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2016 14:59:46 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Pendulum clocks based on John Harrison's writing
In-Reply-To: <D014861546BB43CDA74CE25D776BF516@pc52>
References: <20160120030634.GA6133@panix.com>
 <D014861546BB43CDA74CE25D776BF516@pc52>
Message-ID: <b7d6f2efec9dbf4f03d41fac4e834efb.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

On Wed, January 20, 2016 12:06 am, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> For more information on Clock B see:
> http://leapsecond.com/pend/clockb/
> Under "technical links" you'll see a copy of my presentation at the
> Harrison conference last year in Greenwich, with all the charts, graphs,
> and ADEV plots a time nut could wish for...

I like that concept of "P" in the "Pendulum Accuracy, part 1" paper.  I
had not seen it described like that before.

Is it accurate to think of P as related to the instantaneous variation in
Q?  In the paper it was notated as deltaE/sigmaE, but isn't that also
deltaE/delta(deltaE) ?  Kind of like the second derivative of energy flow
in the system.

-- 
Chris Caudle



From cadbloke at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 21 07:08:56 2016
From: cadbloke at hotmail.com (gonzo .)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 12:08:56 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FE-5680A Breakout board
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2440.1450562413.24750.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.2440.1450562413.24750.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <SY3PR01MB05379E8AA307792B79C39B85C6C30@SY3PR01MB0537.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com>

Hi John,
apologies for the delay.
The instructions were a 'work in progress' as I was sending out the kits, so sent PDFs instead of printed docs.
I've emailed you direct a copy of the latest version which is somewhat newer than the copy posted here.
If any one else is still to build their kit, just ask and I'll send the updated file.

73
ian

Hi Ian --

Happy holidays!

A few years ago I got some of the breakout board kits you did for the
FE-5680A.  They've finally risen to the top of my "to assemble pile." :-)

Looking for the schematic and any assembly info you might have available
-- I only have the boards and parts but can't find the docs.

Thanks and 73,
John

From dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com  Sun Jan 24 08:34:02 2016
From: dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com (Dale Cannon)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 08:34:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8DC6A74EA3FE4943BE4E584DC41B60D3@carmenspc>

Funny,

A friend asked me if I could replicate the front end for a 5370A, a many
years back. I related to him that replicating the input chip was not a
trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct testing
of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had obviously been
overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time, I had considered replicating
the front-end probe circuit of a K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
followed by an ECL 10216 line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or dead
bug modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just couldn't cut
up the HP front end and told him to search for a more qualified repair
facility.

BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.

		Dale Cannon  KS4FA


-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mathew
Breton
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort

I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
5088-706x hybrid ICs.
This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source
drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time
dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
(my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
Regards,
Mat Breton 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420 - Release Date: 01/17/16


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Sun Jan 24 08:44:09 2016
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 05:44:09 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Pendulum clocks based on John Harrison's writing
References: <20160120030634.GA6133@panix.com>
 <D014861546BB43CDA74CE25D776BF516@pc52>
 <b7d6f2efec9dbf4f03d41fac4e834efb.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <BBDA7BB5853D4C0193C161A26CA35B6D@pc52>

Hi Chris,

> I like that concept of "P" in the "Pendulum Accuracy, part 1" paper.  I
> had not seen it described like that before.

Right. Over the past couple of decades the role of Q in pendulum clocks sometimes became more confusing or divisive than helpful. So I introduced the P (purity) variable to compliment Q (quality). That enabled Q to be static and pushed the measure of subtle variations into another variable, P. Part 1 of the paper is here:

http://leapsecond.com/hsn2006/pendulum-accuracy-1.pdf

> Is it accurate to think of P as related to the instantaneous variation in
> Q?  In the paper it was notated as deltaE/sigmaE, but isn't that also
> deltaE/delta(deltaE) ?  Kind of like the second derivative of energy flow
> in the system.
> 
> -- 
> Chris Caudle

I would not want to go with "instantaneous variation in Q", as if Q itself was the root source of clock instability. I think that overloads the notion of Q too much and contributes to the confusion about the definition or role of Q (quality).

P (purity) fills a similar role as S/N in atomic clock stability prediction equations. That is, the short-term stability is a combination of *both* Q and S/N. Long-term stability goes down at sqrt(tau), subject to environmental effects.

My delta and sigma notation is a bit muddy so I'm not clear if delta(delta(x)) is helpful. It's clearer if you use RMS or ADEV(tau) statistics but for that audience I wanted to keep it simple.

The basic idea is there is a store of energy, and there is energy flow during each swing in a pendulum. The key to stability is not so much the total energy, nor the amount of energy gain and loss, but in the consistency of gain and loss. You'll recognize that we do the same thing with ADEV; it's not the phase, nor the rate, but variations in rate that are a measure of stability.

You have to be careful with your "second derivative of energy flow" wording because the word "flow" already implies a derivative. I think you could say 2nd derivative of energy or 1st derivative of energy flow, though.

This is getting OT, so follow-up off-list.

Thanks,
/tvb


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 24 09:15:45 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 09:15:45 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <8DC6A74EA3FE4943BE4E584DC41B60D3@carmenspc>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
 <8DC6A74EA3FE4943BE4E584DC41B60D3@carmenspc>
Message-ID: <35594E87-E83D-4F51-85D3-85CACD6F2AEA@n1k.org>

Hi

Back when these counters (5345, 5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs were
the weak link on all of them. There were known “don’t do that” things on the line
that would blow out each of them. Regardless of the level of care and yelling, inputs
blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the counters went back
for repair over a 5 year period. It was always a “swap out the entire board” sort
of repair and never was under $1K. We regularly spent the price of a new counter
each year on repairs. If there had been an easy way to fix them,  (or even to just
pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.

Bob

> On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Dale Cannon <dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> Funny,
> 
> A friend asked me if I could replicate the front end for a 5370A, a many
> years back. I related to him that replicating the input chip was not a
> trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct testing
> of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had obviously been
> overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time, I had considered replicating
> the front-end probe circuit of a K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
> followed by an ECL 10216 line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or dead
> bug modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just couldn't cut
> up the HP front end and told him to search for a more qualified repair
> facility.
> 
> BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
> 
> 		Dale Cannon  KS4FA
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mathew
> Breton
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
> 
> I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
> probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
> of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
> 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source
> drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
> as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
> range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
> E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
> would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
> detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
> In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time
> dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
> (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
> Regards,
> Mat Breton 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420 - Release Date: 01/17/16
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From EWKehren at aol.com  Sun Jan 24 15:58:43 2016
From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 15:58:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <72f962.71e488e.43d69503@aol.com>

With all the discussions in a small 100 MHz source I asked my project  
partner Juerg in Switzerland to run some data on the ICS 570 that we use on the  
majority of our projects with excellent results. Using the HP53132A we see 
+ - 1  count at E10-11 ignore the large jumps those come from the Tbolt 
frequency  change to correct the 1 pps. Depending on the application this is an 
excellent  device.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 1/23/2016 6:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dk4xp at arcor.de writes:

Am  22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
> the oscillator is a HCMOS output,  so figure swinging about 3.5V
> Output.. I'm feeding differential clock  inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a 
> +/- 300mV swing would  work.
>
>> 4)Title said "Low Noise"  needs better  definition as to what kind of
>> noise and how far down. Are we to  be  concerned about harmonic and spur
>> content as compared to  real random white noise?
>
> This is time-nuts.. it has to be  perfect..
>
> But realistically, my source is probably going to be  about -90dBc/Hz 
> at 1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at 100 Hz.  I'm  going up by a factor of 
> 10, so I'd expect 20 dB worse plus a  little..(nothing is perfect, eh?)
>
> Call it maybe -100 to -95 at  10 Hz, -125 to -120 at 100 Hz and so forth.
>
> harmonics are  interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So 
> harmonics of the  100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20 
> are.  If  you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100, then 
> you get  weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a software radio where 
> the  50 MHz sample clock was contaminated with some 66 MHz from the  CPU)
>
> Spurs cause the same issues.
>
> ON the other  hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much 
> difference if  you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise 
> floor: the spur  multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower and 
> down in the  noise.  Strong CW in band signals, though, are a real  pain.
>
>
<  
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#607927018804883377
8  
>

I think that top left board would not be far away:

in :  10 MHz LVDS or CMOS
in:  3V3
out: 100 MHz CMOS 3V3

just a  few hours wall clock time from layout to working as a
ham radio weekender,  so please excuse my diy home board
production process.

Ok, the use  of a 4046 descendant may not be the last word
from a timenut perspective,  but I'll redo it with an osc of
my own anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163  (161?) + lvc04.


<  http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf  >

Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape and  441 of a similar one  , even
cheaper that seems to point to the same data sheet.

<  
http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128
  
>
You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your  reference.

In the picture:
The bottom row of boards is a doubler  100->200 MHz using 2*BF862, slight 
gain,
and diode doubler 200 ->  400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of 
100/200/300/500/600 +/-10   etc,
post amp to get a usable level again.

Still missing   400-> 800, 800->1600 to feed  _my_ ADC clock input.

regards,  Gerhard

_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.

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From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sun Jan 24 17:12:42 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 22:12:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <72f962.71e488e.43d69503@aol.com>
References: <72f962.71e488e.43d69503@aol.com>
Message-ID: <835261664.631928.1453673562468.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Unfortunately the ICS570 (like all zero delay buffers) has an output jitter approaching about 1000 times the likely RF ADC internal sampling jitter. The resultant SNR degradation may be a little excessive for this application..
Bruce
  

    On Monday, 25 January 2016 11:00 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
 

 With all the discussions in a small 100 MHz source I asked my project  
partner Juerg in Switzerland to run some data on the ICS 570 that we use on the  
majority of our projects with excellent results. Using the HP53132A we see 
+ - 1  count at E10-11 ignore the large jumps those come from the Tbolt 
frequency  change to correct the 1 pps. Depending on the application this is an 
excellent  device.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 1/23/2016 6:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dk4xp at arcor.de writes:

Am  22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
> the oscillator is a HCMOS output,  so figure swinging about 3.5V
> Output.. I'm feeding differential clock  inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a 
> +/- 300mV swing would  work.
>
>> 4)Title said "Low Noise"  needs better  definition as to what kind of
>> noise and how far down. Are we to  be  concerned about harmonic and spur
>> content as compared to  real random white noise?
>
> This is time-nuts.. it has to be  perfect..
>
> But realistically, my source is probably going to be  about -90dBc/Hz 
> at 1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at 100 Hz.  I'm  going up by a factor of 
> 10, so I'd expect 20 dB worse plus a  little..(nothing is perfect, eh?)
>
> Call it maybe -100 to -95 at  10 Hz, -125 to -120 at 100 Hz and so forth.
>
> harmonics are  interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So 
> harmonics of the  100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20 
> are.  If  you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100, then 
> you get  weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a software radio where 
> the  50 MHz sample clock was contaminated with some 66 MHz from the  CPU)
>
> Spurs cause the same issues.
>
> ON the other  hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much 
> difference if  you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise 
> floor: the spur  multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower and 
> down in the  noise.  Strong CW in band signals, though, are a real  pain.
>
>
<  
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#607927018804883377
8  
>

I think that top left board would not be far away:

in :  10 MHz LVDS or CMOS
in:  3V3
out: 100 MHz CMOS 3V3

just a  few hours wall clock time from layout to working as a
ham radio weekender,  so please excuse my diy home board
production process.

Ok, the use  of a 4046 descendant may not be the last word
from a timenut perspective,  but I'll redo it with an osc of
my own anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163  (161?) + lvc04.


<  http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf  >

Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape and  441 of a similar one  , even
cheaper that seems to point to the same data sheet.

<  
http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128
  
>
You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your  reference.

In the picture:
The bottom row of boards is a doubler  100->200 MHz using 2*BF862, slight 
gain,
and diode doubler 200 ->  400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of 
100/200/300/500/600 +/-10  etc,
post amp to get a usable level again.

Still missing  400-> 800, 800->1600 to feed  _my_ ADC clock input..

regards,  Gerhard

_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.


_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

  

From dimitri at dotp.com  Sun Jan 24 18:02:31 2016
From: dimitri at dotp.com (Dimitri.p)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 15:02:31 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <35594E87-E83D-4F51-85D3-85CACD6F2AEA@n1k.org>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
 <8DC6A74EA3FE4943BE4E584DC41B60D3@carmenspc>
 <35594E87-E83D-4F51-85D3-85CACD6F2AEA@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <F8.86.04223.80855A65@cdptpa-oedge01>

Someday , someone will get bored with everything 
else and give it a try, you know, in their spare time.
The time when these counter were new was a long while ago.
Back then an amplifier chip with 500MHZ BW was a 
much bigger deal than it is in 2016.
...but spare time is permanently on backorder .... :)

Dimitri

At 06:15 AM 1/24/2016, Bob Camp wrote:
>Hi
>
>Back when these counters (5345, 5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs were
>the weak link on all of them. There were known 
>“don’t do that” things on the line
>that would blow out each of them. Regardless of 
>the level of care and yelling, inputs
>blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the counters went back
>for repair over a 5 year period. It was always a 
>“swap out the entire board” sort
>of repair and never was under $1K. We regularly 
>spent the price of a new counter
>each year on repairs. If there had been an easy 
>way to fix them,  (or even to just
>pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.
>
>Bob
>
> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Dale Cannon <dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> > Funny,
> >
> > A friend asked me if I could replicate the front end for a 5370A, a many
> > years back. I related to him that replicating the input chip was not a
> > trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct testing
> > of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had obviously been
> > overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time, I had considered replicating
> > the front-end probe circuit of a K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
> > followed by an ECL 10216 line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or dead
> > bug modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just couldn't cut
> > up the HP front end and told him to search for a more qualified repair
> > facility.
> >
> > BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
> >
> >               Dale Cannon  KS4FA
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mathew
> > Breton
> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
> > To: time-nuts at febo.com
> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
> >
> > I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
> > probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
> > of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
> > 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> > This sounds like a common problem. As a 
> result, I'm designing an open-source
> > drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
> > as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
> > range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
> > E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> > I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
> > would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
> > detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
> > In addition, it would be really helpful if 
> someone could run a few rise-time
> > dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
> > (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
> > Regards,
> > Mat Breton
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > -----
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420 - Release Date: 01/17/16
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 24 21:35:47 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 2016 21:35:47 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <F8.86.04223.80855A65@cdptpa-oedge01>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
 <8DC6A74EA3FE4943BE4E584DC41B60D3@carmenspc>
 <35594E87-E83D-4F51-85D3-85CACD6F2AEA@n1k.org>
 <F8.86.04223.80855A65@cdptpa-oedge01>
Message-ID: <92EAA018-6506-4E19-95B2-2C2AB99D6503@n1k.org>

Hi

Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than a bit of time to 
replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the most likely way to “fix”
the problem. The question is - why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same
thing as the counter with way less effort…..

Bob


> On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:02 PM, Dimitri.p <dimitri at dotp.com> wrote:
> 
> Someday , someone will get bored with everything else and give it a try, you know, in their spare time.
> The time when these counter were new was a long while ago.
> Back then an amplifier chip with 500MHZ BW was a much bigger deal than it is in 2016.
> ...but spare time is permanently on backorder .... :)
> 
> Dimitri
> 
> At 06:15 AM 1/24/2016, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Back when these counters (5345, 5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs were
>> the weak link on all of them. There were known “don’t do that” things on the line
>> that would blow out each of them. Regardless of the level of care and yelling, inputs
>> blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the counters went back
>> for repair over a 5 year period. It was always a “swap out the entire board” sort
>> of repair and never was under $1K. We regularly spent the price of a new counter
>> each year on repairs. If there had been an easy way to fix them,  (or even to just
>> pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Dale Cannon <dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Funny,
>> >
>> > A friend asked me if I could replicate the front end for a 5370A, a many
>> > years back. I related to him that replicating the input chip was not a
>> > trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct testing
>> > of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had obviously been
>> > overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time, I had considered replicating
>> > the front-end probe circuit of a K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
>> > followed by an ECL 10216 line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or dead
>> > bug modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just couldn't cut
>> > up the HP front end and told him to search for a more qualified repair
>> > facility.
>> >
>> > BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
>> >
>> >               Dale Cannon  KS4FA
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mathew
>> > Breton
>> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
>> > To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
>> >
>> > I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
>> > probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
>> > of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
>> > 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
>> > This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source
>> > drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
>> > as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
>> > range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
>> > E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
>> > I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
>> > would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
>> > detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
>> > In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time
>> > dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
>> > (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
>> > Regards,
>> > Mat Breton
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> > -----
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420 - Release Date: 01/17/16
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Mon Jan 25 01:36:18 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 06:36:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <92EAA018-6506-4E19-95B2-2C2AB99D6503@n1k.org>
References: <92EAA018-6506-4E19-95B2-2C2AB99D6503@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <413967398.746233.1453703778627.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

I've been considering this for some time.The key is the replacement for the triggered phase locked oscillator based interpolators.
FPGA based TDCs aren't yet quite good enough.
Off the shelf TDC chips are a little better but still fall a little short in performance.

Whilst a TAC approach can achieve around 4ps or so (eg various Wavecrest instruments) a lot of discrete parts are  likely to be required.

My crude testing of a triggered damped sinewave generator sampled by an RF ADC indicates that an event time stamp noise of 5ps or better appears feasible. 

The technique of exciting a high Q saw bandpass filter with an impulse and digitising  the output is probably more expensive and complex than desirable.

Bruce
 

    On Monday, 25 January 2016 6:04 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
 

 Hi

Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than a bit of time to 
replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the most likely way to “fix”
the problem. The question is - why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same
thing as the counter with way less effort…..

Bob


> On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:02 PM, Dimitri.p <dimitri at dotp.com> wrote:
> 
> Someday , someone will get bored with everything else and give it a try, you know, in their spare time.
> The time when these counter were new was a long while ago.
> Back then an amplifier chip with 500MHZ BW was a much bigger deal than it is in 2016.
> ...but spare time is permanently on backorder .... :)
> 
> Dimitri
> 
> At 06:15 AM 1/24/2016, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Back when these counters (5345, 5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs were
>> the weak link on all of them. There were known âdonât do thatâ things on the line
>> that would blow out each of them. Regardless of the level of care and yelling, inputs
>> blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the counters went back
>> for repair over a 5 year period. It was always a âswap out the entire boardâ sort
>> of repair and never was under $1K. We regularly spent the price of a new counter
>> each year on repairs. If there had been an easy way to fix them,  (or even to just
>> pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM, Dale Cannon <dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Funny,
>> >
>> > A friend asked me if I could replicate the front end for a 5370A, a many
>> > years back. I related to him that replicating the input chip was not a
>> > trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct testing
>> > of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had obviously been
>> > overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time, I had considered replicating
>> > the front-end probe circuit of a K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
>> > followed by an ECL 10216 line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or dead
>> > bug modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just couldn't cut
>> > up the HP front end and told him to search for a more qualified repair
>> > facility.
>> >
>> > BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
>> >
>> >              Dale Cannon  KS4FA
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mathew
>> > Breton
>> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
>> > To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
>> >
>> > I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
>> > probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
>> > of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
>> > 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
>> > This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source
>> > drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
>> > as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
>> > range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
>> > E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
>> > I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
>> > would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
>> > detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
>> > In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time
>> > dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
>> > (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
>> > Regards,
>> > Mat Breton
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> > -----
>> > No virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420 - Release Date: 01/17/16
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Mon Jan 25 03:09:18 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 09:09:18 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <835261664.631928.1453673562468.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <72f962.71e488e.43d69503@aol.com>
 <835261664.631928.1453673562468.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56A5D82E.4030308@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Also, it will be systematic, with idle tones. Because of the delay 
elements used, they will not be long-term static but move around.

I agree, this is quite noisy. If the noise is tolerable, it is indeed a 
small solution. 100 ps 1-sigma for 5 MHz in 100 MHz out isn't what I 
would consider low.

https://www.idt.com/document/dst/570-datasheet

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/24/2016 11:12 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> Unfortunately the ICS570 (like all zero delay buffers) has an output jitter approaching about 1000 times the likely RF ADC internal sampling jitter. The resultant SNR degradation may be a little excessive for this application..
> Bruce
>
>
>      On Monday, 25 January 2016 11:00 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>
>
>   With all the discussions in a small 100 MHz source I asked my project
> partner Juerg in Switzerland to run some data on the ICS 570 that we use on the
> majority of our projects with excellent results. Using the HP53132A we see
> + - 1  count at E10-11 ignore the large jumps those come from the Tbolt
> frequency  change to correct the 1 pps. Depending on the application this is an
> excellent  device.
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 1/23/2016 6:02:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> dk4xp at arcor.de writes:
>
> Am  22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
>> the oscillator is a HCMOS output,  so figure swinging about 3.5V
>> Output.. I'm feeding differential clock  inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a
>> +/- 300mV swing would  work.
>>
>>> 4)Title said "Low Noise"  needs better  definition as to what kind of
>>> noise and how far down. Are we to  be  concerned about harmonic and spur
>>> content as compared to  real random white noise?
>>
>> This is time-nuts.. it has to be  perfect..
>>
>> But realistically, my source is probably going to be  about -90dBc/Hz
>> at 1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at 100 Hz.  I'm  going up by a factor of
>> 10, so I'd expect 20 dB worse plus a  little..(nothing is perfect, eh?)
>>
>> Call it maybe -100 to -95 at  10 Hz, -125 to -120 at 100 Hz and so forth.
>>
>> harmonics are  interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So
>> harmonics of the  100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20
>> are.  If  you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100, then
>> you get  weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a software radio where
>> the  50 MHz sample clock was contaminated with some 66 MHz from the  CPU)
>>
>> Spurs cause the same issues.
>>
>> ON the other  hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much
>> difference if  you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise
>> floor: the spur  multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower and
>> down in the  noise.  Strong CW in band signals, though, are a real  pain.
>>
>>
> <
> https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#607927018804883377
> 8
>>
>
> I think that top left board would not be far away:
>
> in :  10 MHz LVDS or CMOS
> in:  3V3
> out: 100 MHz CMOS 3V3
>
> just a  few hours wall clock time from layout to working as a
> ham radio weekender,  so please excuse my diy home board
> production process.
>
> Ok, the use  of a 4046 descendant may not be the last word
> from a timenut perspective,  but I'll redo it with an osc of
> my own anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163  (161?) + lvc04.
>
>
> <  http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf  >
>
> Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape and  441 of a similar one  , even
> cheaper that seems to point to the same data sheet.
>
> <
> http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128
>
>>
> You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your  reference.
>
> In the picture:
> The bottom row of boards is a doubler  100->200 MHz using 2*BF862, slight
> gain,
> and diode doubler 200 ->  400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of
> 100/200/300/500/600 +/-10  etc,
> post amp to get a usable level again.
>
> Still missing  400-> 800, 800->1600 to feed  _my_ ADC clock input..
>
> regards,  Gerhard
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From iw2lje at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 06:32:29 2016
From: iw2lje at gmail.com (Luca Dal Passo)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 12:32:29 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Schlumberger FA2527 ocxo
Message-ID: <CAK2g+g1J0LVYWny47Og9vRNwrpv6CZaKfMU36F2oHBPYbMNYKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi group,
     Does anyone know something about the Schlumberger type FA2527 5MHz
OCXO?
It seems to be a good unit, with mumetal shield, coarse and fine frequency
adj multiturn pots, fine temperature trimmer, good voltage regulator, good
assembly and internal cylindrical thermal chamber surronded by a wire
resistence (double oven?).
It was used in Schlumberger electronic counters in the seventies or
eighties as a high stability option.
I'm trying to understand pin out and supply voltage, but I wish to know
some more information about functions of pins, and specifications.
Nothing found on the net.....
Thank you in advance!
Luca
iw2lje
Milano

From xavier.bestel at free.fr  Mon Jan 25 08:55:20 2016
From: xavier.bestel at free.fr (Xavier Bestel)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 14:55:20 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source - finetuned
	start
In-Reply-To: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
Message-ID: <1453730120.18280.40.camel@free.fr>

Hi Guys,

Le mercredi 13 janvier 2016 à 09:22 +0000, Jerome Blaha a écrit :
> Hey Guys,
> 
> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1
> PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and
> repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz
> oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS
> output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
> 
> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent
> PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter,
> assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this
> resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within
> 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the
> integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every
> 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
> 
> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a
> sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?

What would it take to make that PPS adjustable with a step <= 1ns ?
I see that the PIC solution has a mean of "arming" the 1PPS to let it
start at the desired time, but the granularity would be of course
10MHz. For example are there easy-to-use programmable delays to reach
the missing precision ?

	Xav

From EWKehren at aol.com  Mon Jan 25 10:22:11 2016
From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:22:11 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <f2e25.58e8e964.43d797a2@aol.com>

If not good enough an XOR with filter and one of the Crystek VCXO's  
previously mentioned may do it.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org writes:

Also, it  will be systematic, with idle tones. Because of the delay 
elements used,  they will not be long-term static but move around.

I agree, this is  quite noisy. If the noise is tolerable, it is indeed a 
small solution. 100  ps 1-sigma for 5 MHz in 100 MHz out isn't what I 
would consider  low.

https://www.idt.com/document/dst/570-datasheet

Cheers,
Magnus

On  01/24/2016 11:12 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> Unfortunately the ICS570  (like all zero delay buffers) has an output 
jitter approaching about 1000  times the likely RF ADC internal sampling 
jitter. The resultant SNR  degradation may be a little excessive for this 
application..
>  Bruce
>
>
>      On Monday, 25 January 2016  11:00 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts 
<time-nuts at febo.com>  wrote:
>
>
>   With all the discussions in a small  100 MHz source I asked my project
> partner Juerg in Switzerland to run  some data on the ICS 570 that we use 
on the
> majority of our projects  with excellent results. Using the HP53132A we 
see

> + - 1   count at E10-11 ignore the large jumps those come from the Tbolt
>  frequency  change to correct the 1 pps. Depending on the application 
this  is an
> excellent  device.
> Bert  Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 1/23/2016 6:02:23 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
> dk4xp at arcor.de writes:
>
> Am   22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
>> the oscillator is a HCMOS  output,  so figure swinging about 3.5V
>> Output.. I'm feeding  differential clock  inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a
>> +/-  300mV swing would  work.
>>
>>> 4)Title said "Low  Noise"  needs better  definition as to what kind of
>>>  noise and how far down. Are we to  be  concerned about harmonic and  
spur
>>> content as compared to  real random white  noise?
>>
>> This is time-nuts.. it has to be   perfect..
>>
>> But realistically, my source is probably  going to be  about -90dBc/Hz
>> at 1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at  100 Hz.  I'm  going up by a factor of
>> 10, so I'd expect  20 dB worse plus a  little..(nothing is perfect,  eh?)
>>
>> Call it maybe -100 to -95 at  10 Hz, -125 to  -120 at 100 Hz and so 
forth.
>>
>> harmonics are   interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So
>> harmonics of  the  100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20
>>  are.  If  you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100,  then
>> you get  weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a  software radio where
>> the  50 MHz sample clock was  contaminated with some 66 MHz from the  
CPU)
>>
>>  Spurs cause the same issues.
>>
>> ON the other   hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much
>> difference  if  you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise
>>  floor: the spur  multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower  and
>> down in the  noise.  Strong CW in band signals,  though, are a real  
pain.
>>
>>
> <
>  
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#607927018804883377
>  8
>>
>
> I think that top left board would not be far  away:
>
> in :  10 MHz LVDS or CMOS
> in:   3V3
> out: 100 MHz CMOS 3V3
>
> just a  few hours wall  clock time from layout to working as a
> ham radio weekender,  so  please excuse my diy home board
> production process.
>
>  Ok, the use  of a 4046 descendant may not be the last word
> from a  timenut perspective,  but I'll redo it with an osc of
> my own  anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163  (161?) +  lvc04.
>
>
> <   http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf   >
>
> Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape and  441 of a  similar one  , even
> cheaper that seems to point to the same data  sheet.
>
> <
>  
http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128
>
>>
>  You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your   
reference.
>
> In the picture:
> The bottom row of boards is  a doubler  100->200 MHz using 2*BF862, slight
> gain,
>  and diode doubler 200 ->  400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of
>  100/200/300/500/600 +/-10  etc,
> post amp to get a usable level  again.
>
> Still missing  400-> 800, 800->1600 to  feed  _my_ ADC clock input..
>
> regards,   Gerhard
>
>  _______________________________________________
> time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
>  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow  the  instructions there.
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to  
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> and follow the  instructions there.
>
>
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From EWKehren at aol.com  Mon Jan 25 10:32:10 2016
From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 10:32:10 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
Message-ID: <f3c8e.b1bd8a8.43d799fa@aol.com>

Getting back to the original question, years ago I was told but could not  
confirm that HP was buying up 5345's because of a Government commitment to  
replace front ends. If they had to go to such matters I doubt we will be 
able to  find a solution. 
In my home counter work I tried but ended up using boards out of  5345's
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes:

I've  been considering this for some time.The key is the replacement for 
the  triggered phase locked oscillator based interpolators.
FPGA based TDCs  aren't yet quite good enough.
Off the shelf TDC chips are a little better  but still fall a little short 
in performance.

Whilst a TAC approach can  achieve around 4ps or so (eg various Wavecrest 
instruments) a lot of discrete  parts are  likely to be required.

My crude testing of a triggered  damped sinewave generator sampled by an RF 
ADC indicates that an event time  stamp noise of 5ps or better appears 
feasible. 

The technique of  exciting a high Q saw bandpass filter with an impulse and 
digitising  the  output is probably more expensive and complex than  
desirable.

Bruce


On Monday, 25 January 2016  6:04 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:


Hi

Since the  front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than 
a bit of time  to 
replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the  most 
likely way to “fix”
the problem. The question is - why do that at all?  Just do a PC instrument 
that does the same
thing as the counter with way  less effort…..

Bob


> On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:02 PM,  Dimitri.p <dimitri at dotp.com> wrote:
> 
> Someday , someone  will get bored with everything else and give it a try, 
you know, in their  spare time.
> The time when these counter were new was a long while  ago.
> Back then an amplifier chip with 500MHZ BW was a much bigger deal  than 
it is in 2016.
> ...but spare time is permanently on backorder ....  :)
> 
> Dimitri
> 
> At 06:15 AM 1/24/2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Back when these counters (5345,  5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs 
were
>> the weak link on all of  them. There were known âdonât do thatâ things 
on the line
>> that  would blow out each of them. Regardless of the level of care and 
yelling,  inputs
>> blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the  counters went back
>> for repair over a 5 year period. It was always  a âswap out the entire 
boardâ sort
>> of repair and never was under  $1K. We regularly spent the price of a 
new counter
>> each year on  repairs. If there had been an easy way to fix them,  (or 
even to  just
>> pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.
>>  
>> Bob
>> 
>> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM,  Dale Cannon <dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>> >
>>  > Funny,
>> >
>> > A friend asked me if I could  replicate the front end for a 5370A, a 
many
>> > years back. I  related to him that replicating the input chip was not a
>> >  trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct  
testing
>> > of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had  obviously been
>> > overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time,  I had considered 
replicating
>> > the front-end probe circuit of a  K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
>> > followed by an ECL 10216  line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or 
dead
>> > bug  modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just 
couldn't  cut
>> > up the HP front end and told him to search for a more  qualified repair
>> > facility.
>> >
>> >  BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
>>  >
>> >              Dale  Cannon  KS4FA
>> >
>> >
>> >  -----Original Message-----
>> > From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of 
Mathew
>> >  Breton
>> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
>>  > To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B  & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
>> >
>> > I  was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
>>  > probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with 
a  set
>> > of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a  cheap pair of
>> > 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
>> > This  sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an  
open-source
>> > drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to  the original IC 
designer,
>> > as it is not a trivial effort due  to the wide input signal common-mode
>> > range, and very tight  trigger timing requirements. Other items (like 
the
>> > E-ECL)  output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
>> > I'm hoping  that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on 
it. I
>>  > would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start  the
>> > detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better  ideas.
>> > In addition, it would be really helpful if someone  could run a few 
rise-time
>> > dispersion tests on an instrument  with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB 
set
>> > (my unit obviously  doesn't qualify).
>> > Regards,
>> > Mat  Breton
>> >  _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go  to
>> >  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and  follow the instructions there.
>> > -----
>> > No  virus found in this message.
>> > Checked by AVG -  www.avg.com
>> > Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420  - Release Date: 
01/17/16
>> >
>> >  _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and  follow the instructions there.
>> 
>>  _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow  the instructions there.
> 
>  _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions  there.

_______________________________________________
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From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 11:28:35 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:28:35 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <f3c8e.b1bd8a8.43d799fa@aol.com>
References: <f3c8e.b1bd8a8.43d799fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAgM0uxA_HacnqVyCR=1Nm39YKZD2ZnoZ0=5J92DRj_vNA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello to the group.
Lots to learn. eecl? :-) Heck happy to get ecl working.
That said I did pull the manuals on the 5370 and 5345. They are the same
front end. And really 1 magical chip.

OK now I am going to super over simplify the issue. Forgetting the nice
features, why wouldn't the first step be to simply create a sine to square
wave converter?
But a dead frontend makes the counter useless. So getting a signal past it
is useful even if its not the exact quality of what existed.

Does that simplify at least the first possible answer.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Getting back to the original question, years ago I was told but could not
> confirm that HP was buying up 5345's because of a Government commitment to
> replace front ends. If they had to go to such matters I doubt we will be
> able to  find a solution.
> In my home counter work I tried but ended up using boards out of  5345's
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes:
>
> I've  been considering this for some time.The key is the replacement for
> the  triggered phase locked oscillator based interpolators.
> FPGA based TDCs  aren't yet quite good enough.
> Off the shelf TDC chips are a little better  but still fall a little short
> in performance.
>
> Whilst a TAC approach can  achieve around 4ps or so (eg various Wavecrest
> instruments) a lot of discrete  parts are  likely to be required.
>
> My crude testing of a triggered  damped sinewave generator sampled by an RF
> ADC indicates that an event time  stamp noise of 5ps or better appears
> feasible.
>
> The technique of  exciting a high Q saw bandpass filter with an impulse and
> digitising  the  output is probably more expensive and complex than
> desirable.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On Monday, 25 January 2016  6:04 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> Since the  front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than
> a bit of time  to
> replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the  most
> likely way to “fix”
> the problem. The question is - why do that at all?  Just do a PC instrument
> that does the same
> thing as the counter with way  less effort…..
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:02 PM,  Dimitri.p <dimitri at dotp.com> wrote:
> >
> > Someday , someone  will get bored with everything else and give it a try,
> you know, in their  spare time.
> > The time when these counter were new was a long while  ago.
> > Back then an amplifier chip with 500MHZ BW was a much bigger deal  than
> it is in 2016.
> > ...but spare time is permanently on backorder ....  :)
> >
> > Dimitri
> >
> > At 06:15 AM 1/24/2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Back when these counters (5345,  5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs
> were
> >> the weak link on all of  them. There were known âdonât do thatâ things
> on the line
> >> that  would blow out each of them. Regardless of the level of care and
> yelling,  inputs
> >> blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the  counters went back
> >> for repair over a 5 year period. It was always  a âswap out the entire
> boardâ sort
> >> of repair and never was under  $1K. We regularly spent the price of a
> new counter
> >> each year on  repairs. If there had been an easy way to fix them,  (or
> even to  just
> >> pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM,  Dale Cannon <dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >>  > Funny,
> >> >
> >> > A friend asked me if I could  replicate the front end for a 5370A, a
> many
> >> > years back. I  related to him that replicating the input chip was not
> a
> >> >  trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct
> testing
> >> > of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had  obviously been
> >> > overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time,  I had considered
> replicating
> >> > the front-end probe circuit of a  K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
> >> > followed by an ECL 10216  line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or
> dead
> >> > bug  modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just
> couldn't  cut
> >> > up the HP front end and told him to search for a more  qualified
> repair
> >> > facility.
> >> >
> >> >  BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
> >>  >
> >> >              Dale  Cannon  KS4FA
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
> Mathew
> >> >  Breton
> >> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
> >>  > To: time-nuts at febo.com
> >> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B  & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
> >> >
> >> > I  was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
> >>  > probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with
> a  set
> >> > of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a  cheap pair of
> >> > 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> >> > This  sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an
> open-source
> >> > drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to  the original IC
> designer,
> >> > as it is not a trivial effort due  to the wide input signal
> common-mode
> >> > range, and very tight  trigger timing requirements. Other items (like
> the
> >> > E-ECL)  output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> >> > I'm hoping  that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on
> it. I
> >>  > would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start
> the
> >> > detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better  ideas.
> >> > In addition, it would be really helpful if someone  could run a few
> rise-time
> >> > dispersion tests on an instrument  with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB
> set
> >> > (my unit obviously  doesn't qualify).
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Mat  Breton
> >> >  _______________________________________________
> >> > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go  to
> >> >  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> > and  follow the instructions there.
> >> > -----
> >> > No  virus found in this message.
> >> > Checked by AVG -  www.avg.com
> >> > Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420  - Release Date:
> 01/17/16
> >> >
> >> >  _______________________________________________
> >> > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> > and  follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>  _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow  the instructions there.
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the  instructions  there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 11:33:56 2016
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 16:33:56 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <f3c8e.b1bd8a8.43d799fa@aol.com>
References: <f3c8e.b1bd8a8.43d799fa@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzTwkxnW-BLN7C_bc0Lpj3SkhjhdkWboPqEqyr+1ikS8Tg@mail.gmail.com>

I would imagine it was much less expensive for HP to gut second hand
equipment and re-qualify it than restart a fab or qualify a new design
front end.
On 25 Jan 2016 16:01, "Bert Kehren via time-nuts" <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

> Getting back to the original question, years ago I was told but could not
> confirm that HP was buying up 5345's because of a Government commitment to
> replace front ends. If they had to go to such matters I doubt we will be
> able to  find a solution.
> In my home counter work I tried but ended up using boards out of  5345's
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes:
>
> I've  been considering this for some time.The key is the replacement for
> the  triggered phase locked oscillator based interpolators.
> FPGA based TDCs  aren't yet quite good enough.
> Off the shelf TDC chips are a little better  but still fall a little short
> in performance.
>
> Whilst a TAC approach can  achieve around 4ps or so (eg various Wavecrest
> instruments) a lot of discrete  parts are  likely to be required.
>
> My crude testing of a triggered  damped sinewave generator sampled by an RF
> ADC indicates that an event time  stamp noise of 5ps or better appears
> feasible.
>
> The technique of  exciting a high Q saw bandpass filter with an impulse and
> digitising  the  output is probably more expensive and complex than
> desirable.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On Monday, 25 January 2016  6:04 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi
>
> Since the  front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than
> a bit of time  to
> replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the  most
> likely way to “fix”
> the problem. The question is - why do that at all?  Just do a PC instrument
> that does the same
> thing as the counter with way  less effort…..
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 6:02 PM,  Dimitri.p <dimitri at dotp.com> wrote:
> >
> > Someday , someone  will get bored with everything else and give it a try,
> you know, in their  spare time.
> > The time when these counter were new was a long while  ago.
> > Back then an amplifier chip with 500MHZ BW was a much bigger deal  than
> it is in 2016.
> > ...but spare time is permanently on backorder ....  :)
> >
> > Dimitri
> >
> > At 06:15 AM 1/24/2016, Bob Camp  wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Back when these counters (5345,  5370, 5335) all were new, the inputs
> were
> >> the weak link on all of  them. There were known âdonât do thatâ things
> on the line
> >> that  would blow out each of them. Regardless of the level of care and
> yelling,  inputs
> >> blew on a fairly regular basis. Probably 10% of the  counters went back
> >> for repair over a 5 year period. It was always  a âswap out the entire
> boardâ sort
> >> of repair and never was under  $1K. We regularly spent the price of a
> new counter
> >> each year on  repairs. If there had been an easy way to fix them,  (or
> even to  just
> >> pay $500 for the chip) we would have done it.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> > On Jan 24, 2016, at 8:34 AM,  Dale Cannon <dalecan1 at cfl.rr.com>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >>  > Funny,
> >> >
> >> > A friend asked me if I could  replicate the front end for a 5370A, a
> many
> >> > years back. I  related to him that replicating the input chip was not
> a
> >> >  trivial task. His 5370A had been used (by someone else) for direct
> testing
> >> > of controlled-motion DC motors and the front end had  obviously been
> >> > overstressed by voltage spiking. At the time,  I had considered
> replicating
> >> > the front-end probe circuit of a  K100D logic analyzer: FET diff. pair
> >> > followed by an ECL 10216  line driver. Obviously most daughterboard or
> dead
> >> > bug  modification approaches have downsides; in the end I just
> couldn't  cut
> >> > up the HP front end and told him to search for a more  qualified
> repair
> >> > facility.
> >> >
> >> >  BAMA boat anchors has the K100D manual and probe schematic.
> >>  >
> >> >              Dale  Cannon  KS4FA
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: time-nuts  [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
> Mathew
> >> >  Breton
> >> > Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 5:15 PM
> >>  > To: time-nuts at febo.com
> >> > Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B  & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
> >> >
> >> > I  was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
> >>  > probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with
> a  set
> >> > of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a  cheap pair of
> >> > 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> >> > This  sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an
> open-source
> >> > drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to  the original IC
> designer,
> >> > as it is not a trivial effort due  to the wide input signal
> common-mode
> >> > range, and very tight  trigger timing requirements. Other items (like
> the
> >> > E-ECL)  output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> >> > I'm hoping  that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on
> it. I
> >>  > would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start
> the
> >> > detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better  ideas.
> >> > In addition, it would be really helpful if someone  could run a few
> rise-time
> >> > dispersion tests on an instrument  with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB
> set
> >> > (my unit obviously  doesn't qualify).
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Mat  Breton
> >> >  _______________________________________________
> >> > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go  to
> >> >  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> > and  follow the instructions there.
> >> > -----
> >> > No  virus found in this message.
> >> > Checked by AVG -  www.avg.com
> >> > Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4492/11420  - Release Date:
> 01/17/16
> >> >
> >> >  _______________________________________________
> >> > time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> > and  follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>  _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow  the instructions there.
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the  instructions  there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
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> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Jan 20 06:33:02 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:33:02 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] LEDs as non-linear photo-detectors
Message-ID: <20160120123302.895b589034aacca65a5ba27f@kinali.ch>

Moin,

Just to spice up the discussion of LEDs and their photo-sensitivity, I would
like to point you at the bachelor thess of Aljunid[1] where he used LEDs
as replacement for photodiodes in a michelson interferometer style
pulsewidth autocorellation setup to measure femtosecond pulses.

			Attila Kinali


[1] "Optical Autocorrelation using Non-Linearity in a Simple Photodiode",
by Syed Abdullah Aljunid, 2007
http://qolah.org/thesis/thesis-syed.pdf

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From ke9h.graham at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 12:20:42 2016
From: ke9h.graham at gmail.com (Graham / KE9H)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:20:42 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <f2e25.58e8e964.43d797a2@aol.com>
References: <f2e25.58e8e964.43d797a2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyJ-YUbWmmNDXGLWEaCCwk+jqu=XtSG+5bU6k3WOG9R-pBujg@mail.gmail.com>

There are clock distribution parts designed to do this low noise frequency
conversion and distribution.

Consider TI  LMK04100

Ignore PLL1
Put your 10 MHz as the reference input to PLL2.
Set Internal VCO to ~1200 MHz
Set the internal dividers to get 100 MHz out, and 10 MHz back to the PLL2
phase detector.

Get reasonable noise and 100 MHz output with your choice of 2VPECL, LVDS,
LVCMOS output levels.

If you have a dirty input clock/reference, or multiple sources, you can use
PLL1 and an external crystal in a VCO to clean it up before you multiply it
to 1200 MHz.

And you can get up to four other frequencies out of the part at the same
time.

150 fs class jitter.

$13 cost, quantity one.

--- Graham

==





On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> If not good enough an XOR with filter and one of the Crystek VCXO's
> previously mentioned may do it.
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>
> Also, it  will be systematic, with idle tones. Because of the delay
> elements used,  they will not be long-term static but move around.
>
> I agree, this is  quite noisy. If the noise is tolerable, it is indeed a
> small solution. 100  ps 1-sigma for 5 MHz in 100 MHz out isn't what I
> would consider  low.
>
> https://www.idt.com/document/dst/570-datasheet
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> On  01/24/2016 11:12 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> > Unfortunately the ICS570  (like all zero delay buffers) has an output
> jitter approaching about 1000  times the likely RF ADC internal sampling
> jitter. The resultant SNR  degradation may be a little excessive for this
> application..
> >  Bruce
> >
> >
> >      On Monday, 25 January 2016  11:00 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts
> <time-nuts at febo.com>  wrote:
> >
> >
> >   With all the discussions in a small  100 MHz source I asked my project
> > partner Juerg in Switzerland to run  some data on the ICS 570 that we use
> on the
> > majority of our projects  with excellent results. Using the HP53132A we
> see
>
> > + - 1   count at E10-11 ignore the large jumps those come from the Tbolt
> >  frequency  change to correct the 1 pps. Depending on the application
> this  is an
> > excellent  device.
> > Bert  Kehren
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 1/23/2016 6:02:23 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
> > dk4xp at arcor.de writes:
> >
> > Am   22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
> >> the oscillator is a HCMOS  output,  so figure swinging about 3.5V
> >> Output.. I'm feeding  differential clock  inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a
> >> +/-  300mV swing would  work.
> >>
> >>> 4)Title said "Low  Noise"  needs better  definition as to what kind of
> >>>  noise and how far down. Are we to  be  concerned about harmonic and
> spur
> >>> content as compared to  real random white  noise?
> >>
> >> This is time-nuts.. it has to be   perfect..
> >>
> >> But realistically, my source is probably  going to be  about -90dBc/Hz
> >> at 1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at  100 Hz.  I'm  going up by a factor of
> >> 10, so I'd expect  20 dB worse plus a  little..(nothing is perfect,
> eh?)
> >>
> >> Call it maybe -100 to -95 at  10 Hz, -125 to  -120 at 100 Hz and so
> forth.
> >>
> >> harmonics are   interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So
> >> harmonics of  the  100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20
> >>  are.  If  you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100,  then
> >> you get  weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a  software radio where
> >> the  50 MHz sample clock was  contaminated with some 66 MHz from the
> CPU)
> >>
> >>  Spurs cause the same issues.
> >>
> >> ON the other   hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much
> >> difference  if  you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise
> >>  floor: the spur  multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower  and
> >> down in the  noise.  Strong CW in band signals,  though, are a real
> pain.
> >>
> >>
> > <
> >
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#607927018804883377
> >  8
> >>
> >
> > I think that top left board would not be far  away:
> >
> > in :  10 MHz LVDS or CMOS
> > in:   3V3
> > out: 100 MHz CMOS 3V3
> >
> > just a  few hours wall  clock time from layout to working as a
> > ham radio weekender,  so  please excuse my diy home board
> > production process.
> >
> >  Ok, the use  of a 4046 descendant may not be the last word
> > from a  timenut perspective,  but I'll redo it with an osc of
> > my own  anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163  (161?) +  lvc04.
> >
> >
> > <   http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf   >
> >
> > Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape and  441 of a  similar one  , even
> > cheaper that seems to point to the same data  sheet.
> >
> > <
> >
>
> http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128
> >
> >>
> >  You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your
> reference.
> >
> > In the picture:
> > The bottom row of boards is  a doubler  100->200 MHz using 2*BF862,
> slight
> > gain,
> >  and diode doubler 200 ->  400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of
> >  100/200/300/500/600 +/-10  etc,
> > post amp to get a usable level  again.
> >
> > Still missing  400-> 800, 800->1600 to  feed  _my_ ADC clock input..
> >
> > regards,   Gerhard
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> >  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow  the  instructions there.
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the  instructions there.
> >
> >
> >  _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the  instructions  there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bill at hsmicrowave.com  Mon Jan 25 17:05:39 2016
From: bill at hsmicrowave.com (Bill)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 14:05:39 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <CAPyJ-YUbWmmNDXGLWEaCCwk+jqu=XtSG+5bU6k3WOG9R-pBujg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f2e25.58e8e964.43d797a2@aol.com>
 <CAPyJ-YUbWmmNDXGLWEaCCwk+jqu=XtSG+5bU6k3WOG9R-pBujg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A69C33.6000007@hsmicrowave.com>

Aaah - but then you need a microprocessor (and its noise if you're not 
careful) to control it. IMHO - too complicated an approach. Hard to beat 
a "careful" straight multiplier approach for simple or a phased locked 
100 MHz VCXO for the best phase noise.

Bill - N6GHz

On 1/25/2016 9:20 AM, Graham / KE9H wrote:
> There are clock distribution parts designed to do this low noise frequency
> conversion and distribution.
>
> Consider TI  LMK04100
>
> Ignore PLL1
> Put your 10 MHz as the reference input to PLL2.
> Set Internal VCO to ~1200 MHz
> Set the internal dividers to get 100 MHz out, and 10 MHz back to the PLL2
> phase detector.
>
> Get reasonable noise and 100 MHz output with your choice of 2VPECL, LVDS,
> LVCMOS output levels.
>
> If you have a dirty input clock/reference, or multiple sources, you can use
> PLL1 and an external crystal in a VCO to clean it up before you multiply it
> to 1200 MHz.
>
> And you can get up to four other frequencies out of the part at the same
> time.
>
> 150 fs class jitter.
>
> $13 cost, quantity one.
>
> --- Graham
>
> ==
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <
> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>
>> If not good enough an XOR with filter and one of the Crystek VCXO's
>> previously mentioned may do it.
>> Bert Kehren
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>>
>> Also, it  will be systematic, with idle tones. Because of the delay
>> elements used,  they will not be long-term static but move around.
>>
>> I agree, this is  quite noisy. If the noise is tolerable, it is indeed a
>> small solution. 100  ps 1-sigma for 5 MHz in 100 MHz out isn't what I
>> would consider  low.
>>
>> https://www.idt.com/document/dst/570-datasheet
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On  01/24/2016 11:12 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>>> Unfortunately the ICS570  (like all zero delay buffers) has an output
>> jitter approaching about 1000  times the likely RF ADC internal sampling
>> jitter. The resultant SNR  degradation may be a little excessive for this
>> application..
>>>   Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>       On Monday, 25 January 2016  11:00 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>    With all the discussions in a small  100 MHz source I asked my project
>>> partner Juerg in Switzerland to run  some data on the ICS 570 that we use
>> on the
>>> majority of our projects  with excellent results. Using the HP53132A we
>> see
>>
>>> + - 1   count at E10-11 ignore the large jumps those come from the Tbolt
>>>   frequency  change to correct the 1 pps. Depending on the application
>> this  is an
>>> excellent  device.
>>> Bert  Kehren
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/23/2016 6:02:23 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
>>> dk4xp at arcor.de writes:
>>>
>>> Am   22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
>>>> the oscillator is a HCMOS  output,  so figure swinging about 3.5V
>>>> Output.. I'm feeding  differential clock  inputs on ADCs.  I'll bet a
>>>> +/-  300mV swing would  work.
>>>>
>>>>> 4)Title said "Low  Noise"  needs better  definition as to what kind of
>>>>>   noise and how far down. Are we to  be  concerned about harmonic and
>> spur
>>>>> content as compared to  real random white  noise?
>>>> This is time-nuts.. it has to be   perfect..
>>>>
>>>> But realistically, my source is probably  going to be  about -90dBc/Hz
>>>> at 1 Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at  100 Hz.  I'm  going up by a factor of
>>>> 10, so I'd expect  20 dB worse plus a  little..(nothing is perfect,
>> eh?)
>>>> Call it maybe -100 to -95 at  10 Hz, -125 to  -120 at 100 Hz and so
>> forth.
>>>> harmonics are   interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So
>>>> harmonics of  the  100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10 or 20
>>>>   are.  If  you have significant 90 or 110 contaminating the 100,  then
>>>> you get  weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a  software radio where
>>>> the  50 MHz sample clock was  contaminated with some 66 MHz from the
>> CPU)
>>>>   Spurs cause the same issues.
>>>>
>>>> ON the other   hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make much
>>>> difference  if  you're digitizing a signal that is close to the noise
>>>>   floor: the spur  multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower  and
>>>> down in the  noise.  Strong CW in band signals,  though, are a real
>> pain.
>>>>
>>> <
>>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#607927018804883377
>>>   8
>>> I think that top left board would not be far  away:
>>>
>>> in :  10 MHz LVDS or CMOS
>>> in:   3V3
>>> out: 100 MHz CMOS 3V3
>>>
>>> just a  few hours wall  clock time from layout to working as a
>>> ham radio weekender,  so  please excuse my diy home board
>>> production process.
>>>
>>>   Ok, the use  of a 4046 descendant may not be the last word
>>> from a  timenut perspective,  but I'll redo it with an osc of
>>> my own  anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163  (161?) +  lvc04.
>>>
>>>
>>> <   http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf   >
>>>
>>> Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape and  441 of a  similar one  , even
>>> cheaper that seems to point to the same data  sheet.
>>>
>>> <
>>>
>> http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128
>>>   You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your
>> reference.
>>> In the picture:
>>> The bottom row of boards is  a doubler  100->200 MHz using 2*BF862,
>> slight
>>> gain,
>>>   and diode doubler 200 ->  400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of
>>>   100/200/300/500/600 +/-10  etc,
>>> post amp to get a usable level  again.
>>>
>>> Still missing  400-> 800, 800->1600 to  feed  _my_ ADC clock input..
>>>
>>> regards,   Gerhard
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>   https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow  the  instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the  instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the  instructions  there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the  instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Jan 25 18:06:15 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 18:06:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Generating a solid PPS from 10Mhz source -
	finetuned start
In-Reply-To: <1453730120.18280.40.camel@free.fr>
References: <106220425AD1DA43B9621690F9D3045C92D8B5D8@mbx028-e1-va-8.exch028.domain.local>
 <1453730120.18280.40.camel@free.fr>
Message-ID: <810C6D92-071E-4E45-BF01-59E296DECA7C@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 25, 2016, at 8:55 AM, Xavier Bestel <xavier.bestel at free.fr> wrote:
> 
> Hi Guys,
> 
> Le mercredi 13 janvier 2016 à 09:22 +0000, Jerome Blaha a écrit :
>> Hey Guys,
>> 
>> Is there an easy circuit to build that can consistently deliver a 1
>> PPS from a 10MHz source with excellent resolution and
>> repeatability?  My first application is to test different 10MHz
>> oscillators without a TIC always attached and then compare the PPS
>> output change over time against a master GPSDO PPS with an HP53132A.
>> 
>> The circuit used for PPS generation would have to deliver consistent
>> PPS output with preferably not more than 100ps noise or jitter,
>> assuming a perfect source.  I'm totally guessing that for this
>> resolution, the PPS would have to be generated and accurate to within
>> 0.001Hz every second.  If this is too difficult, maybe the
>> integration time can be increased to generate one pulse every
>> 10second or every 100,000,000.00 cycles?
>> 
>> Finally, is a square 10Mhz reference any better in this case than a
>> sinusoidal input for generating the PPS?
> 
> What would it take to make that PPS adjustable with a step <= 1ns ?
> I see that the PIC solution has a mean of "arming" the 1PPS to let it
> start at the desired time, but the granularity would be of course
> 10MHz. For example are there easy-to-use programmable delays to reach
> the missing precision ?

The question is (as always) why? 

If you are trying to get to low temperature coef and low jitter and good long term stability ….

No, they really aren’t good enough. 

Bob


> 
> 	Xav
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 25 20:54:20 2016
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 19:54:20 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>

After running continuously for about 3 years at work, I stored my Z3801 for
a little over a year. I recently took it out of storage and when I hooked
it up, all I get is a power on light. The front panel LEDs light in
sequence and the 6 inside blink red once and then the last one blinks
continuously as always. Thing is, it never locks on GPS. I even left it on
over night. When run on 27 volts, it starts out at about 1.1 amps, then
after about 10 minutes, goes up to 1.26 amps. Then, after about 30 more
minutes, it settles down to .88 amps and stays there. The OCXO gets warm. I
haven't checked for 10 MHz out, but I am pretty sure it is there. I hooked
it up to my netbook but I get no response from it at all. I am using one of
those USB to serial devices and it used to work. I am looking for a PC with
a real serial port to try. I know the antenna is good. It works with one of
those Symmetricom GPSDO cards.  Having heard about the evils of tantalum
capacitors for years, I replaced them all except for those on the GPS
receiver board itself. All the test points that call out a voltage read
correctly. I'm thinking of trying a new GPS board next. I have had this
thing a long time and it has always just worked. Any ideas what the problem
is?

From dk4xp at arcor.de  Mon Jan 25 20:36:14 2016
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 02:36:14 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <CAPyJ-YUbWmmNDXGLWEaCCwk+jqu=XtSG+5bU6k3WOG9R-pBujg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f2e25.58e8e964.43d797a2@aol.com>
 <CAPyJ-YUbWmmNDXGLWEaCCwk+jqu=XtSG+5bU6k3WOG9R-pBujg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A6CD8E.6010707@arcor.de>

Am 25.01.2016 um 18:20 schrieb Graham / KE9H:
> There are clock distribution parts designed to do this low noise frequency
> conversion and distribution.
>
> Consider TI  LMK04100
> ....
>
> 150 fs class jitter.
>
But only if you integrate the noise only from 12 kHz offset to 20 MHz.
It is a telecom spec.

regards, Gerhard

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon Jan 25 20:39:41 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 17:39:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: Message from Bill <bill@hsmicrowave.com>
 of "Mon, 25 Jan 2016 14:05:39 PST." <56A69C33.6000007@hsmicrowave.com>
Message-ID: <20160126013941.8F05E406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


bill at hsmicrowave.com said:
> Aaah - but then you need a microprocessor (and its noise if you're not
> careful) to control it. IMHO - too complicated an approach.

Yes, but you don't need many smarts to send a few bits to configure a PLL 
chip.

You can get low end microprocessors in 8 pin packages.  They don't even need 
an external clock or crystal, just a bypass cap.  If you are concerned about 
noise, they can go into deep sleep mode.  Most of them have really low power 
modes designed so that the battery for a chip can run close to shelf life.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From EWKehren at aol.com  Mon Jan 25 21:56:42 2016
From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:56:42 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <270ebd.5a9a0638.43d83a6a@aol.com>

We have looked at the LMK devices but with my 74 years would not try to  
solder it. There are other neat parts out there but again who is able to 
solder  them.
Bert Kehren
 
 
In a message dated 1/25/2016 8:11:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
bill at hsmicrowave.com writes:

Aaah -  but then you need a microprocessor (and its noise if you're not 
careful)  to control it. IMHO - too complicated an approach. Hard to beat 
a  "careful" straight multiplier approach for simple or a phased locked 
100  MHz VCXO for the best phase noise.

Bill - N6GHz

On 1/25/2016  9:20 AM, Graham / KE9H wrote:
> There are clock distribution parts  designed to do this low noise 
frequency
> conversion and  distribution.
>
> Consider TI  LMK04100
>
>  Ignore PLL1
> Put your 10 MHz as the reference input to PLL2.
>  Set Internal VCO to ~1200 MHz
> Set the internal dividers to get 100 MHz  out, and 10 MHz back to the PLL2
> phase detector.
>
> Get  reasonable noise and 100 MHz output with your choice of 2VPECL, LVDS,
>  LVCMOS output levels.
>
> If you have a dirty input  clock/reference, or multiple sources, you can 
use
> PLL1 and an external  crystal in a VCO to clean it up before you multiply 
it
> to 1200  MHz.
>
> And you can get up to four other frequencies out of the  part at the same
> time.
>
> 150 fs class  jitter.
>
> $13 cost, quantity one.
>
> ---  Graham
>
> ==
>
>
>
>
>
> On  Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Bert Kehren via time-nuts <
>  time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>
>> If not good enough an XOR  with filter and one of the Crystek VCXO's
>> previously mentioned may  do it.
>> Bert Kehren
>>
>>
>> In a  message dated 1/25/2016 10:01:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>>  magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>>
>> Also, it  will  be systematic, with idle tones. Because of the delay
>> elements  used,  they will not be long-term static but move  around.
>>
>> I agree, this is  quite noisy. If the  noise is tolerable, it is indeed a
>> small solution. 100  ps  1-sigma for 5 MHz in 100 MHz out isn't what I
>> would consider   low.
>>
>>  https://www.idt.com/document/dst/570-datasheet
>>
>>  Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> On  01/24/2016 11:12  PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>>> Unfortunately the ICS570   (like all zero delay buffers) has an output
>> jitter approaching  about 1000  times the likely RF ADC internal sampling
>> jitter.  The resultant SNR  degradation may be a little excessive for  
this
>> application..
>>>    Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Monday, 25 January 2016  11:00 AM, Bert Kehren via  time-nuts
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>    With all the discussions  in a small  100 MHz source I asked my 
project
>>> partner  Juerg in Switzerland to run  some data on the ICS 570 that we  
use
>> on the
>>> majority of our projects  with  excellent results. Using the HP53132A we
>>  see
>>
>>> + - 1  count at E10-11 ignore the large  jumps those come from the Tbolt
>>>   frequency   change to correct the 1 pps. Depending on the application
>>  this  is an
>>> excellent  device.
>>>  Bert  Kehren
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message  dated 1/23/2016 6:02:23 P.M.  Eastern Standard Time,
>>>  dk4xp at arcor.de writes:
>>>
>>> Am    22.01.2016 um 22:40 schrieb jimlux:
>>>> the oscillator is a  HCMOS  output,  so figure swinging about 3.5V
>>>>  Output.. I'm feeding  differential clock  inputs on ADCs.  I'll  bet a
>>>> +/-  300mV swing would   work.
>>>>
>>>>> 4)Title said "Low   Noise"  needs better  definition as to what kind  
of
>>>>>   noise and how far down. Are we to   be  concerned about harmonic and
>> spur
>>>>>  content as compared to  real random white   noise?
>>>> This is time-nuts.. it has to be    perfect..
>>>>
>>>> But realistically, my source  is probably  going to be  about -90dBc/Hz
>>>> at 1  Hz, -125 at 10Hz, -145 at  100 Hz.  I'm  going up by a factor  of
>>>> 10, so I'd expect  20 dB worse plus a   little..(nothing is perfect,
>> eh?)
>>>> Call it  maybe -100 to -95 at  10 Hz, -125 to  -120 at 100 Hz and  so
>> forth.
>>>> harmonics are    interesting: it's the sample clock into an ADC. So
>>>>  harmonics of  the  100 aren't a big deal.  harmonics of the 10  or 20
>>>>   are.  If  you have significant  90 or 110 contaminating the 100,  
then
>>>> you get   weird spurs..  (I had this problem on a  software radio  
where
>>>> the  50 MHz sample clock was  contaminated  with some 66 MHz from the
>> CPU)
>>>>    Spurs cause the same issues.
>>>>
>>>> ON the  other   hand... spurs that are pretty low don't make  much
>>>> difference  if  you're digitizing a signal  that is close to the noise
>>>>   floor: the  spur  multiplied by the desired signal is usually lower  
 and
>>>> down in the  noise.  Strong CW in band  signals,  though, are a real
>>  pain.
>>>>
>>> <
>>>
>>  
https://picasaweb.google.com/103357048842463945642/Tronix#607927018804883377
>>>    8
>>> I think that top left board would not be far   away:
>>>
>>> in :  10 MHz LVDS or  CMOS
>>> in:   3V3
>>> out: 100 MHz CMOS  3V3
>>>
>>> just a  few hours wall  clock  time from layout to working as a
>>> ham radio weekender,   so  please excuse my diy home board
>>> production  process.
>>>
>>>   Ok, the use  of a  4046 descendant may not be the last word
>>> from a  timenut  perspective,  but I'll redo it with an osc of
>>> my  own  anyway. Divider 100/10 is a LVC163  (161?) +   lvc04.
>>>
>>>
>>> <    http://www.crystek.com/crystal/spec-sheets/vcxo/CVHD-950.pdf    >
>>>
>>> Digi-Key has 153 of them on a tape  and  441 of a  similar one  , even
>>> cheaper that  seems to point to the same data  sheet.
>>>
>>>  <
>>>
>>  
http://www.digikey.de/product-detail/de/CVHD-950-100.000/744-1213-ND/1644128
>>>    You can get the few dB missing close-in by transfer from your
>>  reference.
>>> In the picture:
>>> The bottom row of  boards is  a doubler  100->200 MHz using 2*BF862,
>>  slight
>>> gain,
>>>   and diode doubler 200  ->  400 MHz, SAW filter to get rid of
>>>    100/200/300/500/600 +/-10  etc,
>>> post amp to get a usable  level  again.
>>>
>>> Still missing   400-> 800, 800->1600 to  feed  _my_ ADC clock  input..
>>>
>>> regards,    Gerhard
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>  time-nuts   mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To  unsubscribe, go to
>>>    https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and  follow  the  instructions  there.
>>>
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts  mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go  to
>>  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and  follow the  instructions  there.
>>>
>>>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts  mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go  to
>>  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and  follow the  instructions  there.
>>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
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>> and follow  the  instructions there.
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>  https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow  the instructions there.
>>
>  _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions  there.

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To unsubscribe, go to  
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and follow the  instructions there.


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue Jan 26 00:54:19 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2016 21:54:19 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: Message from John Green <wpxs472@gmail.com> of "Mon,
 25 Jan 2016 19:54:20 CST."
 <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160126055419.17A44406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>

> I'm thinking of trying a new GPS board next.

A bad GPS board won't prevent communication to the main CPU.

You might try capturing the output when you power it on.  It sends out 
something.  I forget what, probably the ID string..  If that doesn't work, 
try a scope.  You might have the PC running at the wrong baud rate.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 26 01:57:54 2016
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 06:57:54 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <BLU181-W601260F971E182A0DE8306CED80@phx.gbl>

Actually not hard to do...  lay out circuit board (free version of Eagle),  have boards fab'd at Oshpark.com or your favorite Chinese proto shop (I like gojgo.com).   Have solder paste stencil made at oshstencils.com.  Squeege solder paste down with a credit card.  Place components by hand.  Reflow board with a modified toaster oven,  electric skillet,  hot air tool, etc.

If you want to get anywhere in electronics these days,  you really need to get set up to do simple SMD work.  It's not hard or expensive.   The days of point to point wiring of vacuum tubes to terminal strips be looong gone.  Through-hole and DIP packages are not far behind.

-------
> There are other neat parts out there but again who is able to 
solder  them. 		 	   		  

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Jan 26 02:07:52 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:07:52 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] The cross-correlation catastrophe
Message-ID: <56A71B48.4030009@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Fellow time-nuts,

Over a year and a half or so, we have been starting to grasp the various 
aspects of the cross-correlation catastrophe. This consists of two 
properties, one is the insertion of anti-correlated noise into the two 
channels, and then when cross-correlated it produced a subtracting 
"energy" reducing the level and even inverting the sign. Thus, there is 
a bias in the estimation and overoptimistic or even seemingly physically 
impossible (until you understand the mechanics). This have been 
occupying the mind of some of the best folks we have in the field.
Just interacting and discussing this with some of them have been a great 
learning experience. Anyway, here is a write-up that covers it sufficiently:

http://arxiv.org/abs/1512.06160

So, now you know why I look suspiciously at too low noise-levels.

Cheers,
Magnus

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Tue Jan 26 03:21:00 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 03:21:00 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160126112104.L3IiM7X2@smtp4h.mail.yandex.net>

John wrote:

>I even left it on over night.

It may need longer than overnight to assemble an almanac and 
initialize everything.  Leave it on for a week before you panic.

Best regards,

Charles



From cfharris at erols.com  Tue Jan 26 01:50:47 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 01:50:47 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <270ebd.5a9a0638.43d83a6a@aol.com>
References: <270ebd.5a9a0638.43d83a6a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <56A71747.8040605@erols.com>

Hi Bert,

I have noticed that if I have the right magnification,
I can do amazing things.  Even the tiny age related
tremors that naturally occur in my hands reduce with
magnification.  The brain is a marvelous  servo mechanism.

Get a good 40x-80x zoom stereo microscope meant for
dissection, the type mounted on a boom, and I would bet
you too could deal with the small surface mount parts.

When I build with SMD, I always put all of the parts on
the top side, and use solder paste.  I used to put lots
of tiny dots out with a syringe that works a lot like a
caulking gun... only smaller.  But I found that simply
drawing a thin stripe of paste across the SMD pads
on the board, and then setting the part on the paste,
works just fine.  The solder draws towards the pads, and
leaves the space between the pins clear.  Occasionally
there will be some tiny balls sitting between the pins,
but they clean up when I clean the board with alcohol
and a brush...not that they hurt anything anyway.

The chips self center while they are floating on the
molten solder.  No need to touch them with a soldering
iron, or anything else.

I use a lab grade hot plate to bring the board up to reflow
temperature.  And I am off to the races.

For disassembly, I use an IR underboard heater, and a
hot air source... about 1/8 inch diameter, and move it
around the pin area until it melts, and then lift the
part free.

To put parts on an already populated board, I pre heat
the underside of the board to about 1/2-2/3 the way to
the solder melting temperature, and use a little gentle
hot air source to head the pads the rest of the way to
molten.  No need for soldering irons.

Practice on junk boards until it becomes natural.

-Chuck Harris

Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
> We have looked at the LMK devices but with my 74 years would not try to
> solder it. There are other neat parts out there but again who is able to
> solder  them.
> Bert Kehren

From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Tue Jan 26 05:30:32 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 05:30:32 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A74AC8.4040003@ArtekManuals.com>

John
I am no expert but I have been playing ( A lot) with my Z3801 during the 
last month, after having it in storage for 15 years !

What software program are you running, under what operating system?
Can you see the satellites being tracked in the receiver status window 
in SATSTAT? on the computer?

I have had very poor success using the Belkin USB to serial adapters And 
picked up a laptop running a real RS-232 port and Windows XP.

Without being able to see commands and the Receiver Status on the 
computer it can be a bit hard to troubleshoot blind this beast.

In my case I still get glitchy things going on with Z38xx program by the 
German fellow and I had to revert back to SATSTAT to do set up. Then I 
revert back to Z38xx for its graphics displays of the data once the 
receiver settles in

Dave





  On 1/25/2016 8:54 PM, John Green wrote:
> After running continuously for about 3 years at work, I stored my Z3801 for
> a little over a year. I recently took it out of storage and when I hooked
> it up, all I get is a power on light. The front panel LEDs light in
> sequence and the 6 inside blink red once and then the last one blinks
> continuously as always. Thing is, it never locks on GPS. I even left it on
> over night. When run on 27 volts, it starts out at about 1.1 amps, then
> after about 10 minutes, goes up to 1.26 amps. Then, after about 30 more
> minutes, it settles down to .88 amps and stays there. The OCXO gets warm. I
> haven't checked for 10 MHz out, but I am pretty sure it is there. I hooked
> it up to my netbook but I get no response from it at all. I am using one of
> those USB to serial devices and it used to work. I am looking for a PC with
> a real serial port to try. I know the antenna is good. It works with one of
> those Symmetricom GPSDO cards.  Having heard about the evils of tantalum
> capacitors for years, I replaced them all except for those on the GPS
> receiver board itself. All the test points that call out a voltage read
> correctly. I'm thinking of trying a new GPS board next. I have had this
> thing a long time and it has always just worked. Any ideas what the problem
> is?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Jan 26 07:14:38 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 07:14:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A6CD8E.6010707@arcor.de>
References: <f2e25.58e8e964.43d797a2@aol.com>
 <CAPyJ-YUbWmmNDXGLWEaCCwk+jqu=XtSG+5bU6k3WOG9R-pBujg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A6CD8E.6010707@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <F4DFFD71-6F0D-4CC0-8D43-082CD228960C@n1k.org>

Hi



> On Jan 25, 2016, at 8:36 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp at arcor.de> wrote:
> 
> Am 25.01.2016 um 18:20 schrieb Graham / KE9H:
>> There are clock distribution parts designed to do this low noise frequency
>> conversion and distribution.
>> 
>> Consider TI  LMK04100
>> ....
>> 
>> 150 fs class jitter.
>> 
> But only if you integrate the noise only from 12 kHz offset to 20 MHz.
> It is a telecom spec.

You take the phase noise over that range and calculate the jitter from the phase noise. 
There is no “phase” (as in audio phase) information in the phase noise information you collect. There is just 
amplitude. Since you do not have angle information, you have to make some assumptions
about how the noise in each region sums up. 

How much of a difference can that be? Take a look at how the Fourier components of an impulse
add up. The angle of the components can matter quite a bit. Keep the same amplitudes, but fiddle
the angles between the components — you get a very different waveform. 

The calculation has the nice property that you *can* do the math with normal data. Run on 
broadband noise it works pretty well. When you get into noise regions that *may* have 
correlated noise (say from a modulation process). 

So, yes, there are a number of questions you need to ask when you see a jitter spec. A
number done by the formula will be very different 12 KHz to 20 MHz compared to 1 Hz to 
100 KHz. The directly measured noise may be different from either number.

Bob 


> 
> regards, Gerhard
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 07:56:33 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 07:56:33 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjZ+WOLCeOHbWf+NKt4przNUEFeZcQJfFZ4G4LZ0sjOvw@mail.gmail.com>

John
The 3801s are getting very old at this point. I know mine has started to
show a loss of lock occasionally on the oscillator. Intermittent problems
are very tough.
What jumps out to me is the 27 volts. That seems low as I recall. I run at
48 V. I understand there were several models made so what I mention may not
be correct.
The other thing is there is a small regulator on the power board.
I know on my unit one of the regulated outputs on the switcher failed and I
simply replaced it with another small block switcher. Though as you mention
your voltages appears fine.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 8:54 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:

> After running continuously for about 3 years at work, I stored my Z3801 for
> a little over a year. I recently took it out of storage and when I hooked
> it up, all I get is a power on light. The front panel LEDs light in
> sequence and the 6 inside blink red once and then the last one blinks
> continuously as always. Thing is, it never locks on GPS. I even left it on
> over night. When run on 27 volts, it starts out at about 1.1 amps, then
> after about 10 minutes, goes up to 1.26 amps. Then, after about 30 more
> minutes, it settles down to .88 amps and stays there. The OCXO gets warm. I
> haven't checked for 10 MHz out, but I am pretty sure it is there. I hooked
> it up to my netbook but I get no response from it at all. I am using one of
> those USB to serial devices and it used to work. I am looking for a PC with
> a real serial port to try. I know the antenna is good. It works with one of
> those Symmetricom GPSDO cards.  Having heard about the evils of tantalum
> capacitors for years, I replaced them all except for those on the GPS
> receiver board itself. All the test points that call out a voltage read
> correctly. I'm thinking of trying a new GPS board next. I have had this
> thing a long time and it has always just worked. Any ideas what the problem
> is?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From gianni at islandlabs.eu  Tue Jan 26 09:19:32 2016
From: gianni at islandlabs.eu (gianni)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 15:19:32 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Schlumberger FA2527 ocxo
In-Reply-To: <CAK2g+g1J0LVYWny47Og9vRNwrpv6CZaKfMU36F2oHBPYbMNYKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK2g+g1J0LVYWny47Og9vRNwrpv6CZaKfMU36F2oHBPYbMNYKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1453817969386.64888.20864@webmail5>

> Hi
> I have a OCXO marked Schlumberger Adret 622 used in Adret 4101A Frequency standard receiver
> I do not know if it is similar but performance seem OK
> It is a cube of about 70 mm with DB9 output connector ; frequency is 5MHz with external pot adj.
> The ADEV seem good: data here <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMV1RWaTg1UHc1NjA/view?usp=sharing>
> schematics here:
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMM1ZfalFWTTY5cnM/view?usp=sharing>
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMZmdTdG5WZGxCcEU/view?usp=sharing>
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMaEs4cHh6NFhyOU0/view?usp=sharing>
> 

Gianni
Il 25 gennaio 2016 12:32:29 +01:00, Luca Dal Passo <iw2lje at gmail.com> ha scritto:

> Hi group,
> Does anyone know something about the Schlumberger type FA2527 5MHz
> OCXO?
> It seems to be a good unit, with mumetal shield, coarse and fine frequency
> adj multiturn pots, fine temperature trimmer, good voltage regulator, good
> assembly and internal cylindrical thermal chamber surronded by a wire
> resistence (double oven?).
> It was used in Schlumberger electronic counters in the seventies or
> eighties as a high stability option.
> I'm trying to understand pin out and supply voltage, but I wish to know
> some more information about functions of pins, and specifications.
> Nothing found on the net.....
> Thank you in advance!
> Luca
> iw2lje
> Milano
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- <time-nuts at febo.com>
> To unsubscribe, go to <https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From p.boven at xs4all.nl  Tue Jan 26 10:12:41 2016
From: p.boven at xs4all.nl (Paul Boven)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:12:41 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
Message-ID: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>

Hi everyone,

Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio 
observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to 
their in-house standards.

Regards, Paul Boven.

From EWKehren at aol.com  Tue Jan 26 10:17:23 2016
From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:17:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <9643a8.4e52d122.43d8e803@aol.com>

Chuck
Thank you for your advice, I will print it out and when needed experiment.  
We use SMD.s and two of our tem members are very good at it, I do limited 
stuff  and have some tools but also a macular hole in one eye. In designs I 
try to stay  with solder able SMD's and we have projects like the AD9913 
which gets to the  limit what I will consider. I did not do the soldering.
Bert
 
 
In a message dated 1/26/2016 10:00:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
cfharris at erols.com writes:

Hi  Bert,

I have noticed that if I have the right magnification,
I can  do amazing things.  Even the tiny age related
tremors that naturally  occur in my hands reduce with
magnification.  The brain is a  marvelous  servo mechanism.

Get a good 40x-80x zoom stereo  microscope meant for
dissection, the type mounted on a boom, and I would  bet
you too could deal with the small surface mount parts.

When I  build with SMD, I always put all of the parts on
the top side, and use  solder paste.  I used to put lots
of tiny dots out with a syringe that  works a lot like a
caulking gun... only smaller.  But I found that  simply
drawing a thin stripe of paste across the SMD pads
on the board,  and then setting the part on the paste,
works just fine.  The solder  draws towards the pads, and
leaves the space between the pins clear.   Occasionally
there will be some tiny balls sitting between the pins,
but  they clean up when I clean the board with alcohol
and a brush...not that  they hurt anything anyway.

The chips self center while they are  floating on the
molten solder.  No need to touch them with a  soldering
iron, or anything else.

I use a lab grade hot plate to  bring the board up to reflow
temperature.  And I am off to the  races.

For disassembly, I use an IR underboard heater, and a
hot air  source... about 1/8 inch diameter, and move it
around the pin area until it  melts, and then lift the
part free.

To put parts on an already  populated board, I pre heat
the underside of the board to about 1/2-2/3 the  way to
the solder melting temperature, and use a little gentle
hot air  source to head the pads the rest of the way to
molten.  No need for  soldering irons.

Practice on junk boards until it becomes  natural.

-Chuck Harris

Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
>  We have looked at the LMK devices but with my 74 years would not try  to
> solder it. There are other neat parts out there but again who is  able to
> solder  them.
> Bert  Kehren
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.


From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Tue Jan 26 10:32:50 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:32:50 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <20160126055419.17A44406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20160126055419.17A44406057@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <56A791A2.2020309@ArtekManuals.com>

On 1/26/2016 12:54 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> I'm thinking of trying a new GPS board next.
> A bad GPS board won't prevent communication to the main CPU.
>
> You might try capturing the output when you power it on.  It sends out
> something.  I forget what, probably the ID string..  If that doesn't work,
> try a scope.  You might have the PC running at the wrong baud rate.
>
>
Hal makes a good point the Z3801 RS232 port is not exactly standard make 
sure the COM port settings in Z38xx and in the set up on the computer 
(CONTROL PANEL) are set to 19200baud, 7, 1, ODD. BOTH have to be set up 
as these are not computer industry "standard"

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals

-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


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From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Tue Jan 26 10:33:21 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:33:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjZ+WOLCeOHbWf+NKt4przNUEFeZcQJfFZ4G4LZ0sjOvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjZ+WOLCeOHbWf+NKt4przNUEFeZcQJfFZ4G4LZ0sjOvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56A791C1.5080401@ArtekManuals.com>

there are two versions a 24V version and a 48V version ... If you look 
at the back of the Z3801 there will be a "dot" on which voltage your 
unit is powered for . ...The 48V version is the more common.  Since your 
unit is going through the full LED cycle on 27V supply I suspect that 
you do have the correct voltage.

Since I know your are running Z38xx software I would revert back to the 
SATSTAT to get things settled down. I have had command string errors 
with Z38xx which I dont get with SATSTAT

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals


On 1/26/2016 7:56 AM, paul swed wrote:
> John
> The 3801s are getting very old at this point. I know mine has started to
> show a loss of lock occasionally on the oscillator. Intermittent problems
> are very tough.
> What jumps out to me is the 27 volts. That seems low as I recall. I run at
> 48 V. I understand there were several models made so what I mention may not
> be correct.
> The other thing is there is a small regulator on the power board.
> I know on my unit one of the regulated outputs on the switcher failed and I
> simply replaced it with another small block switcher. Though as you mention
> your voltages appears fine.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 8:54 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> After running continuously for about 3 years at work, I stored my Z3801 for
>> a little over a year. I recently took it out of storage and when I hooked
>> it up, all I get is a power on light. The front panel LEDs light in
>> sequence and the 6 inside blink red once and then the last one blinks
>> continuously as always. Thing is, it never locks on GPS. I even left it on
>> over night. When run on 27 volts, it starts out at about 1.1 amps, then
>> after about 10 minutes, goes up to 1.26 amps. Then, after about 30 more
>> minutes, it settles down to .88 amps and stays there. The OCXO gets warm. I
>> haven't checked for 10 MHz out, but I am pretty sure it is there. I hooked
>> it up to my netbook but I get no response from it at all. I am using one of
>> those USB to serial devices and it used to work. I am looking for a PC with
>> a real serial port to try. I know the antenna is good. It works with one of
>> those Symmetricom GPSDO cards.  Having heard about the evils of tantalum
>> capacitors for years, I replaced them all except for those on the GPS
>> receiver board itself. All the test points that call out a voltage read
>> correctly. I'm thinking of trying a new GPS board next. I have had this
>> thing a long time and it has always just worked. Any ideas what the problem
>> is?
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


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From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 10:55:19 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:55:19 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <56A74AC8.4040003@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJ3rxbkaCkqRZ18BkyBbU-GCL51pCRvqYGcAaV3+ARC1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <56A74AC8.4040003@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiny4DGZBw_db_Qddt=wsr66x6nHsKNUjvV4=k4BBuCKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Good comment on leaving it on for a long time if the almanac has been lost.
You see nothing accept the green pwr led and I have seen 48 hours to lock.
I added a batter 2 X AA and that keeps the almanac and enhances startup.
But nothing like a modern 30 sec or less receiver.
WB8TSL

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:30 AM, Artek Manuals <Manuals at artekmanuals.com>
wrote:

> John
> I am no expert but I have been playing ( A lot) with my Z3801 during the
> last month, after having it in storage for 15 years !
>
> What software program are you running, under what operating system?
> Can you see the satellites being tracked in the receiver status window in
> SATSTAT? on the computer?
>
> I have had very poor success using the Belkin USB to serial adapters And
> picked up a laptop running a real RS-232 port and Windows XP.
>
> Without being able to see commands and the Receiver Status on the computer
> it can be a bit hard to troubleshoot blind this beast.
>
> In my case I still get glitchy things going on with Z38xx program by the
> German fellow and I had to revert back to SATSTAT to do set up. Then I
> revert back to Z38xx for its graphics displays of the data once the
> receiver settles in
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  On 1/25/2016 8:54 PM, John Green wrote:
>
>> After running continuously for about 3 years at work, I stored my Z3801
>> for
>> a little over a year. I recently took it out of storage and when I hooked
>> it up, all I get is a power on light. The front panel LEDs light in
>> sequence and the 6 inside blink red once and then the last one blinks
>> continuously as always. Thing is, it never locks on GPS. I even left it on
>> over night. When run on 27 volts, it starts out at about 1.1 amps, then
>> after about 10 minutes, goes up to 1.26 amps. Then, after about 30 more
>> minutes, it settles down to .88 amps and stays there. The OCXO gets warm.
>> I
>> haven't checked for 10 MHz out, but I am pretty sure it is there. I hooked
>> it up to my netbook but I get no response from it at all. I am using one
>> of
>> those USB to serial devices and it used to work. I am looking for a PC
>> with
>> a real serial port to try. I know the antenna is good. It works with one
>> of
>> those Symmetricom GPSDO cards.  Having heard about the evils of tantalum
>> capacitors for years, I replaced them all except for those on the GPS
>> receiver board itself. All the test points that call out a voltage read
>> correctly. I'm thinking of trying a new GPS board next. I have had this
>> thing a long time and it has always just worked. Any ideas what the
>> problem
>> is?
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>
> --
> Dave
> Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From tshoppa at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 11:16:18 2016
From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:16:18 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CAJ_qRvYdEitgt40kau=9e5fdCLvskiAk8uVO6oPg8inMUEmjSA@mail.gmail.com>

Indeed, multiple Z3801A GPSCON pages show an impulse step for by the amount
you describe. I would describe the graphs as showing a positive TI step
followed by negative TI step. My reading of the graphs shows that it is
consistent with the 13.7 usec you describe.

Am attempting to attach some EFC/TI graphs. Everyone seems to configure
their scales a little differently.

Tim N3QE



On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Paul Boven <p.boven at xs4all.nl> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio
> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to
> their in-house standards.
>
> Regards, Paul Boven.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan 26 11:18:04 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:18:04 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <67727.1453825084@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <56A78CE9.20200 at xs4all.nl>, Paul Boven writes:

>Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
>I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio 
>observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to 
>their in-house standards.

My logging indicates that there has been some kind of disturbances
today, I'll see what I can pull out of the data.

What puzzles me is that two receivers, 100km apart, does not show it
happening at the same time.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Jan 26 11:23:16 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:23:16 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20160126172316.895033a4c47d023f1057b8ab@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:12:41 +0100
Paul Boven <p.boven at xs4all.nl> wrote:

> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio 
> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to 
> their in-house standards.

Do you have references to those reports? 
The only one i've seen is from the Finnish Alto University Observatory:
https://blogs.aalto.fi/metsahovi/gps-kellonajan-outo-hyppays-huomattiin-metsahovissa/#.VqecHW-Vtpg


			Attila Kinali

-- 
Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
		-- unknown

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Tue Jan 26 11:31:57 2016
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:31:57 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <2F3290C6B6F6421CB1DE9C355AED7612@pc52>

Paul,

I've received inquires about the 13 us jump since 8 PM last night (PST).

Possibly related: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?Do=gpsShowNanu&num=2016008

Check your logs to see if your receiver is using SVN23/PRN32.

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Boven" <p.boven at xs4all.nl>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 7:12 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio 
> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to 
> their in-house standards.
> 
> Regards, Paul Boven.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Jan 26 11:32:27 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:32:27 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <67934.1453825947@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <56A78CE9.20200 at xs4all.nl>, Paul Boven writes:

>Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
>I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio 
>observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to 
>their in-house standards.

Here is a quick plot:

	http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/20160126_gps.svg

The two receivers see the same (number of) satelites, but the jumps
happen at widely different times.

Magnitude around 14 microseconds seems confirmed.

These are both Oncore timing receivers.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Tue Jan 26 11:42:40 2016
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:42:40 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <67934.1453825947@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <3407F8A05F0443D98B5513CF216EED79@pc52>

The GPSCon "International Z3801A web plot" page is still active:

http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_websites_list.htm

Most of the entries are stale but here's a few that show the recent glitch nicely:

http://www.shaunmerrigan.info/timeandfreq/gpscon/gpsstat.htm
http://www.shaunmerrigan.info/timeandfreq/gpscon1/gpsstat.htm
http://www.shaunmerrigan.info/timeandfreq/gpscon2/gpsstat.htm

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>; "Paul Boven" <p.boven at xs4all.nl>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?


> --------
> In message <56A78CE9.20200 at xs4all.nl>, Paul Boven writes:
> 
>>Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
>>I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio 
>>observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to 
>>their in-house standards.
> 
> Here is a quick plot:
> 
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/20160126_gps.svg
> 
> The two receivers see the same (number of) satelites, but the jumps
> happen at widely different times.
> 
> Magnitude around 14 microseconds seems confirmed.
> 
> These are both Oncore timing receivers.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From newell+timenuts at n5tnl.com  Tue Jan 26 12:20:33 2016
From: newell+timenuts at n5tnl.com (Scott Newell)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:20:33 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20160126172038.048DD6433B@n5tnl.com>

At 09:12 AM 1/26/2016, Paul Boven wrote:

>Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?

My tbolt locked ntp server saw an unusual spike of about that 
magnitude just after 00:00 1-26-2016 UTC. (The bump at 40000 seconds 
is from the daily backup run.)

-- 
newell  N5TNL
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From cfharris at erols.com  Tue Jan 26 11:59:12 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:59:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <9643a8.4e52d122.43d8e803@aol.com>
References: <9643a8.4e52d122.43d8e803@aol.com>
Message-ID: <56A7A5E0.7070800@erols.com>

One last post on this off topic subject: Eyes.

The younger folk will think eye problems amount to near
or farsightedness... maybe a little astigmatism.  The
slightly older folk (37+) will know about presbyopia...
the loss of your close working focus... your arms get
shorter.

Then there are the 60+ folks who know about a whole new
spectrum of problems.  For you the macular degeneration,
for me the detached vitreous humor from my retina.

These result in holes in the vision, or ghosts and shadows
that float into and out of view.  Fun!

Microscopes cause problems with the 60+ kinds of vision
problems because they hold the eyes steady, and accentuate
the floaters and holes.  You can't just shift your eyes
and look around them because the scope needs each eye to
be accurately fixed on axis with the optical path for it
to work.

Fortunately there is a way out of this problem, and it is
a pretty cheap one too.  The little CCD or CMOS video camera,
and an LCD monitor.  This allows your eyes to look up, down
and around on the screen, and you get the needed
magnification, but because of the way your brain works, you
won't notice the floaters, and macular holes...  You just
look around them, and your brain fills in the gaps.  You do
lose your stereo optic distance clues, but there are more
expensive ways of correcting that too.

The more expensive solution is the Mantis, a large flat
screened stereo optic microscope that is supposed to help
provide the distance clues.  I haven't used one, but I have
heard good things from those that have.  Not exactly cheap,
but getting old has its costs.

You can work in SMD electronics when you get old.

-Chuck Harris

Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
> Chuck
> Thank you for your advice, I will print it out and when needed experiment.
> We use SMD.s and two of our tem members are very good at it, I do limited
> stuff  and have some tools but also a macular hole in one eye. In designs I
> try to stay  with solder able SMD's and we have projects like the AD9913
> which gets to the  limit what I will consider. I did not do the soldering.
> Bert

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 12:49:59 2016
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:49:59 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehavior
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tLdM6LAOWwFELn-ksz66XXvY-tJ5rHs7S2XfN8NZRKPWA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks guys. I'll hook it up to the regular power supply and let it cook
for a while. I have a uBlox board I want to check for jitter, but I'll need
that '3801 to check it against. The fun part will just have to wait.

From claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr  Tue Jan 26 11:39:40 2016
From: claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr (claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:39:40 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [time-nuts] 58503A does not track
In-Reply-To: <1361624396.15232777.1453822326764.JavaMail.root@zimbra13-e2.priv.proxad.net>
Message-ID: <1403951695.15414548.1453826380961.JavaMail.root@zimbra13-e2.priv.proxad.net>

Hello list !

I have a HP 58503A who  worked fine for two years. 
After a short power cut, it does not lock on GPS. I tried some commandsn  including :SYST:PRESET but nothing works

Here's a :SYSTEM:STATUS ? after the PRESET and after waiting a few hours :


------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------

SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
   Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
   Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
   Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
                                              Predict  --

ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
                   PRN  El  Az                UTC      16:06:43 [?] 29 Feb 2016
                   * 1  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
                   * 6  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
                   * 9  -- ---                Position ________________________
                   *14  -- ---                MODE     Survey:      0% complete
                   *22  -- ---                         Suspended: track <4 sats
                   *24  -- ---                INIT LAT N 596:30:43.423
                                              INIT LON E 596:31:10.845
ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track                      +21474708.00 m  (MSL)
HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK

I tried to set the date with :GPS:INIT:DATE 2016,01,26 but this command has no effect.

Setting the LAT and LON with :GPS:POS «myposition» works.

------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------
 
SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
   Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
   Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
   Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
                                              Predict  --
                                                
ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
                   PRN  El  Az                UTC      02:58:13 [?] 24 Mar 2016
                   * 3  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
                   * 4  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
                   * 8  -- ---                Position ________________________
                   * 9  -- ---                MODE     Hold
                   *23  -- ---                
                   *29  -- ---                LAT      N    blah blah
                                              LON      E    blah blah
ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track       HGT              +194.57 m  (MSL)
HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK 


But the unit is still not tracking, it sees the birds because the PRN are changing but
does not calculate the "El" and "Az"  ...

Here is the output of  :DIAGnostic:LOG:READ:ALL? 

Log 001:20160122.00:00:00:  Log cleared
Log 002:20160122.00:00:00:  System preset
Log 003:20160122.00:00:35:  Self-test failed
Log 004:20160122.00:12:38:  Position hold mode started

As you can see, the date is 2016-01-22, it's the date when the power cut happened .

And when I run  :GPSYSTEM:POSITION:SURVEY ONCE, I get the same first status with crazy
lattidude and longitude.


Finally a self test *TST? gives +0 and the ALARM LED and the LOCK LED are off.

I've tried with a second antenna and have the same problem :-(

Can someone give me an advice for this problem ? The receiver looks dead, no ?

Thanks in advance,


Claude

From charles.curry at chronos.co.uk  Tue Jan 26 11:43:08 2016
From: charles.curry at chronos.co.uk (Charles Curry)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:43:08 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS PRN 32
In-Reply-To: <D6774EB1463B4D5F8AB96D6B58EAE8A0@pc52>
Message-ID: <SVc5WUtQTSolTU9EQDlQMTU4ODIzNTQ3Nw@CHAZ-HP>

Tom

This is what I sent.... unchecked Rich Text (HTML) now

Has anyone noticed GPS problems today?

It looks like PRN32 / SVN 23 went faulty yesterday and was taken out of service last night at 22:00 ZULU

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?Do=gpsShowNanu&num=2016008

We've seen issues with a number of timing receivers so far.

Best Regards,

Charles
___________________________________________
Prof. Charles W T Curry BEng, CEng, MITP, FIET
Managing Director
Chronos Technology Ltd


http://www.chronos.co.uk/index.php/en/company-info/whos-who#CC
http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/charles-curry/0/b2/445

Switchboard: +44 (0)1594 862 200
Direct: +44 (0)1594 862 201
Mobile: +44 (0)7786 336 001

www.chronos.co.uk
www.gps-world.biz
www.taviga.co.uk


Skype Laptop: chascurry


This email has been sent to you by Chronos Technology Limited; Registered in England and Wales Number: 2056049; VAT Number: GB 791312044; Registered Office: Stowfield House, Upper Stowfield, Lydbrook, Gloucestershire, GL17 9PD.
All data and information contained in this e-mail is in confidence and is the copyright of Chronos Technology Limited and/or its Suppliers. No information contained in this e-mail may be released, republished or incorporated into any other work without the prior written consent of the discloser and/or copyright owner.

----------------------- Original Message -----------------------

From: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com>
To: "Charles Curry" <charles.curry at chronos.co.uk>
Cc: "John Ackerman" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:11:21 -0800
Subject: Re: GPS PRN 32

Hi Charles,

Your posting just now is completely blank (see below).
Was this an accident? Or perhaps your email client is configured for HTML-only instead of TEXT or TEXT+HTML.
Let me know if I can help.

Thanks,
/tvb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Curry" <charles.curry at chronos.co.uk>
To: "John Ackerman" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 7:26 AM
Subject: GPS PRN 32


>

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
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From GThorp at pascall.co.uk  Tue Jan 26 13:12:50 2016
From: GThorp at pascall.co.uk (Garry Thorp)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 18:12:50 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <9A22D3DC2D91624CBB597A0BAF9B94992D90D893@mail2.pascall.local>

Jim,

3) Input and output level (?????????)
the oscillator is a HCMOS output, so figure swinging about 3.5V


Any multiplier configuration will produce lots of different harmonics, and will need fairly serious filtering after it if you want a clean 100MHz.

If you have a 20MHz oscillator with CMOS output, it should produce a healthy component at 100MHz provided its output is reasonably symmetrical, say ~55:45 or better. The easiest (and probably lowest noise) approach might be to extract the 100MHz component directly. A common-base circuit such as the attached sketch would probably work OK.

Rin is needed to avoid overloading the CMOS output. The input tuned circuit Q could be made quite high, as its ESR can be incorporated into Rin. As this would take very little signal current from the oscillator at 20MHz or 60MHz, most of the CMOS output current capability would be available at 100MHz.

A common-emitter amplifier with a tuned emitter load would take less current from the oscillator, but probably isn't practical if you only have 5V regulated supply available.

Garry
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From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Tue Jan 26 14:12:47 2016
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 13:12:47 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1453827601.8994.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.5.1453827601.8994.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <56A7C52F.7060408@sasktel.net>

Here's what my Z3801A saw using Z38XX.  00:00 on the graph = 06:00 UTC.  
My location is ~N50, W104.  I don't know what SVNs were used. I'm not 
logging that data.

Ed

On 2016-01-26 11:00 AM, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote:
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:12:41 +0100
> From: Paul Boven <p.boven at xs4all.nl>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
> Message-ID: <56A78CE9.20200 at xs4all.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio
> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to
> their in-house standards.
>
> Regards, Paul Boven.
>

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From walter2 at sphere.bc.ca  Tue Jan 26 14:52:41 2016
From: walter2 at sphere.bc.ca (walter shawlee 2)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 11:52:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] what is acceptable harmonic content & level for a 10Mhz
	standard?
Message-ID: <56A7CE89.1060003@sphere.bc.ca>

I have been working on a compact portable 10Mhz bench standard
using both an FE FE5680A Rb oscillator and an Oscilloquartz ovenized
crystal oscillator.  I was curious to see how their short and long term stability
would work out, and I needed something to drive my 6502 amp to pipe the signal 
to some bench instruments which could benefit from better master references.  
all of these were inexpensive ebay acquisitions, so the total cost to make the 
package is maybe $250 plus a few weekends work and a left-over but nice looking 
tilt-bail case & Condor 65W switching power supply.
I drove everything from some independently, heavily post-filtered +15VDC power.

to try and keep any unexpected interaction to a minimum, the outputs exit though 
floating BNCs, so they don't have an unwanted ground loop at the case.  only the 
FE5680A is physically grounded to the case for heatsinking, so the connection is 
a single point.

while looking at the outputs of the two sources, I saw some surprising 20Mhz 
harmonic content on my spectrum analyzer.  I expected a bit from the 5680A, but 
it was actually much bigger on the OCXO, which had a chinese add-on dual buffer 
board attached.  I had thought there might be some, so I also scored some little 
10Mhz BP filters at the same time and did some before/after tests.

here's what I got:

FE5680A 10Mhz (+5dBm), 20Mhz (-55dBm)  (with filter)

OCXO       10Mhz (-2dBm), 20Mhz (-35dBm) as received
OCXO       10Mhz (-5dBm), 20Mhz (-60dBm) with filter

I hate to distribute any spurious RF around the lab, so I thought less harmonic 
content was the better plan, although I realize that as a counter time base 
source, it is probably irrelevant, but might play a role in my 8656B RF 
generator as added unwanted spurs.  I was a bit disturbed by the low level and 
harmonics from the OCXO assembly, so I thought some external comments about 
norms were needed at this point before I go further.

what kind of harmonic content does everyone else see in their 10Mhz standards?  
the -5dBm level seems too low to me, I am used to 0 to +5-7dBm from sources, but 
I have not tried to run it through the distribution amp yet, so possibly that's 
enough.  I can try and dig into the totally undocumented surface mounted chinese 
add-on board to improve things, and increase the level, but hard to say what 
will happen there.

all comments and data welcome.
all the best,
walter



-- 
Walter Shawlee 2, President
Sphere Research Corporation
3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Jan 26 15:35:30 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:35:30 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS PRN 32
In-Reply-To: <SVc5WUtQTSolTU9EQDlQMTU4ODIzNTQ3Nw@CHAZ-HP>
References: <SVc5WUtQTSolTU9EQDlQMTU4ODIzNTQ3Nw@CHAZ-HP>
Message-ID: <56A7D892.8080206@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

It seems that several SVNs (PRN 2, 6, 7, 9 and 23) got feed bad data. 
This is not the first instance, it seems that single SVNs have had bad 
data the last couple of days.

When our 4 GPS receivers at work got "hit" at midnight, it got our 
attention. Interestingly enough they did not experience issues at the 
same time, it just started about the same time.

Several of my customers also reported issues. Turns out that more people 
seen this.

It will be interesting when a proper analysis comes on this.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/26/2016 05:43 PM, Charles Curry wrote:
> Tom
>
> This is what I sent.... unchecked Rich Text (HTML) now
>
> Has anyone noticed GPS problems today?
>
> It looks like PRN32 / SVN 23 went faulty yesterday and was taken out of service last night at 22:00 ZULU
>
> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?Do=gpsShowNanu&num=2016008
>
> We've seen issues with a number of timing receivers so far.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Charles
> ___________________________________________
> Prof. Charles W T Curry BEng, CEng, MITP, FIET
> Managing Director
> Chronos Technology Ltd
>
>
> http://www.chronos.co.uk/index.php/en/company-info/whos-who#CC
> http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/charles-curry/0/b2/445
>
> Switchboard: +44 (0)1594 862 200
> Direct: +44 (0)1594 862 201
> Mobile: +44 (0)7786 336 001
>
> www.chronos.co.uk
> www.gps-world.biz
> www.taviga.co.uk
>
>
> Skype Laptop: chascurry
>
>
> This email has been sent to you by Chronos Technology Limited; Registered in England and Wales Number: 2056049; VAT Number: GB 791312044; Registered Office: Stowfield House, Upper Stowfield, Lydbrook, Gloucestershire, GL17 9PD.
> All data and information contained in this e-mail is in confidence and is the copyright of Chronos Technology Limited and/or its Suppliers. No information contained in this e-mail may be released, republished or incorporated into any other work without the prior written consent of the discloser and/or copyright owner.
>
> ----------------------- Original Message -----------------------
>
> From: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com>
> To: "Charles Curry" <charles.curry at chronos.co.uk>
> Cc: "John Ackerman" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:11:21 -0800
> Subject: Re: GPS PRN 32
>
> Hi Charles,
>
> Your posting just now is completely blank (see below).
> Was this an accident? Or perhaps your email client is configured for HTML-only instead of TEXT or TEXT+HTML.
> Let me know if I can help.
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Curry" <charles.curry at chronos.co.uk>
> To: "John Ackerman" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 7:26 AM
> Subject: GPS PRN 32
>
>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 16:40:30 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 16:40:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] what is acceptable harmonic content & level for a
 10Mhz standard?
In-Reply-To: <56A7CE89.1060003@sphere.bc.ca>
References: <56A7CE89.1060003@sphere.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiJz_qh=Oe5VyH0hHbfxGfC1TXRgae9Lmj+t2if+4JGEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Walter that OCXO sure looks odd I would expect unfiltered to be a lot
better then that. I would guess that several possibilities exist.
The actual crystal is a 5 MHz and it feeds a doubler.
The chain has something thats gone non-linear. -5dbm seems low to me.
Oscilloquartz have a very fine reputation on time-nuts. I do not own one
nor most likely never will.
So you are right to ask and suspect.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:52 PM, walter shawlee 2 <walter2 at sphere.bc.ca>
wrote:

> I have been working on a compact portable 10Mhz bench standard
> using both an FE FE5680A Rb oscillator and an Oscilloquartz ovenized
> crystal oscillator.  I was curious to see how their short and long term
> stability
> would work out, and I needed something to drive my 6502 amp to pipe the
> signal to some bench instruments which could benefit from better master
> references.  all of these were inexpensive ebay acquisitions, so the total
> cost to make the package is maybe $250 plus a few weekends work and a
> left-over but nice looking tilt-bail case & Condor 65W switching power
> supply.
> I drove everything from some independently, heavily post-filtered +15VDC
> power.
>
> to try and keep any unexpected interaction to a minimum, the outputs exit
> though floating BNCs, so they don't have an unwanted ground loop at the
> case.  only the FE5680A is physically grounded to the case for heatsinking,
> so the connection is a single point.
>
> while looking at the outputs of the two sources, I saw some surprising
> 20Mhz harmonic content on my spectrum analyzer.  I expected a bit from the
> 5680A, but it was actually much bigger on the OCXO, which had a chinese
> add-on dual buffer board attached.  I had thought there might be some, so I
> also scored some little 10Mhz BP filters at the same time and did some
> before/after tests.
>
> here's what I got:
>
> FE5680A 10Mhz (+5dBm), 20Mhz (-55dBm)  (with filter)
>
> OCXO       10Mhz (-2dBm), 20Mhz (-35dBm) as received
> OCXO       10Mhz (-5dBm), 20Mhz (-60dBm) with filter
>
> I hate to distribute any spurious RF around the lab, so I thought less
> harmonic content was the better plan, although I realize that as a counter
> time base source, it is probably irrelevant, but might play a role in my
> 8656B RF generator as added unwanted spurs.  I was a bit disturbed by the
> low level and harmonics from the OCXO assembly, so I thought some external
> comments about norms were needed at this point before I go further.
>
> what kind of harmonic content does everyone else see in their 10Mhz
> standards?  the -5dBm level seems too low to me, I am used to 0 to +5-7dBm
> from sources, but I have not tried to run it through the distribution amp
> yet, so possibly that's enough.  I can try and dig into the totally
> undocumented surface mounted chinese add-on board to improve things, and
> increase the level, but hard to say what will happen there.
>
> all comments and data welcome.
> all the best,
> walter
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Shawlee 2, President
> Sphere Research Corporation
> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
> walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bpl521 at outlook.com  Tue Jan 26 16:52:57 2016
From: bpl521 at outlook.com (Bryan _)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 13:52:57 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <56A71747.8040605@erols.com>
References: <270ebd.5a9a0638.43d83a6a@aol.com>,<56A71747.8040605@erols.com>
Message-ID: <BAY180-W51FEBED4C4BE6C8408A35294D80@phx.gbl>

Chuck, what do you use for a hot air source. The good ones are very expensive. Wonder if there is something for the hobbyist. Have seen a few repair videos where they used just used a hot air stripper.
I had to yank a couple SMD resistors off a board the other day and had to use two soldering irons at each end of the resistor <g>. If they are small enough you can add a glob of solder to the whole resistor, so both ends will melt.
Cheers

-=Bryan=-

> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> From: cfharris at erols.com
> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 01:50:47 -0500
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
> 
> Hi Bert,
> 
> I have noticed that if I have the right magnification,
> I can do amazing things.  Even the tiny age related
> tremors that naturally occur in my hands reduce with
> magnification.  The brain is a marvelous  servo mechanism.
> 
> Get a good 40x-80x zoom stereo microscope meant for
> dissection, the type mounted on a boom, and I would bet
> you too could deal with the small surface mount parts.
> 
> When I build with SMD, I always put all of the parts on
> the top side, and use solder paste.  I used to put lots
> of tiny dots out with a syringe that works a lot like a
> caulking gun... only smaller.  But I found that simply
> drawing a thin stripe of paste across the SMD pads
> on the board, and then setting the part on the paste,
> works just fine.  The solder draws towards the pads, and
> leaves the space between the pins clear.  Occasionally
> there will be some tiny balls sitting between the pins,
> but they clean up when I clean the board with alcohol
> and a brush...not that they hurt anything anyway.
> 
> The chips self center while they are floating on the
> molten solder.  No need to touch them with a soldering
> iron, or anything else.
> 
> I use a lab grade hot plate to bring the board up to reflow
> temperature.  And I am off to the races.
> 
> For disassembly, I use an IR underboard heater, and a
> hot air source... about 1/8 inch diameter, and move it
> around the pin area until it melts, and then lift the
> part free.
> 
> To put parts on an already populated board, I pre heat
> the underside of the board to about 1/2-2/3 the way to
> the solder melting temperature, and use a little gentle
> hot air source to head the pads the rest of the way to
> molten.  No need for soldering irons.
> 
> Practice on junk boards until it becomes natural.
> 
> -Chuck Harris
> 
> Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
> > We have looked at the LMK devices but with my 74 years would not try to
> > solder it. There are other neat parts out there but again who is able to
> > solder  them.
> > Bert Kehren
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 		 	   		  

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Jan 26 17:15:43 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 23:15:43 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Noise of LT3042 vs ECL noise (was: Generating a solid
 PPS from 10Mhz source)
In-Reply-To: <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de>
References: <20160115095748.vl0uPkHN@smtp4o.mail.yandex.net>
 <9475631.5752840.1452849254502.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <569BC23A.3030400@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <20160126231543.884d23916385aade0f8d72fe@kinali.ch>

Moin,

On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 17:32:58 +0100
Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp at arcor.de> wrote:

> BTW the extra quiet reference of the LT3042 is a current source, so 
> there is no real justification for the repeated claims here that ECL
> must be noisy because of its integrated current source.

I had a closer look at the datasheet of the LT3042 and disagree with you
on this conclusion. Yes, the LT3042 uses a current source into a resistor
as reference. But the resistor is bypassed by a HUGE ceramic capacitor.
The resulting low-pass filter has a cut-off frequency in the low hertz
region, if not sub-hertz. Or to cite the datasheet:

---
One problem that conventional linear regulators face is
that the resistor divider setting the output voltage gains up
the reference noise. In contrast, the LT3042's unity-gain
follower architecture presents no gain from the SET pin
to the output. Therefore, if a capacitor bypasses the SET
pin resistor, then the output noise is independent of the
programmed output voltage. The resultant output noise
is then set just by the error amplifier's noise -- typically
2nV/sqrt(Hz) from 10kHz to 1MHz and 0.8µVRMS in a 10Hz
to 100kHz bandwidth using a 4.7µF SET pin capacitor.
---

In contrast to that, the current sources in ECL circuits do not have a
bypass capacitor. Or rather, you cannot bypass the current source itself
as it is used as an infinitely large resistor for the differential "pairs"
in the ECL circuit.


If you decrease the value of the by-pass capacitor such that you get
a low pass cut-off frequency in the, let's say, 100Hz range, then you
should see the effect clearly in your measurements.



			Attila Kinali
-- 
Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
		-- unknown

From richard at karlquist.com  Tue Jan 26 17:16:02 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 14:16:02 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] what is acceptable harmonic content & level for a
 10Mhz standard?
In-Reply-To: <56A7CE89.1060003@sphere.bc.ca>
References: <56A7CE89.1060003@sphere.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <56A7F022.6010709@karlquist.com>



On 1/26/2016 11:52 AM, walter shawlee 2 wrote:
> I have been working on a compact portable 10Mhz bench standard
> using both an FE FE5680A Rb oscillator and an Oscilloquartz ovenized

It is important for a 10 MHz source to launch a pure sine wave
and also to have an accurate 50 ohm impedance at 10 MHz and its
harmonics.  This is because a sine wave is the only waveform
having the property that it is immune from distortion due to
reflections from poorly matched loads.  IE, sine wave with
multipath resolves again to a sine wave.  It is important to
have a broadband 50 ohm output impedance to absorb reflections
from loads, especially load-generated harmonics.  You didn't
ask, but you also want a lot of reverse isolation to avoid
pulling the OCXO.  All of these were addressed in the design
of the output section of the 5071A cesium standard.  It was
really quite non-trivial.  Specifically, the harmonics are
down over 80 dB.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

From radio.kd5ssj at gmail.com  Tue Jan 26 14:24:41 2016
From: radio.kd5ssj at gmail.com (Cash Olsen)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 12:24:41 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <CACgh6+4zWDa68xWeTsa1y7s8aTnKv5vRaWKw+R7-NR2KT2ijwA@mail.gmail.com>

About 10 years ago I demonstrated a Hot Air Reflow method that is simple
and needs no exotic tools and no heroic skills to solder surface mount
devices. I also supply the solder paste in a syringe with a modified
needle. The paste is Kester Easy Profile 256.

You can see my method at:
http://kd5ssj.com/solderpaste/smt-tools-and-process

You can order paste at: http://kd5ssj.com/solderpaste/smd-soldering

BTW the cost of the solder paste has been constant for ten years but the
cost of shipping is up more than 5x, the USPS just raised the cost of
shipping a padded envelope by about 25%.

--
S. Cash Olsen KD5SSJ
ARRL Technical Specialist

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 01:50:47 -0500
From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
        <time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
Message-ID: <56A71747.8040605 at erols.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Hi Bert,

I have noticed that if I have the right magnification,
I can do amazing things.  Even the tiny age related
tremors that naturally occur in my hands reduce with
magnification.  The brain is a marvelous  servo mechanism.

Get a good 40x-80x zoom stereo microscope meant for
dissection, the type mounted on a boom, and I would bet
you too could deal with the small surface mount parts.

When I build with SMD, I always put all of the parts on
the top side, and use solder paste.  I used to put lots
of tiny dots out with a syringe that works a lot like a
caulking gun... only smaller.  But I found that simply
drawing a thin stripe of paste across the SMD pads
on the board, and then setting the part on the paste,
works just fine.  The solder draws towards the pads, and
leaves the space between the pins clear.  Occasionally
there will be some tiny balls sitting between the pins,
but they clean up when I clean the board with alcohol
and a brush...not that they hurt anything anyway.

The chips self center while they are floating on the
molten solder.  No need to touch them with a soldering
iron, or anything else.

I use a lab grade hot plate to bring the board up to reflow
temperature.  And I am off to the races.

For disassembly, I use an IR underboard heater, and a
hot air source... about 1/8 inch diameter, and move it
around the pin area until it melts, and then lift the
part free.

To put parts on an already populated board, I pre heat
the underside of the board to about 1/2-2/3 the way to
the solder melting temperature, and use a little gentle
hot air source to head the pads the rest of the way to
molten.  No need for soldering irons.

Practice on junk boards until it becomes natural.

-Chuck Harris

Bert Kehren via time-nuts wrote:
> We have looked at the LMK devices but with my 74 years would not try to
> solder it. There are other neat parts out there but again who is able to
> solder  them.
> Bert Kehren

From martin.burnicki at burnicki.net  Tue Jan 26 17:46:43 2016
From: martin.burnicki at burnicki.net (Martin Burnicki)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 23:46:43 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>

Paul Boven wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio
> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to
> their in-house standards.

We were able to track this down today at Meinberg.

The problem was that some satellites were sending invalid UTC correction
parameters. The UTC correction parameter set not only contains current
leap second information but also coefficients (A0, A1, WNt, tot) for a
polynomial used to compensate the fractional difference between GPS time
and UTC(USNO).

Normally A0 (the constant offset) is very small, close to 0. WNt and tot
give the week number (truncated to 8 bits) and second-of-week for which
A0 is valid, i.e. the reference time for the time correction parameters.
WNt is currently about 89.

Today the faulty satellites sent about 13.7 microseconds for A0, and WNt
as well as tot were both 0. So when the GPS receiver updated its UTC
correction parameters from a faulty satellite the UTC correction jumped
from close to 0 to about 13.7 microseconds, which let the UTC time step,
and when the GPS receiver received the UTC parameter set from a healthy
satellite the UTC time stepped back.

We have recorded a few of the faulty subframe words. If someone is
interested I can provide more detailed information. However, I'm
currently out of the office and don't have the information here right now.

Martin


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Jan 26 18:06:52 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 18:06:52 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] what is acceptable harmonic content & level for a
	10Mhz standard?
In-Reply-To: <56A7CE89.1060003@sphere.bc.ca>
References: <56A7CE89.1060003@sphere.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <77000BF8-3038-492A-B406-FEE56045CE62@n1k.org>

Hi

If your OCXO is putting out less than 0 dbm, it’s broke. Given the way these parts are treated
in the salvage loop, damage is not unusual. There are a *lot* of examples of surplus OCXO’s
with low output. Normally it’s a damaged output cap or something like it.  I’ve seen roughly half the units
in some lots come in that way ….

Bob

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 2:52 PM, walter shawlee 2 <walter2 at sphere.bc.ca> wrote:
> 
> I have been working on a compact portable 10Mhz bench standard
> using both an FE FE5680A Rb oscillator and an Oscilloquartz ovenized
> crystal oscillator.  I was curious to see how their short and long term stability
> would work out, and I needed something to drive my 6502 amp to pipe the signal to some bench instruments which could benefit from better master references.  all of these were inexpensive ebay acquisitions, so the total cost to make the package is maybe $250 plus a few weekends work and a left-over but nice looking tilt-bail case & Condor 65W switching power supply.
> I drove everything from some independently, heavily post-filtered +15VDC power.
> 
> to try and keep any unexpected interaction to a minimum, the outputs exit though floating BNCs, so they don't have an unwanted ground loop at the case.  only the FE5680A is physically grounded to the case for heatsinking, so the connection is a single point.
> 
> while looking at the outputs of the two sources, I saw some surprising 20Mhz harmonic content on my spectrum analyzer.  I expected a bit from the 5680A, but it was actually much bigger on the OCXO, which had a chinese add-on dual buffer board attached.  I had thought there might be some, so I also scored some little 10Mhz BP filters at the same time and did some before/after tests.
> 
> here's what I got:
> 
> FE5680A 10Mhz (+5dBm), 20Mhz (-55dBm)  (with filter)
> 
> OCXO       10Mhz (-2dBm), 20Mhz (-35dBm) as received
> OCXO       10Mhz (-5dBm), 20Mhz (-60dBm) with filter
> 
> I hate to distribute any spurious RF around the lab, so I thought less harmonic content was the better plan, although I realize that as a counter time base source, it is probably irrelevant, but might play a role in my 8656B RF generator as added unwanted spurs.  I was a bit disturbed by the low level and harmonics from the OCXO assembly, so I thought some external comments about norms were needed at this point before I go further.
> 
> what kind of harmonic content does everyone else see in their 10Mhz standards?  the -5dBm level seems too low to me, I am used to 0 to +5-7dBm from sources, but I have not tried to run it through the distribution amp yet, so possibly that's enough.  I can try and dig into the totally undocumented surface mounted chinese add-on board to improve things, and increase the level, but hard to say what will happen there.
> 
> all comments and data welcome.
> all the best,
> walter
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Walter Shawlee 2, President
> Sphere Research Corporation
> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
> walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Jan 26 19:15:53 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 01:15:53 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
Message-ID: <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

On 01/26/2016 11:46 PM, Martin Burnicki wrote:
> Paul Boven wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
>> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio
>> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to
>> their in-house standards.
>
> We were able to track this down today at Meinberg.
>
> The problem was that some satellites were sending invalid UTC correction
> parameters. The UTC correction parameter set not only contains current
> leap second information but also coefficients (A0, A1, WNt, tot) for a
> polynomial used to compensate the fractional difference between GPS time
> and UTC(USNO).
>
> Normally A0 (the constant offset) is very small, close to 0. WNt and tot
> give the week number (truncated to 8 bits) and second-of-week for which
> A0 is valid, i.e. the reference time for the time correction parameters.
> WNt is currently about 89.
>
> Today the faulty satellites sent about 13.7 microseconds for A0, and WNt
> as well as tot were both 0. So when the GPS receiver updated its UTC
> correction parameters from a faulty satellite the UTC correction jumped
> from close to 0 to about 13.7 microseconds, which let the UTC time step,
> and when the GPS receiver received the UTC parameter set from a healthy
> satellite the UTC time stepped back.
>
> We have recorded a few of the faulty subframe words. If someone is
> interested I can provide more detailed information. However, I'm
> currently out of the office and don't have the information here right now.

You know I want more details. ;-)

I did see the report you guys sent to the USCG, good work there and good 
report.

I also some another report showing issues with other SVNs.

Cheers,
Magnus

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Tue Jan 26 19:22:46 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:22:46 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS PRN 32
In-Reply-To: <56A7D892.8080206@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <SVc5WUtQTSolTU9EQDlQMTU4ODIzNTQ3Nw@CHAZ-HP>
 <56A7D892.8080206@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <20160127032444.Oixesj9a@smtp3h.mail.yandex.net>

Magnus wrote:

>Interestingly enough they did not experience issues at the same 
>time, it just started about the same time.

Presumably, each rx would be affected when it added one or more 
corrupted satellites to the constellation it was using for its 
solution.  Since each rx makes those decisions independently, one 
would not expect them to exhibit problems in exact synchrony.

Best regards,

Charles



From xaos at darksmile.net  Tue Jan 26 17:59:28 2016
From: xaos at darksmile.net (xaos)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 17:59:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <20160126172038.048DD6433B@n5tnl.com>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <20160126172038.048DD6433B@n5tnl.com>
Message-ID: <56A7FA50.4060007@darksmile.net>

Slashdot got it.

http://it.slashdot.org/story/16/01/26/1735223/discrepancy-detected-in-gps-time

On 01/26/2016 12:20 PM, Scott Newell wrote:
> At 09:12 AM 1/26/2016, Paul Boven wrote:
>
>> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
>
> My tbolt locked ntp server saw an unusual spike of about that
> magnitude just after 00:00 1-26-2016 UTC. (The bump at 40000 seconds
> is from the daily backup run.)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From timenut at metachaos.net  Tue Jan 26 19:04:10 2016
From: timenut at metachaos.net (timenut at metachaos.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:04:10 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>

Hi,

I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read about
5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably using a
LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one affordably). I
have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since they all
appear to ship one or the other randomly).

Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope that I
am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am waiting
on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it calibrated.
All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish fixing
my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording program to
use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real time. I
interrupted that project to work on the scope.

In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this and
generally to learn more.

So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you know
the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just about
everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities, various AI
programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and much
more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have used many
languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have also
written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal logic
than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism and
abstraction come naturally to me.

During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I have
sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no education
in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money - it IS
a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start doing
hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything similar,
so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in theory,
but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right" choice.
It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases, the
names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be an
experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.

I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed or
built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably well,
but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every time
I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use. So, I
have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every day. I'm
the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more input,
more input"!                                           6.02059991327962

Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of week,
etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy has
always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in high
school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being able to
timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I am
also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to build
a GPSDO and my questions.

I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of 10.
It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my DMM, my
scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and watts.
So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm. If I
knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve the
values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I have
attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I don't get
a consistent value (probably because those statements were approximations and
not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm doubles
the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an approximation.
It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the zero
value appears to be different for different applications. In some it appears
to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...

   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic scaling
      (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying value
      across all applications?

   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why not
      just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW? There
      does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic scale
      for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
      Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a "real"
      value to actually do anything with it.

I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are two
basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate that
one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen "GPS
Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference between 
an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.

   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS Timing
      Reference antenna? What features are of interest?

   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the use
      of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make use
      of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
      information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using a
      standard GPS antenna.

Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is potentially
more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some carrier
phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased accuracy.
And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and GLASNOS to
improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a GPS
receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an amateur so
I am most likely restricted by available receivers.

I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something or
another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I think
that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the following.

   1. It is an interesting project.

   2. It is an educational project.

   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently or
      better.

   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
      available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.

   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but rather
      by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several hundred
      dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50 here
      and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.


Mike







From sandeenpa at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 26 23:08:01 2016
From: sandeenpa at yahoo.com (Perry Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 04:08:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
References: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,
Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is - why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the counter with way less effort…..
Well, I have two reasons not to.
First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing still was too hot.
IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it will be a while before I can work on mine.
I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors, install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the afore mentioned.
I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before. And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
Regards,
Perrier

From jltran at att.net  Wed Jan 27 00:16:10 2016
From: jltran at att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 23:16:10 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] [Bulk] Re:  GPS PRN 32
In-Reply-To: <20160127032444.Oixesj9a@smtp3h.mail.yandex.net>
References: <SVc5WUtQTSolTU9EQDlQMTU4ODIzNTQ3Nw@CHAZ-HP>
 <56A7D892.8080206@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <20160127032444.Oixesj9a@smtp3h.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <015e01d158c1$d68f1a10$83ad4e30$@att.net>

I don't know if this related or not but my Z3816A (with Symmetricom SatStat) is displaying the proper time but a date of 12 Sep 2035, tracking PRN 1, 7, 17, 19, 28 and 30.

My TBolt (with Lady Heather) is displaying proper time and date, tracking 1, 7, 11, 17, 19, 28 and 30

I 'cycled' power on the Z3816A but it came up with the same erroneous date again.  TFOM is 3 and FFOM is 0.

I'm going to open the unit, remove the 'back up' battery and let it 'rediscover' itself and see what happens.  I tried to set the date via command but no joy.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Charles Steinmetz
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 6:23 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [time-nuts] GPS PRN 32

Magnus wrote:

>Interestingly enough they did not experience issues at the same time, 
>it just started about the same time.

Presumably, each rx would be affected when it added one or more corrupted satellites to the constellation it was using for its solution.  Since each rx makes those decisions independently, one would not expect them to exhibit problems in exact synchrony.

Best regards,

Charles


_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


From charles.curry at chronos.co.uk  Wed Jan 27 03:38:45 2016
From: charles.curry at chronos.co.uk (Charles Curry)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:38:45 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts]  GPS PRN 32
Message-ID: <SVdCTVFSTiRbJDk5QDlQMTY0NTU3MzUzNQ@CHAZ-HP>

Update on PRN 32 / SVN 23

According to the NANU this was decommissioned at 22:00 on the 25th. It was 25 years old http://archive.is/a8GI

Some timing receivers experienced problems, some did not. Don't know why that is yet.

So far our count is 8 different GPS timing receivers experiencing problems - ranging from mid '90's models, but still in service to the latest new devices. Problems included loss of lock, squelching of outputs, pulling the frequency off and massive pps jumps. In one case the output of a receiver was so bad it was rejected by the equipment it was feeding but the receiver did not alarm!

A couple of units in my lab, based on the latest multi-constellation engine from a major supplier, one with Rb one with CSAC, exhibited 5 or 6 phase jump events from about 1:45 am until 12:30pm on the 26th. Our support team was kept busy from about 2 am on the 26th with at least 7 of our timing equipment customers reporting GPS errors.

It looks like bad ephemeris was being broadcast from some satellites.

I would say this is a similar problem to the April 1st 2014 Glonass outage reported here http://gpsworld.com/the-system-glonass-in-april-what-went-wrong/

Charles
charles.curry at chronos.co.uk




______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
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From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jan 27 03:51:19 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 08:51:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1764116886.939111.1453884679305.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Just make sure that the airflow around the OXCO isnt too great or the oven temperature regulation will suffer.
Bruce
 

    On Wednesday, 27 January 2016 8:02 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
 

 Hi,
Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem.. The question is - why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the counter with way less effort…..
Well, I have two reasons not to.
First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing still was too hot.
IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it will be a while before I can work on mine.
I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors, install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the afore mentioned.
I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before. And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
Regards,
Perrier
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From time at radio.sent.com  Wed Jan 27 03:51:18 2016
From: time at radio.sent.com (Bill Byrom)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 02:51:18 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
Message-ID: <1453884678.1165472.503762546.251CE763@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Hi, MIke. I used the university CDC6400/6600 supercomputer while in engineering school with punch cards or Teletypes and was familiar with S-100 vintage equipment. Somewhere I may still have a MIcrosoft BASIC pre MS-DOS (HDOS or CP/M) looseleaf manual. I haven't retired yet, but have been an Application Engineer at Tektronix for nearly 30 years. So I can appreciate your mindset. I'm going to only answer two of your questions:

1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic
   scaling   (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent
   underlying value   across all applications?

2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why
   not   just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses
   50mW? There   does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a
   logarithmic scale   for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a
   small range.   Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic
   value to a "real"   value to actually do anything with it.

RF and audio (including telephone) types have used logarithmic (dB)
units for many decades. There is often a need to discuss thermal noise
levels and transmitter power levels in the same circuit, which can lead
to very large voltage and power ratios. It's common to need to relate
voltages over a 10^10 range and powers over a 10^20 range
(1:0.00000000000000000001). Engineers and scientists like to use numeric
values which are easier to work with. You wouldn't want to specify a
hard drive size as 1,000,000,000,000 bytes but as 1 TB (ignoring the
power of 2 vs power of 10 issue). So we use "engineering units" (powers
of 1,000) for frequency (kHz, MHz, GHz, THz), voltage (pV, nV, uV, mV,
V, kV, MV, GV).

RF applications are more naturally dealt with in terms of power. The
noise generated in a resistor due to thermal agitation (Johnson-Nyquist
noise) is P = kTB, where P = power in watts, k = Boltzmanns constant
(1.28 x 10^-23 J/K), T = absolute temperature in Kelvins, and B is the
measurement bandwidth in Hertz. Many RF components are rated by power
dissipation. Historically it's been much easier to measure RF signals
levels by measuring thermal changes due to signal power.

The very large dynamic range required for characterizing sound and
telephone line levels and relating them to human perceived level change
led to the definition of the Bel (power ratio of 10, named for Alexander
Graham Bell). The decibel (1/10 Bel) is the logarithmic unit which is
used in practice. The noise delivered by a resistor to a matched load at
room temperature and normalized to a 1 Hz measurement bandwidth is about
-174 dBm/Hz.

The "m" in "dBm" stands for 1 mW (milliwatt). So 0 dBm = 1 mW. You
should read "dBm" as "decibels relative to 1 milliwatt". Since most
power levels in RF equipment tend to be within a couple of orders of
magnitude below or above a milliwatt, dBm is the main unit used for RF
equipment which can fit on your lab bench. In some cases it's convenient
to use logarithmic voltage units, and the common units are dBuV
(decibels relative to 1 microvolt), dBmV (decibels relative to 1
millivolt), or dBV (decibels relative to 1 volt). But except for cable
television and a few other applications (including noise levels at low
audio frequencies), dBm rules the RF world.

You are correct that linear non-logarithmic units work well when a small
range of values are being used. Amateur Radio handheld transmitters have
power ratings usually given in linear watts (100 mW, 1 W, 3 W, 5 W,
etc.). A HF (high frequency 3-30 MHz) transmitter may have an output
power meter marked in linear units of Watts. But the received signal
strength meter is marked in logarithmic units, since with an automatic
gain control the receiver dynamic range is many orders of magnitude too
large to be shown with linear units.

You happen to have test equipment which measures linear units. Many
voltmeters designed to measure audio levels are calibrated in dBmV. Most
RF signal level measurement instruments (power meters and spectrum
analyzers) are usually used with dB or dBm scaling. Since the ratio of
RF signals is often the main measurement of interest (such as harmonic
or intermodulation level), spectrum analyzers are usually set up with a
a variable full scale value (reference level) and a dB ratio vertical
scale. The horizontal scale of a spectrum analyzer is usually linear
frequency, but in many cases can be changed to logarithmic frequency.

Modern oscilloscopes (those made in the past 20 years) digitize the
voltage waveform, and they can easily show RMS voltage and even power
levels. For many RF measurements the oscilloscope uses an FFT to create
a spectrum display scaled in dBm. A DMM is not used to measure RF
levels, but RF power meters directly display dBm power, as also used by
spectrum analyzers.

So the reason that your test equipment doesn't produce measurements in
the same units commonly used by RF engineers is that you don't have
modern RF test equipment, but rather old non-RF measurement instruments.
That oscilloscope was introduced 27 years ago and many repair parts have
not been available for many years. I own some much older Tektronix
scopes and other equipment, but don't use oscilloscopes for general
purpose RF measurements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

--
Bill Byrom N5BB
 
 
 
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, at 06:04 PM, timenut at metachaos.net wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read about
> 5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably
> using a
> LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one
> affordably). I
> have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since they
> all
> appear to ship one or the other randomly).
>  
> Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
> desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope
> that I
> am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am
> waiting
> on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it
> calibrated.
> All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish
> fixing
> my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording program
> to
> use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real
> time. I
> interrupted that project to work on the scope.
>  
> In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
> things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this
> and
> generally to learn more.
>  
> So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you
> know
> the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just
> about
> everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities,
> various AI
> programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and
> much
> more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have used
> many
> languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have also
> written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
> although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
> decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal
> logic
> than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism and
> abstraction come naturally to me.
>  
> During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I
> have
> sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no
> education
> in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money -
> it IS
> a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start
> doing
> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything
> similar,
> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in
> theory,
> but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
> determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right"
> choice.
> It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases,
> the
> names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be
> an
> experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
>  
> I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed or
> built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
> especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably
> well,
> but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every
> time
> I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
> available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use. So,
> I
> have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every
> day. I'm
> the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more
> input,
> more input"!                                           6.02059991327962
>  
> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of
> week,
> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy
> has
> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in
> high
> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being
> able to
> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I
> am
> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to
> build
> a GPSDO and my questions.
>  
> I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
> understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of
> 10.
> It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my DMM,
> my
> scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and
> watts.
> So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm.
> If I
> knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve
> the
> values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I
> have
> attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I don't
> get
> a consistent value (probably because those statements were approximations
> and
> not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm
> doubles
> the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an
> approximation.
> It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the
> zero
> value appears to be different for different applications. In some it
> appears
> to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...
>  
>   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic
>   scaling
>       (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying
>       value
>       across all applications?
>  
>   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why
>   not
>       just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW?
>       There
>       does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic
>       scale
>       for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
>       Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a
>       "real"
>       value to actually do anything with it.
>  
> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are
> two
> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate
> that
> one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen
> "GPS
> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference
> between
> an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.
>  
>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS
>   Timing
>       Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
>  
>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the
>   use
>       of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make
>       use
>       of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>       information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using
>       a
>       standard GPS antenna.
>  
> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is
> potentially
> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
> receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
> increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some
> carrier
> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased
> accuracy.
> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and
> GLASNOS to
> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a GPS
> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an
> amateur so
> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
>  
> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something
> or
> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I
> think
> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the
> following.
>  
>   1. It is an interesting project.
>  
>   2. It is an educational project.
>  
>   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently
>   or
>       better.
>  
>   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
>       available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.
>  
>   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but
>   rather
>       by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several
>       hundred
>       dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50
>       here
>       and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.
>  
>  
> Mike
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> _________________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
 

From timenut at metachaos.net  Tue Jan 26 22:20:23 2016
From: timenut at metachaos.net (timenut at metachaos.net)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 22:20:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <56A7D892.8080206@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <SVc5WUtQTSolTU9EQDlQMTU4ODIzNTQ3Nw@CHAZ-HP>
 <56A7D892.8080206@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1808477034.20160126222023@metachaos.net>

Ha!

I finally answered one of my questions that has been bugging me!

I was taking dBm as the definition of voltage - which it is, but only
round-about. The hidden variable is the assumed impedance of 50 ohms where 1mW
is the zero point for power. That is also why I wasn't getting consistent
answers - different application areas I am interest in assumed different
values for the impedance and so my calculations were all over the place. I
found a reference in the PRS10 reference that tied it all together for me.


Mike


From wb6bnq at cox.net  Wed Jan 27 03:02:45 2016
From: wb6bnq at cox.net (wb6bnq)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 00:02:45 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <Av2M1s01652TSg001v2QTQ>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <Av2M1s01652TSg001v2QTQ>
Message-ID: <56A879A5.4090505@cox.net>

Hi Mike,

The element that you are missing is the impedance.  When you look at the 
common formula it refers to a ratio of power or voltage and the 
impedance is left out with the understanding that the impedance is equal 
for each power or voltage in the ratio.  The actual formula (for power) 
is DB = 10 X log10 ( E1^2 / R ) / ( E2^2 / R ).  Hint   Power P = E^2 / R.

In the RF world that impedance is 50 Ohms and ZERO DBm(illiwatts) is ONE 
milliwatt into 50 Ohms which is 0.223606797749979 Vrms.

In the audio world the reference impedance is 600 Ohms.  So ZERO DBu is 
One milliwatt into 600 Ohms which is 0.7745966692414834 Vrms.  More 
commonly referred to as 0.775 Vrms.

As for your GPS questions, I will leave that up to others to answer.

Bill....WB6BNQ


timenut at metachaos.net wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read about
>5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably using a
>LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one affordably). I
>have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since they all
>appear to ship one or the other randomly).
>
>Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
>desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope that I
>am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am waiting
>on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it calibrated.
>All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish fixing
>my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording program to
>use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real time. I
>interrupted that project to work on the scope.
>
>In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
>things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this and
>generally to learn more.
>
>So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you know
>the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just about
>everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities, various AI
>programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and much
>more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have used many
>languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have also
>written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
>although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
>decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal logic
>than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism and
>abstraction come naturally to me.
>
>During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I have
>sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no education
>in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money - it IS
>a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start doing
>hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything similar,
>so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in theory,
>but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
>determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right" choice.
>It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases, the
>names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be an
>experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
>
>I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed or
>built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
>especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably well,
>but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every time
>I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
>available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use. So, I
>have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every day. I'm
>the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more input,
>more input"!                                           6.02059991327962
>
>Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of week,
>etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy has
>always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in high
>school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being able to
>timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I am
>also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
>other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to build
>a GPSDO and my questions.
>
>I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
>understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of 10.
>It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my DMM, my
>scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and watts.
>So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm. If I
>knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve the
>values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I have
>attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I don't get
>a consistent value (probably because those statements were approximations and
>not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm doubles
>the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an approximation.
>It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the zero
>value appears to be different for different applications. In some it appears
>to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...
>
>   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic scaling
>      (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying value
>      across all applications?
>
>   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why not
>      just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW? There
>      does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic scale
>      for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
>      Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a "real"
>      value to actually do anything with it.
>
>I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are two
>basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
>distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate that
>one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen "GPS
>Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
>helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference between 
>an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.
>
>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS Timing
>      Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
>
>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the use
>      of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make use
>      of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>      information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using a
>      standard GPS antenna.
>
>Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is potentially
>more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
>receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
>increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some carrier
>phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased accuracy.
>And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and GLASNOS to
>improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a GPS
>receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an amateur so
>I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
>
>I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something or
>another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I think
>that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the following.
>
>   1. It is an interesting project.
>
>   2. It is an educational project.
>
>   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently or
>      better.
>
>   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
>      available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.
>
>   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but rather
>      by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several hundred
>      dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50 here
>      and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.
>
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>  
>


From herbert at 13thfloor.at  Wed Jan 27 04:52:57 2016
From: herbert at 13thfloor.at (Herbert Poetzl)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:52:57 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <BLU181-W601260F971E182A0DE8306CED80@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU181-W601260F971E182A0DE8306CED80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20160127095257.GE21211@MAIL.13thfloor.at>

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 06:57:54AM +0000, Mark Sims wrote:
> Actually not hard to do... lay out circuit board (free version
> of Eagle), have boards fab'd at Oshpark.com or your favorite
> Chinese proto shop (I like gojgo.com). Have solder paste
> stencil made at oshstencils.com. Squeege solder paste down with
> a credit card. Place components by hand. Reflow board with a
> modified toaster oven, electric skillet, hot air tool, etc.

Because I build and solder SMD boards on a regular basis,
I would like to add a few hints and tricks here which can 
simplify the task significantly:

For one-sided designs, the skillet method is really simple
and if the temperature is right, gives excellent results.

There are a bunch of ceramic heater elements (PTC) on eBay
and they often provide the perfect temperature stability
without the need for actual regulation (i.e. connect them
to a current limited power supply and it will reach a 
specific temperature at a given current).

As they are small, they work perfectly under a microscope
and you can not only watch the solder reflow, you can also
move the parts around in the liquid solder.

Most SMD components can also be soldered by hand with a
soldering iron, which doesn't even have to have a delicate
tip because there is an easy way with the help of (usually
red) thixotropic glue.

You first place a little dot or line of glue where the SMD
component will go (obviously not on the pads but between :) 
and then you place the component (down to 0201 imperial) 
with tweezers or a vacuum pick-up tool (doesn't need to be
extremely precise at this point) and now you can move the 
part into its final position with the help of an acupuncture 
needle.

Once all the components have been placed (the glue stays
liquid for several hours, probably days) and oriented/aligned
perfectly, you heat up the entire board to 120-160°C for
about 10 minutes which polymerizes the glue and thus fixes 
the parts in place.

You can then apply a good amount of solder on all the tiny 
pads to make sure that they are well connected. Heating the
entire PCB to around 150-180°C will help a lot and usually
doesn't harm the board or components (iron temperature can
be as low as 280°C which reduces the danger of overheating
dramatically). Do not worry about accidential bridges and
excessive solder, this will be fixed in the next step.

Once the parts have been soldered in place, you get a solder
wick (I prefer to use one of those highly flexible silicone
wires with hundreds of tiny conductors - you need to strip
it down to the copper wires first) and some flux to remove 
excessive solder from the joints.

After that, clean up the board (i.e. remove flux and other
stuff) with a flux remover or alcohol (isopropanol).

Here a few examples what can be done without hot air gun or 
reflow oven:

http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/pmod_assembled_top_600dpi.png
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/pmod_assembled_bottom_600dpi.png
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/pmod_clock_nosma.png
https://wiki.apertus.org/images/4/42/Axiom_Beta_Plugin_Module_1x_HDMI_v0.4_BOT.jpg
https://wiki.apertus.org/images/c/c0/BetaSensorBoardZIF_0.18_2.jpg
https://wiki.apertus.org/images/d/da/BetaMainboard_0.32_BOTTOM.jpg
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/axiom_beta_power_board_v0.18_r1.0_fix01.jpg
http://vserver.13thfloor.at/Stuff/AXIOM/BETA/axiom_beta_power_board_v0.18_r1.0_fix02.jpg

And some links to the mentioned helpers:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PTC-heating-element-100W-AC-DC-12V-constant-temperature-60-21mm-/151727264825
www.ebay.com/itm/AC-DC-12V-40W-PTC-Heater-Element-Thermostat-Heating-Plate-for-Warmer-Hot-Melter-/252212420224
www.ebay.com/itm/1Pc-40g-30mL-SMD-SMT-PCB-BGA-IC-Stencil-Paste-Dispenser-Red-Glue-Effective-Work-/321845571034
http://uk.farnell.com/multi-contact/60-7180-21/litze-blank-hochflex-0-5qmm-tpe/dp/135276
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-BGA-SMD-Soldering-Paste-Flux-Grease-Volume-10cc-RMA-223-/281358896876
http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/ppc120/propower-flussmittelentfernerspray/dp/1736213

If you have any problems or general questions, do not
hesitate to email me.

Best,
Herbert

> If you want to get anywhere in electronics these days, you
> really need to get set up to do simple SMD work. It's not hard
> or expensive. The days of point to point wiring of vacuum
> tubes to terminal strips be looong gone. Through-hole and DIP
> packages are not far behind.
> 
> -------
> > There are other neat parts out there but again who is able to 
> solder  them. 		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 27 07:43:12 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 07:43:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
Message-ID: <B2669716-7E9B-4FBE-9E2D-707305693300@n1k.org>

Hi

Ok, so let me answer the questions you *should* have asked:

(They are in no particular order. Number 3 probably should come first)

1) Is the gear I have enough to do this project? 

No, you will need some sort of frequency  / time standard. An atomic
clock of some sort is pretty much a minimum. You probably also need
a working GPSDO (or set of them) for comparison as well. You will also 
need a working / modern precision counter that will give you data down 
in the < 100 ps range. 

2) How will this ultimately be built? 

At the very least, you will be building this with surface mount devices. 
If it’s a scratch build, you will be dealing with fine pitch parts. That gets
you into a whole bunch of gear. It also gets you into a very real “is this 
fun or not” sort of question. 

3) What *is* the goal? 

"I’m going to make dinner” is the start of a process. It’s not enough of a 
goal to accomplish the task. Starting the task with a general objective is fine.
It does need to be refined a bit before you go much further.  

Is this what most of us would call a GPSDO (self contained box) or is it
something with a PC in the middle of it? 

Is this an OCXO based “precision” device or is it something more simple?

Is a pure software solution good enough?

Each of those decisions (and that’s by no means a full list) will send you off 
in a very different direction. 

4) How long is this likely to take?

Best guess based on the others who have done the same thing - several 
years. 

5) How much is this likely to cost?

If done the way others have done it, several thousand dollars up to 
quite a bit more than that. 

6) How much research is involved?

Quite a bit. The information you need is scattered all over the place. Figure
that you likely will read at least several hundred papers. There is a whole 
statistical language that is unique to these gizmos. This is *not* a follow a 
set recipe sort of project. 

Lots of fun !!!

Bob




> On Jan 26, 2016, at 7:04 PM, timenut at metachaos.net wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read about
> 5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably using a
> LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one affordably). I
> have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since they all
> appear to ship one or the other randomly).
> 
> Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
> desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope that I
> am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am waiting
> on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it calibrated.
> All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish fixing
> my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording program to
> use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real time. I
> interrupted that project to work on the scope.
> 
> In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
> things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this and
> generally to learn more.
> 
> So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you know
> the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just about
> everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities, various AI
> programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and much
> more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have used many
> languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have also
> written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
> although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
> decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal logic
> than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism and
> abstraction come naturally to me.
> 
> During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I have
> sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no education
> in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money - it IS
> a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start doing
> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything similar,
> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in theory,
> but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
> determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right" choice.
> It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases, the
> names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be an
> experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
> 
> I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed or
> built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
> especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably well,
> but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every time
> I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
> available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use. So, I
> have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every day. I'm
> the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more input,
> more input"!                                           6.02059991327962
> 
> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of week,
> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy has
> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in high
> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being able to
> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I am
> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to build
> a GPSDO and my questions.
> 
> I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
> understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of 10.
> It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my DMM, my
> scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and watts.
> So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm. If I
> knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve the
> values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I have
> attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I don't get
> a consistent value (probably because those statements were approximations and
> not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm doubles
> the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an approximation.
> It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the zero
> value appears to be different for different applications. In some it appears
> to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...
> 
>   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic scaling
>      (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying value
>      across all applications?
> 
>   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why not
>      just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW? There
>      does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic scale
>      for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
>      Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a "real"
>      value to actually do anything with it.
> 
> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are two
> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate that
> one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen "GPS
> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference between 
> an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.
> 
>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS Timing
>      Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
> 
>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the use
>      of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make use
>      of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>      information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using a
>      standard GPS antenna.
> 
> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is potentially
> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
> receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
> increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some carrier
> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased accuracy.
> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and GLASNOS to
> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a GPS
> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an amateur so
> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
> 
> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something or
> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I think
> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the following.
> 
>   1. It is an interesting project.
> 
>   2. It is an educational project.
> 
>   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently or
>      better.
> 
>   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
>      available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.
> 
>   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but rather
>      by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several hundred
>      dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50 here
>      and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 27 07:46:42 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 07:46:42 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <69D771C3-A69A-48B6-BE3A-00C23FB71491@n1k.org>

Hi

Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.

Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s probably low). How many are people likely to buy?

If so how much would you pay for a working 5370? 

Bob


> On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is - why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the counter with way less effort…..
> Well, I have two reasons not to.
> First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
> Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
> Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing still was too hot.
> IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it will be a while before I can work on mine.
> I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors, install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the afore mentioned.
> I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before. And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
> Regards,
> Perrier
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From j99harman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 09:02:29 2016
From: j99harman at gmail.com (Jim Harman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:02:29 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <56A879A5.4090505@cox.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
	<56A879A5.4090505@cox.net>
Message-ID: <CAJGSnYKrMEmayBk--zMGUPV04oP7xPn8q-iCz+TY_9LHPCY7Zw@mail.gmail.com>

Another benefit of using dB vs Watts or Volts is that systems often consist
of a chain of elements with gains and losses. Working with gains and losses
in dB lets you calculate the signal level at any point along the way and
the system gain by adding and subtracting rather than multiplying and
dividing.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 3:02 AM, wb6bnq <wb6bnq at cox.net> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> The element that you are missing is the impedance.  When you look at the
> common formula it refers to a ratio of power or voltage and the impedance
> is left out with the understanding that the impedance is equal for each
> power or voltage in the ratio.  The actual formula (for power) is DB = 10 X
> log10 ( E1^2 / R ) / ( E2^2 / R ).  Hint   Power P = E^2 / R.
>
> In the RF world that impedance is 50 Ohms and ZERO DBm(illiwatts) is ONE
> milliwatt into 50 Ohms which is 0.223606797749979 Vrms.
>
> In the audio world the reference impedance is 600 Ohms.  So ZERO DBu is
> One milliwatt into 600 Ohms which is 0.7745966692414834 Vrms.  More
> commonly referred to as 0.775 Vrms.
>
> As for your GPS questions, I will leave that up to others to answer.
>
> Bill....WB6BNQ
>
>
> timenut at metachaos.net wrote:
>
> Hi,
>>
>> I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read about
>> 5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably
>> using a
>> LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one
>> affordably). I
>> have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since they
>> all
>> appear to ship one or the other randomly).
>>
>> Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
>> desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope
>> that I
>> am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am
>> waiting
>> on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it
>> calibrated.
>> All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish
>> fixing
>> my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording program
>> to
>> use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real
>> time. I
>> interrupted that project to work on the scope.
>>
>> In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
>> things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this
>> and
>> generally to learn more.
>>
>> So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you
>> know
>> the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just
>> about
>> everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities,
>> various AI
>> programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and
>> much
>> more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have used
>> many
>> languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have also
>> written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
>> although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
>> decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal logic
>> than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism and
>> abstraction come naturally to me.
>>
>> During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I have
>> sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no
>> education
>> in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money -
>> it IS
>> a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start
>> doing
>> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything
>> similar,
>> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in
>> theory,
>> but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
>> determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right"
>> choice.
>> It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases,
>> the
>> names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be
>> an
>> experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
>>
>> I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed or
>> built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
>> especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably
>> well,
>> but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every
>> time
>> I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
>> available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use. So, I
>> have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every
>> day. I'm
>> the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more
>> input,
>> more input"!                                           6.02059991327962
>>
>> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of week,
>> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy
>> has
>> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in
>> high
>> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being
>> able to
>> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I am
>> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
>> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to
>> build
>> a GPSDO and my questions.
>>
>> I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
>> understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of
>> 10.
>> It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my DMM,
>> my
>> scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and
>> watts.
>> So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm.
>> If I
>> knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve the
>> values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I
>> have
>> attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I don't
>> get
>> a consistent value (probably because those statements were approximations
>> and
>> not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm
>> doubles
>> the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an
>> approximation.
>> It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the
>> zero
>> value appears to be different for different applications. In some it
>> appears
>> to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...
>>
>>   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic
>> scaling
>>      (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying
>> value
>>      across all applications?
>>
>>   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why
>> not
>>      just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW?
>> There
>>      does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic
>> scale
>>      for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
>>      Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a "real"
>>      value to actually do anything with it.
>>
>> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are
>> two
>> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
>> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate
>> that
>> one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen "GPS
>> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
>> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference
>> between an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.
>>
>>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS
>> Timing
>>      Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
>>
>>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the
>> use
>>      of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make
>> use
>>      of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>>      information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using a
>>      standard GPS antenna.
>>
>> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is potentially
>> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
>> receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
>> increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some carrier
>> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased
>> accuracy.
>> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and
>> GLASNOS to
>> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a GPS
>> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an
>> amateur so
>> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
>>
>> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something
>> or
>> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I
>> think
>> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the
>> following.
>>
>>   1. It is an interesting project.
>>
>>   2. It is an educational project.
>>
>>   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently or
>>      better.
>>
>>   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
>>      available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.
>>
>>   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but
>> rather
>>      by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several
>> hundred
>>      dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50
>> here
>>      and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 

--Jim Harman

From j99harman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 09:42:13 2016
From: j99harman at gmail.com (Jim Harman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 09:42:13 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
Message-ID: <CAJGSnY+QJ7=meqqz+zZt2oEGwW5O=pxKSMVVhHdUYdQdWxFHXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 7:04 PM, <timenut at metachaos.net> wrote:

> I am trying to learn more about electronics and start doing
> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything
> similar,
> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in
> theory,
> but practice still eludes me.
>

To get a better background in electronics, I would highly recommend "The
Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. The long awaited and fully
updated 3rd edition came out just last year and it is well worth the $80.00
price. As a person who has worked with electronics on and off since 1960, I
can say it teaches electronics the way I wish I had been taught. It has a
strong emphasis on practical applications and assumes only high school math.

Some here may pooh-poo it, but to get started building useful electronic
systems I would recommend the Arduino platform. Fully assembled processor
boards are about $25.00 from reputable suppliers and have plenty of I/O
pins to get you started. On some versions of the processor you can expand
the I/O by adding "shields" which mate to headers on the processor board.

All you need to do to is to plug the board into a USB port on your PC or
Mac and download the free IDE. Both the hardware and software are open
source so you can see exactly how they work under the covers if you want. A
wide variety of libraries is also available (all free) and there is a
lively user community. The programming language is a stripped-down version
of C++ with a bunch of simple extensions to support analog and digital
I/O.  Once your code is working you can either continue to power the system
through the USB port or run it stand-alone with a 9V battery or wall wart.

I have built a GPSDO based on the design posted here by Lars Walenius a
couple of years ago. It uses the Arduino Micro processor, which is nice
because it has a second serial port. This lets it get serial data from the
GPS and talk to the PC at the same time. I would be happy to post the
schematics and code if you are interested.

-- 

--Jim Harman

From richard at karlquist.com  Wed Jan 27 10:20:27 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 07:20:27 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <56A8E03B.3050101@karlquist.com>

On 1/22/2016 2:14 PM, Mathew Breton wrote:
> I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems, probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
> This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer, as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
> I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
> In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
> Regards,
> Mat Breton 		 	   		

I would like to mention that the "father" of the 5370,
David Chu, retired from Agilent a few years ago.  He
might be receptive to giving you some advice about
your project.  He is still very sharp technically.
If there is sufficient interest,  I might be able
to arrange for an introduction.  It would be helpful
if we had a show of hands on time nuts as to how many
people on time nuts are interested in this board.
David was one of the best engineers in the history
of the Santa Clara division and the fact that the
5370 lives on is a testimony to how far ahead of
its time the design was, some 40 years ago.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 10:34:33 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:34:33 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <69D771C3-A69A-48B6-BE3A-00C23FB71491@n1k.org>
References: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <69D771C3-A69A-48B6-BE3A-00C23FB71491@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiiQbDEmhTnXZLxYB3uCX5Jppx_B=+tmnOOAfGsfGk--w@mail.gmail.com>

Some great comments and like all of you I like my 5370s and 5345s. Real
buttons no mouse. Must be a throw back to the dark ages.
Always knew about the fan issue on the 5370 and have added fans to my main
operating unit.
But it had not occurred to me that the way the front panel is laid out
there may be little actual airflow across those chips. Thats quite a
thought.
So for those with working units that may be a completely seperate thread.
How hot do they get? Then some solution for that.
Essentially fix it before it dies.
Then there is the question I posed.
Skipping all of the details like adjustable slicing polarity and such. What
is the minimum to get a signal into the counter as a way to return it to
some usable service and certainly verify the bad frontend. Lets call this a
poor but useful answer.
>From that point it returns to this discussion.
But a full new front panel. As Perry says most likely not.
I do have 2 X5345s that I am pretty sure I need to dive into the front end
on. My excuse other projects...
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.
>
> Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s
> probably low). How many are people likely to buy?
>
> If so how much would you pay for a working 5370?
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take
> more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front
> panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is -
> why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the
> counter with way less effort…..
> > Well, I have two reasons not to.
> > First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU
> boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living
> daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
> > Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I
> have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
> > Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it
> seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on
> the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing
> still was too hot.
> > IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it
> will be a while before I can work on mine.
> > I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try
> better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors,
> install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in
> the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the
> afore mentioned.
> > I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I
> will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before.
> And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
> > Regards,
> > Perrier
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jn6wfo at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 10:38:37 2016
From: jn6wfo at gmail.com (Jeremy Nichols)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 07:38:37 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <CAJGSnYKrMEmayBk--zMGUPV04oP7xPn8q-iCz+TY_9LHPCY7Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A879A5.4090505@cox.net>
 <CAJGSnYKrMEmayBk--zMGUPV04oP7xPn8q-iCz+TY_9LHPCY7Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPv4gjQ_J5JQp7VsptzVNu4ntp32BQWUc3RjpQKAmYZRvEQ9hA@mail.gmail.com>

That hits the nail on the head. Mathematicians (the OP mentioned he was
one) learned long ago that it's easier to add and subtract than to multiply
and divide.

Jeremy


On Wednesday, January 27, 2016, Jim Harman <j99harman at gmail.com> wrote:

> Another benefit of using dB vs Watts or Volts is that systems often consist
> of a chain of elements with gains and losses. Working with gains and losses
> in dB lets you calculate the signal level at any point along the way and
> the system gain by adding and subtracting rather than multiplying and
> dividing.
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 3:02 AM, wb6bnq <wb6bnq at cox.net <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > The element that you are missing is the impedance.  When you look at the
> > common formula it refers to a ratio of power or voltage and the impedance
> > is left out with the understanding that the impedance is equal for each
> > power or voltage in the ratio.  The actual formula (for power) is DB =
> 10 X
> > log10 ( E1^2 / R ) / ( E2^2 / R ).  Hint   Power P = E^2 / R.
> >
> > In the RF world that impedance is 50 Ohms and ZERO DBm(illiwatts) is ONE
> > milliwatt into 50 Ohms which is 0.223606797749979 Vrms.
> >
> > In the audio world the reference impedance is 600 Ohms.  So ZERO DBu is
> > One milliwatt into 600 Ohms which is 0.7745966692414834 Vrms.  More
> > commonly referred to as 0.775 Vrms.
> >
> > As for your GPS questions, I will leave that up to others to answer.
> >
> > Bill....WB6BNQ
> >
> >
> > timenut at metachaos.net <javascript:;> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >>
> >> I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read
> about
> >> 5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably
> >> using a
> >> LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one
> >> affordably). I
> >> have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since
> they
> >> all
> >> appear to ship one or the other randomly).
> >>
> >> Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
> >> desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope
> >> that I
> >> am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am
> >> waiting
> >> on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it
> >> calibrated.
> >> All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish
> >> fixing
> >> my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording
> program
> >> to
> >> use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real
> >> time. I
> >> interrupted that project to work on the scope.
> >>
> >> In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
> >> things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this
> >> and
> >> generally to learn more.
> >>
> >> So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you
> >> know
> >> the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just
> >> about
> >> everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities,
> >> various AI
> >> programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and
> >> much
> >> more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have
> used
> >> many
> >> languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have
> also
> >> written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
> >> although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
> >> decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal
> logic
> >> than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism
> and
> >> abstraction come naturally to me.
> >>
> >> During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I
> have
> >> sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no
> >> education
> >> in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money -
> >> it IS
> >> a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start
> >> doing
> >> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything
> >> similar,
> >> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in
> >> theory,
> >> but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
> >> determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right"
> >> choice.
> >> It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases,
> >> the
> >> names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be
> >> an
> >> experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
> >>
> >> I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed
> or
> >> built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
> >> especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably
> >> well,
> >> but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every
> >> time
> >> I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
> >> available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use.
> So, I
> >> have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every
> >> day. I'm
> >> the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more
> >> input,
> >> more input"!                                           6.02059991327962
> >>
> >> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of
> week,
> >> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy
> >> has
> >> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in
> >> high
> >> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being
> >> able to
> >> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I
> am
> >> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
> >> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to
> >> build
> >> a GPSDO and my questions.
> >>
> >> I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
> >> understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of
> >> 10.
> >> It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my
> DMM,
> >> my
> >> scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and
> >> watts.
> >> So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm.
> >> If I
> >> knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve
> the
> >> values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I
> >> have
> >> attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I
> don't
> >> get
> >> a consistent value (probably because those statements were
> approximations
> >> and
> >> not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm
> >> doubles
> >> the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an
> >> approximation.
> >> It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the
> >> zero
> >> value appears to be different for different applications. In some it
> >> appears
> >> to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...
> >>
> >>   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic
> >> scaling
> >>      (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying
> >> value
> >>      across all applications?
> >>
> >>   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why
> >> not
> >>      just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW?
> >> There
> >>      does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic
> >> scale
> >>      for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
> >>      Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a
> "real"
> >>      value to actually do anything with it.
> >>
> >> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are
> >> two
> >> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
> >> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate
> >> that
> >> one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen
> "GPS
> >> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
> >> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference
> >> between an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference
> Antenna.
> >>
> >>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS
> >> Timing
> >>      Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
> >>
> >>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the
> >> use
> >>      of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make
> >> use
> >>      of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
> >>      information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically
> using a
> >>      standard GPS antenna.
> >>
> >> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is
> potentially
> >> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
> >> receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
> >> increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some
> carrier
> >> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased
> >> accuracy.
> >> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and
> >> GLASNOS to
> >> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a
> GPS
> >> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an
> >> amateur so
> >> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
> >>
> >> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that
> something
> >> or
> >> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I
> >> think
> >> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the
> >> following.
> >>
> >>   1. It is an interesting project.
> >>
> >>   2. It is an educational project.
> >>
> >>   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently
> or
> >>      better.
> >>
> >>   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
> >>      available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.
> >>
> >>   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but
> >> rather
> >>      by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several
> >> hundred
> >>      dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50
> >> here
> >>      and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> --Jim Harman
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

From j99harman at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 11:08:13 2016
From: j99harman at gmail.com (Jim Harman)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 11:08:13 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <B2669716-7E9B-4FBE-9E2D-707305693300@n1k.org>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
 <B2669716-7E9B-4FBE-9E2D-707305693300@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAJGSnYJLP2oSpPEd2Z6j+MFYSwuvw-+ac_XW=kGCMMOzFUL_Ew@mail.gmail.com>

I am a relative newbie here myself, but at the risk of starting a
firestorm, I would take issue with some of what Bob says below. See
comments interspersed.


On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:43 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Ok, so let me answer the questions you *should* have asked:
>
> (They are in no particular order. Number 3 probably should come first)
>
> 1) Is the gear I have enough to do this project?
>
> No, you will need some sort of frequency  / time standard. An atomic
> clock of some sort is pretty much a minimum. You probably also need
> a working GPSDO (or set of them) for comparison as well. You will also
> need a working / modern precision counter that will give you data down
> in the < 100 ps range.
>

This depends on your answer to #3 below. For my GPSDO, project, all I have
is a scope, DMM, and PC. I can't measure ADEV, but by setting the time
constant of my filter to 1000 sec and monitoring the TIC output I can be
pretty certain that my local reference is well within 100 nsec of the
"true" time.

>
> 2) How will this ultimately be built?
>
> At the very least, you will be building this with surface mount devices.
> If it’s a scratch build, you will be dealing with fine pitch parts. That
> gets
> you into a whole bunch of gear. It also gets you into a very real “is this
> fun or not” sort of question.
>

For my GPSDO I started with and Arduino board and a solderless breadboard.
Anything with an SMD is on a purchased breakout board that spreads its pins
to 0.1" centers. You do have to be careful to keep the wires short when
working with fast rise times. I migrated this to a solder-type breadboard
that mimics the layout of the solderless board and it is working fine.

>
> 3) What *is* the goal?
>
> "I’m going to make dinner” is the start of a process. It’s not enough of a
> goal to accomplish the task. Starting the task with a general objective is
> fine.
> It does need to be refined a bit before you go much further.
>

Agreed.

>
> Is this what most of us would call a GPSDO (self contained box) or is it
> something with a PC in the middle of it?
>

Mine runs either stand-alone or with a PC to monitor it.

>
> Is this an OCXO based “precision” device or is it something more simple?
>

I used a $25.00 surplus OCXO. Eventually I may invest in something better
but then I would have to get a timing GPS to go with it. Currently I am
using the $40.00 Adafruit module.

>
> Is a pure software solution good enough?
>

Mine is almost all software, but it has a TIC that consists of a 74HC4046
phase detector chip, a diode, a cap, and 2 resistors, feeding an A/D input
of the Arduino processor board. This gives a resolution of 1 ns.

>
> Each of those decisions (and that’s by no means a full list) will send you
> off
> in a very different direction.
>
For sure!

>
> 4) How long is this likely to take?
>
> Best guess based on the others who have done the same thing - several
> years.
>

I have been at it on and off for about two years but I have learned a lot
along the way.

>
> 5) How much is this likely to cost?
>
> If done the way others have done it, several thousand dollars up to
> quite a bit more than that.
>

My total investment (not including the scope, DMM, and laptop PC) is under
$200.

>
> 6) How much research is involved?
>
> Quite a bit. The information you need is scattered all over the place.
> Figure
> that you likely will read at least several hundred papers. There is a whole
> statistical language that is unique to these gizmos. This is *not* a
> follow a
> set recipe sort of project.
>

Again, depends on your answer to #3. I started with a working design and
code and modified it to suit my fancy. I am pleased with the result. It
keeps the brain cells firing.

>
> Lots of fun !!!
>

Absolutely!!


-- 

--Jim Harman

From martin.burnicki at burnicki.net  Wed Jan 27 11:49:52 2016
From: martin.burnicki at burnicki.net (Martin Burnicki)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:49:52 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 01/26/2016 11:46 PM, Martin Burnicki wrote:
>> Paul Boven wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
>>> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio
>>> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to
>>> their in-house standards.
>>
>> We were able to track this down today at Meinberg.
>>
>> The problem was that some satellites were sending invalid UTC correction
>> parameters. The UTC correction parameter set not only contains current
>> leap second information but also coefficients (A0, A1, WNt, tot) for a
>> polynomial used to compensate the fractional difference between GPS time
>> and UTC(USNO).
>>
>> Normally A0 (the constant offset) is very small, close to 0. WNt and tot
>> give the week number (truncated to 8 bits) and second-of-week for which
>> A0 is valid, i.e. the reference time for the time correction parameters.
>> WNt is currently about 89.
>>
>> Today the faulty satellites sent about 13.7 microseconds for A0, and WNt
>> as well as tot were both 0. So when the GPS receiver updated its UTC
>> correction parameters from a faulty satellite the UTC correction jumped
>> from close to 0 to about 13.7 microseconds, which let the UTC time step,
>> and when the GPS receiver received the UTC parameter set from a healthy
>> satellite the UTC time stepped back.
>>
>> We have recorded a few of the faulty subframe words. If someone is
>> interested I can provide more detailed information. However, I'm
>> currently out of the office and don't have the information here right
>> now.
> 
> You know I want more details. ;-)
> 
> I did see the report you guys sent to the USCG, good work there and good
> report.

Thanks.

After we had received the first reports about GPS receiver showing a 13
us time offset one of my colleagues who maintains the firmware of our
GPS receivers started to investigate. Looking at the data sets decoded
from the satellites he saw that temporarily the UTC correction parameter
jumped from one or 2 nanoseconds to more than 13 microseconds.

So he added some debug code which let the GPS receiver sent the
satellite number plus the raw subframe words 7 and 8 as hex numbers to a
monitor program which logged them to a file.

Then we looked at the raw data, decoded the bits manually and found that
some satellites were suspicious UTC correction data with a valid checksum.

Here are some subframe words 7 and 8 captured starting around 2016-01-26
12:00 UTC from subframe 4 page 18, and the decoded parameters
according to Figure 20-1, sheet 8 of IS-GPS-200H (printed page 83, PDF
page 96)
http://www.gps.gov/technical/icwg/IS-GPS-200H.pdf

sv    sfw7       sfw8        wnt|tot      a0 bits    a0[us]
09 0x3FFFF1B3 0x23800017 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
02 0x3FFFFFD5 0x3FD39644 --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
06 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
23 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
26 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
09 0x3FFFF1B3 0x23800017 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
02 0x3FFFFFD5 0x3FD39644 --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
06 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
23 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
09 0x00000000 0x0098D642 --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
02 0x3FFFFFD5 0x3FD39644 --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
23 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
06 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
09 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
02 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
06 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
23 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000

You see that SVs 09, 06, 23, and 26 sent a tot time 0 and a correction
parameter A0 of -13.696 microseconds, while the A0 parameter received
from healthy satellites was only 1 or 2 nanoseconds, as usual, and the
week number wnt matches the current week number, truncated to 8 bit.

Eventually there were even more satellites sending faulty data, but
these were the ones we could track at our location.

You can also see that in the last lines the A0 value sent by SVs 6, 9,
and 23 was "normal" again, so we happily just captured a few of the last
wrong data sets.

All data captured after this was OK again. Please find the full set of
debug output in the attached text file.

Unfortunately there was no time stamp in the debug output, but we know
the satellites repeat the same page 4 once every 12 minutes.

Martin

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From walter2 at sphere.bc.ca  Wed Jan 27 13:14:18 2016
From: walter2 at sphere.bc.ca (walter shawlee 2)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 10:14:18 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] puzzling level and harmonics partially solved
Message-ID: <56A908FA.6040008@sphere.bc.ca>

thanks to all that sent me info on this issue. it proved very helpful.
digging into the smd chinese add-on board tied to the oscilloquartz
ovenized oscillator, I discovered something unexpected.
the 2 outputs are in fact just tied together though a forest of series
inductors and shunt caps and then tied right to the to the oscillator output.

so, the reason the level is so low, and the harmonics so high is that both 
outputs are
in parallel through very lossy networks.  I am not sure what the intent was, but 
the result was to over-load the 50 ohm output of the oscillator, and then 
dissipate most of the signal. maybe this was some kind of 10Mhz bandpass filter, 
but now I need to dig right back to the oscillator and see if it is even needed.

I will see if this can be patched to at least work properly with a single 
output.  all the circuitry on the underside is actually just a fantastically 
complicated (to no good end) 12V power supply, and bias for the efc pin.  sigh...

I got a second unit at the same time off ebay, it does not work at all, if you 
plug into the power jack, it kills the power.  I was able to tease it into 
operation, and it has the exact same problems. clearly QA is not the strongest 
feature with this vendor (amoj1010).

all the best,
walter

-- 
Walter Shawlee 2, President
Sphere Research Corporation
3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)


From timenut at metachaos.net  Wed Jan 27 12:41:23 2016
From: timenut at metachaos.net (timenut at metachaos.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:41:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <1453884678.1165472.503762546.251CE763@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net> 
 <1453884678.1165472.503762546.251CE763@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <1238002018.20160127124123@metachaos.net>

Bill,

Thanks. Your reply was very informative. I understand the reason for using
decibels for the applications you mention. However, I did not consider the
output level of a non-RF signal to be in that category.

You are right, I have never seen a DMM reading in decimals. I know that
digital scopes can do so (and understand how they work), but again I have
never seen or used one. Given the zero point (finally figured that one out, I
was missing the assumed impedance factor which was varying) I can convert
levels - not quite in my head, since I can't do logs in my head - but close
and can get a pretty good guestimate that way.


Mike

P.S. I also used punch cards. I kept my source library first on punch cards
and then mag tape. I eventually bought my own IBM disk drive for the 360 at
work. I started on an RCA 70/46 using punch tape in a time sharing
environment. I had a trash-80 before S-100s. I even had a full size IBM tape
drive and four hard disk drives. Never could do anything with them, I just
couldn't get 3-phase 440 in an apartment complex and IBM used some very
unusual logic levels. I eventually gave the hard disk drives away and
abandoned the tape drive. I had the original CP/M source code from Gary
Kildall written in PL/M. Threw all of that stuff out about 10 years ago and
even more a bit more about a year and a half ago. But I still have the MASM
Assembler manuals from Microsoft. Those were last published around 1995 - and
I needed them just a few months ago.


> Hi, MIke. I used the university CDC6400/6600 supercomputer while in
> engineering school with punch cards or Teletypes and was familiar with S-100
> vintage equipment. Somewhere I may still have a MIcrosoft BASIC pre MS-DOS
> (HDOS or CP/M) looseleaf manual. I haven't retired yet, but have been an
> Application Engineer at Tektronix for nearly 30 years. So I can appreciate
> your mindset. I'm going to only answer two of your questions:

> 1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic
>    scaling   (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent
>    underlying value   across all applications?

> 2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why
>    not   just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses
>    50mW? There   does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a
>    logarithmic scale   for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a
>    small range.   Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic
>    value to a "real"   value to actually do anything with it.

> RF and audio (including telephone) types have used logarithmic (dB)
> units for many decades. There is often a need to discuss thermal noise
> levels and transmitter power levels in the same circuit, which can lead
> to very large voltage and power ratios. It's common to need to relate
> voltages over a 10^10 range and powers over a 10^20 range
> (1:0.00000000000000000001). Engineers and scientists like to use numeric
> values which are easier to work with. You wouldn't want to specify a
> hard drive size as 1,000,000,000,000 bytes but as 1 TB (ignoring the
> power of 2 vs power of 10 issue). So we use "engineering units" (powers
> of 1,000) for frequency (kHz, MHz, GHz, THz), voltage (pV, nV, uV, mV,
> V, kV, MV, GV).

> RF applications are more naturally dealt with in terms of power. The
> noise generated in a resistor due to thermal agitation (Johnson-Nyquist
> noise) is P = kTB, where P = power in watts, k = Boltzmanns constant
> (1.28 x 10^-23 J/K), T = absolute temperature in Kelvins, and B is the
> measurement bandwidth in Hertz. Many RF components are rated by power
> dissipation. Historically it's been much easier to measure RF signals
> levels by measuring thermal changes due to signal power.

> The very large dynamic range required for characterizing sound and
> telephone line levels and relating them to human perceived level change
> led to the definition of the Bel (power ratio of 10, named for Alexander
> Graham Bell). The decibel (1/10 Bel) is the logarithmic unit which is
> used in practice. The noise delivered by a resistor to a matched load at
> room temperature and normalized to a 1 Hz measurement bandwidth is about
> -174 dBm/Hz.

> The "m" in "dBm" stands for 1 mW (milliwatt). So 0 dBm = 1 mW. You
> should read "dBm" as "decibels relative to 1 milliwatt". Since most
> power levels in RF equipment tend to be within a couple of orders of
> magnitude below or above a milliwatt, dBm is the main unit used for RF
> equipment which can fit on your lab bench. In some cases it's convenient
> to use logarithmic voltage units, and the common units are dBuV
> (decibels relative to 1 microvolt), dBmV (decibels relative to 1
> millivolt), or dBV (decibels relative to 1 volt). But except for cable
> television and a few other applications (including noise levels at low
> audio frequencies), dBm rules the RF world.

> You are correct that linear non-logarithmic units work well when a small
> range of values are being used. Amateur Radio handheld transmitters have
> power ratings usually given in linear watts (100 mW, 1 W, 3 W, 5 W,
> etc.). A HF (high frequency 3-30 MHz) transmitter may have an output
> power meter marked in linear units of Watts. But the received signal
> strength meter is marked in logarithmic units, since with an automatic
> gain control the receiver dynamic range is many orders of magnitude too
> large to be shown with linear units.

> You happen to have test equipment which measures linear units. Many
> voltmeters designed to measure audio levels are calibrated in dBmV. Most
> RF signal level measurement instruments (power meters and spectrum
> analyzers) are usually used with dB or dBm scaling. Since the ratio of
> RF signals is often the main measurement of interest (such as harmonic
> or intermodulation level), spectrum analyzers are usually set up with a
> a variable full scale value (reference level) and a dB ratio vertical
> scale. The horizontal scale of a spectrum analyzer is usually linear
> frequency, but in many cases can be changed to logarithmic frequency.

> Modern oscilloscopes (those made in the past 20 years) digitize the
> voltage waveform, and they can easily show RMS voltage and even power
> levels. For many RF measurements the oscilloscope uses an FFT to create
> a spectrum display scaled in dBm. A DMM is not used to measure RF
> levels, but RF power meters directly display dBm power, as also used by
> spectrum analyzers.

> So the reason that your test equipment doesn't produce measurements in
> the same units commonly used by RF engineers is that you don't have
> modern RF test equipment, but rather old non-RF measurement instruments.
> That oscilloscope was introduced 27 years ago and many repair parts have
> not been available for many years. I own some much older Tektronix
> scopes and other equipment, but don't use oscilloscopes for general
> purpose RF measurements.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

> --
> Bill Byrom N5BB
>  
>  
>  
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, at 06:04 PM, timenut at metachaos.net wrote:
>> Hi,
>>  
>> I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read about
>> 5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably
>> using a
>> LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one
>> affordably). I
>> have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since they
>> all
>> appear to ship one or the other randomly).
>>  
>> Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
>> desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope
>> that I
>> am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am
>> waiting
>> on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it
>> calibrated.
>> All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish
>> fixing
>> my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording program
>> to
>> use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real
>> time. I
>> interrupted that project to work on the scope.
>>  
>> In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
>> things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this
>> and
>> generally to learn more.
>>  
>> So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you
>> know
>> the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just
>> about
>> everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities,
>> various AI
>> programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and
>> much
>> more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have used
>> many
>> languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have also
>> written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
>> although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
>> decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal
>> logic
>> than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism and
>> abstraction come naturally to me.
>>  
>> During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I
>> have
>> sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no
>> education
>> in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money -
>> it IS
>> a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start
>> doing
>> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything
>> similar,
>> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in
>> theory,
>> but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
>> determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right"
>> choice.
>> It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases,
>> the
>> names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be
>> an
>> experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
>>  
>> I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed or
>> built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
>> especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably
>> well,
>> but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every
>> time
>> I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
>> available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use. So,
>> I
>> have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every
>> day. I'm
>> the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more
>> input,
>> more input"!                                           6.02059991327962
>>  
>> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of
>> week,
>> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy
>> has
>> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in
>> high
>> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being
>> able to
>> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I
>> am
>> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
>> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to
>> build
>> a GPSDO and my questions.
>>  
>> I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
>> understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of
>> 10.
>> It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my DMM,
>> my
>> scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and
>> watts.
>> So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm.
>> If I
>> knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve
>> the
>> values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I
>> have
>> attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I don't
>> get
>> a consistent value (probably because those statements were approximations
>> and
>> not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm
>> doubles
>> the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an
>> approximation.
>> It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the
>> zero
>> value appears to be different for different applications. In some it
>> appears
>> to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...
>>  
>>   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic
>>   scaling
>>       (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying
>>       value
>>       across all applications?
>>  
>>   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why
>>   not
>>       just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW?
>>       There
>>       does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic
>>       scale
>>       for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
>>       Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a
>>       "real"
>>       value to actually do anything with it.
>>  
>> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are
>> two
>> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
>> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate
>> that
>> one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen
>> "GPS
>> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
>> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference
>> between
>> an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.
>>  
>>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS
>>   Timing
>>       Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
>>  
>>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the
>>   use
>>       of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make
>>       use
>>       of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>>       information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using
>>       a
>>       standard GPS antenna.
>>  
>> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is
>> potentially
>> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
>> receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
>> increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some
>> carrier
>> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased
>> accuracy.
>> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and
>> GLASNOS to
>> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a GPS
>> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an
>> amateur so
>> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
>>  
>> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something
>> or
>> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I
>> think
>> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the
>> following.
>>  
>>   1. It is an interesting project.
>>  
>>   2. It is an educational project.
>>  
>>   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently
>>   or
>>       better.
>>  
>>   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
>>       available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.
>>  
>>   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but
>>   rather
>>       by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several
>>       hundred
>>       dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50
>>       here
>>       and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.
>>  
>>  
>> Mike
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> _________________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>  
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



-- 
Best regards,
 Timenut                            mailto:timenut at metachaos.net


From timenut at metachaos.net  Wed Jan 27 12:54:23 2016
From: timenut at metachaos.net (timenut at metachaos.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:54:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <CAPv4gjQ_J5JQp7VsptzVNu4ntp32BQWUc3RjpQKAmYZRvEQ9hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net> <56A879A5.4090505@cox.net> 
 <CAJGSnYKrMEmayBk--zMGUPV04oP7xPn8q-iCz+TY_9LHPCY7Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPv4gjQ_J5JQp7VsptzVNu4ntp32BQWUc3RjpQKAmYZRvEQ9hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1104185071.20160127125423@metachaos.net>

Jeremy,

While you are right, "real" mathematicians don't have anything to do with
numbers! Its all functions, sets, maps, groups, rings and formal logic (very
tongue in cheek here, of course). All very abstract.

I also understand about the "chain of elements", but my assumption was that it
was a significant part of this arena. Certainly due to my inexperience in the
area.


Mike


> That hits the nail on the head. Mathematicians (the OP mentioned he was
> one) learned long ago that it's easier to add and subtract than to multiply
> and divide.

> Jeremy


> On Wednesday, January 27, 2016, Jim Harman <j99harman at gmail.com> wrote:

>> Another benefit of using dB vs Watts or Volts is that systems often consist
>> of a chain of elements with gains and losses. Working with gains and losses
>> in dB lets you calculate the signal level at any point along the way and
>> the system gain by adding and subtracting rather than multiplying and
>> dividing.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 3:02 AM, wb6bnq <wb6bnq at cox.net <javascript:;>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Mike,
>> >
>> > The element that you are missing is the impedance.  When you look at the
>> > common formula it refers to a ratio of power or voltage and the impedance
>> > is left out with the understanding that the impedance is equal for each
>> > power or voltage in the ratio.  The actual formula (for power) is DB =
>> 10 X
>> > log10 ( E1^2 / R ) / ( E2^2 / R ).  Hint   Power P = E^2 / R.
>> >
>> > In the RF world that impedance is 50 Ohms and ZERO DBm(illiwatts) is ONE
>> > milliwatt into 50 Ohms which is 0.223606797749979 Vrms.
>> >
>> > In the audio world the reference impedance is 600 Ohms.  So ZERO DBu is
>> > One milliwatt into 600 Ohms which is 0.7745966692414834 Vrms.  More
>> > commonly referred to as 0.775 Vrms.
>> >
>> > As for your GPS questions, I will leave that up to others to answer.
>> >
>> > Bill....WB6BNQ
>> >
>> >
>> > timenut at metachaos.net <javascript:;> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >>
>> >> I am a newbie to this list. I have downloaded the archives and read
>> about
>> >> 5,000 of the past messages. I plan on building my own GPSDO, probably
>> >> using a
>> >> LEA-6T (but LEA-7T or LEA-M8T would be good if I can find one
>> >> affordably). I
>> >> have a MTI 260 on order (although it could wind up being a 261 since
>> they
>> >> all
>> >> appear to ship one or the other randomly).
>> >>
>> >> Currently, my resources include a DMM (well, a couple) and soldering /
>> >> desoldering stations and quite a few tools. I also have an oscilloscope
>> >> that I
>> >> am currently repairing - a 400Mhz Tektronix 2465BCT analog scope. I am
>> >> waiting
>> >> on the final parts from Mouser. Once that is done I need to get it
>> >> calibrated.
>> >> All of that will probably take me another month. I also need to finish
>> >> fixing
>> >> my cassette deck - and then to finish writing a special recording
>> program
>> >> to
>> >> use raw device drivers to get around the fact that Windows is not real
>> >> time. I
>> >> interrupted that project to work on the scope.
>> >>
>> >> In the meantime, I am reading the time-nuts messages (and lots of other
>> >> things) to gather information and ideas about how I am going to do this
>> >> and
>> >> generally to learn more.
>> >>
>> >> So, I have some questions. Let me tell you a bit about me, so that you
>> >> know
>> >> the context and my limitations. I am a retired programmer. I wrote just
>> >> about
>> >> everything including device drivers, operating systems, utilities,
>> >> various AI
>> >> programs, telephone systems, compilers, encryption, web applications and
>> >> much
>> >> more. If I need to throw 50,000 LOC at a project, no problem. I have
>> used
>> >> many
>> >> languages including quite a few different assembly languages (I have
>> also
>> >> written an assembler). I consider myself a mathematician / programmer,
>> >> although I haven't really needed Calculus or Differential Equations for
>> >> decades, so I am pretty rusty in that area. I do more work in formal
>> logic
>> >> than higher mathematics. But, I THINK like a mathematician. Formalism
>> and
>> >> abstraction come naturally to me.
>> >>
>> >> During my career I also helped to debug hardware during S-100 days. I
>> have
>> >> sporadically messed with electronics off and on, informally, with no
>> >> education
>> >> in the area. Now that I am retired (and have more time, but less money -
>> >> it IS
>> >> a zero sum game!), I am trying to learn more about electronics and start
>> >> doing
>> >> hardware projects. I have never been into model building or anything
>> >> similar,
>> >> so my construction skills are lacking. I understand a lot of things in
>> >> theory,
>> >> but practice still eludes me. For example, knowing a part exists or
>> >> determining which of 10,000 apparently identical parts is the "right"
>> >> choice.
>> >> It can hours or even days to find the "right" connector. In many cases,
>> >> the
>> >> names or descriptions are completely meaningless. That all appears to be
>> >> an
>> >> experience related issue, so I will (hopefully) overcome that in time.
>> >>
>> >> I have no problem with soldering / desoldering, but I haven't designed
>> or
>> >> built my own PCB yet. I have designed / redesigned some minor circuits,
>> >> especially on the power supply side. I can follow schematics reasonably
>> >> well,
>> >> but I am not comfortable with Eagle or other PCB layout programs. Every
>> >> time
>> >> I have tried one of those programs, half of the parts I needed were not
>> >> available. I have started using TinyCAD which is much easier to use.
>> So, I
>> >> have a lot to learn. But, that is basically what I do, all day, every
>> >> day. I'm
>> >> the type of person that gets bored easily and quickly. As #5 said "more
>> >> input,
>> >> more input"!                                           6.02059991327962
>> >>
>> >> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of
>> week,
>> >> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy
>> >> has
>> >> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in
>> >> high
>> >> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being
>> >> able to
>> >> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I
>> am
>> >> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
>> >> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to
>> >> build
>> >> a GPSDO and my questions.
>> >>
>> >> I understand the logarithmic scaling used for voltage and power. I even
>> >> understand why voltage uses a multiplier of 20 and power a multiplier of
>> >> 10.
>> >> It makes sense when working with a wide range of values. However, my
>> DMM,
>> >> my
>> >> scope and generally schematics work directly with current, voltage and
>> >> watts.
>> >> So, I am constantly seeing statements like an output is 7 dBm or 13 dBm.
>> >> If I
>> >> knew the actual value for 0 dBm then the basic equations would resolve
>> the
>> >> values. However, I have not found a consistent answer for that. When I
>> >> have
>> >> attempted to work values backwards from various statements, again I
>> don't
>> >> get
>> >> a consistent value (probably because those statements were
>> approximations
>> >> and
>> >> not exact values). I always see statements that an increase of 6dBm
>> >> doubles
>> >> the value. It is used so often that most people forget it is an
>> >> approximation.
>> >> It is 6.02059991... and sometimes, it may make a difference. Worse, the
>> >> zero
>> >> value appears to be different for different applications. In some it
>> >> appears
>> >> to be completely arbitrary. So this leads to two questions...
>> >>
>> >>   1. What is the zero value for voltage and watts using logarithmic
>> >> scaling
>> >>      (at least as used here)? Is there actually a consistent underlying
>> >> value
>> >>      across all applications?
>> >>
>> >>   2. Why use it for specifying voltage or power in a limited range? Why
>> >> not
>> >>      just say that the output is 1.0v rms or 0.7v, or that it uses 50mW?
>> >> There
>> >>      does not appear to be any actual advantage to using a logarithmic
>> >> scale
>> >>      for a small range of values - and 1mV to 1kV IS a small range.
>> >>      Especially when you have to convert the logarithmic value to a
>> "real"
>> >>      value to actually do anything with it.
>> >>
>> >> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are
>> >> two
>> >> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. I have not seen anything to
>> >> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate
>> >> that
>> >> one or the other might be better for GPS timing. However, I have seen
>> "GPS
>> >> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
>> >> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference
>> >> between an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference
>> Antenna.
>> >>
>> >>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS
>> >> Timing
>> >>      Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
>> >>
>> >>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the
>> >> use
>> >>      of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make
>> >> use
>> >>      of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>> >>      information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically
>> using a
>> >>      standard GPS antenna.
>> >>
>> >> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is
>> potentially
>> >> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
>> >> receivers available that use carrier phase? Or use both L1 and L2 for
>> >> increased accuracy? I see that the ubolt receivers can report some
>> carrier
>> >> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased
>> >> accuracy.
>> >> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and
>> >> GLASNOS to
>> >> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that? I suspect that building a
>> GPS
>> >> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an
>> >> amateur so
>> >> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
>> >>
>> >> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that
>> something
>> >> or
>> >> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I
>> >> think
>> >> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the
>> >> following.
>> >>
>> >>   1. It is an interesting project.
>> >>
>> >>   2. It is an educational project.
>> >>
>> >>   3. You may have some ideas about how things could be done differently
>> or
>> >>      better.
>> >>
>> >>   4. You may want some combination of features that is not commercially
>> >>      available or perhaps is not affordable even with a generous budget.
>> >>
>> >>   5. Many people on limited budgets are not limited by total cost, but
>> >> rather
>> >>      by incremental cost. So, someone may not be able to afford several
>> >> hundred
>> >>      dollars for a pre-built system. But, they may be able to afford $50
>> >> here
>> >>      and there. So, building it themselves is the only practical option.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>
>> >> To unsubscribe, go to
>> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> >> and follow the instructions there.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> --Jim Harman
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>





-- 
Best regards,
 Timenut                            mailto:timenut at metachaos.net


From moehanton at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 27 07:17:32 2016
From: moehanton at yahoo.com (Anton Moehammad)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:17:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO unclear situation
References: <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Hi All, 
My GPSDO based from VE2ZAZ design but I have a few question I do not clearly understand about GPSDO, like :
 1.How important the quality of 1 PPS signal based from jitter etc what the difference I will get between timing purpose GPS module like Ublox 6T or trimble resolution T with a position GPS module like ublox 6M or other in term of stability, accuracy and phase noise.
 2. I understand short time stability from OCXO is better than GPSDO ? can someone give me a clue what the time constant need for OCXO control (in my application 30 second) is that enough ?
3. I have few Rubidium oscillator and I read somewhere (I believe in KE5FX web) that GPSDO with rubidium osc is hard to beat, in what way ? short time, long time, phase noise.
My goal is "simple" I have access to national time reference lab ( an active Maser H ) I want to compare my reference to them off course there is no way I have same stability but anything not so "embrace" is fine to me 
Thank you for all opinion/advice.
Anton Hendra   

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 14:26:28 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 14:26:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] puzzling level and harmonics partially solved
In-Reply-To: <56A908FA.6040008@sphere.bc.ca>
References: <56A908FA.6040008@sphere.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjGS4v17d0Ktc6LCV13U51+SwCOfqfU4=1iu5VSz5Ht+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Walter if you can get it back to the basic clean oscillator thats great.
Since you have access to a lot of older equipment you might have old video
amplifiers are a fine way to get some more outputs. Most of the 6 MHz amps
actually go higher and the later amps were typically good to 30 MHz. I just
suspect you may have access to those types of amps.
Depending on the quality of the amp there may be sync clamping and it was
always possible to disable that. There were also high end eq that could be
adjusted to raise the frequency.
Certainly not the lowest noise but may be pretty handy for at least now.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:14 PM, walter shawlee 2 <walter2 at sphere.bc.ca>
wrote:

> thanks to all that sent me info on this issue. it proved very helpful.
> digging into the smd chinese add-on board tied to the oscilloquartz
> ovenized oscillator, I discovered something unexpected.
> the 2 outputs are in fact just tied together though a forest of series
> inductors and shunt caps and then tied right to the to the oscillator
> output.
>
> so, the reason the level is so low, and the harmonics so high is that both
> outputs are
> in parallel through very lossy networks.  I am not sure what the intent
> was, but the result was to over-load the 50 ohm output of the oscillator,
> and then dissipate most of the signal. maybe this was some kind of 10Mhz
> bandpass filter, but now I need to dig right back to the oscillator and see
> if it is even needed.
>
> I will see if this can be patched to at least work properly with a single
> output.  all the circuitry on the underside is actually just a
> fantastically complicated (to no good end) 12V power supply, and bias for
> the efc pin.  sigh...
>
> I got a second unit at the same time off ebay, it does not work at all, if
> you plug into the power jack, it kills the power.  I was able to tease it
> into operation, and it has the exact same problems. clearly QA is not the
> strongest feature with this vendor (amoj1010).
>
> all the best,
> walter
>
> --
> Walter Shawlee 2, President
> Sphere Research Corporation
> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
> walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From djl at montana.com  Wed Jan 27 14:38:45 2016
From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:38:45 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <935271263.805069.1453867681170.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <639ff9b064c863d3b28d86ea368be0dc.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>

Someone has already probably said, watch out for switching regulators.  BTW,
almost all the Hp instruments I have from the 80's era run hot as heck. I have
put on fans and piggybacked more fins (and more fins, and more fins...).  A
Military version of the 5328A counter I have has what sounds like a leaf
blower in it, with a proportional controller added.
If you do some work with switchers, I'm sure the list would be very interested!
Don

Don
Perry Sandeen via time-nuts
> Hi,
> Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take more
> than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front panel
> board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is - why do
> that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the counter
> with way less effort…..
> Well, I have two reasons not to.
> First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU boards
> and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living daylights out
> of my units before blowing off my investment.
> Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I have
> to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
> Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it seems
> the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on the
> cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing still
> was too hot.
> IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it will
> be a while before I can work on mine.
> I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try better 3
> terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors, install
> switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in the top lid
> and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the afore mentioned.
> I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I will
> find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before. And
> when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
> Regards,
> Perrier
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
-------------------------------
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



From paulswedb at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 15:28:44 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:28:44 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO unclear situation
In-Reply-To: <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAh3ngcUk0OA6KuRyg7LhmcZpu3uBWB0CGOHZWduCTnvcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anton a brief response others will add.
Welcome to time nuts.
Yes the 1pps can be very important to the ultimate stability of the system.
But the fact is many other things come into play.
Poor oscillators sloppy GPS controllers and such can make the 1pps pulse
the least of your concerns.
That said I also have the VE2ZAZ controller it works well and has been
around for most likely 10 years. It was never intended to go to the levels
that some time-nuts can go. Call it a great .1 Hertz solution. Cheap simple
reliable. If thats what you need for Amateur radio work your all set.
But more advanced GPS controllers do all sorts of filtering and averaging
and can deliver stability 3 and more decades in accuracy. Thats when those
better GPS receivers are a need. I have to be careful here because even the
ublox NEO6s can do a pretty good job.

Now comparing all of this to your H maser, well its not really a comparison
and I am unsure what the benefit would be in doing that. I would spend far
more time figuring out how to get a signal from the H maser to my home and
simply forget all the other approaches. Let someone else pay for the power
cooling and maintenance.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:17 AM, Anton Moehammad via time-nuts <
time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> My GPSDO based from VE2ZAZ design but I have a few question I do not
> clearly understand about GPSDO, like :
>  1.How important the quality of 1 PPS signal based from jitter etc what
> the difference I will get between timing purpose GPS module like Ublox 6T
> or trimble resolution T with a position GPS module like ublox 6M or other
> in term of stability, accuracy and phase noise.
>  2. I understand short time stability from OCXO is better than GPSDO ? can
> someone give me a clue what the time constant need for OCXO control (in my
> application 30 second) is that enough ?
> 3. I have few Rubidium oscillator and I read somewhere (I believe in KE5FX
> web) that GPSDO with rubidium osc is hard to beat, in what way ? short
> time, long time, phase noise.
> My goal is "simple" I have access to national time reference lab ( an
> active Maser H ) I want to compare my reference to them off course there is
> no way I have same stability but anything not so "embrace" is fine to me
> Thank you for all opinion/advice.
> Anton Hendra
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jan 27 15:38:15 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 20:38:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAiiQbDEmhTnXZLxYB3uCX5Jppx_B=+tmnOOAfGsfGk--w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD2JfAiiQbDEmhTnXZLxYB3uCX5Jppx_B=+tmnOOAfGsfGk--w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2101021096.168619.1453927096062.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Something like the attached schematic should suffice however an extra gain stage would probably be necessary to achieve the 100mV sensitivity.NB Vcc = 15V, Vee = -15V.
Bruce
 

    On Thursday, 28 January 2016 5:02 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
 

 Some great comments and like all of you I like my 5370s and 5345s. Real
buttons no mouse. Must be a throw back to the dark ages.
Always knew about the fan issue on the 5370 and have added fans to my main
operating unit.
But it had not occurred to me that the way the front panel is laid out
there may be little actual airflow across those chips. Thats quite a
thought.
So for those with working units that may be a completely seperate thread.
How hot do they get? Then some solution for that.
Essentially fix it before it dies.
Then there is the question I posed.
Skipping all of the details like adjustable slicing polarity and such. What
is the minimum to get a signal into the counter as a way to return it to
some usable service and certainly verify the bad frontend. Lets call this a
poor but useful answer.
>From that point it returns to this discussion.
But a full new front panel. As Perry says most likely not.
I do have 2 X5345s that I am pretty sure I need to dive into the front end
on. My excuse other projects...
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.
>
> Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s
> probably low). How many are people likely to buy?
>
> If so how much would you pay for a working 5370?
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take
> more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front
> panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is -
> why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the
> counter with way less effort…..
> > Well, I have two reasons not to.
> > First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU
> boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living
> daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
> > Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I
> have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
> > Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it
> seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on
> the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing
> still was too hot.
> > IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it
> will be a while before I can work on mine.
> > I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try
> better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors,
> install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in
> the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the
> afore mentioned.
> > I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I
> will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before.
> And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
> > Regards,
> > Perrier
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  
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From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Jan 27 16:26:27 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 22:26:27 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO unclear situation
In-Reply-To: <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20160127222627.473ad2cd3f7bbc09780122f4@kinali.ch>

On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:17:32 +0000 (UTC)
Anton Moehammad via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Hi All, 
> My GPSDO based from VE2ZAZ design but I have a few question I do
> not clearly understand about GPSDO, like :

>  1.How important the quality of 1 PPS signal based from jitter etc what the
> difference I will get between timing purpose GPS module like Ublox 6T or
> trimble resolution T with a position GPS module like ublox 6M or other in
> term of stability, accuracy and phase noise.

I think the best improvement you can make is by not using a VE2ZAZ style
GPSDO :-) The design uses an FLL, which results in a slight frequency
error. If you change it to a PLL, you will only get a slight phase error.

Next, PPS resolution will be limted by the uC internal counter.
Ie your resolution is in the 10-50ns range. You will need to get this
down to <1ns and apply saw-tooth correction if you want to see any
difference between a standard GPS receiver or a timing GPS receiver.

As there is no LEA-6M I assume you mean the LEA-M8T. The Trimble Resolution,
the LEA-6T and the LEA-M8T are all timing receivers. The differences between
those are small. Smaller than all the other error contributions due to your
device design and your antenna position. Hence I wouldn't change the
receiver, once you have found one that fits your need.

>  2. I understand short time stability from OCXO is better than GPSDO ? 
> can someone give me a clue what the time constant need for OCXO control
> (in my application 30 second) is that enough ?

This highly depends on your OCXO, your GPSDO design and the performance
the GPS receiver delivers. There have been many papers written on this
topic and you need a fair bit of understanding on control theory to apply
them correctly. Usual time constants for the control loop are between
one second and a couple of minutes. 

> 3. I have few Rubidium oscillator and I read somewhere (I believe in KE5FX
> web) that GPSDO with rubidium osc is hard to beat, in what way ? short time,
> long time, phase noise.

The reason is because you can integrate over days using an Rb local
oscillator instead of just seconds or minutes. This filters out all
periodic perturbations induced by the GPS system.
The phase noise might or might not be better though. This highly depends
on how much care was given to the Rb's quartz oscillator output.
E.g. the ubiquitus FE-5680A has a very noisy output, worse than
a simple crystal oscillator.


> My goal is "simple" I have access to national time reference lab
> ( an active Maser H ) I want to compare my reference to them off course
> there is no way I have same stability but anything not so "embrace" is fine
> to me 

I am not sure I understand what you mean here. Do you want to compare
your GPSDO to their H-maser? Or do you want to compare some local
reference you have using the GPSDO as transfer standard?


			Attila Kinali


-- 
Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
		-- unknown

From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Jan 27 16:04:29 2016
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 22:04:29 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
Message-ID: <20160127220429.9d8d26b4316cc86a40b3d074@kinali.ch>

Moin,

As no-one seems to want to answer the GPS related questions....


On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:04:10 -0500
timenut at metachaos.net wrote:

> 
> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of week,
> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy has
> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in high
> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being able to
> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I am
> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to build
> a GPSDO and my questions.

I have wirtten a couple of mails with references to popular GPSDO's
a couple of times in the past. You might want to have a look at them
and the discussions they were in:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-March/064873.html
https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2013-June/077368.html


> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are two
> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. 

There are actually many more, but the cross dipole, the spiral antenna
and the two you mentioned are by far the most popular ones.


> I have not seen anything to
> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate that
> one or the other might be better for GPS timing.

What makes good antennas and what not is actually not that easy to define.
There was a discussion on this last spring. look for
"Important parameters for a GPS/GNSS antenna" in the archives.

> However, I have seen "GPS
> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference between 
> an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.

>    1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS Timing
>       Reference antenna? What features are of interest?

The timing reference antennas are usually build by manufacturers with the
intended use for high precision instruments. Either timing or geodetic survey.
Their parameters are more strictly controlled, they have (usually) a more
stable phase center and some of them are also dual band (L1/L2).

Unless you need sub-ns stability and accuracy or have a dual band receiver,
go for a standard antenna.

 
>    2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the use
>       of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make use
>       of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>       information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using a
>       standard GPS antenna.

I am not sure what the LEA modules need to active WAAS/EGNOS/etc, it's
probably listed under one of the commands in the protocol reference.

You don't need any special antenna for those, as these augmentation
services use the same frequency as L1 GPS.

> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is potentially
> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
> receivers available that use carrier phase? 

Yes, but they are darn expensive.

> Or use both L1 and L2 for increased accuracy? 

Yes, but again, expensive.

> I see that the ubolt receivers can report some carrier
> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased accuracy.

If anything, it would lead to higher precision ;-)

The reason why carrier phase tracking does not lead to large improvements
is because most receivers are single frequency receivers which cannot
directly calculate the ionospheric corrections. Thus they have to rely
on predictions send out by the GPS satellites (and by WAAS/EGNOS).
But even with those predictions, the ionospheric terms will dominate
the error. Thus there is very little gain from using carrier phase
tracking over code phase only tracking for an L1 only receiver.

> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and GLASNOS to
> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that?

I did not have a look at the M8T yet, so i cannot answer this.
I am pretty sure that there are dual system timing receivers out there.


>  I suspect that building a GPS
> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an amateur so
> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.

Not really. I know of three people on this mailinglist who are
doing exactly this. It is just a lot of work and takes a lot of time.
The basics of a GPS receiver can be taught in an afternoon and would
enable you to build your own. But, doing it right and and time-nut
grade, with support for more than just L1 C/A requires quite a bit
more understanding and even more time.


> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something or
> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I think
> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the following.

We don't ask here "why". If it's fun for you to do, go ahead. We wont
question your reasons :-)


				Attila Kinali

-- 
Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
		-- unknown

From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Wed Jan 27 14:39:12 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 14:39:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <1238002018.20160127124123@metachaos.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
 <1453884678.1165472.503762546.251CE763@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1238002018.20160127124123@metachaos.net>
Message-ID: <56A91CE0.90008@ArtekManuals.com>

You will find the following discussion of dB useful

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-volt.htm

dB references are not just for RF it  is/was used extensively in audio 
work as well where it was often related to 600ohm load vs the 50ohm RF load

As for DMM I have a Tektronix DM501A and a DM502A both have dB scales. I 
have a 20+ year old Radio-Schlock DMM which also has a Db scale. Then 
there are all the analog HP 4xx series all of which have dB scales 
regardless of frequency coverage AC volt meters, RF power meters etc. 
Also the Boonton 92 series all incorporate dBm scales ...and the list 
goes on

Have fun and welcome back to the world of practical electronics 
experimenting.

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals.com

On 1/27/2016 12:41 PM, timenut at metachaos.net wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Thanks. Your reply was very informative. I understand the reason for using
> decibels for the applications you mention. However, I did not consider the
> output level of a non-RF signal to be in that category.
>
> You are right, I have never seen a DMM reading in decimals. I know that
> digital scopes can do so (and understand how they work), but again I have
> never seen or used one. Given the zero point (finally figured that one out, I
> was missing the assumed impedance factor which was varying) I can convert
> levels - not quite in my head, since I can't do logs in my head - but close
> and can get a pretty good guestimate that way.
>
>

-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 17:16:02 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:16:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO unclear situation
In-Reply-To: <20160127222627.473ad2cd3f7bbc09780122f4@kinali.ch>
References: <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <468996604.893737.1453897052140.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20160127222627.473ad2cd3f7bbc09780122f4@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiWqk=N8v=DN6Drzn3oug58xQF+bMueOoRi44CA=JoBiw@mail.gmail.com>

Attila I am pretty sure Anton is saying compare it to the H Maser and it
simply doesn't in any way. I think we are speaking 1X10-11 compared to 1
X10-14th or so.
Thats why I say forget all of the GPS stuff and go for an output from the
maser to home. Now that would be a really fun project. Thinking RF. But
need to stop going down that rabbit hole as I am lacking a good H maser.
Sorry for the detour back to Antons thread.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Jan 2016 12:17:32 +0000 (UTC)
> Anton Moehammad via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
> > My GPSDO based from VE2ZAZ design but I have a few question I do
> > not clearly understand about GPSDO, like :
>
> >  1.How important the quality of 1 PPS signal based from jitter etc what
> the
> > difference I will get between timing purpose GPS module like Ublox 6T or
> > trimble resolution T with a position GPS module like ublox 6M or other in
> > term of stability, accuracy and phase noise.
>
> I think the best improvement you can make is by not using a VE2ZAZ style
> GPSDO :-) The design uses an FLL, which results in a slight frequency
> error. If you change it to a PLL, you will only get a slight phase error.
>
> Next, PPS resolution will be limted by the uC internal counter.
> Ie your resolution is in the 10-50ns range. You will need to get this
> down to <1ns and apply saw-tooth correction if you want to see any
> difference between a standard GPS receiver or a timing GPS receiver.
>
> As there is no LEA-6M I assume you mean the LEA-M8T. The Trimble
> Resolution,
> the LEA-6T and the LEA-M8T are all timing receivers. The differences
> between
> those are small. Smaller than all the other error contributions due to your
> device design and your antenna position. Hence I wouldn't change the
> receiver, once you have found one that fits your need.
>
> >  2. I understand short time stability from OCXO is better than GPSDO ?
> > can someone give me a clue what the time constant need for OCXO control
> > (in my application 30 second) is that enough ?
>
> This highly depends on your OCXO, your GPSDO design and the performance
> the GPS receiver delivers. There have been many papers written on this
> topic and you need a fair bit of understanding on control theory to apply
> them correctly. Usual time constants for the control loop are between
> one second and a couple of minutes.
>
> > 3. I have few Rubidium oscillator and I read somewhere (I believe in
> KE5FX
> > web) that GPSDO with rubidium osc is hard to beat, in what way ? short
> time,
> > long time, phase noise.
>
> The reason is because you can integrate over days using an Rb local
> oscillator instead of just seconds or minutes. This filters out all
> periodic perturbations induced by the GPS system.
> The phase noise might or might not be better though. This highly depends
> on how much care was given to the Rb's quartz oscillator output.
> E.g. the ubiquitus FE-5680A has a very noisy output, worse than
> a simple crystal oscillator.
>
>
> > My goal is "simple" I have access to national time reference lab
> > ( an active Maser H ) I want to compare my reference to them off course
> > there is no way I have same stability but anything not so "embrace" is
> fine
> > to me
>
> I am not sure I understand what you mean here. Do you want to compare
> your GPSDO to their H-maser? Or do you want to compare some local
> reference you have using the GPSDO as transfer standard?
>
>
>                         Attila Kinali
>
>
> --
> Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
>                 -- unknown
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jan 27 17:22:46 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:22:46 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <2101021096.168619.1453927096062.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2JfAiiQbDEmhTnXZLxYB3uCX5Jppx_B=+tmnOOAfGsfGk--w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2101021096.168619.1453927096062.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3987191.0yxxWdDovu@linux>

Achieving a bandwidth of 100MHz is easy. To get useful output at 500MHz 
inductive peaking of the collector loads of the input stage will be required.
Correctly proportioned Bridged T-coils should work well.
Cascoding the input stage may also help.

Bruce

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 08:38:15 PM Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> Something like the attached schematic should suffice however an extra gain
> stage would probably be necessary to achieve the 100mV sensitivity.NB Vcc =
> 15V, Vee = -15V. Bruce
> 
> 
>     On Thursday, 28 January 2016 5:02 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>  Some great comments and like all of you I like my 5370s and 5345s. Real
> buttons no mouse. Must be a throw back to the dark ages.
> Always knew about the fan issue on the 5370 and have added fans to my main
> operating unit.
> But it had not occurred to me that the way the front panel is laid out
> there may be little actual airflow across those chips. Thats quite a
> thought.
> So for those with working units that may be a completely seperate thread.
> How hot do they get? Then some solution for that.
> Essentially fix it before it dies.
> Then there is the question I posed.
> Skipping all of the details like adjustable slicing polarity and such.. What
> is the minimum to get a signal into the counter as a way to return it to
> some usable service and certainly verify the bad frontend. Lets call this a
> poor but useful answer.
> From that point it returns to this discussion.
> But a full new front panel. As Perry says most likely not.
> I do have 2 X5345s that I am pretty sure I need to dive into the front end
> on. My excuse other projects...
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> > Hi
> > 
> > Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.
> > 
> > Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s
> > probably low). How many are people likely to buy?
> > 
> > If so how much would you pay for a working 5370?
> > 
> > Bob
> > 
> > > On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
> > 
> > time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take
> > 
> > more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire
> > front
> > panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is -
> > why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as
> > the
> > counter with way less effort…..
> > 
> > > Well, I have two reasons not to.
> > > First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU
> > 
> > boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living
> > daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
> > 
> > > Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I
> > 
> > have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
> > 
> > > Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it
> > 
> > seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s)
> > on
> > the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the
> > thing
> > still was too hot.
> > 
> > > IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
> > 
> > interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it
> > will be a while before I can work on mine.
> > 
> > > I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try
> > 
> > better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors,
> > install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in
> > the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the
> > afore mentioned.
> > 
> > > I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
> > 
> > working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I
> > will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment
> > before.
> > And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
> > 
> > > Regards,
> > > Perrier
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > 
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the
> instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 27 18:01:13 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:01:13 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <2101021096.168619.1453927096062.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAD2JfAiiQbDEmhTnXZLxYB3uCX5Jppx_B=+tmnOOAfGsfGk--w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2101021096.168619.1453927096062.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D288EA8F-29B9-4262-9771-334E6BB26965@n1k.org>

Hi

Ok, what else is on the same board as the front end? 

Is this a “chop a big hole in the board” project or is it a more elegant, replace the whole board approach. If you are just going to chop 
a hole in the board, what else buried in there. 

There is way more to this than just an input circuit. 

Bob


> On Jan 27, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> Something like the attached schematic should suffice however an extra gain stage would probably be necessary to achieve the 100mV sensitivity.NB Vcc = 15V, Vee = -15V.
> Bruce
> 
> 
>    On Thursday, 28 January 2016 5:02 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Some great comments and like all of you I like my 5370s and 5345s. Real
> buttons no mouse. Must be a throw back to the dark ages.
> Always knew about the fan issue on the 5370 and have added fans to my main
> operating unit.
> But it had not occurred to me that the way the front panel is laid out
> there may be little actual airflow across those chips. Thats quite a
> thought.
> So for those with working units that may be a completely seperate thread.
> How hot do they get? Then some solution for that.
> Essentially fix it before it dies.
> Then there is the question I posed.
> Skipping all of the details like adjustable slicing polarity and such. What
> is the minimum to get a signal into the counter as a way to return it to
> some usable service and certainly verify the bad frontend. Lets call this a
> poor but useful answer.
> From that point it returns to this discussion.
> But a full new front panel. As Perry says most likely not.
> I do have 2 X5345s that I am pretty sure I need to dive into the front end
> on. My excuse other projects...
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.
>> 
>> Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s
>> probably low). How many are people likely to buy?
>> 
>> If so how much would you pay for a working 5370?
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
>> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take
>> more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front
>> panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is -
>> why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the
>> counter with way less effort…..
>>> Well, I have two reasons not to.
>>> First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU
>> boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living
>> daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
>>> Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I
>> have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
>>> Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it
>> seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on
>> the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing
>> still was too hot.
>>> IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
>> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it
>> will be a while before I can work on mine.
>>> I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try
>> better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors,
>> install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in
>> the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the
>> afore mentioned.
>>> I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
>> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I
>> will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before.
>> And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
>>> Regards,
>>> Perrier
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> <5370FrontEnd.PNG>_______________________________________________
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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 27 18:09:43 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:09:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <CAJGSnYJLP2oSpPEd2Z6j+MFYSwuvw-+ac_XW=kGCMMOzFUL_Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
 <B2669716-7E9B-4FBE-9E2D-707305693300@n1k.org>
 <CAJGSnYJLP2oSpPEd2Z6j+MFYSwuvw-+ac_XW=kGCMMOzFUL_Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <949F61BF-3CE1-44AF-8383-F8A1FB74A347@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 27, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Jim Harman <j99harman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I am a relative newbie here myself, but at the risk of starting a
> firestorm, I would take issue with some of what Bob says below. See
> comments interspersed.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:43 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Ok, so let me answer the questions you *should* have asked:
>> 
>> (They are in no particular order. Number 3 probably should come first)
>> 
>> 1) Is the gear I have enough to do this project?
>> 
>> No, you will need some sort of frequency  / time standard. An atomic
>> clock of some sort is pretty much a minimum. You probably also need
>> a working GPSDO (or set of them) for comparison as well. You will also
>> need a working / modern precision counter that will give you data down
>> in the < 100 ps range.
>> 
> 
> This depends on your answer to #3 below. For my GPSDO, project, all I have
> is a scope, DMM, and PC. I can't measure ADEV, but by setting the time
> constant of my filter to 1000 sec and monitoring the TIC output I can be
> pretty certain that my local reference is well within 100 nsec of the
> "true" time.

Except you have no idea if you have messed up the performance at < 1000 seconds. Unfortunately 
there are a *lot* of ways to do that .


> 
>> 
>> 2) How will this ultimately be built?
>> 
>> At the very least, you will be building this with surface mount devices.
>> If it’s a scratch build, you will be dealing with fine pitch parts. That
>> gets
>> you into a whole bunch of gear. It also gets you into a very real “is this
>> fun or not” sort of question.
>> 
> 
> For my GPSDO I started with and Arduino board and a solderless breadboard.
> Anything with an SMD is on a purchased breakout board that spreads its pins
> to 0.1" centers. You do have to be careful to keep the wires short when
> working with fast rise times. I migrated this to a solder-type breadboard
> that mimics the layout of the solderless board and it is working fine.

Which is yet another branch to the decision tree. There are literally thousands
of possible branches. We could spend a lot of time enumerating all of them. 


> 
>> 
>> 3) What *is* the goal?
>> 
>> "I’m going to make dinner” is the start of a process. It’s not enough of a
>> goal to accomplish the task. Starting the task with a general objective is
>> fine.
>> It does need to be refined a bit before you go much further.
>> 
> 
> Agreed.
> 
>> 
>> Is this what most of us would call a GPSDO (self contained box) or is it
>> something with a PC in the middle of it?
>> 
> 
> Mine runs either stand-alone or with a PC to monitor it.
> 
>> 
>> Is this an OCXO based “precision” device or is it something more simple?
>> 
> 
> I used a $25.00 surplus OCXO. Eventually I may invest in something better
> but then I would have to get a timing GPS to go with it. Currently I am
> using the $40.00 Adafruit module.

Hopefully you got lucky with your OCXO. Others have had to buy a few dozen
before they got a “good” one. 

> 
>> 
>> Is a pure software solution good enough?
>> 
> 
> Mine is almost all software, but it has a TIC that consists of a 74HC4046
> phase detector chip, a diode, a cap, and 2 resistors, feeding an A/D input
> of the Arduino processor board. This gives a resolution of 1 ns.

….. but can you relate resolution to stability / accuracy / noise and all the other things that
need to be checked. Resolution is normally the easy part….This example gets directly back to
the test gear question. 

> 
>> 
>> Each of those decisions (and that’s by no means a full list) will send you
>> off
>> in a very different direction.
>> 
> For sure!
> 
>> 
>> 4) How long is this likely to take?
>> 
>> Best guess based on the others who have done the same thing - several
>> years.
>> 
> 
> I have been at it on and off for about two years but I have learned a lot
> along the way.
> 
>> 
>> 5) How much is this likely to cost?
>> 
>> If done the way others have done it, several thousand dollars up to
>> quite a bit more than that.
>> 
> 
> My total investment (not including the scope, DMM, and laptop PC) is under
> $200.

….. but you really do not know what it’s doing  in all respects. My example 
was targeted at a more fully worked out solution. Again it’s a matter of “what
is your target"


> 
>> 
>> 6) How much research is involved?
>> 
>> Quite a bit. The information you need is scattered all over the place.
>> Figure
>> that you likely will read at least several hundred papers. There is a whole
>> statistical language that is unique to these gizmos. This is *not* a
>> follow a
>> set recipe sort of project.
>> 
> 
> Again, depends on your answer to #3. I started with a working design and
> code and modified it to suit my fancy. I am pleased with the result. It
> keeps the brain cells firing.
> 
>> 
>> Lots of fun !!!
>> 
> 
> Absolutely!!


Bob

> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> --Jim Harman
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From walter2 at sphere.bc.ca  Wed Jan 27 18:33:41 2016
From: walter2 at sphere.bc.ca (walter shawlee 2)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:33:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] more is revealed about OCXO harmonics & level
Message-ID: <56A953D5.1020307@sphere.bc.ca>

I decided to rip the add-on board apart, and go right to the oscilloquartz 8633 
output.
no surprise, >0dBm level, but alas, 20Mhz harmonics are only -35 dB down, and 
there's one at 30, etc..  hmm, what does this really mean?  well, when in doubt, 
go back and look at the data:

http://www.sungwhatech.com/product/pdf/aging/8663.pdf

rats, *the spec is only -25dBc for harmonics*.  phase noise looks good, as does 
stability, but
now I understand why I am seeing these spurs, it's in spec!  it does look like 
my level is out of spec though, I cannot get +4dBm even right from the module, 
perhaps that's why these units became surplus.  the date code on my OCXO 8663-XS 
is 2008.  I cannot identify what the X part of the dash number means, maybe 
lower output with my luck?

to make the board a bit safer to use, I made up a resistive splitter with 2 51R 
carbon resistors, and slipped ferrite beads on the leads to help control high 
frequency harmonic content.  I can now run the counter and SA at the same time, 
and get maybe -2dBm outputs, closer to 0dBm if I use only one.
if I add my outboard 10MHz bandpass filter, harmonics drop into the grass at 
-60dBm, but level goes to -5dBm.

clearly not as nice as the FE5680A Rb unit, but I will leave it in there just 
for comparison. I think I will filter one output, and leave one raw, since I 
have 2 jacks already at the front for outputs. but this was very instructive, I 
really did not expect to see so much harmonic content from a precision OCXO 
sinewave crystal oscillator.  a quick cross check on some of my other hp/FE 
ovenized standards in the lab does not show this kind of unwanted content.

what kind of results does everyone else get?

all the best,
walter

-- 
Walter Shawlee 2, President
Sphere Research Corporation
3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 27 18:31:39 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:31:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <20160127220429.9d8d26b4316cc86a40b3d074@kinali.ch>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
 <20160127220429.9d8d26b4316cc86a40b3d074@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <97FFF169-B128-4439-931B-1C4B73A72302@n1k.org>

Hi

(a few minor additions ..)

> On Jan 27, 2016, at 4:04 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> Moin,
> 
> As no-one seems to want to answer the GPS related questions....
> 
> 
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 19:04:10 -0500
> timenut at metachaos.net wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Paradoxically, I have no interest in time. As in time of day, day of week,
>> etc.. I have never had a job where I got to work on time. My philosophy has
>> always been "go to bed when sleepy, get up when not". I was notorious in high
>> school for only showing up on test day. But, I am interested in being able to
>> timestamp events accurately and in measuring time (and other things). I am
>> also interested in how a very accurate frequency source can be used in
>> other applications and test instruments. That brings me to my desire to build
>> a GPSDO and my questions.
> 
> I have wirtten a couple of mails with references to popular GPSDO's
> a couple of times in the past. You might want to have a look at them
> and the discussions they were in:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2012-March/064873.html
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2013-June/077368.html
> 
> 
>> I have also been researching GPS antennas. From what I can see there are two
>> basic types - the flat puck and the helical. 
> 
> There are actually many more, but the cross dipole, the spiral antenna
> and the two you mentioned are by far the most popular ones.
> 
> 
>> I have not seen anything to
>> distinguish the two types based on performance or usage or to indicate that
>> one or the other might be better for GPS timing.
> 
> What makes good antennas and what not is actually not that easy to define.
> There was a discussion on this last spring. look for
> "Important parameters for a GPS/GNSS antenna" in the archives.
> 
>> However, I have seen "GPS
>> Timing Reference Antennas" advertised. Most or all of those appear to be
>> helical. But, I have not seen anything that specifies the difference between 
>> an active GPS antenna and an active GPS Timing Reference Antenna.
> 
>>   1. What is the difference between a "normal" GPS antenna and a GPS Timing
>>      Reference antenna? What features are of interest?
> 
> The timing reference antennas are usually build by manufacturers with the
> intended use for high precision instruments. Either timing or geodetic survey.
> Their parameters are more strictly controlled, they have (usually) a more
> stable phase center and some of them are also dual band (L1/L2).
> 
> Unless you need sub-ns stability and accuracy or have a dual band receiver,
> go for a standard antenna.

One more parameter - they are designed to be outdoors pretty much forever and ever. 
The “rain sealing” details are much better addressed than a normal mag mount antenna. 

> 
> 
>>   2. Is there anything extra needed besides a GPS antenna to enable the use
>>      of WAAS or other services? Apparently the ubolt receivers can make use
>>      of some of that, but it is not clear what is needed to provide that
>>      information to them, or if they just pick it up automatically using a
>>      standard GPS antenna.
> 
> I am not sure what the LEA modules need to active WAAS/EGNOS/etc, it's
> probably listed under one of the commands in the protocol reference.
> 
> You don't need any special antenna for those, as these augmentation
> services use the same frequency as L1 GPS.
> 
>> Also, from what I have read, using carrier phase for timing is potentially
>> more accurate by a couple orders of magnitude. Are there any GPS timing
>> receivers available that use carrier phase? 
> 
> Yes, but they are darn expensive.
> 
>> Or use both L1 and L2 for increased accuracy? 
> 
> Yes, but again, expensive.


As in your “GPS module” goes from $40 to $4,000. Your antenna goes from 
$40 to $1.5K if bought new. 

> 
>> I see that the ubolt receivers can report some carrier
>> phase information, but that doesn't appear to translate to increased accuracy.
> 
> If anything, it would lead to higher precision ;-)
> 
> The reason why carrier phase tracking does not lead to large improvements
> is because most receivers are single frequency receivers which cannot
> directly calculate the ionospheric corrections. Thus they have to rely
> on predictions send out by the GPS satellites (and by WAAS/EGNOS).
> But even with those predictions, the ionospheric terms will dominate
> the error. Thus there is very little gain from using carrier phase
> tracking over code phase only tracking for an L1 only receiver.

It *can* lead to higher performance, but then you need to correlate against a local 
precision site. That turns this into a pretty exotic / single task sort of device. 

> 
>> And the LEA M8T use dual channels, but don't appear to mix GPS and GLASNOS to
>> improve accuracy. Do any receivers do that?
> 
> I did not have a look at the M8T yet, so i cannot answer this.
> I am pretty sure that there are dual system timing receivers out there.


Yes you can set up M8’s to track multiple time standards. There is not much to gain by 
it at the moment due to the low(er) precision of the Glonass time system. 

=====

The other thing to consider is the need for sawtooth correction. This is what takes you 
from the (sort of) 10 ns level to the (maybe) sub 1 ns level. 

Bob

> 
> 
>> I suspect that building a GPS
>> receiver is probably more complex than can be easily handled by an amateur so
>> I am most likely restricted by available receivers.
> 
> Not really. I know of three people on this mailinglist who are
> doing exactly this. It is just a lot of work and takes a lot of time.
> The basics of a GPS receiver can be taught in an afternoon and would
> enable you to build your own. But, doing it right and and time-nut
> grade, with support for more than just L1 C/A requires quite a bit
> more understanding and even more time.
> 
> 
>> I have also read, more than once, statements in this forum that something or
>> another could be had for some low, low price so why build it yourself? I think
>> that there are several reasons, including but not limited to the following.
> 
> We don't ask here "why". If it's fun for you to do, go ahead. We wont
> question your reasons :-)
> 
> 
> 				Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> Reading can seriously damage your ignorance.
> 		-- unknown
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed Jan 27 18:40:27 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 00:40:27 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS PRN 32
In-Reply-To: <SVdCTVFSTiRbJDk5QDlQMTY0NTU3MzUzNQ@CHAZ-HP>
References: <SVdCTVFSTiRbJDk5QDlQMTY0NTU3MzUzNQ@CHAZ-HP>
Message-ID: <56A9556B.9030605@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Charles,

Considering how the UTC parameters (IS-GPS-200H, Table 20-IX and section 
20.3.3.5.2.4) got upset for some of the SVNs, the correction from GPS 
time (as corrected for that PRN) into UTC got a shift of almost 13,7 us. 
As a GPS receiver receives information, solves for position and time 
(fixed timing receivers naturally only for time), correct into GPS time 
and then into UTC you end up with having to select the information from 
one of the GPS satellites for translating the GPS time into UTC time. 
Depending on the state of that GPS receiver, it may or may not select 
this bad info, and it may change selection at any time. That's why we 
have observed receivers of the same brand and same FW fail at different 
times, but starting having problems at the same trigger time. While 
there can be receivers that have some form of protection from this 
particular problem, I guess many don't, and in this case, the specifics 
of the receiver FW and the actual state of the receiver may have cause 
the full range of heavy to no impact. I would be careful to make to much 
judgment of various receivers because of this. It is clear that it's a 
serous hit to at least most of them.

I remember the impacts from PRN 31 and PRN 32. The re-occuring GPS WN 
wrapping issue is another. This instance is rather unique in it being 
related to the ground infrastructure seems to have provided bad upload.

There is an intense amount of work behind the scenes. Some patience will 
be needed before even a minimalistic statement can be found.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 01/27/2016 09:38 AM, Charles Curry wrote:
> Update on PRN 32 / SVN 23
>
> According to the NANU this was decommissioned at 22:00 on the 25th. It was 25 years old http://archive.is/a8GI
>
> Some timing receivers experienced problems, some did not. Don't know why that is yet.
>
> So far our count is 8 different GPS timing receivers experiencing problems - ranging from mid '90's models, but still in service to the latest new devices. Problems included loss of lock, squelching of outputs, pulling the frequency off and massive pps jumps. In one case the output of a receiver was so bad it was rejected by the equipment it was feeding but the receiver did not alarm!
>
> A couple of units in my lab, based on the latest multi-constellation engine from a major supplier, one with Rb one with CSAC, exhibited 5 or 6 phase jump events from about 1:45 am until 12:30pm on the 26th. Our support team was kept busy from about 2 am on the 26th with at least 7 of our timing equipment customers reporting GPS errors.
>
> It looks like bad ephemeris was being broadcast from some satellites.
>
> I would say this is a similar problem to the April 1st 2014 Glonass outage reported here http://gpsworld.com/the-system-glonass-in-april-what-went-wrong/
>
> Charles
> charles.curry at chronos.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed Jan 27 19:00:58 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:00:58 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
Message-ID: <56A95A3A.4070900@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi Martin,

On 01/27/2016 05:49 PM, Martin Burnicki wrote:
> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> You know I want more details. ;-)
>>
>> I did see the report you guys sent to the USCG, good work there and good
>> report.
>
> Thanks.
>
> After we had received the first reports about GPS receiver showing a 13
> us time offset one of my colleagues who maintains the firmware of our
> GPS receivers started to investigate. Looking at the data sets decoded
> from the satellites he saw that temporarily the UTC correction parameter
> jumped from one or 2 nanoseconds to more than 13 microseconds.
>
> So he added some debug code which let the GPS receiver sent the
> satellite number plus the raw subframe words 7 and 8 as hex numbers to a
> monitor program which logged them to a file.

Several GPS receivers have support to output the raw data, and this is 
one very good reason. Being able to pull the interpreted data, the 
covariance matrix etc. and other state like raw pseudo-ranges and 
doppler data all helps. Being able to output RINEX is always very nice 
for many reasons. If I only had the time...

> Then we looked at the raw data, decoded the bits manually and found that
> some satellites were suspicious UTC correction data with a valid checksum.
>
> Here are some subframe words 7 and 8 captured starting around 2016-01-26
> 12:00 UTC from subframe 4 page 18, and the decoded parameters
> according to Figure 20-1, sheet 8 of IS-GPS-200H (printed page 83, PDF
> page 96)
> http://www.gps.gov/technical/icwg/IS-GPS-200H.pdf
>
> sv    sfw7       sfw8        wnt|tot      a0 bits    a0[us]
> 09 0x3FFFF1B3 0x23800017 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
> 07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
> 02 0x3FFFFFD5 0x3FD39644 --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
> 06 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
> 23 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
> 30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 26 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
> 07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
> 09 0x3FFFF1B3 0x23800017 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
> 02 0x3FFFFFD5 0x3FD39644 --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
> 30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 06 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
> 23 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
> 16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
> 09 0x00000000 0x0098D642 --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
> 30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 02 0x3FFFFFD5 0x3FD39644 --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
> 05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 23 0x3FFFF18C 0x23800028 --> 00|000000: 0xFFFFC68E  -13.696 *
> 06 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
> 16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 07 0x3FFFFFEA 0x3FD3967B --> 89|319488: 0xFFFFFFFF   -0.001
> 09 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
> 30 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 05 0x0000003F 0x0013965B --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000
> 02 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
> 06 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
> 23 0x0000003F 0x0098D67D --> 89|405504: 0x00000002   +0.002
> 16 0x00000000 0x00139664 --> 89|319488: 0x00000000   +0.000

It's interesting to see how consistent these errors are.
On the other hand, it is interesting to see how it varies even for the 
same PRN. Look at how PRN 09 varies between +0.002 us and -13.696 us.

> You see that SVs 09, 06, 23, and 26 sent a tot time 0 and a correction
> parameter A0 of -13.696 microseconds, while the A0 parameter received
> from healthy satellites was only 1 or 2 nanoseconds, as usual, and the
> week number wnt matches the current week number, truncated to 8 bit.
>
> Eventually there were even more satellites sending faulty data, but
> these were the ones we could track at our location.
>
> You can also see that in the last lines the A0 value sent by SVs 6, 9,
> and 23 was "normal" again, so we happily just captured a few of the last
> wrong data sets.
>
> All data captured after this was OK again. Please find the full set of
> debug output in the attached text file.
>
> Unfortunately there was no time stamp in the debug output, but we know
> the satellites repeat the same page 4 once every 12 minutes.

Many thanks for that wealth of data.

Cheers,
Magnus

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Jan 27 19:26:16 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 19:26:16 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] more is revealed about OCXO harmonics & level
In-Reply-To: <56A953D5.1020307@sphere.bc.ca>
References: <56A953D5.1020307@sphere.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <F3E8C778-2A8A-47BD-91F6-BF3ACF487850@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:33 PM, walter shawlee 2 <walter2 at sphere.bc.ca> wrote:
> 
> I decided to rip the add-on board apart, and go right to the oscilloquartz 8633 output.
> no surprise, >0dBm level, but alas, 20Mhz harmonics are only -35 dB down, and there's one at 30, etc..  hmm, what does this really mean?  well, when in doubt, go back and look at the data:
> 
> http://www.sungwhatech.com/product/pdf/aging/8663.pdf
> 
> rats, *the spec is only -25dBc for harmonics*.  phase noise looks good, as does stability, but
> now I understand why I am seeing these spurs, it's in spec!  it does look like my level is out of spec though, I cannot get +4dBm even right from the module, perhaps that's why these units became surplus.  the date code on my OCXO 8663-XS is 2008.  I cannot identify what the X part of the dash number means, maybe lower output with my luck?

The X probably means “OEM spec”. That could cover anything.

> 
> to make the board a bit safer to use, I made up a resistive splitter with 2 51R carbon resistors, and slipped ferrite beads on the leads to help control high frequency harmonic content.  I can now run the counter and SA at the same time, and get maybe -2dBm outputs, closer to 0dBm if I use only one.
> if I add my outboard 10MHz bandpass filter, harmonics drop into the grass at -60dBm, but level goes to -5dBm.

The output may or may not have a pad between it’s output filter and the pin you are working with. If there is no pad, anything you hang on the output will interact with the internal filter. The result is best described as “unpredictable”. The solution if you have a lot of output is to put on a pad. Since you have low output, an amp and a filter are your best bet. 

> 
> clearly not as nice as the FE5680A Rb unit, but I will leave it in there just for comparison.


It likely is *much* better in terms of phase noise, spurs (close in), and ADEV at < 100 seconds. 

> I think I will filter one output, and leave one raw, since I have 2 jacks already at the front for outputs. but this was very instructive, I really did not expect to see so much harmonic content from a precision OCXO sinewave crystal oscillator.  a quick cross check on some of my other hp/FE ovenized standards in the lab does not show this kind of unwanted content.
> 
> what kind of results does everyone else get?

On the Chinese stuff:

A lot of what I get has maybe -7 dbm out or gets really hot…The ones that don’t fail at that
point don’t meet any sort of reasonable spec when run over temperature. 

On the North American stuff:

They seem to be fine on output, temperature and usually do pretty well over temperature. 
The only knock on them has been ADEV. 

Bob


> 
> all the best,
> walter
> 
> -- 
> Walter Shawlee 2, President
> Sphere Research Corporation
> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
> walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jan 27 20:44:44 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:44:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <D288EA8F-29B9-4262-9771-334E6BB26965@n1k.org>
References: <D288EA8F-29B9-4262-9771-334E6BB26965@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <1713286076.2136176.1453945485194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

The boards also contain the input attenuator, input clamp diodes, high impedance buffer and various threshold, hysteresis and risetime setting controls as well as the polarity select controls. Apart from a dual opamp that sums some control signals and LC low pass filters on the supply line and a couple of input coupling capacitors there is little else.
NB the interconnection inductance in series with the emitters of a long tailed pair ultimately limits its bandwidth. Adding a small series resistor will extend the bandwidth at the expense of the gain. The gain can be made up with additional stages.When using individually packaged transistors (or chips in a hybrid) this is about the only option  apart from using monolithic differential pairs with a low inductance emitter emitter connection.

Bruce
  

    On Thursday, 28 January 2016 1:04 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
 

 Hi

Ok, what else is on the same board as the front end? 

Is this a “chop a big hole in the board” project or is it a more elegant, replace the whole board approach. If you are just going to chop 
a hole in the board, what else buried in there. 

There is way more to this than just an input circuit. 

Bob


> On Jan 27, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> Something like the attached schematic should suffice however an extra gain stage would probably be necessary to achieve the 100mV sensitivity.NB Vcc = 15V, Vee = -15V.
> Bruce
> 
> 
>    On Thursday, 28 January 2016 5:02 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Some great comments and like all of you I like my 5370s and 5345s. Real
> buttons no mouse. Must be a throw back to the dark ages.
> Always knew about the fan issue on the 5370 and have added fans to my main
> operating unit.
> But it had not occurred to me that the way the front panel is laid out
> there may be little actual airflow across those chips. Thats quite a
> thought.
> So for those with working units that may be a completely seperate thread.
> How hot do they get? Then some solution for that.
> Essentially fix it before it dies.
> Then there is the question I posed.
> Skipping all of the details like adjustable slicing polarity and such. What
> is the minimum to get a signal into the counter as a way to return it to
> some usable service and certainly verify the bad frontend. Lets call this a
> poor but useful answer.
> From that point it returns to this discussion.
> But a full new front panel. As Perry says most likely not.
> I do have 2 X5345s that I am pretty sure I need to dive into the front end
> on. My excuse other projects...
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.
>> 
>> Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s
>> probably low). How many are people likely to buy?
>> 
>> If so how much would you pay for a working 5370?
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
>> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take
>> more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front
>> panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is -
>> why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the
>> counter with way less effort…..
>>> Well, I have two reasons not to.
>>> First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU
>> boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living
>> daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
>>> Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I
>> have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
>>> Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it
>> seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on
>> the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing
>> still was too hot.
>>> IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
>> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it
>> will be a while before I can work on mine.
>>> I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try
>> better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors,
>> install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in
>> the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the
>> afore mentioned.
>>> I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
>> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I
>> will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before.
>> And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
>>> Regards,
>>> Perrier
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> <5370FrontEnd.PNG>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


  

From djl at montana.com  Wed Jan 27 15:12:15 2016
From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 13:12:15 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <56A8E03B.3050101@karlquist.com>
References: <BLU182-W654A21C26F362C9EE693DFBC40@phx.gbl>
 <56A8E03B.3050101@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <c733c36c927b650de157f92dacc7133f.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>

I have two A's and one B, and two Beaglebone replacements. I'm interested. If
we even had a block diagram, we'd be ahead!
Don

Richard (Rick) Karlquist
> On 1/22/2016 2:14 PM, Mathew Breton wrote:
>> I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
>> probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
>> of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
>> 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
>> This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source
>> drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
>> as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
>> range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
>> E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
>> I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
>> would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
>> detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
>> In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time
>> dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
>> (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
>> Regards,
>> Mat Breton
>
> I would like to mention that the "father" of the 5370,
> David Chu, retired from Agilent a few years ago.  He
> might be receptive to giving you some advice about
> your project.  He is still very sharp technically.
> If there is sufficient interest,  I might be able
> to arrange for an introduction.  It would be helpful
> if we had a show of hands on time nuts as to how many
> people on time nuts are interested in this board.
> David was one of the best engineers in the history
> of the Santa Clara division and the fact that the
> 5370 lives on is a testimony to how far ahead of
> its time the design was, some 40 years ago.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
-------------------------------
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



From biwa at att.net  Wed Jan 27 19:22:51 2016
From: biwa at att.net (Burt I. Weiner)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 16:22:51 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Equipment Running Hot as Heck...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2943.1453939472.24750.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.2943.1453939472.24750.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <459719.74461.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Don,

Something to be careful of... Be sure the mains voltage switch is set 
properly. I had a HP-3336A that ran hot like that. Like you, I put 
bigger and bigger heat sinks on the regulator, but all that seemed to 
do was make the bigger heat sinks as "hot as heck" also. What I 
discovered was that the mains voltage selector was set to 100 volts. 
I reset it to 120, (or was it 117) and it ran much cooler.

Burt, K6OQK


From: "Don Latham" <djl at montana.com>

Someone has already probably said, watch out for switching regulators.  BTW,
almost all the Hp instruments I have from the 80's era run hot as heck. I have
put on fans and piggybacked more fins (and more fins, and more fins...).  A
Military version of the 5328A counter I have has what sounds like a leaf
blower in it, with a proportional controller added.
If you do some work with switchers, I'm sure the list would be very interested!
Don

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
biwa at att.net
www.biwa.cc
K6OQK 


From alexpcs at ieee.org  Wed Jan 27 21:27:21 2016
From: alexpcs at ieee.org (Alexander Pummer)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:27:21 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <3987191.0yxxWdDovu@linux>
References: <CAD2JfAiiQbDEmhTnXZLxYB3uCX5Jppx_B=+tmnOOAfGsfGk--w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2101021096.168619.1453927096062.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3987191.0yxxWdDovu@linux>
Message-ID: <56A97C89.9060102@ieee.org>

there are amplifiers with multiple GHz gain bandwidth product, 
[http://electronicdesign.com/analog/18-27-ghz-chip-set-operates-little-18-v] 
also the high speed  ECL line receivers have available gain 
[http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn65lvds4.pdf]
73
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 1/27/2016 2:22 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
> Achieving a bandwidth of 100MHz is easy. To get useful output at 500MHz
> inductive peaking of the collector loads of the input stage will be required.
> Correctly proportioned Bridged T-coils should work well.
> Cascoding the input stage may also help.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 08:38:15 PM Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>> Something like the attached schematic should suffice however an extra gain
>> stage would probably be necessary to achieve the 100mV sensitivity.NB Vcc =
>> 15V, Vee = -15V. Bruce
>>
>>
>>      On Thursday, 28 January 2016 5:02 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>   Some great comments and like all of you I like my 5370s and 5345s. Real
>> buttons no mouse. Must be a throw back to the dark ages.
>> Always knew about the fan issue on the 5370 and have added fans to my main
>> operating unit.
>> But it had not occurred to me that the way the front panel is laid out
>> there may be little actual airflow across those chips. Thats quite a
>> thought.
>> So for those with working units that may be a completely seperate thread.
>> How hot do they get? Then some solution for that.
>> Essentially fix it before it dies.
>> Then there is the question I posed.
>> Skipping all of the details like adjustable slicing polarity and such.. What
>> is the minimum to get a signal into the counter as a way to return it to
>> some usable service and certainly verify the bad frontend. Lets call this a
>> poor but useful answer.
>>  From that point it returns to this discussion.
>> But a full new front panel. As Perry says most likely not.
>> I do have 2 X5345s that I am pretty sure I need to dive into the front end
>> on. My excuse other projects...
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.
>>>
>>> Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s
>>> probably low). How many are people likely to buy?
>>>
>>> If so how much would you pay for a working 5370?
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take
>>> more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire
>>> front
>>> panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is -
>>> why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as
>>> the
>>> counter with way less effort…..
>>>
>>>> Well, I have two reasons not to.
>>>> First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU
>>> boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living
>>> daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
>>>
>>>> Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I
>>> have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
>>>
>>>> Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it
>>> seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s)
>>> on
>>> the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the
>>> thing
>>> still was too hot.
>>>
>>>> IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
>>> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it
>>> will be a while before I can work on mine.
>>>
>>>> I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try
>>> better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors,
>>> install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in
>>> the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the
>>> afore mentioned.
>>>
>>>> I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
>>> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I
>>> will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment
>>> before.
>>> And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Perrier
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the
>> instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7357 / Virus Database: 4522/11495 - Release Date: 01/27/16


From timenut at metachaos.net  Wed Jan 27 19:56:22 2016
From: timenut at metachaos.net (timenut at metachaos.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 19:56:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <97FFF169-B128-4439-931B-1C4B73A72302@n1k.org>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net> 
 <20160127220429.9d8d26b4316cc86a40b3d074@kinali.ch>
 <97FFF169-B128-4439-931B-1C4B73A72302@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <6610460997.20160127195622@metachaos.net>

Bob, et. al.,

Thanks for the advice and information. That has helped a lot in closing some
holes and gives me a lot to consider. I am continuing to research and learn,
this is not a short term project as in building it this week or month. I need
to learn and work up to the full project. I will probably start small with
pieces and gather what equipment I can. Like many of my projects, this one
will probably have multiple sub-projects. Especially if I manage to snag test
equipment that needs repair.

Regrettably, the 260 was ordered from China, there were none from the US when
I ordered. I did know that it would be a crap shoot, but for $26 it was
something I could get now. I might even be lucky!

I am planning on including sawtooth correction in hardware. But, I have a good
bit to learn for that. It appears to be fairly simple given your processor
reads the sawtooth correction from the GPS receiver and sets up a programmable
delay for each cycle.

I have a dozen pieces floating in my head, I am certain I will be back for
more advice.

Thanks again.


Mike


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Wed Jan 27 06:04:37 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 03:04:37 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: Message from Artek Manuals <Manuals@ArtekManuals.com>
 of "Tue, 26 Jan 2016 10:32:50 EST." <56A791A2.2020309@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <20160127110437.41C49406060@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


Manuals at ArtekManuals.com said:
> Hal makes a good point the Z3801 RS232 port is not exactly standard make
> sure the COM port settings in Z38xx and in the set up on the computer
> (CONTROL PANEL) are set to 19200baud, 7, 1, ODD. BOTH have to be set up  as
> these are not computer industry "standard" 

The other non-standard part of the Z3801A is that it comes setup for RS422 
rather than RS232.  So I'd check with a scope during power up before doing 
anything more complicated.

There are jumpers inside so it's easy to switch to RS-232.  But it might work 
most of the time without that if you get the wiring right and are lucky, and 
any particular USB gismo might not be lucky enough.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Wed Jan 27 18:27:43 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:27:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 58503A does not track
In-Reply-To: <1403951695.15414548.1453826380961.JavaMail.root@zimbra13-e2.priv.proxad.net>
References: <1403951695.15414548.1453826380961.JavaMail.root@zimbra13-e2.priv.proxad.net>
Message-ID: <56A9526F.4030603@ArtekManuals.com>

Claude

Are you using the same software on the same computer platform for the 
whole time?

By example  I have a Z3801 which works sometimes under Z38xx and 
sometimes not, while SATSTAT works all the time. I did find some flaky 
things going on with the software and was finding that I had to close 
Z38xx and reopen it after every command to change something?

Dave


On 1/26/2016 11:39 AM, claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr wrote:
> Hello list !
>
> I have a HP 58503A who  worked fine for two years.
> After a short power cut, it does not lock on GPS. I tried some commandsn  including :SYST:PRESET but nothing works
>
> Here's a :SYSTEM:STATUS ? after the PRESET and after waiting a few hours :
>
>
> ------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------
>
> SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
> SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
>     Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
>     Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
>     Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
>                                                Predict  --
>
> ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
> Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
>                     PRN  El  Az                UTC      16:06:43 [?] 29 Feb 2016
>                     * 1  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
>                     * 6  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
>                     * 9  -- ---                Position ________________________
>                     *14  -- ---                MODE     Survey:      0% complete
>                     *22  -- ---                         Suspended: track <4 sats
>                     *24  -- ---                INIT LAT N 596:30:43.423
>                                                INIT LON E 596:31:10.845
> ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track                      +21474708.00 m  (MSL)
> HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
> Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK
>
> I tried to set the date with :GPS:INIT:DATE 2016,01,26 but this command has no effect.
>
> Setting the LAT and LON with :GPS:POS «myposition» works.
>
> ------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------
>   
> SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
> SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
>     Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
>     Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
>     Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
>                                                Predict  --
>                                                  
> ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
> Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
>                     PRN  El  Az                UTC      02:58:13 [?] 24 Mar 2016
>                     * 3  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
>                     * 4  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
>                     * 8  -- ---                Position ________________________
>                     * 9  -- ---                MODE     Hold
>                     *23  -- ---
>                     *29  -- ---                LAT      N    blah blah
>                                                LON      E    blah blah
> ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track       HGT              +194.57 m  (MSL)
> HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
> Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK
>
>
> But the unit is still not tracking, it sees the birds because the PRN are changing but
> does not calculate the "El" and "Az"  ...
>
> Here is the output of  :DIAGnostic:LOG:READ:ALL?
>
> Log 001:20160122.00:00:00:  Log cleared
> Log 002:20160122.00:00:00:  System preset
> Log 003:20160122.00:00:35:  Self-test failed
> Log 004:20160122.00:12:38:  Position hold mode started
>
> As you can see, the date is 2016-01-22, it's the date when the power cut happened .
>
> And when I run  :GPSYSTEM:POSITION:SURVEY ONCE, I get the same first status with crazy
> lattidude and longitude.
>
>
> Finally a self test *TST? gives +0 and the ALARM LED and the LOCK LED are off.
>
> I've tried with a second antenna and have the same problem :-(
>
> Can someone give me an advice for this problem ? The receiver looks dead, no ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Claude
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


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From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Wed Jan 27 23:20:13 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 04:20:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <c733c36c927b650de157f92dacc7133f.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>
References: <c733c36c927b650de157f92dacc7133f.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>
Message-ID: <193495149.1382024.1453954813796.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>

Since the response needs to extend to dc the first suggestion doesnt fit well.ECL receivers are OK but the faster ones tend to fail with too much input >  4Vpp??.An npn long-tailed pair with a 16mA tail current will still be required for the output stage.

Bruce 

    On Thursday, 28 January 2016 5:02 PM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
 

 I have two A's and one B, and two Beaglebone replacements. I'm interested. If
we even had a block diagram, we'd be ahead!
Don

Richard (Rick) Karlquist
> On 1/22/2016 2:14 PM, Mathew Breton wrote:
>> I was gifted an HP 5370B with the usual problem: front-end problems,
>> probably due to overstress. It is currently up and running again with a set
>> of 5345A series A3/A4 boards as I wasn't able to get a cheap pair of
>> 5088-706x hybrid ICs.
>> This sounds like a common problem. As a result, I'm designing an open-source
>> drop-in (hopefully) replacement. My hat is off to the original IC designer,
>> as it is not a trivial effort due to the wide input signal common-mode
>> range, and very tight trigger timing requirements. Other items (like the
>> E-ECL) output) are also adding a bit of extra effort.
>> I'm hoping that someone(s) might be interested in working with me on it. I
>> would like to have my assumptions and math checked before I start the
>> detailed design phase, and perhaps contribute some better ideas.
>> In addition, it would be really helpful if someone could run a few rise-time
>> dispersion tests on an instrument with a working "B"-series A3/A4 PCB set
>> (my unit obviously doesn't qualify).
>> Regards,
>> Mat Breton
>
> I would like to mention that the "father" of the 5370,
> David Chu, retired from Agilent a few years ago.  He
> might be receptive to giving you some advice about
> your project.  He is still very sharp technically.
> If there is sufficient interest,  I might be able
> to arrange for an introduction.  It would be helpful
> if we had a show of hands on time nuts as to how many
> people on time nuts are interested in this board.
> David was one of the best engineers in the history
> of the Santa Clara division and the fact that the
> 5370 lives on is a testimony to how far ahead of
> its time the design was, some 40 years ago.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> HP Santa Clara Division 1979-1998
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>


-- 
Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.
Lucky is he who has been able to understand the causes of things.
Virgil
-------------------------------
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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From richard at karlquist.com  Wed Jan 27 23:34:30 2016
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 20:34:30 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Equipment Running Hot as Heck...
In-Reply-To: <459719.74461.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.2943.1453939472.24750.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <459719.74461.bm@smtp116.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <56A99A56.3050401@karlquist.com>

Vintage HP equipment often had HP made power transformers,
which ran all the time whether the equipment was on or off.
The core loss while idling could be fairly high.  The
core was usually just below saturation, so that if the
power switch was on 100V, it would really get hot.

There was some logic analyzer model that HP engineers
referred to as the "logic furnace" because it ran
so hot.

Rick Karlquist N6RK

On 1/27/2016 4:22 PM, Burt I. Weiner wrote:
> Don,
>
> Something to be careful of... Be sure the mains voltage switch is set
> properly. I had a HP-3336A that ran hot like that. Like you, I put
> bigger and bigger heat sinks on the regulator, but all that seemed to do
> was make the bigger heat sinks as "hot as heck" also. What I discovered
> was that the mains voltage selector was set to 100 volts. I reset it to
> 120, (or was it 117) and it ran much cooler.
>
> Burt, K6OQK
>
>
> From: "Don Latham" <djl at montana.com>
>
> Someone has already probably said, watch out for switching regulators.
> BTW,
> almost all the Hp instruments I have from the 80's era run hot as heck.
> I have
> put on fans and piggybacked more fins (and more fins, and more fins...).  A
> Military version of the 5328A counter I have has what sounds like a leaf
> blower in it, with a proportional controller added.
> If you do some work with switchers, I'm sure the list would be very
> interested!
> Don
>
> Burt I. Weiner Associates
> Broadcast Technical Services
> Glendale, California  U.S.A.
> biwa at att.net
> www.biwa.cc
> K6OQK
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Tue Jan 26 18:16:12 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 18:16:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] low noise multiplication to 100 MHz
In-Reply-To: <BAY180-W51FEBED4C4BE6C8408A35294D80@phx.gbl>
References: <270ebd.5a9a0638.43d83a6a@aol.com> <56A71747.8040605@erols.com>
 <BAY180-W51FEBED4C4BE6C8408A35294D80@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <56A7FE3C.7040303@erols.com>

Back years ago I was a dealer for Aoyue rework stations,
so I use one of those.  They are all knockoff's of Hakko
stations, and frankly any that has a servo'd heat source
would do nicely.  What I sold had a digital temperature
control, and a flow meter to show how fast the air was
flowing.... kind of important to know, but you can wing
it easily enough.

There are scads of special tips available for all sorts
of different package types.  For small stuff, I use the
smallest round air nozzle... which is about 1/8 inch.  If
I am doing a large QPF package, I will often take the time
to put the right manifold/nozzle on the unit.  It depends
a lot on whether I am just scrapping parts off of a board,
or am trying to save the part/board.

Under board heating is very important to your success.

Back when I sold Aoyue, they were going for about $230,
which was pretty reasonable.  You can get them direct from
China cheaper than that... which is why I don't sell them
anymore.

-Chuck Harris

Bryan _ wrote:
> Chuck, what do you use for a hot air source. The good ones are very expensive.
> Wonder if there is something for the hobbyist. Have seen a few repair videos where
> they used just used a hot air stripper. I had to yank a couple SMD resistors off a
> board the other day and had to use two soldering irons at each end of the resistor
> <g>. If they are small enough you can add a glob of solder to the whole resistor,
> so both ends will melt. Cheers
>
> -=Bryan=-

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 27 08:26:11 2016
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 07:26:11 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Working with surface mount components
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tL82AqCJbZKK52Fk+oMN5Z78BJadFRZYXapzDXZhWsk8A@mail.gmail.com>

I have been reading the posts regarding working with surface mount
components with great interest. One thing I think I should caution against.
That is soldering capacitors with a soldering iron. Some years ago, when
the folks I work for were just changing over to surface mount from through
hole, I was making all my prototypes using a soldering iron. I used a
fairly low temperature and thought it was perfectly acceptable. That is
until one of my prototypes failed at a customer's location. They called,
returned the part, and demanded to know exactly why it failed. Plus, they
wanted a "corrective action." Those familiar with ISO 9000 will know what
that means. After a brief investigation, I found a capacitor that was
intermittent. I could flex the board and the thing would work. Let it go
and it failed. So, I un soldered the cap and called the manufacturer. I
didn't really expect them to do anything but I insisted on sending the part
back for them to look at. A week or two later, one of their engineers
called me and asked how I soldered the parts. I told him I used a soldering
iron. He said that was my problem. I was causing micro fractures by uneven
heating. He said never, ever solder a surface mount capacitor with a
soldering iron. I took his advice and we have had no more problems with bad
caps. Most of our products are injection molded and we do have a problem
with the plastic blowing inductors off the board during molding. That, and
the plastic drasticlly changes the RF characteristics of the circuit.

From eaguayo at thinksrs.com  Tue Jan 26 12:58:58 2016
From: eaguayo at thinksrs.com (Estanislao Aguayo)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 09:58:58 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Tom Van Baak: a conversation about GPS timing
Message-ID: <56A7B3E2.7060404@thinksrs.com>

Hello Time-nuts mailing list,

Let me introduce myself, my name is Tani Aguayo, I am a physicist 
working on precision clocks for Stanford Research Systems (SRS). We had 
the pleasure of having Tom Van Baak visit our lab yesterday, and I want 
to write down some of the topics we talked about, and I thought this 
list would be a good place to keep it, and share it. And also have Tom 
go over it, and correct me if I got something wrong.

We talked GPS, and here is a couple of thought inducing comments from Tom:

Q: Why is there an timing offset of 20ns average between identical 
commercial off-the-shelf GPS modules?
TVB: A low-cost (~$25-$50) GPS receiver gathers timing information via a 
data lock to the local oscillator in the receiver, meaning the the 
timing information is based on data passed to the receiver and then the 
receiver uses that to produce a signal based on its own oscillator. This 
is one part of what can explain the differences between units, the 
stability of the receiver local clock will mask the precision  timing of 
the GPS 1 pps. The other part is that this timing data is based on the 
GPS antenna parameters, and so any disturbing effects (i.e. cable 
tempcos, impedance mismatches, active filtering in the antenna that 
could introduce group delays... ) on the transmission path from antenna 
to receiver, will affect the timing precision of the GPS 1pps at the 
receiver with respect to UTC.  This effect could change from unit to 
unit, as different antennas would have different effects on the signal.

Q: When it comes to using a GPSDO to measure timing performance (Sigma 
-Tau) any hiccups on GPS could make this calculation fail and you would 
not know until after the fact, is there a way around this dependence?
TVB: It is hard to get a beautiful 10MHz and see how in a matter of 
days, the timing quality is lost due to aging, tempcos, GPS hiccups... 
you name it. A better approach is to keep a log of your clock against 
GPS (without locking to it) and use an offline approach to compute your 
timing performance (Sigma-Tau) and this way you can look at your clock 
performance without mixing the GPS locking loop parameters.

Thank Tom for sharing this insight with us!

- Tani Aguayo







From claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr  Thu Jan 28 01:37:15 2016
From: claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr (claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:37:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [time-nuts] 58503A does not track
In-Reply-To: <56A9526F.4030603@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <1134533212.19787974.1453963035316.JavaMail.root@zimbra13-e2.priv.proxad.net>

Thanks for your reply

I don't think it's a computer problem because I can see the GPS is not locked when I compare the 10 MHz output with a Rubidium.
By the way, I don't use software but the screen command under Linux.

Maybe the motorola bord is dead, I will investigate this : I have to send commands directly to the board, as suggested by someone offlist.


The board in the GPSDO is a Motorola 84D43579M03 . The same as this one :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Z3801A-Z3805A-GPS-Module-Motorola-Oncore-P-N-84D43579M03-/161594138402?nma=true&si=jnWr5n2KQf1WL6JylF%252BMgtIr1%252FM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557


Do you think it can be replaced by this one :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Z3801A-Z3805A-GPS-Receiver-VP-oncore-B4121Z1116-/281670591394?hash=item4194e023a2



Thanks

Claude


----- Mail original -----
De: "Artek Manuals" <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com>
À: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Envoyé: Jeudi 28 Janvier 2016 00:27:43
Objet: Re: [time-nuts] 58503A does not track

Claude

Are you using the same software on the same computer platform for the 
whole time?

By example  I have a Z3801 which works sometimes under Z38xx and 
sometimes not, while SATSTAT works all the time. I did find some flaky 
things going on with the software and was finding that I had to close 
Z38xx and reopen it after every command to change something?

Dave


On 1/26/2016 11:39 AM, claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr wrote:
> Hello list !
>
> I have a HP 58503A who  worked fine for two years.
> After a short power cut, it does not lock on GPS. I tried some commandsn  including :SYST:PRESET but nothing works
>
> Here's a :SYSTEM:STATUS ? after the PRESET and after waiting a few hours :
>
>
> ------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------
>
> SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
> SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
>     Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
>     Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
>     Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
>                                                Predict  --
>
> ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
> Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
>                     PRN  El  Az                UTC      16:06:43 [?] 29 Feb 2016
>                     * 1  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
>                     * 6  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
>                     * 9  -- ---                Position ________________________
>                     *14  -- ---                MODE     Survey:      0% complete
>                     *22  -- ---                         Suspended: track <4 sats
>                     *24  -- ---                INIT LAT N 596:30:43.423
>                                                INIT LON E 596:31:10.845
> ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track                      +21474708.00 m  (MSL)
> HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
> Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK
>
> I tried to set the date with :GPS:INIT:DATE 2016,01,26 but this command has no effect.
>
> Setting the LAT and LON with :GPS:POS «myposition» works.
>
> ------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------
>   
> SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
> SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
>     Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
>     Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
>     Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
>                                                Predict  --
>                                                  
> ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
> Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
>                     PRN  El  Az                UTC      02:58:13 [?] 24 Mar 2016
>                     * 3  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
>                     * 4  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
>                     * 8  -- ---                Position ________________________
>                     * 9  -- ---                MODE     Hold
>                     *23  -- ---
>                     *29  -- ---                LAT      N    blah blah
>                                                LON      E    blah blah
> ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track       HGT              +194.57 m  (MSL)
> HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
> Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK
>
>
> But the unit is still not tracking, it sees the birds because the PRN are changing but
> does not calculate the "El" and "Az"  ...
>
> Here is the output of  :DIAGnostic:LOG:READ:ALL?
>
> Log 001:20160122.00:00:00:  Log cleared
> Log 002:20160122.00:00:00:  System preset
> Log 003:20160122.00:00:35:  Self-test failed
> Log 004:20160122.00:12:38:  Position hold mode started
>
> As you can see, the date is 2016-01-22, it's the date when the power cut happened .
>
> And when I run  :GPSYSTEM:POSITION:SURVEY ONCE, I get the same first status with crazy
> lattidude and longitude.
>
>
> Finally a self test *TST? gives +0 and the ALARM LED and the LOCK LED are off.
>
> I've tried with a second antenna and have the same problem :-(
>
> Can someone give me an advice for this problem ? The receiver looks dead, no ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Claude
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


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From p.boven at xs4all.nl  Thu Jan 28 01:58:05 2016
From: p.boven at xs4all.nl (Paul Boven)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:58:05 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
Message-ID: <56A9BBFD.4060909@xs4all.nl>

Hi Martin,

On 2016-01-27 17:49:52, Martin Burnicki wrote:
>>> We were able to track this down today at Meinberg.
>>>
>>> The problem was that some satellites were sending invalid UTC correction
>>> parameters. The UTC correction parameter set not only contains current
>>> leap second information but also coefficients (A0, A1, WNt, tot) for a
>>> polynomial used to compensate the fractional difference between GPS time
>>> and UTC(USNO).
>>>
>>> Today the faulty satellites sent about 13.7 microseconds for A0, and WNt
>>> as well as tot were both 0. So when the GPS receiver updated its UTC
>>> correction parameters from a faulty satellite the UTC correction jumped
>>> from close to 0 to about 13.7 microseconds, which let the UTC time step,
>>> and when the GPS receiver received the UTC parameter set from a healthy
>>> satellite the UTC time stepped back.

Thanks for posting this, it's great that you managed to actually record 
those frames. This explanation fits the observed behaviour (steps of 
around 13us all over the world) much better than a malfunction of SVN 
23. Furthermore, SVN 23 had already been decommissioned prior to these 
events.

Regards, Paul Boven.


From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue Jan 26 18:03:24 2016
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 23:03:24 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Cheap hot air station
Message-ID: <BLU181-W59A5ECF7205758E2676F40CED80@phx.gbl>

I'm partial to the Youyue 858d.  Not because it is particularly good,  but because there is some nice open-source firmware for it.  It's also rather inexpensive (around $40).   Note that there are a lot makers of xxxx-858d stations.  Not all use the AVR chip that the open source firmware runs on.

http://budgetlightforum.com/node/27876

-------------------

> Chuck, what do you use for a hot air source. 		 	   		  

From bjones0 at mindspring.com  Tue Jan 26 21:15:04 2016
From: bjones0 at mindspring.com (brian)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:15:04 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1453860904.9134.33.camel@mindspring.com>

This may be a dumb question, but I am new to using LadyHeather with my
Thunderbolt (previously it had been slaved to driving a clock display
but that broke, which made me get around to installing a serial card in
my linux box)...

Are these "events" something I should be able to see in LH?  If so what
should I be looking for?     I see a pair of off-setting events in the
graphs (a sharp negative spike in DAC Voltage & PPS, followed later by
a sharp positive spike of the same magnitude),  but not sure if I am
seeing what I want to see, of if this is actually what I am looking
for.

Off to study the LH Manual some more!

73,
Brian
KD4UYP


On Wed, 2016-01-27 at 01:15 +0100, Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 01/26/2016 11:46 PM, Martin Burnicki wrote:
> > Paul Boven wrote:
> > > Hi everyone,
> > > 
> > > Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
> > > I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio
> > > observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump
> > > compared to
> > > their in-house standards.
> > 
> > We were able to track this down today at Meinberg.
> > 
> > The problem was that some satellites were sending invalid UTC
> > correction
> > parameters. The UTC correction parameter set not only contains
> > current
> > leap second information but also coefficients (A0, A1, WNt, tot)
> > for a
> > polynomial used to compensate the fractional difference between GPS
> > time
> > and UTC(USNO).
> > 
> > Normally A0 (the constant offset) is very small, close to 0. WNt
> > and tot
> > give the week number (truncated to 8 bits) and second-of-week for
> > which
> > A0 is valid, i.e. the reference time for the time correction
> > parameters.
> > WNt is currently about 89.
> > 
> > Today the faulty satellites sent about 13.7 microseconds for A0,
> > and WNt
> > as well as tot were both 0. So when the GPS receiver updated its
> > UTC
> > correction parameters from a faulty satellite the UTC correction
> > jumped
> > from close to 0 to about 13.7 microseconds, which let the UTC time
> > step,
> > and when the GPS receiver received the UTC parameter set from a
> > healthy
> > satellite the UTC time stepped back.
> > 
> > We have recorded a few of the faulty subframe words. If someone is
> > interested I can provide more detailed information. However, I'm
> > currently out of the office and don't have the information here
> > right now.
> 
> You know I want more details. ;-)
> 
> I did see the report you guys sent to the USCG, good work there and
> good 
> report.
> 
> I also some another report showing issues with other SVNs.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Thu Jan 28 02:41:56 2016
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2016 23:41:56 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Tom Van Baak: a conversation about GPS timing
References: <56A7B3E2.7060404@thinksrs.com>
Message-ID: <C42DF6AE06504C1EBF97D5F187AC2B83@pc52>

Hi Tani,

> Q: Why is there an timing offset of 20ns average between identical 
> commercial off-the-shelf GPS modules?

Without testing I can't tell if 20 ns is normal for your receiver or not. It doesn't seem totally out of the ordinary but some investigation would be in order in case part of the problem is on your end. The paper I mentioned is:

Critical Evaluation of the Motorola M12+ GPS Timing Receiver vs.
the Master Clock at the United States Naval Observatory, Washington DC
http://www.gpstime.com/files/PTTI/PTTI_2002_CNS_Testbed.pdf

Here you can see even with a popular, vintage, high-end GPS timing receiver there are variations in time offset. A similar thing happened with they replaced the M12 with a ublox 6T:

Low cost GPS-based time and frequency products, an update
http://www.gpstime.com/files/PTTI/Low_cost_GPS-based_time_and_frequency_products.pdf

One thing we time-nuts can do is to measure N of your favorite GPS timing receivers and get a feel for the unit-to-unit variations. It would not surprise me if some are consistent at the 5 ns level while others at the 20 ns or 50 ns level. To further complicate matters, it sometimes also depends on the f/w version.

So precise, repeatable, absolute time is much harder to know for commodity "timing" receivers. Fortunately a GPSDO never actually needs to worry about this -- since it's all based on relative time, not absolute.


> Q: When it comes to using a GPSDO to measure timing performance (Sigma 
> -Tau) any hiccups on GPS could make this calculation fail and you would 


In general with a GPSDO, if you find a gradual departure in phase between GPS and your OCXO you can't be sure if the error is due to the GPS receiver or with the OCXO. This is all part of how a GPSDO works -- it makes an informed guess, and this is where filtering algorithms comes in. The *assumption* is that if there is a gradual, sustained change in phase that it's the OCXO's fault and so it is corrected to "close the loop". All this to maintain the 10 MHz output as close as possible in real-time.

The feature I mentioned is applicable to situations where one is making time/frequency measurements over the long-term. In this case there's no point in having a GPSDO make assumptions in real-time. Instead it's easier to just collect 1PPS phase differences and make retroactive corrections to the numerical phase or frequency counter readings after-the-fact. For example, glitches are easier to detect and remove if you have a full before/after history. And "disciplining" with post-facto numerical corrections to frequency readings are more accurate than having to correct an OCXO using a DAC and EFC h/w.

For example, in my lab, I tend not to use a GPSDO to compare a high-end clocks (Rb, Cs, H-Maser). Instead I just use a plain GPS/1PPS receiver. For these sorts of standards, a GPSDO can add nothing but noise to a measurement. But this "trick" only works if you are content to measure after-the-fact, not in real-time.

Does that help? Or further confuse things...

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Estanislao Aguayo" <eaguayo at thinksrs.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2016 9:58 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Tom Van Baak: a conversation about GPS timing


> Hello Time-nuts mailing list,
> 
> Let me introduce myself, my name is Tani Aguayo, I am a physicist 
> working on precision clocks for Stanford Research Systems (SRS). We had 
> the pleasure of having Tom Van Baak visit our lab yesterday, and I want 
> to write down some of the topics we talked about, and I thought this 
> list would be a good place to keep it, and share it. And also have Tom 
> go over it, and correct me if I got something wrong.
> 
> We talked GPS, and here is a couple of thought inducing comments from Tom:
> 
> Q: Why is there an timing offset of 20ns average between identical 
> commercial off-the-shelf GPS modules?
> TVB: A low-cost (~$25-$50) GPS receiver gathers timing information via a 
> data lock to the local oscillator in the receiver, meaning the the 
> timing information is based on data passed to the receiver and then the 
> receiver uses that to produce a signal based on its own oscillator. This 
> is one part of what can explain the differences between units, the 
> stability of the receiver local clock will mask the precision  timing of 
> the GPS 1 pps. The other part is that this timing data is based on the 
> GPS antenna parameters, and so any disturbing effects (i.e. cable 
> tempcos, impedance mismatches, active filtering in the antenna that 
> could introduce group delays... ) on the transmission path from antenna 
> to receiver, will affect the timing precision of the GPS 1pps at the 
> receiver with respect to UTC.  This effect could change from unit to 
> unit, as different antennas would have different effects on the signal.
> 
> Q: When it comes to using a GPSDO to measure timing performance (Sigma 
> -Tau) any hiccups on GPS could make this calculation fail and you would 
> not know until after the fact, is there a way around this dependence?
> TVB: It is hard to get a beautiful 10MHz and see how in a matter of 
> days, the timing quality is lost due to aging, tempcos, GPS hiccups... 
> you name it. A better approach is to keep a log of your clock against 
> GPS (without locking to it) and use an offline approach to compute your 
> timing performance (Sigma-Tau) and this way you can look at your clock 
> performance without mixing the GPS locking loop parameters.
> 
> Thank Tom for sharing this insight with us!
> 
> - Tani Aguayo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Jan 28 02:46:22 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:46:22 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
	System Anomaly
In-Reply-To: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
Message-ID: <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Fellow time-nuts,

Here is the official statement.

Cheers,
Magnus

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:13:13 +0000
From: Civil Global Positioning System Service Interface Committee 
(CGSIC) <cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil>
Reply-To: cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil
To: cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil <cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil>

All CGSIC:

Air Force Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly

    On 26 January at 12:49 a.m. MST, the 2nd Space Operations Squadron 
at the
50th Space Wing, Schriever Air Force Base, Colo., verified users were
experiencing GPS timing issues.  Further investigation revealed an issue in
the Global Positioning System ground software which only affected the time
on legacy L-band signals. This change occurred when the oldest vehicle, SVN
23, was removed from the constellation. While the core navigation systems
were working normally, the coordinated universal time timing signal was off
by 13 microseconds which exceeded the design specifications. The issue was
resolved at 6:10 a.m. MST, however global users may have experienced GPS
timing issues for several hours.  U.S. Strategic Command's Commercial
Integration Cell, operating out of the Joint Space Operations Center,
effectively served as the portal to determine the scope of commercial user
impacts.  Additionally, the Joint Space Operations Center at Vandenberg AFB
has not received any reports of issues with GPS-aided munitions, and has
determined that the timing error is not attributable to any type of outside
interference such as jamming or spoofing.  Operator procedures were modified
to preclude a repeat of this issue until the ground system software is
corrected, and the 50th Space Wing will conduct an Operational Review Board
to review procedures and impacts on users. Commercial and Civil users who
experienced impacts can contact the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center at
(703) 313-5900.
V/R
Rick Hamilton
CGSIC Executive Secretariat
GPS Information Analysis Team Lead
U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center
703-313-5930



-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
CGSIC one-way mailing list
Unsubscribe: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=listserverunsubscribe&srvr=cgsic

From martin.burnicki at burnicki.net  Thu Jan 28 03:05:42 2016
From: martin.burnicki at burnicki.net (Martin Burnicki)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:05:42 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <56A9CBD6.1090004@burnicki.net>

Paul Boven schrieb:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?
> I just heard from several geographically quite distributed radio
> observatories that they have seen their GPS receiver(s) jump compared to
> their in-house standards.

We have now received an official statement from USCG:

-----Original Message-----
> From: Hamilton, Stephen R CIV
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 8:13 PM
> To: 'cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil'
> Subject: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly
> 
> All CGSIC:
> 
> Air Force Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly
> 
>    On 26 January at 12:49 a.m. MST, the 2nd Space Operations Squadron at the
> 50th Space Wing, Schriever Air Force Base, Colo., verified users were
> experiencing GPS timing issues.  Further investigation revealed an issue in
> the Global Positioning System ground software which only affected the time
> on legacy L-band signals. This change occurred when the oldest vehicle, SVN
> 23, was removed from the constellation. While the core navigation systems
> were working normally, the coordinated universal time timing signal was off
> by 13 microseconds which exceeded the design specifications. The issue was
> resolved at 6:10 a.m. MST, however global users may have experienced GPS
> timing issues for several hours.  U.S. Strategic Command's Commercial
> Integration Cell, operating out of the Joint Space Operations Center,
> effectively served as the portal to determine the scope of commercial user
> impacts.  Additionally, the Joint Space Operations Center at Vandenberg AFB
> has not received any reports of issues with GPS-aided munitions, and has
> determined that the timing error is not attributable to any type of outside
> interference such as jamming or spoofing.  Operator procedures were modified
> to preclude a repeat of this issue until the ground system software is
> corrected, and the 50th Space Wing will conduct an Operational Review Board
> to review procedures and impacts on users. Commercial and Civil users who
> experienced impacts can contact the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center at
> (703) 313-5900.
> V/R
> Rick Hamilton
> CGSIC Executive Secretariat
> GPS Information Analysis Team Lead
> U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center
> 703-313-5930

Martin


From martin.burnicki at burnicki.net  Thu Jan 28 03:08:52 2016
From: martin.burnicki at burnicki.net (Martin Burnicki)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:08:52 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS PRN 32
In-Reply-To: <56A9556B.9030605@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <SVdCTVFSTiRbJDk5QDlQMTY0NTU3MzUzNQ@CHAZ-HP>
 <56A9556B.9030605@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <56A9CC94.4070803@burnicki.net>

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Charles,
> 
> Considering how the UTC parameters (IS-GPS-200H, Table 20-IX and section
> 20.3.3.5.2.4) got upset for some of the SVNs, the correction from GPS
> time (as corrected for that PRN) into UTC got a shift of almost 13,7 us.
> As a GPS receiver receives information, solves for position and time
> (fixed timing receivers naturally only for time), correct into GPS time
> and then into UTC you end up with having to select the information from
> one of the GPS satellites for translating the GPS time into UTC time.
> Depending on the state of that GPS receiver, it may or may not select
> this bad info, and it may change selection at any time. That's why we
> have observed receivers of the same brand and same FW fail at different
> times, but starting having problems at the same trigger time. While
> there can be receivers that have some form of protection from this
> particular problem, I guess many don't, and in this case, the specifics
> of the receiver FW and the actual state of the receiver may have cause
> the full range of heavy to no impact. I would be careful to make to much
> judgment of various receivers because of this. It is clear that it's a
> serous hit to at least most of them.

Absolute correct, IMO.

> I remember the impacts from PRN 31 and PRN 32. The re-occuring GPS WN
> wrapping issue is another. This instance is rather unique in it being
> related to the ground infrastructure seems to have provided bad upload.
> 
> There is an intense amount of work behind the scenes. Some patience will
> be needed before even a minimalistic statement can be found.

Now there's a statement available. See my other post.

Martin


From charles.curry at chronos.co.uk  Thu Jan 28 03:08:00 2016
From: charles.curry at chronos.co.uk (Charles Curry)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:08:00 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts]  GPS PRN 32
Message-ID: <SVdFNkZMTSZDJl5VQDlQMTczMDEyOTIyOA@CHAZ-HP>

This just came in

Air Force Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly

On 26 January at 12:49 a.m. MST, the 2nd Space Operations Squadron at the
50th Space Wing, Schriever Air Force Base, Colo., verified users were
experiencing GPS timing issues.  Further investigation revealed an issue in
the Global Positioning System ground software which only affected the time
on legacy L-band signals. This change occurred when the oldest vehicle, SVN
23, was removed from the constellation. While the core navigation systems
were working normally, the coordinated universal time timing signal was off
by 13 microseconds which exceeded the design specifications. The issue was
resolved at 6:10 a.m. MST, however global users may have experienced GPS
timing issues for several hours.  U.S. Strategic Command's Commercial
Integration Cell, operating out of the Joint Space Operations Center,
effectively served as the portal to determine the scope of commercial user
impacts.  Additionally, the Joint Space Operations Center at Vandenberg AFB
has not received any reports of issues with GPS-aided munitions, and has
determined that the timing error is not attributable to any type of outside
interference such as jamming or spoofing.  Operator procedures were modified
to preclude a repeat of this issue until the ground system software is
corrected, and the 50th Space Wing will conduct an Operational Review Board
to review procedures and impacts on users. Commercial and Civil users who
experienced impacts can contact the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center at
(703) 313-5900.
V/R


Charles
charles.curry at chronos.co.uk




______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service.
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From martin.burnicki at burnicki.net  Thu Jan 28 03:30:13 2016
From: martin.burnicki at burnicki.net (Martin Burnicki)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:30:13 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <1453860904.9134.33.camel@mindspring.com>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <1453860904.9134.33.camel@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <56A9D195.4060902@burnicki.net>

brian wrote:
> This may be a dumb question, but I am new to using LadyHeather with my
> Thunderbolt (previously it had been slaved to driving a clock display
> but that broke, which made me get around to installing a serial card in
> my linux box)...
> 
> Are these "events" something I should be able to see in LH?  If so what
> should I be looking for?     I see a pair of off-setting events in the
> graphs (a sharp negative spike in DAC Voltage & PPS, followed later by
> a sharp positive spike of the same magnitude),  but not sure if I am
> seeing what I want to see, of if this is actually what I am looking
> for.

It depends on what you mean by "events".

The problem should not affect normal GPS time, so navigation should not
have been affected since only the conversion from GPS time to UTC was
messed up.

If you use the PPS output which normally corresponds to the changeover
of the UTC second then the PPS slope should have stepped by 13.7 us or
not, depending on if and when the GPS receiver accepted the faulty UTC
correction data set from on of the satellites which broadcast it.

If you use the 1 PPS signal to discipline an oscillator thenit depends
on how the oscillator control loop deals with such time step, whether it
silently follows the step, or if it generates some kind of alarm due to
this unusual step.

In this case the problem was visible when you looked at the current UTC
correction parameters decoded from the satellites' nav messages.

For example, using a Meinberg GPS180PEX card with its Linux driver you
can see the following status:

martin at pc-martin:~> mbgstatus -vvv /dev/mbgclock0

mbgstatus v3.4.99 copyright Meinberg 2001-2015

GPS180PEX 029511026220 (FW 2.04, ASIC 8.06) at port 0xE000, irq 16
Normal Operation, 9 sats in view, 9 sats used
Osc type: TCXO, DAC cal: -550, fine: +666
Date/time:  Th, 2016-01-28 08:19:53.05 UTC, st: 0x14
Local HR time:  2016-01-28 08:19:53.0548183 UTC, st: 0x0014
Status info: Input signal available
Status info: Time is synchronized
Status info: Receiver position has been verified
Last sync:  Th, 2016-01-28 08:19:00.00 UTC, st: 0x14
Receiver Position:
  x: 3885686m y: 631143m z: 5001726m
  lat: +51.9824 lon: +9.2258 alt: 167m
  latitude:  N  51 deg 58 min 56.47 sec
  longitude: E   9 deg 13 min 33.05 sec
CSUM: 1615, valid: 0001
t0t: 1881|503808.0000000, A0: -9.31323e-10 A1: 3.55271e-15
WNlsf: 1851, DN: 3, offs: 17/17
UTC offset parameter: 17s, no leap second announced.

where the line starting with "t0t" prints the UTC correction data which
was faulty in this case.

While the problem occurred I ran this command periodically and grepped
the t0t line only, so at the "recovery" time you cold see this:

t0t: 1792|0.0000000, A0: -1.3696e-05 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1792|0.0000000, A0: -1.3696e-05 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1792|0.0000000, A0: -1.3696e-05 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1792|0.0000000, A0: -1.3696e-05 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1881|319488.0000000, A0: 0 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1881|319488.0000000, A0: 0 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1881|319488.0000000, A0: 0 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1881|319488.0000000, A0: 0 A1: 1.24345e-14
t0t: 1881|319488.0000000, A0: 0 A1: 1.24345e-14

Please note the week number here is the fully expanded week number:

1792 == 0x700, i.e. the 8 bit truncated value is 0, which is wrong
1881 == 0x759, i.e. the 8 bit truncated value is 0x59 == 89 correctly

Unfortunately I don't know if the thunderbold can output this kind of
data, and if LH can display it. I've not played with those, yet.

Martin


From martin.burnicki at burnicki.net  Thu Jan 28 03:37:22 2016
From: martin.burnicki at burnicki.net (Martin Burnicki)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:37:22 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A95A3A.4070900@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <56A95A3A.4070900@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <56A9D342.3000606@burnicki.net>

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> It's interesting to see how consistent these errors are.
> On the other hand, it is interesting to see how it varies even for the
> same PRN. Look at how PRN 09 varies between +0.002 us and -13.696 us.

Hm, I think basically it doesn't vary. We fortunately just saw the point
in time where it was corrected.

During the problem all affected satellites sent the same, wrong data
set, and obviously a new proper data set was uploaded to or activated on
these satellites, so the stopped sending faulty data and switched to
sending correct data *once*.

Martin


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Thu Jan 28 04:38:42 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:38:42 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?  (TBolt data)
In-Reply-To: Message from Martin Burnicki <martin.burnicki@burnicki.net>
 of "Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:30:13 +0100." <56A9D195.4060902@burnicki.net>
Message-ID: <20160128093842.6EFA1406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>

I have a hack patch in my copy of the TBolt driver for ntpd.

01-21T21:42:15 ntpd[7559]: TBolt 1 Other: -2.79397e-09 -8.88178e-15
01-22T17:21:08 ntpd[7559]: TBolt 1 Other: -4.65661e-09 -1.06581e-14
01-23T15:13:38 ntpd[7559]: TBolt 1 Other: -6.51926e-09 -1.15463e-14
01-24T17:08:37 ntpd[7559]: TBolt 1 Other: -9.31323e-10 5.32907e-15
01-25T16:16:07 ntpd[7559]: TBolt 1 Other: -1.3696e-05 1.24345e-14
01-26T18:18:38 ntpd[7559]: TBolt 1 Other: -2.79397e-09 -8.88178e-16

Times are local, PST, 8 hours west of UTC.

It's supposed to print them out any time they change.  The data comes from 
packet type 0x58, subtype 5.  I haven't checked to see when those get sent.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From michael.cook at sfr.fr  Thu Jan 28 05:21:45 2016
From: michael.cook at sfr.fr (Mike Cook)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:21:45 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] 58503A does not track
In-Reply-To: <1134533212.19787974.1453963035316.JavaMail.root@zimbra13-e2.priv.proxad.net>
References: <1134533212.19787974.1453963035316.JavaMail.root@zimbra13-e2.priv.proxad.net>
Message-ID: <19BD6D4D-6B0B-4AAF-B674-26E70C3C2842@sfr.fr>


> Le 28 janv. 2016 à 07:37, claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr a écrit :
> 
> Thanks for your reply
> 
> I don't think it's a computer problem because I can see the GPS is not locked when I compare the 10 MHz output with a Rubidium.
> By the way, I don't use software but the screen command under Linux.
> 
> Maybe the motorola bord is dead, I will investigate this : I have to send commands directly to the board, as suggested by someone offlist.
> 
> 
> The board in the GPSDO is a Motorola 84D43579M03 . The same as this one :
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Z3801A-Z3805A-GPS-Module-Motorola-Oncore-P-N-84D43579M03-/161594138402?nma=true&si=jnWr5n2KQf1WL6JylF%252BMgtIr1%252FM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
> 
> 
> Do you think it can be replaced by this one :
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Z3801A-Z3805A-GPS-Receiver-VP-oncore-B4121Z1116-/281670591394?hash=item4194e023a2
> 
> 

I think you can replace your receiver with this. Some Z3801As ( which are pretty much the Telco versions of the 58503A) came with the 84D43579M03 part , but mine has a B412P1115 . I think you should be safe with the replacement. I have a Motorola document which says that the B parts with firmware 8.1 and later have "8 channel code added" with some related commands, so I guess your part is a 6 channel model. In a command reference manual from Synergy Systems, Randy Warner states 

“house numbered” receivers with total jibberish for model numbers have worked their way into the surplus market, but under the skin they are probably pretty standard parts. “If it walks like a VP, talks like a VP, and acts like a VP, it’s probably some variation of a VP.....” 

I can’t see any indication in the command guide that 8 channel receivers will not accept the 6 channel command set however that might be an issue at set up .

My advice is suck it and see. The VP above is cheap enough . I am going to order one if I can get a shipping price to France and there are any left.


> 
> Thanks
> 
> Claude
> 
> 
> ----- Mail original -----
> De: "Artek Manuals" <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com>
> À: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Envoyé: Jeudi 28 Janvier 2016 00:27:43
> Objet: Re: [time-nuts] 58503A does not track
> 
> Claude
> 
> Are you using the same software on the same computer platform for the 
> whole time?
> 
> By example  I have a Z3801 which works sometimes under Z38xx and 
> sometimes not, while SATSTAT works all the time. I did find some flaky 
> things going on with the software and was finding that I had to close 
> Z38xx and reopen it after every command to change something?
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> On 1/26/2016 11:39 AM, claude.ff at aliceadsl.fr wrote:
>> Hello list !
>> 
>> I have a HP 58503A who  worked fine for two years.
>> After a short power cut, it does not lock on GPS. I tried some commandsn  including :SYST:PRESET but nothing works
>> 
>> Here's a :SYSTEM:STATUS ? after the PRESET and after waiting a few hours :
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------
>> 
>> SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
>> SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
>>    Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
>>    Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
>>    Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>>>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
>>                                               Predict  --
>> 
>> ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
>> Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
>>                    PRN  El  Az                UTC      16:06:43 [?] 29 Feb 2016
>>                    * 1  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
>>                    * 6  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
>>                    * 9  -- ---                Position ________________________
>>                    *14  -- ---                MODE     Survey:      0% complete
>>                    *22  -- ---                         Suspended: track <4 sats
>>                    *24  -- ---                INIT LAT N 596:30:43.423
>>                                               INIT LON E 596:31:10.845
>> ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track                      +21474708.00 m  (MSL)
>> HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
>> Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK
>> 
>> I tried to set the date with :GPS:INIT:DATE 2016,01,26 but this command has no effect.
>> 
>> Setting the LAT and LON with :GPS:POS «myposition» works.
>> 
>> ------------------------------- Receiver Status -------------------------------
>> 
>> SYNCHRONIZATION ........................................... [ Outputs Invalid ]
>> SmartClock Mode ___________________________   Reference Outputs _______________
>>    Locked                                     TFOM     9             FFOM     3
>>    Recovery                                   1PPS TI  --
>>    Holdover                                   HOLD THR 1.000 us
>>>> Power-up: GPS acquisition                  Holdover Uncertainty ____________
>>                                               Predict  --
>> 
>> ACQUISITION .............................................. [ GPS 1PPS Invalid ]
>> Tracking: 0 ____   Not Tracking: 6 ________   Time ____________________________
>>                    PRN  El  Az                UTC      02:58:13 [?] 24 Mar 2016
>>                    * 3  -- ---                GPS 1PPS Invalid: not tracking
>>                    * 4  -- ---                ANT DLY  0 ns
>>                    * 8  -- ---                Position ________________________
>>                    * 9  -- ---                MODE     Hold
>>                    *23  -- ---
>>                    *29  -- ---                LAT      N    blah blah
>>                                               LON      E    blah blah
>> ELEV MASK 10 deg   *attempting to track       HGT              +194.57 m  (MSL)
>> HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ]
>> Self Test: OK    Int Pwr: OK   Oven Pwr: OK   OCXO: OK   EFC: OK   GPS Rcv: OK
>> 
>> 
>> But the unit is still not tracking, it sees the birds because the PRN are changing but
>> does not calculate the "El" and "Az"  ...
>> 
>> Here is the output of  :DIAGnostic:LOG:READ:ALL?
>> 
>> Log 001:20160122.00:00:00:  Log cleared
>> Log 002:20160122.00:00:00:  System preset
>> Log 003:20160122.00:00:35:  Self-test failed
>> Log 004:20160122.00:12:38:  Position hold mode started
>> 
>> As you can see, the date is 2016-01-22, it's the date when the power cut happened .
>> 
>> And when I run  :GPSYSTEM:POSITION:SURVEY ONCE, I get the same first status with crazy
>> lattidude and longitude.
>> 
>> 
>> Finally a self test *TST? gives +0 and the ALARM LED and the LOCK LED are off.
>> 
>> I've tried with a second antenna and have the same problem :-(
>> 
>> Can someone give me an advice for this problem ? The receiver looks dead, no ?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance,
>> 
>> 
>> Claude
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dave
> Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

"The main function of a modern police force is filling in forms."

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Jan 28 07:09:41 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:09:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Newbie questions
In-Reply-To: <6610460997.20160127195622@metachaos.net>
References: <56A0EE75.10008@earthlink.net>
 <11210382934.20160126190410@metachaos.net>
 <20160127220429.9d8d26b4316cc86a40b3d074@kinali.ch>
 <97FFF169-B128-4439-931B-1C4B73A72302@n1k.org>
 <6610460997.20160127195622@metachaos.net>
Message-ID: <5B9D110A-C899-4AEF-B6CB-F0172004FBA6@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:56 PM, timenut at metachaos.net wrote:
> 
> Bob, et. al.,
> 
> Thanks for the advice and information. That has helped a lot in closing some
> holes and gives me a lot to consider. I am continuing to research and learn,
> this is not a short term project as in building it this week or month. I need
> to learn and work up to the full project. I will probably start small with
> pieces and gather what equipment I can. Like many of my projects, this one
> will probably have multiple sub-projects. Especially if I manage to snag test
> equipment that needs repair.
> 
> Regrettably, the 260 was ordered from China, there were none from the US when
> I ordered. I did know that it would be a crap shoot, but for $26 it was
> something I could get now. I might even be lucky!
> 
> I am planning on including sawtooth correction in hardware. But, I have a good
> bit to learn for that. It appears to be fairly simple given your processor
> reads the sawtooth correction from the GPS receiver and sets up a programmable
> delay for each cycle.

It’s far more common to sum the correction into your control loop. 

Bob

> 
> I have a dozen pieces floating in my head, I am certain I will be back for
> more advice.
> 
> Thanks again.
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Jan 28 07:07:55 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:07:55 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B & HP5345B Front-End IC Redesign Effort
In-Reply-To: <1713286076.2136176.1453945485194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <D288EA8F-29B9-4262-9771-334E6BB26965@n1k.org>
 <1713286076.2136176.1453945485194.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <60AEF430-00AD-4D7D-B723-4EF30731DFDA@n1k.org>

Hi

I suspect that a few connectors get added to that list. On the 5335 there is a *lot* more on the board. 

So, you need to source a handful of 1970’s era switches and connectors. The connectors (obviously)
need to mate with whatever is on the other side. That could be pretty easy. It could be a big issue. At
least at the shaft -> knob or “front face” level the new switches  (and pots ..) need to be very similar to what is already
in there. Again, that may be pretty easy. It also could turn into a really big deal. 

Bob

> On Jan 27, 2016, at 8:44 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> The boards also contain the input attenuator, input clamp diodes, high impedance buffer and various threshold, hysteresis and risetime setting controls as well as the polarity select controls. Apart from a dual opamp that sums some control signals and LC low pass filters on the supply line and a couple of input coupling capacitors there is little else.
> NB the interconnection inductance in series with the emitters of a long tailed pair ultimately limits its bandwidth. Adding a small series resistor will extend the bandwidth at the expense of the gain. The gain can be made up with additional stages.When using individually packaged transistors (or chips in a hybrid) this is about the only option  apart from using monolithic differential pairs with a low inductance emitter emitter connection.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
>    On Thursday, 28 January 2016 1:04 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Ok, what else is on the same board as the front end? 
> 
> Is this a “chop a big hole in the board” project or is it a more elegant, replace the whole board approach. If you are just going to chop 
> a hole in the board, what else buried in there. 
> 
> There is way more to this than just an input circuit. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>> 
>> Something like the attached schematic should suffice however an extra gain stage would probably be necessary to achieve the 100mV sensitivity.NB Vcc = 15V, Vee = -15V.
>> Bruce
>> 
>> 
>>     On Thursday, 28 January 2016 5:02 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Some great comments and like all of you I like my 5370s and 5345s. Real
>> buttons no mouse. Must be a throw back to the dark ages.
>> Always knew about the fan issue on the 5370 and have added fans to my main
>> operating unit.
>> But it had not occurred to me that the way the front panel is laid out
>> there may be little actual airflow across those chips. Thats quite a
>> thought.
>> So for those with working units that may be a completely seperate thread.
>> How hot do they get? Then some solution for that.
>> Essentially fix it before it dies.
>> Then there is the question I posed.
>> Skipping all of the details like adjustable slicing polarity and such. What
>> is the minimum to get a signal into the counter as a way to return it to
>> some usable service and certainly verify the bad frontend. Lets call this a
>> poor but useful answer.
>> From that point it returns to this discussion.
>> But a full new front panel. As Perry says most likely not.
>> I do have 2 X5345s that I am pretty sure I need to dive into the front end
>> on. My excuse other projects...
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 7:46 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Ok, well let’s put some dimensions on it.
>>> 
>>> Say that the new board for the counter costs $400 each. (and that’s
>>> probably low). How many are people likely to buy?
>>> 
>>> If so how much would you pay for a working 5370?
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 26, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Wrote: Since the front end chips are mixed signal ASIC’s, it will take
>>> more than a bit of time to replace them directly. Re-doing the entire front
>>> panel board is the most likely way to “fix”the problem. The question is -
>>> why do that at all? Just do a PC instrument that does the same thing as the
>>> counter with way less effort…..
>>>> Well, I have two reasons not to.
>>>> First I have about $1800 invested in my 3 5370’s including  the new CPU
>>> boards and blowing that off is not in my budget. I’ll kludge the living
>>> daylights out of my units before blowing off my investment.
>>>> Second, I haven’t the slightest clue on how to do a PC instrument and I
>>> have to many other projects to finish to learn something new.
>>>> Also there was much discussion about A and B cooling in the past and it
>>> seems the only things some did to their units was the addition of fan(s) on
>>> the cooling fins.  I had an external fan on a B I was running and the thing
>>> still was too hot.
>>>> IMNSHO, I believe the front end chip failure is aggravated by the high
>>> interior heat level.  I’m committed to a number of other projects so it
>>> will be a while before I can work on mine.
>>>> I’ll either rip the whole PS out and put it on another chassis, try
>>> better 3 terminal regulators instead of the installed pass transistors,
>>> install switching regulator PS’s in place of the original PS, cut holes in
>>> the top lid and install 10 or 12 computer fans. Or a combination of the
>>> afore mentioned.
>>>> I don’t give a rat’s behind how it will look. I’m only interested in it
>>> working properly.  I’ve spent 50 years in the electronics industry and I
>>> will find a way to skin this cat. I’ve done this to other equipment before.
>>> And when done I’ll tell the list how I did it.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Perrier
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
>> <5370FrontEnd.PNG>_______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 28 07:22:36 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 04:22:36 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
 System Anomaly
In-Reply-To: <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
 <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>

On 1/27/16 11:46 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Fellow time-nuts,
>
> Here is the official statement.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus


I know we're all time-nuts here and not position-nuts.  The thing in the 
statement that was intriguing was about GPS guided munitions.

13.7 microseconds is about 4.5 km.

I've not been following this discussion too closely, but were the nav 
solutions from the GPS steady and continuous during the event (that is, 
was just a time discontinuity).  I'm guessing that since the problem was 
only in the "how to convert from GPS to UTC" parameters that the nav 
solution was steady.

And this brings up an interesting question. On receivers that provide a 
1pps, do they bring out the 1pps on GPS time or on UTC time.  I suspect 
some are GPS and some are UTC.

And, did this "ripple in the force" cause all those NTP synchronized 
clocks to hiccup (if a NTP ticker is UTC driven vs GPS driven)


>
> -------- Forwarded Message --------
> Subject: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:13:13 +0000
> From: Civil Global Positioning System Service Interface Committee
> (CGSIC) <cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil>
> Reply-To: cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil
> To: cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil <cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil>
>
> All CGSIC:
>
> Air Force Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly
>
>     On 26 January at 12:49 a.m. MST, the 2nd Space Operations Squadron
> at the
> 50th Space Wing, Schriever Air Force Base, Colo., verified users were
> experiencing GPS timing issues.  Further investigation revealed an issue in
> the Global Positioning System ground software which only affected the time
> on legacy L-band signals. This change occurred when the oldest vehicle, SVN
> 23, was removed from the constellation. While the core navigation systems
> were working normally, the coordinated universal time timing signal was off
> by 13 microseconds which exceeded the design specifications. The issue was
> resolved at 6:10 a.m. MST, however global users may have experienced GPS
> timing issues for several hours.  U.S. Strategic Command's Commercial
> Integration Cell, operating out of the Joint Space Operations Center,
> effectively served as the portal to determine the scope of commercial user
> impacts.  Additionally, the Joint Space Operations Center at Vandenberg AFB
> has not received any reports of issues with GPS-aided munitions, and has
> determined that the timing error is not attributable to any type of outside
> interference such as jamming or spoofing.  Operator procedures were
> modified
> to preclude a repeat of this issue until the ground system software is
> corrected, and the 50th Space Wing will conduct an Operational Review Board
> to review procedures and impacts on users. Commercial and Civil users who
> experienced impacts can contact the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center at
> (703) 313-5900.
> V/R
> Rick Hamilton
> CGSIC Executive Secretariat
> GPS Information Analysis Team Lead
> U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center
> 703-313-5930
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Thu Jan 28 10:58:59 2016
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 07:58:59 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
	System Anomaly
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
 <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CB84E21763E44DA58A7BA4AAE867667A@pc52>

> I've not been following this discussion too closely, but were the nav 
> solutions from the GPS steady and continuous during the event (that is, 
> was just a time discontinuity).  I'm guessing that since the problem was 
> only in the "how to convert from GPS to UTC" parameters that the nav 
> solution was steady.

Jim,

Nav solutions were fine. Time solutions were fine. It was just a UTC offset problem (and then only for some receivers).

> And this brings up an interesting question. On receivers that provide a 
> 1pps, do they bring out the 1pps on GPS time or on UTC time.  I suspect 
> some are GPS and some are UTC.

Almost all timing receivers allow you to choose between GPS time and UTC. It's in the manual. The TBolt and Z38xx-series and 58503-series make it really easy to switch from one to the other.

/tvb

From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Thu Jan 28 11:49:02 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 11:49:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 Newbie Question
Message-ID: <56AA467E.5000502@ArtekManuals.com>

OK

My Z3801A came out of mothballs after 15 years in controlled storage and 
appears to be behaving. now I am curious as to what I am seeing

First I am not truly a "time" nut ( I am semi retired and have not worn 
a watch since October 12th 2008 :-) ). I am probably more of "frequency" 
nut . I use the Z3801A as my 10MHz reference. Having a reference source 
that is good to .1Hz at 10MHz is more than adequate as a reference for 
my counters, signal generators and and spectrum analyzers. But like all 
engineers if you give me the numbers I an drawn to trying to figure out 
what they are telling me.

My Z3801A has been on for about 2 weeks now and typically reports 1PPS 
+/- 20ns readings 20 hours/day. Then all of a sudden once or twice a day 
it will go nuts and the variation increases to +/- 80ns for an hour or 
two before settling back down. Watching the 10mhz on a 10 digit counter 
shows no short term change in the frequency of the OCXO when the thing 
goes nuts there are slight changes in EFC but nothing dramatic vs any 
other hour to hour variation. The Allen and modified Allen deviation is 
around 2e-13 as it approaches 1e5 samples

Here is the setup
1) Z3801A
2) Symmetricom 58532A antenna, just above the roof, with 8 feet of RG213 
to the Z3801A
3) Running on a lab grade power supply at 48.5 volts (voltage variation 
over time is less .05 volts)
4) Lab runs at 73deg F +/- 2 degrees , humidity is NOT closely controlled
5) Running Z38xx software
6) Elevation cutoff on satellites is set for 15 degrees

And here is the question is the sudden jump in the pps deviation due to 
ionospheric and the satellite constellation change? IS there anything I 
can do to minimize it (or is it even necessary to worry/ wonder about)  
This behavior has going on since the beginning so it is not likely 
related to events earlier in the week. But that set me to wondering 
could I minimize it by say raising the elevation mask? Are there 
satellites in the constellation that are notorious for noise etc  that 
could be excluded from the tracking list ...etc etc

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals.com

A man with a watch always knows what time it is
A man with two watches is never quite sure

-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From tvb at leapsecond.com  Thu Jan 28 12:25:04 2016
From: tvb at leapsecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 09:25:04 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 Newbie Question
In-Reply-To: <56AA467E.5000502@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <56AA467E.5000502@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <B3A026CB-8735-429F-BE4F-861B62A2224F@leapsecond.com>

Dave,

Plot the #SV tracked and signal strength(s) over a couple of days. See if your once or twice a day glitches correlate to periods of low reception.

To see what the reception of other z3801a owners look like:

http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_websites_list.htm

You may even want to try a lower mask instead of a higher mask. It's a trade-off between fewer SV with solid reception and more SV with possibly spotty reception. 

Easy experiment: try 0 degrees for two days, then 15 degrees, then 30 degrees.

What I do is issue a syst:stat? command every 30 seconds. It's easy then to go back to the log files and check things like constellation changes and elevation, or brief or prolonged periods of holdover, etc.

/tvb

> On Jan 28, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Artek Manuals <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com> wrote:
> 
> OK
> 
> My Z3801A came out of mothballs after 15 years in controlled storage and appears to be behaving. now I am curious as to what I am seeing
> 
> First I am not truly a "time" nut ( I am semi retired and have not worn a watch since October 12th 2008 :-) ). I am probably more of "frequency" nut . I use the Z3801A as my 10MHz reference. Having a reference source that is good to .1Hz at 10MHz is more than adequate as a reference for my counters, signal generators and and spectrum analyzers. But like all engineers if you give me the numbers I an drawn to trying to figure out what they are telling me.
> 
> My Z3801A has been on for about 2 weeks now and typically reports 1PPS +/- 20ns readings 20 hours/day. Then all of a sudden once or twice a day it will go nuts and the variation increases to +/- 80ns for an hour or two before settling back down. Watching the 10mhz on a 10 digit counter shows no short term change in the frequency of the OCXO when the thing goes nuts there are slight changes in EFC but nothing dramatic vs any other hour to hour variation. The Allen and modified Allen deviation is around 2e-13 as it approaches 1e5 samples
> 
> Here is the setup
> 1) Z3801A
> 2) Symmetricom 58532A antenna, just above the roof, with 8 feet of RG213 to the Z3801A
> 3) Running on a lab grade power supply at 48.5 volts (voltage variation over time is less .05 volts)
> 4) Lab runs at 73deg F +/- 2 degrees , humidity is NOT closely controlled
> 5) Running Z38xx software
> 6) Elevation cutoff on satellites is set for 15 degrees
> 
> And here is the question is the sudden jump in the pps deviation due to ionospheric and the satellite constellation change? IS there anything I can do to minimize it (or is it even necessary to worry/ wonder about)  This behavior has going on since the beginning so it is not likely related to events earlier in the week. But that set me to wondering could I minimize it by say raising the elevation mask? Are there satellites in the constellation that are notorious for noise etc  that could be excluded from the tracking list ...etc etc
> 
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuals.com
> 
> A man with a watch always knows what time it is
> A man with two watches is never quite sure
> 
> -- 
> Dave
> Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> www.ArtekManuals.com
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Jan 28 14:13:22 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:13:22 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
 System Anomaly
In-Reply-To: <CB84E21763E44DA58A7BA4AAE867667A@pc52>
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
 <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>
 <CB84E21763E44DA58A7BA4AAE867667A@pc52>
Message-ID: <56AA6852.9090805@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Tom,

On 01/28/2016 04:58 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
>> I've not been following this discussion too closely, but were the nav
>> solutions from the GPS steady and continuous during the event (that is,
>> was just a time discontinuity).  I'm guessing that since the problem was
>> only in the "how to convert from GPS to UTC" parameters that the nav
>> solution was steady.
>
> Jim,
>
> Nav solutions were fine. Time solutions were fine. It was just a UTC offset problem (and then only for some receivers).

Quite a lot of receivers it turns out.

The way it works, many receivers could go lucky through the events.

>> And this brings up an interesting question. On receivers that provide a
>> 1pps, do they bring out the 1pps on GPS time or on UTC time.  I suspect
>> some are GPS and some are UTC.
>
> Almost all timing receivers allow you to choose between GPS time and UTC. It's in the manual. The TBolt and Z38xx-series and 58503-series make it really easy to switch from one to the other.

I find that most use in telecom and broadcast is to set them for UTC.

Cheers,
Magnus

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Jan 28 14:23:14 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:23:14 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
 System Anomaly
In-Reply-To: <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
 <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56AA6AA2.6050901@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Jim,

On 01/28/2016 01:22 PM, jimlux wrote:
> On 1/27/16 11:46 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> Fellow time-nuts,
>>
>> Here is the official statement.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>
>
> I know we're all time-nuts here and not position-nuts.  The thing in the
> statement that was intriguing was about GPS guided munitions.
>
> 13.7 microseconds is about 4.5 km.
>
> I've not been following this discussion too closely, but were the nav
> solutions from the GPS steady and continuous during the event (that is,
> was just a time discontinuity).  I'm guessing that since the problem was
> only in the "how to convert from GPS to UTC" parameters that the nav
> solution was steady.

That is exactly what Meinbergs research as presented by Martin shows.
In particular, it's the A0 coefficient of the GPS to UTC conversion 
message which is out of tune.

> And this brings up an interesting question. On receivers that provide a
> 1pps, do they bring out the 1pps on GPS time or on UTC time.  I suspect
> some are GPS and some are UTC.

You can configure, most of them would default to UTC and in my 
experience, many systems wants UTC.

> And, did this "ripple in the force" cause all those NTP synchronized
> clocks to hiccup (if a NTP ticker is UTC driven vs GPS driven)

NTP bumping around 13,7 us... I'm not sure I *really* care for most usage.

Oh... not to speak about telecom and broadcast networks. When national 
TV broadcast networks suffers greatly, we start to care about these 
things. *GREATLY*

Cheers,
Magnus

>
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly
>> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:13:13 +0000
>> From: Civil Global Positioning System Service Interface Committee
>> (CGSIC) <cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil>
>> Reply-To: cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil
>> To: cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil <cgsic at cgls.uscg.mil>
>>
>> All CGSIC:
>>
>> Air Force Official Press Release - GPS Ground System Anomaly
>>
>>     On 26 January at 12:49 a.m. MST, the 2nd Space Operations Squadron
>> at the
>> 50th Space Wing, Schriever Air Force Base, Colo., verified users were
>> experiencing GPS timing issues.  Further investigation revealed an
>> issue in
>> the Global Positioning System ground software which only affected the
>> time
>> on legacy L-band signals. This change occurred when the oldest
>> vehicle, SVN
>> 23, was removed from the constellation. While the core navigation systems
>> were working normally, the coordinated universal time timing signal
>> was off
>> by 13 microseconds which exceeded the design specifications. The issue
>> was
>> resolved at 6:10 a.m. MST, however global users may have experienced GPS
>> timing issues for several hours.  U.S. Strategic Command's Commercial
>> Integration Cell, operating out of the Joint Space Operations Center,
>> effectively served as the portal to determine the scope of commercial
>> user
>> impacts.  Additionally, the Joint Space Operations Center at
>> Vandenberg AFB
>> has not received any reports of issues with GPS-aided munitions, and has
>> determined that the timing error is not attributable to any type of
>> outside
>> interference such as jamming or spoofing.  Operator procedures were
>> modified
>> to preclude a repeat of this issue until the ground system software is
>> corrected, and the 50th Space Wing will conduct an Operational Review
>> Board
>> to review procedures and impacts on users. Commercial and Civil users who
>> experienced impacts can contact the U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center at
>> (703) 313-5900.
>> V/R
>> Rick Hamilton
>> CGSIC Executive Secretariat
>> GPS Information Analysis Team Lead
>> U.S. Coast Guard Navigation Center
>> 703-313-5930
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Thu Jan 28 17:27:00 2016
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 22:27:00 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
	System Anomaly
In-Reply-To: <56AA6AA2.6050901@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
 <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>
 <56AA6AA2.6050901@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4845.1454020020@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <56AA6AA2.6050901 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:

>> And, did this "ripple in the force" cause all those NTP synchronized
>> clocks to hiccup (if a NTP ticker is UTC driven vs GPS driven)
>
>NTP bumping around 13,7 us... I'm not sure I *really* care for most usage.

I don't think most NTPD based servers would even notice the pattern I
saw on my receivers.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Jan 28 17:37:33 2016
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 23:37:33 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
 System Anomaly
In-Reply-To: <4845.1454020020@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
 <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>
 <56AA6AA2.6050901@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4845.1454020020@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <56AA982D.8070903@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Poul-Henning,

On 01/28/2016 11:27 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <56AA6AA2.6050901 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>
>>> And, did this "ripple in the force" cause all those NTP synchronized
>>> clocks to hiccup (if a NTP ticker is UTC driven vs GPS driven)
>>
>> NTP bumping around 13,7 us... I'm not sure I *really* care for most usage.
>
> I don't think most NTPD based servers would even notice the pattern I
> saw on my receivers.
>

Indeed. Even if they saw it, as soon as you got past the first router 
that bump is nothing anyways.

I just *might* have been using a bit of an understatement.

Cheers,
Magnus

From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 19:48:21 2016
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:48:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Fwd: CGSIC: FW: Official Press Release - GPS Ground
	System Anomaly
In-Reply-To: <56AA982D.8070903@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <mailman.844.1453943611.5225.cgsic@cgls.uscg.mil>
 <56A9C74E.6000009@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56AA080C.9060105@earthlink.net>
 <56AA6AA2.6050901@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4845.1454020020@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <56AA982D.8070903@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <9D954FF5-780C-4CE5-A8BC-953B98B56DB7@gmail.com>

What was interesting was in addition to the bump was that the Garmin nav receiver in the car was unable to get a fix until it did a full cold start

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

> On Jan 28, 2016, at 5:37 PM, Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> 
> Poul-Henning,
> 
>> On 01/28/2016 11:27 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> --------
>> In message <56AA6AA2.6050901 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>> 
>>>> And, did this "ripple in the force" cause all those NTP synchronized
>>>> clocks to hiccup (if a NTP ticker is UTC driven vs GPS driven)
>>> 
>>> NTP bumping around 13,7 us... I'm not sure I *really* care for most usage.
>> 
>> I don't think most NTPD based servers would even notice the pattern I
>> saw on my receivers.
> 
> Indeed. Even if they saw it, as soon as you got past the first router that bump is nothing anyways.
> 
> I just *might* have been using a bit of an understatement.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From n2md at aol.com  Thu Jan 28 20:53:23 2016
From: n2md at aol.com (Mark Barettella)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:53:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] JLT M12M upgrade?
Message-ID: <5A80ABCCF614417383DBB26FC86149CA@Hippocrates>

I am considering the M12M upgrade board for my JLT Fury.  
Could someone who has done this upgrade mind posting some comments or a brief review.

Thanks,
Mark 
N2MD

From ke9h.graham at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 18:23:22 2016
From: ke9h.graham at gmail.com (Graham / KE9H)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:23:22 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 Newbie Question
In-Reply-To: <B3A026CB-8735-429F-BE4F-861B62A2224F@leapsecond.com>
References: <56AA467E.5000502@ArtekManuals.com>
 <B3A026CB-8735-429F-BE4F-861B62A2224F@leapsecond.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyJ-YX58M=m594HEu7Be5u13R_Ls0FVTe2htt+czg4jcOh_nQ@mail.gmail.com>

Please describe your Antenna setup and location.
How much of the sky can it see, in which directions.
Which directions are blocked for direct line of sight, and must depend on
reflections from nearby buildings or objects?

--- Graham

==

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at leapsecond.com> wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Plot the #SV tracked and signal strength(s) over a couple of days. See if
> your once or twice a day glitches correlate to periods of low reception.
>
> To see what the reception of other z3801a owners look like:
>
> http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_websites_list.htm
>
> You may even want to try a lower mask instead of a higher mask. It's a
> trade-off between fewer SV with solid reception and more SV with possibly
> spotty reception.
>
> Easy experiment: try 0 degrees for two days, then 15 degrees, then 30
> degrees.
>
> What I do is issue a syst:stat? command every 30 seconds. It's easy then
> to go back to the log files and check things like constellation changes and
> elevation, or brief or prolonged periods of holdover, etc.
>
> /tvb
>
> > On Jan 28, 2016, at 8:49 AM, Artek Manuals <Manuals at ArtekManuals.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > OK
> >
> > My Z3801A came out of mothballs after 15 years in controlled storage and
> appears to be behaving. now I am curious as to what I am seeing
> >
> > First I am not truly a "time" nut ( I am semi retired and have not worn
> a watch since October 12th 2008 :-) ). I am probably more of "frequency"
> nut . I use the Z3801A as my 10MHz reference. Having a reference source
> that is good to .1Hz at 10MHz is more than adequate as a reference for my
> counters, signal generators and and spectrum analyzers. But like all
> engineers if you give me the numbers I an drawn to trying to figure out
> what they are telling me.
> >
> > My Z3801A has been on for about 2 weeks now and typically reports 1PPS
> +/- 20ns readings 20 hours/day. Then all of a sudden once or twice a day it
> will go nuts and the variation increases to +/- 80ns for an hour or two
> before settling back down. Watching the 10mhz on a 10 digit counter shows
> no short term change in the frequency of the OCXO when the thing goes nuts
> there are slight changes in EFC but nothing dramatic vs any other hour to
> hour variation. The Allen and modified Allen deviation is around 2e-13 as
> it approaches 1e5 samples
> >
> > Here is the setup
> > 1) Z3801A
> > 2) Symmetricom 58532A antenna, just above the roof, with 8 feet of RG213
> to the Z3801A
> > 3) Running on a lab grade power supply at 48.5 volts (voltage variation
> over time is less .05 volts)
> > 4) Lab runs at 73deg F +/- 2 degrees , humidity is NOT closely controlled
> > 5) Running Z38xx software
> > 6) Elevation cutoff on satellites is set for 15 degrees
> >
> > And here is the question is the sudden jump in the pps deviation due to
> ionospheric and the satellite constellation change? IS there anything I can
> do to minimize it (or is it even necessary to worry/ wonder about)  This
> behavior has going on since the beginning so it is not likely related to
> events earlier in the week. But that set me to wondering could I minimize
> it by say raising the elevation mask? Are there satellites in the
> constellation that are notorious for noise etc  that could be excluded from
> the tracking list ...etc etc
> >
> > Dave
> > NR1DX
> > ArtekManuals.com
> >
> > A man with a watch always knows what time it is
> > A man with two watches is never quite sure
> >
> > --
> > Dave
> > Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
> > www.ArtekManuals.com
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 28 22:09:33 2016
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 21:09:33 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
Message-ID: <CAGRb8t+RTSN7cHeenYbftRA5Eybfa5VbNQCKNo_aWe1UWDc7XQ@mail.gmail.com>

Tonight I got a GPS Lock light. Bravo!

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Thu Jan 28 23:58:25 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 23:58:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+RTSN7cHeenYbftRA5Eybfa5VbNQCKNo_aWe1UWDc7XQ@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+RTSN7cHeenYbftRA5Eybfa5VbNQCKNo_aWe1UWDc7XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160129075828.wRMSptGT@smtp3h.mail.yandex.net>

John wrote:

>Tonight I got a GPS Lock light. Bravo!

Patience is a virtue.   ;-)

Remember this when it comes to all the other metrics -- settling to 
good stability, in particular, which may take quite a while (weeks to 
months) since the OCXO has been off for so long.  My suggestion is to 
put it in an out-of-the-way place where the temperature is stable and 
there is little to no risk of it being physically jostled, and forget 
about it for a month.  Then see where you are.  (I mean, really 
forget it -- don't monitor it, don't look at the lights -- because 
those will tempt you to play with it, which will make it take even 
longer to settle.)

Charles



From netmonk at netmonk.org  Fri Jan 29 02:32:35 2016
From: netmonk at netmonk.org (NeT MonK)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:32:35 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
Message-ID: <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>

Le 27 janv. 2016 18:04, "Martin Burnicki" <martin.burnicki at burnicki.net> a
écrit :
>
> Magnus Danielson wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 01/26/2016 11:46 PM, Martin Burnicki wrote:
> >> Paul Boven wrote:
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Has anyone else seen GPS time jump by -13.7 usec today?

Good morning,

I have subscribed to this list following this incident as far as it was the
first of the few results of search in Google for three days ago.

On my linux platform of hundreds serveurs,  I had incident because of this,
on servers which only  use of ptp.
I have two sources grand master clock one I control (a meinberg appliance)
and act as passive and the second is just a Cisco relaying the ptp stream
from the market.

As a side effect of those glitch in the GPS matrix, the utc_valid_flag was
not anymore set in the stream of the primary master clock, just before my
secondary starts to become active (loss of primary stream) which leads to
linux server  ptp slave to readjust of +36 seconds and jump backward -36
seconds as far as the flags was coming back.

Am I the only one who suffered the loss of the utc_valid_flag in ptp stream
? And what appliance would behave like this ? As far I can tell my
secondary meinberg appliance aside a few oscillator recalibration message
in the console log behaved very nicely.

But I have no view of the primary master source and kind of hardware they
use.

Thank you in advance for your answer.

--
Netmonk

From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Fri Jan 29 04:54:20 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 04:54:20 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 Newbie Question
In-Reply-To: <CAPyJ-YX58M=m594HEu7Be5u13R_Ls0FVTe2htt+czg4jcOh_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56AA467E.5000502@ArtekManuals.com>
 <B3A026CB-8735-429F-BE4F-861B62A2224F@leapsecond.com>
 <CAPyJ-YX58M=m594HEu7Be5u13R_Ls0FVTe2htt+czg4jcOh_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56AB36CC.8000701@ArtekManuals.com>

Graham
Symmetricom 58532A antenna, just above the roof, with 8 feet of RG213.

Flat ( Florida) rural location with 360 degree view other than some trees. The GPS Antenna plot from Z38xx has filled in pretty much 360 degrees down to 20 degrees solid and in most directions to down to 15 degrees elevation. The exception of course is the polar abyss to the north. I am going to lower the elevation angle for a while just to see if there is any difference

Looking at the link sent to me earlier    http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_websites_list.htm . I am seeing the same phenomena on most all oft the plots for the Z3801 around the world, So I assume that my unit is :behaving normally" for a Z3801A ... Just cant explain why all of us see a sporadic jumps in PPS error for an hour or two once or twice a day

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals.com

A man with a watch always knows what time it is
A man with two watches is never quite sure

. On 1/28/2016 6:23 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:

> Please describe your Antenna setup and location.
> How much of the sky can it see, in which directions.
> Which directions are blocked for direct line of sight, and must depend on
> reflections from nearby buildings or objects?
>
> --- Graham
>
>
> And here is the question is the sudden jump in the pps deviation due to ionospheric and the satellite constellation change? IS there anything I can do to minimize it (or is it even necessary to worry/ wonder about)  This behavior has going on since the beginning so it is not likely related to events earlier in the week. But that set me to wondering could I minimize it by say raising the elevation mask? Are there satellites in the constellation that are notorious for noise etc  that could be excluded from the tracking list ...etc etc
>>> Dave
>>> NR1DX
>>> ArtekManuals.com
>>>
>>> A man with a watch always knows what time it is
>>> A man with two watches is never quite sure
>>>


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From vilgotch at bigpond.net.au  Fri Jan 29 06:17:47 2016
From: vilgotch at bigpond.net.au (Morris Odell)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 22:17:47 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A troubleshooting
Message-ID: <000301d15a86$af3db770$0db92650$@bigpond.net.au>

Hi all,

I have been on a steep learning curve on my new 5372A. It's a lovely
instrument but does seem to have a higher degree of trigger jitter than I
would expect. Going on previous experience with other unrelated instruments
I began by checking the power supplies. (in fact it's hard to go much deeper
without the unobtainium extenders :-(

Anyway the power supplies all check out OK voltage wise but the -15 does
have a higher amount of twice mains freq ripple than the others. It's about
0.5 V p-p at the test point on the triple regulator board and looks like a
sawtooth i.e. what you see from inadequate filtering. The service manual is
unhelpful as it doesn't give schematics, just says to replace the regulator
board! The -15 features on the schematics for many other parts of the 5372A
that would be expected to contribute to trigger stability. 

My questions are:

1. Could anyone on the list with a functioning 5372A slip a scope probe onto
the -15V test point and check the ripple on a known good unit?

and

2. Has anyone had to deal with this this problem before?

Thanks,

Morris



From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 08:43:50 2016
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 07:43:50 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <20160129075828.wRMSptGT@smtp3h.mail.yandex.net>
References: <CAGRb8t+RTSN7cHeenYbftRA5Eybfa5VbNQCKNo_aWe1UWDc7XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160129075828.wRMSptGT@smtp3h.mail.yandex.net>
Message-ID: <CAGRb8t+im+pGHXxQhFkhnUJW3iiHzLuUEuG94PUs+00wHBFVSA@mail.gmail.com>

Charles,
The place isn't out of the way. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it got
a power interruption sometime.  In addition, the temperature isn't stable
either. It will be at least a couple of weeks before I am ready to attempt
to use it for anything, and then it won't matter so much about absolute
accuracy. The thing that had me going about this was that even from the
very first time I ever fired it up, it always found satellites very
quickly. Next will be to get some kind of monitoring program running. I
will have to interrupt the GPS signal soon to insert the splitter so I can
hook up another receiver at the same time.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
wrote:

> John wrote:
>
> Tonight I got a GPS Lock light. Bravo!
>>
>
> Patience is a virtue.   ;-)
>
> Remember this when it comes to all the other metrics -- settling to good
> stability, in particular, which may take quite a while (weeks to months)
> since the OCXO has been off for so long.  My suggestion is to put it in an
> out-of-the-way place where the temperature is stable and there is little to
> no risk of it being physically jostled, and forget about it for a month.
> Then see where you are.  (I mean, really forget it -- don't monitor it,
> don't look at the lights -- because those will tempt you to play with it,
> which will make it take even longer to settle.)
>
> Charles
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Jan 28 23:19:51 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 20:19:51 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for info on a Leica MX 9400R
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_VE_yDdj+EzPLc+s6RN7qiiqLekYK1T4+pTRc=MzepXQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5273

Unit was rebranded as a CMT GPS-L4 (local outfit long closed up)

An old web page

http://www.cmtinc.com/fieldcmp/gpsbase.html


-pete

From martin.burnicki at burnicki.net  Fri Jan 29 08:45:55 2016
From: martin.burnicki at burnicki.net (Martin Burnicki)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:45:55 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56AB6D13.1000804@burnicki.net>

Hello Net Monk,

NeT MonK wrote:
> I have subscribed to this list following this incident as far as it was the
> first of the few results of search in Google for three days ago.
> 
> On my linux platform of hundreds serveurs,  I had incident because of this,
> on servers which only  use of ptp.
> I have two sources grand master clock one I control (a meinberg appliance)
> and act as passive and the second is just a Cisco relaying the ptp stream
> from the market.
> 
> As a side effect of those glitch in the GPS matrix, the utc_valid_flag was
> not anymore set in the stream of the primary master clock, just before my
> secondary starts to become active (loss of primary stream) which leads to
> linux server  ptp slave to readjust of +36 seconds and jump backward -36
> seconds as far as the flags was coming back.
> 
> Am I the only one who suffered the loss of the utc_valid_flag in ptp stream
> ? And what appliance would behave like this ? As far I can tell my
> secondary meinberg appliance aside a few oscillator recalibration message
> in the console log behaved very nicely.
> 
> But I have no view of the primary master source and kind of hardware they
> use.

The time stamps sent in the PTP messages on the network are usually TAI,
not UTC. The PTP announce message contains a UTC offset field telling
the current time difference, and a flag indicating if the UTC parameter
is valid.

Currently the difference between TAI and UTC is 36 seconds, so if the
grandmaster sends no valid UTC offset, or utc_valid flag is not set,
then a client probably just evaluates the raw TAI time, and thus its
time steps by 36 seconds until it receives a PTP announcement message
with valid UTC parameters again.

I don't know the details of your PTP setup, but we (at Meinberg) have
already had another customer some time ago where a Cisco switch acting
as boundary clock didn't send UTC data reliably when the grandmaster was
switched.

So eventually you should contact Cisco and see if there is an update
available for the switch where this is fixed.

Martin


From chris at chriscaudle.org  Fri Jan 29 09:29:51 2016
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:29:51 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09f75842a2d3976f9d562c41e625c5d0.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

On Fri, January 29, 2016 1:32 am, NeT MonK wrote:
> As a side effect of those glitch in the GPS matrix, the utc_valid_flag was
> not anymore set in the stream of the primary master clock, just before my
> secondary starts to become active (loss of primary stream) which leads to
> linux server  ptp slave to readjust of +36 seconds and jump backward -36
> seconds as far as the flags was coming back.

The difference between UTC and TAI is 36 seconds.

Are you running ptpd or linuxptp on your Linux servers?
It sounds like the ptp agent running on your servers interpreted the lack
of UTC valid flag to mean that the timestamps were now in TAI, so the
server kernel applied the TAI to UTC offset to the time received via PTP.

-- 
Chris Caudle




From ke9h.graham at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 11:15:34 2016
From: ke9h.graham at gmail.com (Graham / KE9H)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:15:34 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 Newbie Question
In-Reply-To: <56AB36CC.8000701@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <56AA467E.5000502@ArtekManuals.com>
 <B3A026CB-8735-429F-BE4F-861B62A2224F@leapsecond.com>
 <CAPyJ-YX58M=m594HEu7Be5u13R_Ls0FVTe2htt+czg4jcOh_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AB36CC.8000701@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyJ-YXS614JqqaHSkjSuOoutoJjKRMS75c9GNGzFr29VAX_1A@mail.gmail.com>

Dave:

Your antenna setup sounds reasonable.
You might want to try dropping your elevation mask down to 5 or 10 degrees,
as an experiment.

Things that cause the sporadic jumps could be certain satellites being
added to, or removed from the solution.
Also, if there are particular angles/directions where you receive the
satellite signal as a reflection, rather than a direct signal, you get
position errors that move into and out of your solution.  If the satellite
is behind one of your trees, and the received signal bouncing off the other
tree is temporarily stronger, you have a temporary path length/position
change.

--- Graham

==

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:54 AM, Artek Manuals <Manuals at artekmanuals.com>
wrote:

> Graham
> Symmetricom 58532A antenna, just above the roof, with 8 feet of RG213.
>
> Flat ( Florida) rural location with 360 degree view other than some trees.
> The GPS Antenna plot from Z38xx has filled in pretty much 360 degrees down
> to 20 degrees solid and in most directions to down to 15 degrees elevation.
> The exception of course is the polar abyss to the north. I am going to
> lower the elevation angle for a while just to see if there is any difference
>
> Looking at the link sent to me earlier
> http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_websites_list.htm . I am seeing the same
> phenomena on most all oft the plots for the Z3801 around the world, So I
> assume that my unit is :behaving normally" for a Z3801A ... Just cant
> explain why all of us see a sporadic jumps in PPS error for an hour or two
> once or twice a day
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuals.com
>
> A man with a watch always knows what time it is
> A man with two watches is never quite sure
>
> . On 1/28/2016 6:23 PM, Graham / KE9H wrote:
>
> Please describe your Antenna setup and location.
>> How much of the sky can it see, in which directions.
>> Which directions are blocked for direct line of sight, and must depend on
>> reflections from nearby buildings or objects?
>>
>> --- Graham
>>
>>
>> And here is the question is the sudden jump in the pps deviation due to
>> ionospheric and the satellite constellation change? IS there anything I can
>> do to minimize it (or is it even necessary to worry/ wonder about)  This
>> behavior has going on since the beginning so it is not likely related to
>> events earlier in the week. But that set me to wondering could I minimize
>> it by say raising the elevation mask? Are there satellites in the
>> constellation that are notorious for noise etc  that could be excluded from
>> the tracking list ...etc etc
>>
>>> Dave
>>>> NR1DX
>>>> ArtekManuals.com
>>>>
>>>> A man with a watch always knows what time it is
>>>> A man with two watches is never quite sure
>>>>
>>>>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From iw2lje at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 14:49:30 2016
From: iw2lje at gmail.com (Luca Dal Passo)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 20:49:30 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Schlumberger FA2527 ocxo
In-Reply-To: <1453817969386.64888.20864@webmail5>
References: <CAK2g+g1J0LVYWny47Og9vRNwrpv6CZaKfMU36F2oHBPYbMNYKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1453817969386.64888.20864@webmail5>
Message-ID: <CAK2g+g3gW-oGm2aKhu+=igY5gv-Po3M_B13FPJXMnW=nE67XAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Gianni. That unit looks quite different, but the informations can
be useful.
Bye
Luca

Il martedì 26 gennaio 2016, gianni <gianni at islandlabs.eu> ha scritto:

> > Hi
> > I have a OCXO marked Schlumberger Adret 622 used in Adret 4101A
> Frequency standard receiver
> > I do not know if it is similar but performance seem OK
> > It is a cube of about 70 mm with DB9 output connector ; frequency is
> 5MHz with external pot adj.
> > The ADEV seem good: data here <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMV1RWaTg1UHc1NjA/view?usp=sharing
> >
> > schematics here:
> > <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMM1ZfalFWTTY5cnM/view?usp=sharing
> >
> > <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMZmdTdG5WZGxCcEU/view?usp=sharing
> >
> > <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ckpiy-AuMMaEs4cHh6NFhyOU0/view?usp=sharing
> >
> >
>
> Gianni
> Il 25 gennaio 2016 12:32:29 +01:00, Luca Dal Passo <iw2lje at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> ha scritto:
>
> > Hi group,
> > Does anyone know something about the Schlumberger type FA2527 5MHz
> > OCXO?
> > It seems to be a good unit, with mumetal shield, coarse and fine
> frequency
> > adj multiturn pots, fine temperature trimmer, good voltage regulator,
> good
> > assembly and internal cylindrical thermal chamber surronded by a wire
> > resistence (double oven?).
> > It was used in Schlumberger electronic counters in the seventies or
> > eighties as a high stability option.
> > I'm trying to understand pin out and supply voltage, but I wish to know
> > some more information about functions of pins, and specifications.
> > Nothing found on the net.....
> > Thank you in advance!
> > Luca
> > iw2lje
> > Milano
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- <time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>>
> > To unsubscribe, go to <
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;>
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 14:50:34 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 14:50:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801 misbehaving
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+im+pGHXxQhFkhnUJW3iiHzLuUEuG94PUs+00wHBFVSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+RTSN7cHeenYbftRA5Eybfa5VbNQCKNo_aWe1UWDc7XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20160129075828.wRMSptGT@smtp3h.mail.yandex.net>
 <CAGRb8t+im+pGHXxQhFkhnUJW3iiHzLuUEuG94PUs+00wHBFVSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAg2Cb=o_5GPVH6JvHCJ6cnNugMPUZJ+hZ7N8J6L5tnUHQ@mail.gmail.com>

I added 2 X AA batteries external to the 3801 to the GPS receiver. Will run
several years and very easy to replace. Now that doesn't make it instant
start but certainly sub hour or less maybe 20 minutes.
Good luck.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 8:43 AM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Charles,
> The place isn't out of the way. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if it got
> a power interruption sometime.  In addition, the temperature isn't stable
> either. It will be at least a couple of weeks before I am ready to attempt
> to use it for anything, and then it won't matter so much about absolute
> accuracy. The thing that had me going about this was that even from the
> very first time I ever fired it up, it always found satellites very
> quickly. Next will be to get some kind of monitoring program running. I
> will have to interrupt the GPS signal soon to insert the splitter so I can
> hook up another receiver at the same time.
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > John wrote:
> >
> > Tonight I got a GPS Lock light. Bravo!
> >>
> >
> > Patience is a virtue.   ;-)
> >
> > Remember this when it comes to all the other metrics -- settling to good
> > stability, in particular, which may take quite a while (weeks to months)
> > since the OCXO has been off for so long.  My suggestion is to put it in
> an
> > out-of-the-way place where the temperature is stable and there is little
> to
> > no risk of it being physically jostled, and forget about it for a month.
> > Then see where you are.  (I mean, really forget it -- don't monitor it,
> > don't look at the lights -- because those will tempt you to play with it,
> > which will make it take even longer to settle.)
> >
> > Charles
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From tvb at leapsecond.com  Fri Jan 29 15:06:28 2016
From: tvb at leapsecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:06:28 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56AB6D13.1000804@burnicki.net>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AB6D13.1000804@burnicki.net>
Message-ID: <0E9175C4-B5E6-4CBF-AA40-B58FCA1EC6D9@leapsecond.com>

A nice summary:

http://www.insidegnss.com/node/4831

/tvb

From eric at scace.org  Fri Jan 29 13:58:04 2016
From: eric at scace.org (Eric Scace)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 10:58:04 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E27D17A8-7955-400D-9D56-596362ED1675@scace.org>

   I have an idle curiosity as to whether the erroneous UTC correction propagated into any high-speed trading platforms in the financial markets in a what that caused a disruption.
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From netmonk at netmonk.org  Fri Jan 29 15:08:12 2016
From: netmonk at netmonk.org (NeT MonK)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:08:12 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <09f75842a2d3976f9d562c41e625c5d0.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <09f75842a2d3976f9d562c41e625c5d0.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAP=C6_v=Z2WVeeJmDOM35DDQA+LJdhX4O-685=9RPjZZgJhzUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:

> On Fri, January 29, 2016 1:32 am, NeT MonK wrote:
> > As a side effect of those glitch in the GPS matrix, the utc_valid_flag
> was
> > not anymore set in the stream of the primary master clock, just before my
> > secondary starts to become active (loss of primary stream) which leads to
> > linux server  ptp slave to readjust of +36 seconds and jump backward -36
> > seconds as far as the flags was coming back.
>
> The difference between UTC and TAI is 36 seconds.
>
> Are you running ptpd or linuxptp on your Linux servers?
> It sounds like the ptp agent running on your servers interpreted the lack
> of UTC valid flag to mean that the timestamps were now in TAI, so the
> server kernel applied the TAI to UTC offset to the time received via PTP.


Dear Chris,

I run sfptpd  which is a fork of linux ptpd daemon adapted to solarflare
network adapter.
I will have to fine tune it in order to be more resilient in such scenario.

But i guess it's not very often the gps system as such incident.

Regards

From netmonk at netmonk.org  Fri Jan 29 15:05:36 2016
From: netmonk at netmonk.org (NeT MonK)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 21:05:36 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <56AB6D13.1000804@burnicki.net>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AB6D13.1000804@burnicki.net>
Message-ID: <CAP=C6_vGO5qcLSjOkikBCQJSt-=dPw8RDKGwcnpouqs7BnScCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Martin Burnicki <
martin.burnicki at burnicki.net> wrote:

> Hello Net Monk,
> ...
> I don't know the details of your PTP setup, but we (at Meinberg) have
> already had another customer some time ago where a Cisco switch acting
> as boundary clock didn't send UTC data reliably when the grandmaster was
> switched.
>
> So eventually you should contact Cisco and see if there is an update
> available for the switch where this is fixed.
>
> Martin
>
>
>
Hello Martin,

Thank you for your reply and details, this is also what i already stated on
my incident report.
My ptp client applied the utc offset when the flag disappeared which lead
to this jump forward and backward.

A call is already opened to Cisco and they are coming in coming weeks for
auditing the ptp infra.

Regards.

From rfnuts at arcor.de  Fri Jan 29 16:58:13 2016
From: rfnuts at arcor.de (Adrian)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 22:58:13 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <000301d15a86$af3db770$0db92650$@bigpond.net.au>
References: <000301d15a86$af3db770$0db92650$@bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <56ABE075.9090804@arcor.de>

Morris,

you might want to download the 5371A service manuals which contain
schematics.
The 5372A being an 'upgraded' version of the 5371A, most of its parts
are identical.
Look for 05371-90018 (Vol.1) and 05371-90034 (Vol.2).
They should be available at www.keysight.com
The scan quality is surprisingly good.

The A10 regulator board is in Vol.2 on p. 7I-9.
The -15 are generated out of the unregulated +25V by a switch mode
regulator, so there should be much less (40kHz switch frequency) ripple
than described.
Otherwise the obvious electrolytics are to be suspected (in particular
C17, but also C7, C24).

Regards,
Adrian


Morris Odell schrieb:
> Hi all,
>
> I have been on a steep learning curve on my new 5372A. It's a lovely
> instrument but does seem to have a higher degree of trigger jitter than I
> would expect. Going on previous experience with other unrelated instruments
> I began by checking the power supplies. (in fact it's hard to go much deeper
> without the unobtainium extenders :-(
>
> Anyway the power supplies all check out OK voltage wise but the -15 does
> have a higher amount of twice mains freq ripple than the others. It's about
> 0.5 V p-p at the test point on the triple regulator board and looks like a
> sawtooth i.e. what you see from inadequate filtering. The service manual is
> unhelpful as it doesn't give schematics, just says to replace the regulator
> board! The -15 features on the schematics for many other parts of the 5372A
> that would be expected to contribute to trigger stability. 
>
> My questions are:
>
> 1. Could anyone on the list with a functioning 5372A slip a scope probe onto
> the -15V test point and check the ripple on a known good unit?
>
> and
>
> 2. Has anyone had to deal with this this problem before?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Morris
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From K4IDC at comcast.net  Fri Jan 29 19:39:53 2016
From: K4IDC at comcast.net (Robin Midgett)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 00:39:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] TM500/TM5000/HP-5370 Extender cables and cards
References: <BLU170-W441C282E82CC39CF537FEBCEAF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <loom.20160130T013735-82@post.gmane.org>

Mark Sims <holrum at ...> writes:

> 
> The TM500/5000 and HP5370 extender kits are now available (actually they 
were ready a few weeks ago, but I
> was going to be out of town and did not want to leave people hanging).Prices 
are:HP5370 extender card kit -
> has 2 x 36 pin extenders and 1 x 44 pin extender.  $30 setTektronix 
TM500/TM5000 module extender cable kit -
> $20Tektronix TM5000 GPIB extender cable (assembled) $20US shipping is $6 for 
any number of kits.
> International shipping is $15 for any number of kits.  If you need 
international tracking they must go
> registered mail which adds another $15 (and slows down the mail) or express 
mail which is stupid
> expensive.  
> All kits include everything you need to get going except solder and basic 
tools.Email me for my Paypal
> address.The HP5370 extenders are 5 inches long.The TM500 kits include a pair 
of 17" 40 pin IDE ribbon
> cables.  You may want to use your own, longer cables.  The TM5000 GPIB cable 
is around 28" long.Remember that
> some TM500/5000 modules require 2 or 3 extender cables...  I even have one 
that needs 4,  but it is a one-off
> custom design. 		 	   		  
> 

Hi Mark,
I found this post while trolling for these extender kits. If the kits are 
still available, I'm interested in acquiring at least one, perhaps two.





From netmonk at netmonk.org  Fri Jan 29 17:52:48 2016
From: netmonk at netmonk.org (NeT MonK)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 23:52:48 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <E27D17A8-7955-400D-9D56-596362ED1675@scace.org>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E27D17A8-7955-400D-9D56-596362ED1675@scace.org>
Message-ID: <CAP=C6_uZPkZEQLWyg=7y5K2kzV=DpAcutyyMYn1aGd55gDGP9A@mail.gmail.com>

Le 29 janv. 2016 22:03, "Eric Scace" <eric at scace.org> a écrit :
>
>    I have an idle curiosity as to whether the erroneous UTC correction
propagated into any high-speed trading platforms in the financial markets
in a what that caused a disruption.

I cannot speak for others but on our plateform, order passing tcp
connections were closed by market servers when we were jumping backward
-36seconds. This happened a hundred of time on the whole platform but
didn't impacted much out daily business result.

Regards.

From logan.cummings at gmail.com  Fri Jan 29 22:19:22 2016
From: logan.cummings at gmail.com (Logan Cummings)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2016 19:19:22 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Valpey-Fisher VFT22H OCXO Output
Message-ID: <CA+98HASCx7+S9uZJVS+dc4hDmLFNzdaY7y0z98UjTXspbs+c_w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

     Curious what could give this waveform (attached) - I presume this is
not correct output for this oscillator (surplus/salvage from Harris
Constellation receiver).

     Frequency looks OK with +2V EFC but output looks like neither sine nor
any CMOS I've seen into 10Mohm (first capture, scope probe alone) or 50ohm
(50ohm term at SMA connector, probed by same scope probe) .

     What gives? If I open up the can, what am I looking to possibly
replace/eliminate? How to open it? It's soldered shut (2x2in case).

     I need a good low-noise 100MHz sine wave for my application so I'm
tempted to open this guy up and replace the output circuitry with something
more suitable.

    Thanks in advance for any pointers/info on these units!
-Logan
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From wb6bnq at cox.net  Sat Jan 30 05:26:00 2016
From: wb6bnq at cox.net (wb6bnq)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 02:26:00 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Valpey-Fisher VFT22H OCXO Output
In-Reply-To: <CA7z1s00u52TSg001A81NS>
References: <CA7z1s00u52TSg001A81NS>
Message-ID: <56AC8FB8.2050702@cox.net>

Hi Logan,

My guess is there is some second or third harmonic energy present.  I 
have observed the very same thing on another oscillator.  Look at it 
with a spectrum analyzer and see what kind of harmonic energy is there.

Bill....WB6BNQ


Logan Cummings wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>     Curious what could give this waveform (attached) - I presume this is
>not correct output for this oscillator (surplus/salvage from Harris
>Constellation receiver).
>
>     Frequency looks OK with +2V EFC but output looks like neither sine nor
>any CMOS I've seen into 10Mohm (first capture, scope probe alone) or 50ohm
>(50ohm term at SMA connector, probed by same scope probe) .
>
>     What gives? If I open up the can, what am I looking to possibly
>replace/eliminate? How to open it? It's soldered shut (2x2in case).
>
>     I need a good low-noise 100MHz sine wave for my application so I'm
>tempted to open this guy up and replace the output circuitry with something
>more suitable.
>
>    Thanks in advance for any pointers/info on these units!
>-Logan
>  
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>


From cfharris at erols.com  Sat Jan 30 08:20:17 2016
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 08:20:17 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Valpey-Fisher VFT22H OCXO Output
In-Reply-To: <CA+98HASCx7+S9uZJVS+dc4hDmLFNzdaY7y0z98UjTXspbs+c_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+98HASCx7+S9uZJVS+dc4hDmLFNzdaY7y0z98UjTXspbs+c_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56ACB891.6040307@erols.com>

Looks like the output of a simple single ended emitter follower
that isn't being loaded properly.

Try again, but this time with a 50 ohms load.

-Chuck Harris

Logan Cummings wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>       Curious what could give this waveform (attached) - I presume this is
> not correct output for this oscillator (surplus/salvage from Harris
> Constellation receiver).
>
>       Frequency looks OK with +2V EFC but output looks like neither sine nor
> any CMOS I've seen into 10Mohm (first capture, scope probe alone) or 50ohm
> (50ohm term at SMA connector, probed by same scope probe) .
>
>       What gives? If I open up the can, what am I looking to possibly
> replace/eliminate? How to open it? It's soldered shut (2x2in case).
>
>       I need a good low-noise 100MHz sine wave for my application so I'm
> tempted to open this guy up and replace the output circuitry with something
> more suitable.
>
>      Thanks in advance for any pointers/info on these units!
> -Logan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 30 09:16:04 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 06:16:04 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
Message-ID: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net>

This month's historical picture from JPL
http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month

This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory in 
1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around the 
world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two millionths of 
a second, when compared to clocks maintained by the National Bureau of 
Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the late 1960s, JPL had 
developed a moon bounce technique to transmit signals from one deep 
space antenna to another. Experiments included periodic measurement of 
timing signals that were reflected from the surface of the moon, to find 
out if the station clocks were within allowable limits for accuracy.

Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that 
picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are 
useful if you have an atomic clock.


Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Jan 30 09:33:45 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 09:33:45 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Valpey-Fisher VFT22H OCXO Output
In-Reply-To: <CA+98HASCx7+S9uZJVS+dc4hDmLFNzdaY7y0z98UjTXspbs+c_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+98HASCx7+S9uZJVS+dc4hDmLFNzdaY7y0z98UjTXspbs+c_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D1452E8A-24DB-4C95-8A22-0167E367CE0C@n1k.org>

Hi

Unless it’s a really weird termination impedance, it’s broke. The SMA is a pretty 
good indication that it *should* work into a 50 ohm load. 

The only other possibility is that your probe is taking the load far enough off of 50 ohms
to mis-tune the output filter. I’d set the scope to 50 ohm input and cabe the output directly to it.
If that’s not practical, put a 6 db 50 ohm pad on the output of the oscillator and see what it 
looks like after that. 

Bob


> On Jan 29, 2016, at 10:19 PM, Logan Cummings <logan.cummings at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
>     Curious what could give this waveform (attached) - I presume this is
> not correct output for this oscillator (surplus/salvage from Harris
> Constellation receiver).
> 
>     Frequency looks OK with +2V EFC but output looks like neither sine nor
> any CMOS I've seen into 10Mohm (first capture, scope probe alone) or 50ohm
> (50ohm term at SMA connector, probed by same scope probe) .
> 
>     What gives? If I open up the can, what am I looking to possibly
> replace/eliminate? How to open it? It's soldered shut (2x2in case).
> 
>     I need a good low-noise 100MHz sine wave for my application so I'm
> tempted to open this guy up and replace the output circuitry with something
> more suitable.
> 
>    Thanks in advance for any pointers/info on these units!
> -Logan
> <tek00000.png><tek00001.png>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From vilgotch at bigpond.net.au  Sat Jan 30 07:07:28 2016
From: vilgotch at bigpond.net.au (Morris Odell)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 23:07:28 +1100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5372A troubleshooting
Message-ID: <000301d15b56$ca08bb60$5e1a3220$@bigpond.net.au>

Adrian,

Thanks very much! I had no idea those scans were available for the 5371A. I'll download them at once.

Regards,

Morris
-----------------------
From: Adrian <rfnuts at arcor.de>

Morris,

you might want to download the 5371A service manuals which contain
schematics.
The 5372A being an 'upgraded' version of the 5371A, most of its parts
are identical.
Look for 05371-90018 (Vol.1) and 05371-90034 (Vol.2).
They should be available at www.keysight.com
The scan quality is surprisingly good.

The A10 regulator board is in Vol.2 on p. 7I-9.
The -15 are generated out of the unregulated +25V by a switch mode
regulator, so there should be much less (40kHz switch frequency) ripple
than described.
Otherwise the obvious electrolytics are to be suspected (in particular
C17, but also C7, C24).

Regards,
Adrian


From r1ftrouter at hushmail.com  Sat Jan 30 07:46:33 2016
From: r1ftrouter at hushmail.com (r1ftrouter)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 07:46:33 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS jumps of -13.7 us?
In-Reply-To: <CAP=C6_vGO5qcLSjOkikBCQJSt-=dPw8RDKGwcnpouqs7BnScCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56A78CE9.20200@xs4all.nl> <56A7F753.8020205@burnicki.net>
 <56A80C39.8060801@rubidium.dyndns.org> <56A8F530.1060901@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vsiYjkc1yXH5OTEyoSGC9ZGV-oC8uubuDkM45fZRc4xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AB6D13.1000804@burnicki.net>
 <CAP=C6_vGO5qcLSjOkikBCQJSt-=dPw8RDKGwcnpouqs7BnScCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <be8a447875e1e595c144c085af26bbf1@smtp.hushmail.com>

Cisco as a boundary clock is susceptible to error. Ive seen under conditions of cpu-bound high traffic load (bgp event, high levels of broadcast) the ptp process has a lower interrupt priority on the scheduler and therefore prone to more jitter when it comes to acting as a master. As the Cisco devices do not accept a pps input one is better off using a server which does for greater master clock stability, or going to what device recieves your signal from GPS antennae. 

Dont expect too much from TAC on this btw. 

//r1ftrouter

> On Jan 29, 2016, at 3:05 PM, NeT MonK <netmonk at netmonk.org> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Martin Burnicki <
> martin.burnicki at burnicki.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hello Net Monk,
>> ...
>> I don't know the details of your PTP setup, but we (at Meinberg) have
>> already had another customer some time ago where a Cisco switch acting
>> as boundary clock didn't send UTC data reliably when the grandmaster was
>> switched.
>> 
>> So eventually you should contact Cisco and see if there is an update
>> available for the switch where this is fixed.
>> 
>> Martin
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Hello Martin,
> 
> Thank you for your reply and details, this is also what i already stated on
> my incident report.
> My ptp client applied the utc offset when the flag disappeared which lead
> to this jump forward and backward.
> 
> A call is already opened to Cisco and they are coming in coming weeks for
> auditing the ptp infra.
> 
> Regards.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From grant at ghengineering.co.uk  Sat Jan 30 13:11:14 2016
From: grant at ghengineering.co.uk (Grant Hodgson)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:11:14 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Valpey-Fisher VFT22H OCXO Output
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3019.1454148469.24750.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.3019.1454148469.24750.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <56ACFCC2.3060908@ghengineering.co.uk>

Logan

It looks alright to me - it's a sine wave output with some 2nd and 
higher order harmonics, nothing unusual there.

If you want a cleaner output then an external low pass filter will soon 
clean it up.

regards
Grant


From: Logan Cummings <logan.cummings at gmail.com>
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Valpey-Fisher VFT22H OCXO Output
Message-ID:
	<CA+98HASCx7+S9uZJVS+dc4hDmLFNzdaY7y0z98UjTXspbs+c_w at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi All,

      Curious what could give this waveform (attached) - I presume this is
not correct output for this oscillator (surplus/salvage from Harris
Constellation receiver).

      Frequency looks OK with +2V EFC but output looks like neither sine nor
any CMOS I've seen into 10Mohm (first capture, scope probe alone) or 50ohm
(50ohm term at SMA connector, probed by same scope probe) .

      What gives? If I open up the can, what am I looking to possibly
replace/eliminate? How to open it? It's soldered shut (2x2in case).

      I need a good low-noise 100MHz sine wave for my application so I'm
tempted to open this guy up and replace the output circuitry with something
more suitable.

     Thanks in advance for any pointers/info on these units!
-Logan

From jn6wfo at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 13:43:16 2016
From: jn6wfo at gmail.com (Jeremy Nichols)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 10:43:16 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net>
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>

Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360 
Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:
> This month's historical picture from JPL
> http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month
>
> This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory 
> in 1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around 
> the world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two 
> millionths of a second, when compared to clocks maintained by the 
> National Bureau of Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the 
> late 1960s, JPL had developed a moon bounce technique to transmit 
> signals from one deep space antenna to another. Experiments included 
> periodic measurement of timing signals that were reflected from the 
> surface of the moon, to find out if the station clocks were within 
> allowable limits for accuracy.
>
> Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that 
> picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are 
> useful if you have an atomic clock.
>
>
> Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From danrae at verizon.net  Sat Jan 30 13:17:44 2016
From: danrae at verizon.net (Dan Rae)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 10:17:44 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] MicroPulse L1/L2 Surveying Antenna
Message-ID: <56ACFE48.8040401@verizon.net>

Does anyone have any details on the above antenna?  Part Number is: 
90LL122300-2 and it has a sticker on it saying it is a Global Hawk 
Asset, it has a big set of choke rings (about 35 cm across) and looks as 
though it might have been designed to be mounted flush on an aircraft body.

I'm doing a LH survey at present with it perched temporarily on a wall 
at the back of my house and it seems healthy at 5V supply.

Dan

ac6ao



From pete at petelancashire.com  Sat Jan 30 14:16:53 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 11:16:53 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for any information on a Leica MX 9400R
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-x1GppXGE2Bj2VjFTdrOG+RQkH0+4u-ytH7s13VWijyg@mail.gmail.com>

Found very little.

http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5273

12 channel receiver and a few other bits of information.

4 RS-232 interfaces all come out of a DC-37 (the same
profile as the DB-25 but 37 pins)

-pete

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sat Jan 30 14:35:34 2016
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 08:35:34 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Valpey-Fisher VFT22H OCXO Output
In-Reply-To: <D1452E8A-24DB-4C95-8A22-0167E367CE0C@n1k.org>
References: <CA+98HASCx7+S9uZJVS+dc4hDmLFNzdaY7y0z98UjTXspbs+c_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <D1452E8A-24DB-4C95-8A22-0167E367CE0C@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <1753730.TbSTSUg2Sy@linux>

Waveform is similar to that produced by an inductive input low pass filter with 
all but the first section inoperative when driven by a square wave input.

Bruce
On Saturday, January 30, 2016 09:33:45 AM Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Unless it’s a really weird termination impedance, it’s broke. The SMA is a
> pretty good indication that it *should* work into a 50 ohm load.
> 
> The only other possibility is that your probe is taking the load far enough
> off of 50 ohms to mis-tune the output filter. I’d set the scope to 50 ohm
> input and cabe the output directly to it. If that’s not practical, put a 6
> db 50 ohm pad on the output of the oscillator and see what it looks like
> after that.
> 
> Bob
> 
> > On Jan 29, 2016, at 10:19 PM, Logan Cummings <logan.cummings at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> >     Curious what could give this waveform (attached) - I presume this is
> > 
> > not correct output for this oscillator (surplus/salvage from Harris
> > Constellation receiver).
> > 
> >     Frequency looks OK with +2V EFC but output looks like neither sine nor
> > 
> > any CMOS I've seen into 10Mohm (first capture, scope probe alone) or 50ohm
> > (50ohm term at SMA connector, probed by same scope probe) .
> > 
> >     What gives? If I open up the can, what am I looking to possibly
> > 
> > replace/eliminate? How to open it? It's soldered shut (2x2in case).
> > 
> >     I need a good low-noise 100MHz sine wave for my application so I'm
> > 
> > tempted to open this guy up and replace the output circuitry with
> > something
> > more suitable.
> > 
> >    Thanks in advance for any pointers/info on these units!
> > 
> > -Logan
> > <tek00000.png><tek00001.png>______________________________________________
> > _
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the
> > instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the
> instructions there.


From jimlux at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 30 14:19:27 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 11:19:27 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net> <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56AD0CBF.7010609@earthlink.net>

On 1/30/16 10:43 AM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
> Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
> Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.
>
> Jeremy
> N6WFO

I like how none of the push buttons in the panel below the counters have 
labels, either on the faceplate or on the button themselves.

I'll see if I can track down more info. That handsome devil of an 
engineer in the picture probably still works at the lab (albeit with 
gray or no hair).  Heck, the rack with the instruments is probably still 
out at Goldstone and being used.  It's old enough that it doesn't have 
the new inventory barcodes on it, though.

I just checked, and there are no pieces of property with the 5360 in the 
model number.  So that piece of gear may have been excessed.

There are, however, 3 of the 5245 counters around, and judging from the 
location codes, I think they're still out at the DSN sites or similar. 
No 5265s in the database, but they may not have been separately 
inventoried.


From normanlizeth at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 14:47:25 2016
From: normanlizeth at gmail.com (Norm n3ykf)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 14:47:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net>
	<56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUhCTOW5qcBoUXuCZQBv-OoaPzAU2OE-Vom+vNUqq3DydbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>

HP 5245M to be exact. There's one in my rack. Different plugin, same time
base. Still works at 5 GHz.

On Saturday, January 30, 2016, Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
> Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.
>
> Jeremy
> N6WFO
>
>
> On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:
>
>> This month's historical picture from JPL
>> http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month
>>
>> This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory in
>> 1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around the
>> world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two millionths of a
>> second, when compared to clocks maintained by the National Bureau of
>> Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the late 1960s, JPL had
>> developed a moon bounce technique to transmit signals from one deep space
>> antenna to another. Experiments included periodic measurement of timing
>> signals that were reflected from the surface of the moon, to find out if
>> the station clocks were within allowable limits for accuracy.
>>
>> Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that
>> picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are
>> useful if you have an atomic clock.
>>
>>
>> Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From iw2lje at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 15:49:51 2016
From: iw2lje at gmail.com (Luca Dal Passo)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 21:49:51 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] 10 MHz phase comparison using Bruel & Kjaer type 2971
	phase meter
Message-ID: <CAK2g+g0Pd1KYjXPePGOO4mtfO_xwf4C-D2qJWMyb_FLjWREfOg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
    while i was looking for an hp k34-59991A phase comparator on ebay in
order to make some long term measurements of frequency drift of a dut
against a reference (by logging the analog output of the meter) i found and
bought a Bruel & Kjaer type 2971 phase meter instead of the hp.
It is a very nice unit, with digital and analog readout, high resolution
and high precision.
The drawback is that it is a very low frequency device, specified for the
range 2Hz to 200 kHz.
So, to compare two 5 or 10 MHz signals i'm thinking to use two simple
double balanced mixer, some low pass filtering on the IF outs of the
mixers, and a common local oscillator of about 5,1 MHz or 10,1 MHz to
convert signals into the range of the instrument.
The actual frequency of the local oscillator does not metter, because it is
the same for the two input signal, and theoretically i could use even a
simple free oscillator, provided only the frequency falls in the correct
region regardless of phase noise and stability because their effects are
subtracted cancelling themselves. Anyway i think to use a simple ambient
temperature xtal oscillator for that.
What are your opinions? What i'm forghetting to consider? What kind of
drawback i have to expect?
The other question is about the availability of user/service manual (or at
least schematics) of the  Bruel & Kjaer 2971: i'm not able to find anything
on the net.
Many thanks!
Luca
IW2LJE

From zl3ag at radioengineering.com  Sat Jan 30 16:06:07 2016
From: zl3ag at radioengineering.com (Andy ZL3AG)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 10:06:07 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net> <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B2890AF2-6B70-4FA7-847F-E5A5BF62B0C2@radioengineering.com>


Hat tip to the 8405A Vector Voltmeter in the other rack.

Yeah. Great photo!

On Jan 31, 2016, at 7:43 AM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:

> Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360 Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.
> 
> Jeremy
> N6WFO
> 


From tractorb at ihug.co.nz  Sat Jan 30 17:26:35 2016
From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:26:35 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net><56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
 <CAJUhCTOW5qcBoUXuCZQBv-OoaPzAU2OE-Vom+vNUqq3DydbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DD022920BB294E2FAD8FFB4FF3F32BD3@athlon3200>

The one in the rack is a 5245L actually. You need to blow the photo up to 
see. First thing I looked for as I wondered if they used the higher spec 
timebase model but the L timebase was probably driven from a separate 
external source. Still have two Ms and an L here- AND still looking for a 
couple of the 12 GHz plugins.
73
Dave
ZL3FJ


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Norm n3ykf" <normanlizeth at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2016 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization


> HP 5245M to be exact. There's one in my rack. Different plugin, same time
> base. Still works at 5 GHz.
>
> On Saturday, January 30, 2016, Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
>> Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.
>>
>> Jeremy
>> N6WFO
>>
>>
>> On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:
>>
>>> This month's historical picture from JPL
>>> http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month
>>>
>>> This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory in
>>> 1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around the
>>> world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two millionths of 
>>> a
>>> second, when compared to clocks maintained by the National Bureau of
>>> Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the late 1960s, JPL had
>>> developed a moon bounce technique to transmit signals from one deep 
>>> space
>>> antenna to another. Experiments included periodic measurement of timing
>>> signals that were reflected from the surface of the moon, to find out if
>>> the station clocks were within allowable limits for accuracy.
>>>
>>> Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that
>>> picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are
>>> useful if you have an atomic clock.
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there. 


From alex at pcscons.com  Sat Jan 30 17:52:28 2016
From: alex at pcscons.com (Alex Pummer)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 14:52:28 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] 10 MHz phase comparison using Bruel & Kjaer type
 2971 phase meter
In-Reply-To: <CAK2g+g0Pd1KYjXPePGOO4mtfO_xwf4C-D2qJWMyb_FLjWREfOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK2g+g0Pd1KYjXPePGOO4mtfO_xwf4C-D2qJWMyb_FLjWREfOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56AD3EAC.3090200@pcscons.com>

Hi Luca,
look here:  http://www.clmt.de/service-manuals/
73
KJ6UHN
Alex
On 1/30/2016 12:49 PM, Luca Dal Passo wrote:
> Hi All,
>      while i was looking for an hp k34-59991A phase comparator on ebay in
> order to make some long term measurements of frequency drift of a dut
> against a reference (by logging the analog output of the meter) i found and
> bought a Bruel & Kjaer type 2971 phase meter instead of the hp.
> It is a very nice unit, with digital and analog readout, high resolution
> and high precision.
> The drawback is that it is a very low frequency device, specified for the
> range 2Hz to 200 kHz.
> So, to compare two 5 or 10 MHz signals i'm thinking to use two simple
> double balanced mixer, some low pass filtering on the IF outs of the
> mixers, and a common local oscillator of about 5,1 MHz or 10,1 MHz to
> convert signals into the range of the instrument.
> The actual frequency of the local oscillator does not metter, because it is
> the same for the two input signal, and theoretically i could use even a
> simple free oscillator, provided only the frequency falls in the correct
> region regardless of phase noise and stability because their effects are
> subtracted cancelling themselves. Anyway i think to use a simple ambient
> temperature xtal oscillator for that.
> What are your opinions? What i'm forghetting to consider? What kind of
> drawback i have to expect?
> The other question is about the availability of user/service manual (or at
> least schematics) of the  Bruel & Kjaer 2971: i'm not able to find anything
> on the net.
> Many thanks!
> Luca
> IW2LJE
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2016.0.7357 / Virus Database: 4522/11519 - Release Date: 01/30/16


From eb4apl at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 18:01:29 2016
From: eb4apl at gmail.com (EB4APL)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:01:29 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <56AD0CBF.7010609@earthlink.net>
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net> <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
 <56AD0CBF.7010609@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56AD40C9.9020903@gmail.com>

I was a lot of times at the other side of the link, the receiving end, 
those days (and I also have no hair).
The procedure was cumbersome: you have to climb to the roof to manually 
point a small parabolic antenna to the moon using handwheels and a rifle 
scope. The antenna had an hourangle electrical drive which moved it at 
sidereal rate through a differential gear and a variable speed motor so 
you can select an offset to the rate that matched the moon motion at the 
time.
Back to the Control Room you contact the transmitting station (I think 
it was DSS12) by voice to insure that they have the station manned and 
transmitting, and began to operate the "thing". The transmission were 
specific for each receiving station, because all the complex processing 
was done at the transmission end: the transmitting equipment accounted 
for the instantaneous round trip distance between the transmitter and 
the receiver via the moon and continuously adjusted the modulating code 
"early" in order to to be received on time.  The equipment also 
introduced a one microsecond shift each second. The receiver had a 
correlator whose output went to an HP strip chart recorder which draw 
the correlator output in one channel and a PPS with a minute mark in the 
second.
If everything went OK we recorded several ramps from the correlator 
output, and here comes where the fun started: we had to adjust the noisy 
ramp to a straight line and extrapolate it to the zero crossing. 
Counting the seconds from the minute mark + 30 up to the zero crossing 
we got the local clock offset.
Fortunately we relied on Loran C as our main clock offset determination 
method until the arrival of GPS.

Good old times.

Ignacio, EB4APL and former DSN engineer.



El 30/01/2016 a las 20:19, jimlux wrote:
> On 1/30/16 10:43 AM, Jeremy Nichols wrote:
>> Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
>> Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.
>>
>> Jeremy
>> N6WFO
>
> I like how none of the push buttons in the panel below the counters 
> have labels, either on the faceplate or on the button themselves.
>
> I'll see if I can track down more info. That handsome devil of an 
> engineer in the picture probably still works at the lab (albeit with 
> gray or no hair).  Heck, the rack with the instruments is probably 
> still out at Goldstone and being used.  It's old enough that it 
> doesn't have the new inventory barcodes on it, though.
>
> I just checked, and there are no pieces of property with the 5360 in 
> the model number.  So that piece of gear may have been excessed.
>
> There are, however, 3 of the 5245 counters around, and judging from 
> the location codes, I think they're still out at the DSN sites or 
> similar. No 5265s in the database, but they may not have been 
> separately inventoried.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> .
>


---
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From jn6wfo at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 16:19:44 2016
From: jn6wfo at gmail.com (Jeremy Nichols)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 13:19:44 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <CAJUhCTOW5qcBoUXuCZQBv-OoaPzAU2OE-Vom+vNUqq3DydbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net> <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
 <CAJUhCTOW5qcBoUXuCZQBv-OoaPzAU2OE-Vom+vNUqq3DydbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56AD28F0.50203@gmail.com>

If you look closely at the picture, you'll see that it's an "L," but 
there isn't quite enough resolution to say whether it's a 5245L or a 
5248L. Probably 5245L because most 5248s had the hi-accuracy (for the 
era!) standard and were sold as 5248M.

Jeremy


On 1/30/2016 11:47 AM, Norm n3ykf wrote:
> HP 5245M to be exact. There's one in my rack. Different plugin, same time
> base. Still works at 5 GHz.
>
> On Saturday, January 30, 2016, Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
>> Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.
>>
>> Jeremy
>> N6WFO
>>
>>
>> On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:
>>
>>> This month's historical picture from JPL
>>> http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month
>>>
>>> This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory in
>>> 1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around the
>>> world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two millionths of a
>>> second, when compared to clocks maintained by the National Bureau of
>>> Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the late 1960s, JPL had
>>> developed a moon bounce technique to transmit signals from one deep space
>>> antenna to another. Experiments included periodic measurement of timing
>>> signals that were reflected from the surface of the moon, to find out if
>>> the station clocks were within allowable limits for accuracy.
>>>
>>> Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that
>>> picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are
>>> useful if you have an atomic clock.
>>>
>>>
>>> Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sat Jan 30 18:27:07 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:27:07 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 10 MHz phase comparison using Bruel & Kjaer type
 2971 phase meter
In-Reply-To: <56AD3EAC.3090200@pcscons.com>
References: <CAK2g+g0Pd1KYjXPePGOO4mtfO_xwf4C-D2qJWMyb_FLjWREfOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD3EAC.3090200@pcscons.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAhVycFhQgBCAxUTOrWMFO460=53z08yV2RZGwdGO34=Gw@mail.gmail.com>

Luca,
I am using a HP3575a phase and gain meter good to 1Hz-13 MHz but easily
goes to 15 MHz. It delivers a dc voltage that feeds a DATAQ 4 cnl USB A/D
coverter and chart program $25.
Its been working very well for comparing references long term.
Just suggesting the 3575 as a possible alternative.
Good luck
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Alex Pummer <alex at pcscons.com> wrote:

> Hi Luca,
> look here:  http://www.clmt.de/service-manuals/
> 73
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
>
> On 1/30/2016 12:49 PM, Luca Dal Passo wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>      while i was looking for an hp k34-59991A phase comparator on ebay in
>> order to make some long term measurements of frequency drift of a dut
>> against a reference (by logging the analog output of the meter) i found
>> and
>> bought a Bruel & Kjaer type 2971 phase meter instead of the hp.
>> It is a very nice unit, with digital and analog readout, high resolution
>> and high precision.
>> The drawback is that it is a very low frequency device, specified for the
>> range 2Hz to 200 kHz.
>> So, to compare two 5 or 10 MHz signals i'm thinking to use two simple
>> double balanced mixer, some low pass filtering on the IF outs of the
>> mixers, and a common local oscillator of about 5,1 MHz or 10,1 MHz to
>> convert signals into the range of the instrument.
>> The actual frequency of the local oscillator does not metter, because it
>> is
>> the same for the two input signal, and theoretically i could use even a
>> simple free oscillator, provided only the frequency falls in the correct
>> region regardless of phase noise and stability because their effects are
>> subtracted cancelling themselves. Anyway i think to use a simple ambient
>> temperature xtal oscillator for that.
>> What are your opinions? What i'm forghetting to consider? What kind of
>> drawback i have to expect?
>> The other question is about the availability of user/service manual (or at
>> least schematics) of the  Bruel & Kjaer 2971: i'm not able to find
>> anything
>> on the net.
>> Many thanks!
>> Luca
>> IW2LJE
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2016.0.7357 / Virus Database: 4522/11519 - Release Date: 01/30/16
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From bill.iaxs at pobox.com  Sat Jan 30 19:00:50 2016
From: bill.iaxs at pobox.com (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 18:00:50 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net> <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <401F4A07D6E6450ABAC5D4973B6A6726@system072>

And on the top left, a fan-fold paper printer for the data.

Imagine handling all of that data manually instead of getting it in a
disk file.

Bill Hawkins 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Nichols
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 12:43 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization

Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.

Jeremy
N6WFO


On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:
> This month's historical picture from JPL 
> http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month
>
> This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards Laboratory 
> in 1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network stations around 
> the world. This master clock was accurate to plus or minus two 
> millionths of a second, when compared to clocks maintained by the 
> National Bureau of Standards and the U.S. Naval Observatory. In the 
> late 1960s, JPL had developed a moon bounce technique to transmit 
> signals from one deep space antenna to another. Experiments included 
> periodic measurement of timing signals that were reflected from the 
> surface of the moon, to find out if the station clocks were within 
> allowable limits for accuracy.
>
> Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things in that 
> picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that are

> useful if you have an atomic clock.
>
>
> Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.
>


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sat Jan 30 19:27:59 2016
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 16:27:59 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: Message from EB4APL <eb4apl@gmail.com>
 of "Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:01:29 +0100." <56AD40C9.9020903@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160131002800.0E4BA406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


eb4apl at gmail.com said:
> Back to the Control Room you contact the transmitting station (I think  it
> was DSS12) by voice to insure that they have the station manned and
> transmitting, and began to operate the "thing". The transmission were
> specific for each receiving station, because all the complex processing  was
> done at the transmission end: the transmitting equipment accounted  for the
> instantaneous round trip distance between the transmitter and  the receiver
> via the moon and continuously adjusted the modulating code  "early" in order
> to to be received on time.  The equipment also  introduced a one microsecond
> shift each second. The receiver had a  correlator whose output went to an HP
> strip chart recorder which draw  the correlator output in one channel and a
> PPS with a minute mark in the  second. 

What sort of frequency accuracy were you after?

Did somebody have to correct for the Doppler due to the rotation of the Earth?


> Fortunately we relied on Loran C as our main clock offset determination
> method until the arrival of GPS. 

How did Loran synchronize their clocks?


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From dgminala at mediacombb.net  Sat Jan 30 20:06:01 2016
From: dgminala at mediacombb.net (Dave M)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 19:06:01 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
References: <56ACC5A4.5070906@earthlink.net> <56AD0444.80806@gmail.com>
 <CAJUhCTOW5qcBoUXuCZQBv-OoaPzAU2OE-Vom+vNUqq3DydbJTQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56AD28F0.50203@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2AE5A53771DE44E9A8B39F90FE934F0D@D77M7BF1>

The counter is definitely a 5245L.  See attached (enlarged) image.  To the 
left of the gent's head is another 5245L with a 5264A Preset Unit plugin.
This all reminds me of my time in a Calibration Lab after my Navy enlistment 
was over.  These models were my bread &* butter for several years.  Great 
stuff for its time, and still useful on a bench.

Cheers,
Dave M


Jeremy Nichols wrote:
> If you look closely at the picture, you'll see that it's an "L," but
> there isn't quite enough resolution to say whether it's a 5245L or a
> 5248L. Probably 5245L because most 5248s had the hi-accuracy (for the
> era!) standard and were sold as 5248M.
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On 1/30/2016 11:47 AM, Norm n3ykf wrote:
>> HP 5245M to be exact. There's one in my rack. Different plugin, same
>> time base. Still works at 5 GHz.
>>
>> On Saturday, January 30, 2016, Jeremy Nichols <jn6wfo at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Ooh! Ooh! Not only a 5245 with a 5265 voltmeter plug-in but a 5360
>>> Computing Pig! Great picture, thanks for posting it.
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>> N6WFO
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/30/2016 6:16 AM, jimlux wrote:
>>>
>>>> This month's historical picture from JPL
>>>> http://beacon.jpl.nasa.gov/historical-photo-of-the-month
>>>>
>>>> This atomic clock was used at the Goldstone Time Standards
>>>> Laboratory in 1970, to synchronize clocks at Deep Space Network
>>>> stations around the world. This master clock was accurate to plus
>>>> or minus two millionths of a second, when compared to clocks
>>>> maintained by the National Bureau of Standards and the U.S. Naval
>>>> Observatory. In the late 1960s, JPL had developed a moon bounce
>>>> technique to transmit signals from one deep space antenna to
>>>> another. Experiments included periodic measurement of timing
>>>> signals that were reflected from the surface of the moon, to find
>>>> out if the station clocks were within allowable limits for
>>>> accuracy.  Time-nut will recognize, of course, that none of the things 
>>>> in that
>>>> picture are actually an atomic clock, although they are thing that
>>>> are useful if you have an atomic clock.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note the sophisticated temperature monitoring system.
-------------- next part --------------
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From jimlux at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 30 20:21:03 2016
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 17:21:03 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <20160131002800.0E4BA406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20160131002800.0E4BA406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <56AD617F.6000800@earthlink.net>

On 1/30/16 4:27 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>
> eb4apl at gmail.com said:
>> Back to the Control Room you contact the transmitting station (I think  it
>> was DSS12) by voice to insure that they have the station manned and
>> transmitting, and began to operate the "thing". The transmission were
>> specific for each receiving station, because all the complex processing  was
>> done at the transmission end: the transmitting equipment accounted  for the
>> instantaneous round trip distance between the transmitter and  the receiver
>> via the moon and continuously adjusted the modulating code  "early" in order
>> to to be received on time.  The equipment also  introduced a one microsecond
>> shift each second. The receiver had a  correlator whose output went to an HP
>> strip chart recorder which draw  the correlator output in one channel and a
>> PPS with a minute mark in the  second.
>
> What sort of frequency accuracy were you after?
>
> Did somebody have to correct for the Doppler due to the rotation of the Earth?

I'm pretty sure they did. Ignacio can say for sure.

We precompensate on transmit to get the signal to arrive at the 
spacecraft at its "best lock frequency". Or, actually slightly off, then 
we ramp through the BLF so the receiver can acquire the carrier. The 
receiver bandwidth might be as narrow as a few 10s of Hz, so you don't 
want to be too far off or ramp too fast.

On S-band (2-2.3GHz), the earth rotation Doppler is about 2-3kHz. 
(0.5km/sec), depending on latitude and where the Moon is in the sky.

If you're doing the Moon, you put its motion via a SPK file into the 
algorithm.  In 1970, that would have been a bit more tedious<grin>. 
With the moon, it depends on what part of the moon you're aiming at, too.

Last year (March 3rd), I was doing an experiment bouncing a DSN signal 
from Goldstone off the moon and receiving it at JPL. As I recall, the 
"spot" on the moon was about 800km in diameter. For what it's worth, you 
don't need a particularly good receiver when your transmitter is 20 
kilowatts into a 34m antenna (DSS 24).

Since our transmit and receive site were pretty close together, the 
Doppler of earth motion wasn't much, but there was Lunar Doppler, on top 
of that, there's libration.


Chuck Counselman did a bunch of work with VLBI type techniques using 
various ground stations around the world to determine where things (like 
the lunar rover) were on the surface of the moon.

From Manuals at ArtekManuals.com  Sat Jan 30 21:21:37 2016
From: Manuals at ArtekManuals.com (Artek Manuals)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 21:21:37 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Z3801A Internal Power Supply issues
Message-ID: <56AD6FB1.4070804@ArtekManuals.com>

My Z3801A began to die over the last few days. It would work for an hour 
or two then produce a receiver error and communications problems. Turn 
it off, let it sit awhile, back on and it would start the survey and 
then begin to recover. Tonight it finally went dead with high current on 
the main input . The feed supply  has a 2amp current limit so I have not 
blown the two 3amp fuses

I have a schematic of the supply reverse engineered by Stefan Hegnauere 
a few years ago (thank you very much) and a limited theory of operation 
description so I am not totally dead from a troubleshooting point of 
view although if one of the DC-DC converters is dead then I will likely 
have to scrap the supply

Questions
1) Any prior experience as where to look first I checked the 
electrolytics and at first glance they seem fine, no loss of magic smoke 
or any parts obviously hot or bulging. ESR 's look good on those
2) Will this supply function unloaded while I troubleshoot it on the 
bench out of the unit?
3) Anyone tried independent powering the Z3801? looks like two 5V 
supplies and +/- 15V..not hard to to do
4) Anyone with a good supply from a parts unit want to part with same?

Dave
NR1DX
ArtekManuals.com

-- 
Dave
Manuals at ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


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From pete at petelancashire.com  Sat Jan 30 15:33:22 2016
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 12:33:22 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for any information on a Leica MX 9400R
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-x1GppXGE2Bj2VjFTdrOG+RQkH0+4u-ytH7s13VWijyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-x1GppXGE2Bj2VjFTdrOG+RQkH0+4u-ytH7s13VWijyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-n918F3=Sg8fsAwRCui4E3WUD-WnG=tQQ4Z0AN5KCOWA@mail.gmail.com>

Made a mistake, the I/F connector is a DB-25. But still 4xRS-232 (maybe?)

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:

> Found very little.
>
> http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=5273
>
> 12 channel receiver and a few other bits of information.
>
> 4 RS-232 interfaces all come out of a DC-37 (the same
> profile as the DB-25 but 37 pins)
>
> -pete
>
>
>

From alex at pcscons.com  Sun Jan 31 00:04:33 2016
From: alex at pcscons.com (Alex Pummer)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2016 21:04:33 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Z3801A Internal Power Supply issues
In-Reply-To: <56AD6FB1.4070804@ArtekManuals.com>
References: <56AD6FB1.4070804@ArtekManuals.com>
Message-ID: <56AD95E1.4070302@pcscons.com>

power supply runs for a while, output current increases, but voltage 
stays correct -> problem is in the load circuit, load circuit working 
for a while load current increases, but it recovers after pause -> look 
for some tantalum capacitor in the load circuit, they recover often  a 
few times before they finally die,
KJ6UHN
Alex

On 1/30/2016 6:21 PM, Artek Manuals wrote:
> My Z3801A began to die over the last few days. It would work for an 
> hour or two then produce a receiver error and communications problems. 
> Turn it off, let it sit awhile, back on and it would start the survey 
> and then begin to recover. Tonight it finally went dead with high 
> current on the main input . The feed supply has a 2amp current limit 
> so I have not blown the two 3amp fuses
>
> I have a schematic of the supply reverse engineered by Stefan 
> Hegnauere a few years ago (thank you very much) and a limited theory 
> of operation description so I am not totally dead from a 
> troubleshooting point of view although if one of the DC-DC converters 
> is dead then I will likely have to scrap the supply
>
> Questions
> 1) Any prior experience as where to look first I checked the 
> electrolytics and at first glance they seem fine, no loss of magic 
> smoke or any parts obviously hot or bulging. ESR 's look good on those
> 2) Will this supply function unloaded while I troubleshoot it on the 
> bench out of the unit?
> 3) Anyone tried independent powering the Z3801? looks like two 5V 
> supplies and +/- 15V..not hard to to do
> 4) Anyone with a good supply from a parts unit want to part with same?
>
> Dave
> NR1DX
> ArtekManuals.com
>


From harmon52 at mchsi.com  Sun Jan 31 01:59:32 2016
From: harmon52 at mchsi.com (Robert Harmon)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 00:59:32 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for info on a Leica MX 9400R
Message-ID: <23546495C5864002ABB60AC7994940E3@bobsp4>

I have a couple of Leica MX 9400Rs in storage at work along with the Leica
manuals.

What are you looking for specifically.

Bob

 


From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Sun Jan 31 06:11:06 2016
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 06:11:06 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution amplifier architectures - mini-tutorial
Message-ID: <20160131141113.BD388qxp@smtp1m.mail.yandex.net>

I mentioned some time ago that I had posted a document to Didier's 
site that discusses various distribution amplifier architectures.  It 
has now been moved into the "general population" and can be found at:

<http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/download.php?file=02_GPS_Timing/4_App_Notes_and_Articles/Tutorial_Distribution_Amplifier_Architectures_STEINMETZ_rev1.pdf>

or by searching for "distribution amplifier architectures" using the 
search box at:

<http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/index.php>


I also posted a mini-tutorial on the '390 dual decade counter/divider 
(74HC390, 74LS390, etc.), which I put together for a time nut who is 
new to digital counters.  It explains the basics of how a '390 works 
(but not advanced techniques using the "Reset" inputs) and shows 
connections for using one half of a '390 as a divide-by-10, and using 
both halves as a divide-by-10 and divide-by-2 (5MHz and 1MHz from 
10MHz).  It can be found at:

<http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals/download.php?file=03_App_Notes_-_Proceedings/Tutorial_390_decade_counter_operation_and_applications.pdf>

or by searching for "390 decade counter operation".


Best regards,

Charles


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 09:11:56 2016
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 09:11:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Z3801A Internal Power Supply issues
In-Reply-To: <56AD95E1.4070302@pcscons.com>
References: <56AD6FB1.4070804@ArtekManuals.com> <56AD95E1.4070302@pcscons.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAg_qdTwixF=5WceRqXkM2ojFp2ohw4Basgcbc2wcuCXkQ@mail.gmail.com>

As I mentioned in the another thread this week.
You can indeed replace the failed voltage with just another inverter.
Mine has run this way for 10 years. Mine was a 5 by the way. If it was one
side of the +/-15 I would say you want to replace both.
The entire switcher can be replaced with supplies that work off of 110 so
you can get rid of the 48 volt supplies.
Good luck
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Alex Pummer <alex at pcscons.com> wrote:

> power supply runs for a while, output current increases, but voltage stays
> correct -> problem is in the load circuit, load circuit working for a while
> load current increases, but it recovers after pause -> look for some
> tantalum capacitor in the load circuit, they recover often  a few times
> before they finally die,
> KJ6UHN
> Alex
>
> On 1/30/2016 6:21 PM, Artek Manuals wrote:
>
>> My Z3801A began to die over the last few days. It would work for an hour
>> or two then produce a receiver error and communications problems. Turn it
>> off, let it sit awhile, back on and it would start the survey and then
>> begin to recover. Tonight it finally went dead with high current on the
>> main input . The feed supply has a 2amp current limit so I have not blown
>> the two 3amp fuses
>>
>> I have a schematic of the supply reverse engineered by Stefan Hegnauere a
>> few years ago (thank you very much) and a limited theory of operation
>> description so I am not totally dead from a troubleshooting point of view
>> although if one of the DC-DC converters is dead then I will likely have to
>> scrap the supply
>>
>> Questions
>> 1) Any prior experience as where to look first I checked the
>> electrolytics and at first glance they seem fine, no loss of magic smoke or
>> any parts obviously hot or bulging. ESR 's look good on those
>> 2) Will this supply function unloaded while I troubleshoot it on the
>> bench out of the unit?
>> 3) Anyone tried independent powering the Z3801? looks like two 5V
>> supplies and +/- 15V..not hard to to do
>> 4) Anyone with a good supply from a parts unit want to part with same?
>>
>> Dave
>> NR1DX
>> ArtekManuals.com
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From opronningen at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 04:26:21 2016
From: opronningen at gmail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Ole_Petter_R=C3=B8nningen?=)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 10:26:21 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] MicroPulse L1/L2 Surveying Antenna
In-Reply-To: <56ACFE48.8040401@verizon.net>
References: <56ACFE48.8040401@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <6D999FD2-EFE6-4184-AFB8-20952C7A3018@gmail.com>

I recently also searched for details on a Micro Pulse antenna - I finally got a datasheet from PCTEL support, who (presumably) took over the Micro Pulse range at some point. 

> On 30. jan. 2016, at 19.17, Dan Rae <danrae at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any details on the above antenna?  Part Number is: 90LL122300-2 and it has a sticker on it saying it is a Global Hawk Asset, it has a big set of choke rings (about 35 cm across) and looks as though it might have been designed to be mounted flush on an aircraft body.
> 
> I'm doing a LH survey at present with it perched temporarily on a wall at the back of my house and it seems healthy at 5V supply.
> 
> Dan
> 
> ac6ao
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Jan 31 11:42:19 2016
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob Camp)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 11:42:19 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Z3801A Internal Power Supply issues
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAg_qdTwixF=5WceRqXkM2ojFp2ohw4Basgcbc2wcuCXkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <56AD6FB1.4070804@ArtekManuals.com> <56AD95E1.4070302@pcscons.com>
 <CAD2JfAg_qdTwixF=5WceRqXkM2ojFp2ohw4Basgcbc2wcuCXkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6150D674-4384-42CF-947D-D25E044CC384@n1k.org>

Hi

I had one that took out the internal fuse once every 3 to 5 years. After 
replacing the fuse 3 times, the supply died. Go figure … only 15 years or use.

Bob
> On Jan 31, 2016, at 9:11 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> As I mentioned in the another thread this week.
> You can indeed replace the failed voltage with just another inverter.
> Mine has run this way for 10 years. Mine was a 5 by the way. If it was one
> side of the +/-15 I would say you want to replace both.
> The entire switcher can be replaced with supplies that work off of 110 so
> you can get rid of the 48 volt supplies.
> Good luck
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Alex Pummer <alex at pcscons.com> wrote:
> 
>> power supply runs for a while, output current increases, but voltage stays
>> correct -> problem is in the load circuit, load circuit working for a while
>> load current increases, but it recovers after pause -> look for some
>> tantalum capacitor in the load circuit, they recover often  a few times
>> before they finally die,
>> KJ6UHN
>> Alex
>> 
>> On 1/30/2016 6:21 PM, Artek Manuals wrote:
>> 
>>> My Z3801A began to die over the last few days. It would work for an hour
>>> or two then produce a receiver error and communications problems. Turn it
>>> off, let it sit awhile, back on and it would start the survey and then
>>> begin to recover. Tonight it finally went dead with high current on the
>>> main input . The feed supply has a 2amp current limit so I have not blown
>>> the two 3amp fuses
>>> 
>>> I have a schematic of the supply reverse engineered by Stefan Hegnauere a
>>> few years ago (thank you very much) and a limited theory of operation
>>> description so I am not totally dead from a troubleshooting point of view
>>> although if one of the DC-DC converters is dead then I will likely have to
>>> scrap the supply
>>> 
>>> Questions
>>> 1) Any prior experience as where to look first I checked the
>>> electrolytics and at first glance they seem fine, no loss of magic smoke or
>>> any parts obviously hot or bulging. ESR 's look good on those
>>> 2) Will this supply function unloaded while I troubleshoot it on the
>>> bench out of the unit?
>>> 3) Anyone tried independent powering the Z3801? looks like two 5V
>>> supplies and +/- 15V..not hard to to do
>>> 4) Anyone with a good supply from a parts unit want to part with same?
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> NR1DX
>>> ArtekManuals.com
>>> 
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From eb4apl at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 11:32:36 2016
From: eb4apl at gmail.com (EB4APL)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 17:32:36 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] moon bounce for synchronization
In-Reply-To: <56AD617F.6000800@earthlink.net>
References: <20160131002800.0E4BA406061@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
 <56AD617F.6000800@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <56AE3724.5050009@gmail.com>

We were not measuring frequency but clock offset.  The frequency offset 
was estimated from the daily clock measurements.
If I remember correctly we got .1 uS accuracy.
We had several Rubidium, Cesium and later a H-maser frequency standards 
and we kept continuous recordings (strip charts) of the phase differences.
The transmitter precompensation kept care of combined Doppler (Moon 
motion and Earth rotation, which is the main component).  We operated at 
X band, the transmitting antenna had 85 ft or maybe less, I don't know 
exactly and the transmitter probably had 20 Kw.
By contrast the receiving antenna was small, I found at a picture 
(http://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/2009/07/19/goldstone-dsn-complex-tour/) of 
one that looks the same, at least the dish and pedestal are almost 
identical.
I forgot to say that this system was abandoned in favor of VLBI which 
gave more accuracy and a lot more useful info.  Both systems had the 
drawback that the monitoring was not continuous and needed a lot of 
resources at both ends.  By contrast Loran-C and GPS used existing 
infrastructure that was continuously available. BTW, I don't know how 
Loran-C stations were synchronized, this came granted by the Navy.
We also used once a traveling clock, it was an HP cesium, the one with a 
Patek-Philipe clock on the front. The crew who operated it told us funny 
stories about the clock traveling on commercial jet seats and afraid 
passengers asking  about this bomb looking device and being told that it 
was some kind of "atomic" thing.

Regards,
Ignacio



On 31/01/2016 a las 2:21, jimlux wrote:
> On 1/30/16 4:27 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>>
>> eb4apl at gmail.com said:
>>> Back to the Control Room you contact the transmitting station (I 
>>> think  it
>>> was DSS12) by voice to insure that they have the station manned and
>>> transmitting, and began to operate the "thing". The transmission were
>>> specific for each receiving station, because all the complex 
>>> processing  was
>>> done at the transmission end: the transmitting equipment accounted  
>>> for the
>>> instantaneous round trip distance between the transmitter and the 
>>> receiver
>>> via the moon and continuously adjusted the modulating code "early" 
>>> in order
>>> to to be received on time.  The equipment also  introduced a one 
>>> microsecond
>>> shift each second. The receiver had a  correlator whose output went 
>>> to an HP
>>> strip chart recorder which draw  the correlator output in one 
>>> channel and a
>>> PPS with a minute mark in the  second.
>>
>> What sort of frequency accuracy were you after?
>>
>> Did somebody have to correct for the Doppler due to the rotation of 
>> the Earth?
>
> I'm pretty sure they did. Ignacio can say for sure.
>
> We precompensate on transmit to get the signal to arrive at the 
> spacecraft at its "best lock frequency". Or, actually slightly off, 
> then we ramp through the BLF so the receiver can acquire the carrier. 
> The receiver bandwidth might be as narrow as a few 10s of Hz, so you 
> don't want to be too far off or ramp too fast.
>
> On S-band (2-2.3GHz), the earth rotation Doppler is about 2-3kHz. 
> (0.5km/sec), depending on latitude and where the Moon is in the sky.
>
> If you're doing the Moon, you put its motion via a SPK file into the 
> algorithm.  In 1970, that would have been a bit more tedious<grin>. 
> With the moon, it depends on what part of the moon you're aiming at, too.
>
> Last year (March 3rd), I was doing an experiment bouncing a DSN signal 
> from Goldstone off the moon and receiving it at JPL. As I recall, the 
> "spot" on the moon was about 800km in diameter. For what it's worth, 
> you don't need a particularly good receiver when your transmitter is 
> 20 kilowatts into a 34m antenna (DSS 24).
>
> Since our transmit and receive site were pretty close together, the 
> Doppler of earth motion wasn't much, but there was Lunar Doppler, on 
> top of that, there's libration.
>
>
> Chuck Counselman did a bunch of work with VLBI type techniques using 
> various ground stations around the world to determine where things 
> (like the lunar rover) were on the surface of the moon.
> _______________________________________________


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From artgodwin at gmail.com  Sun Jan 31 16:43:25 2016
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 2016 21:43:25 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP Z3801A Internal Power Supply issues
In-Reply-To: <6150D674-4384-42CF-947D-D25E044CC384@n1k.org>
References: <56AD6FB1.4070804@ArtekManuals.com> <56AD95E1.4070302@pcscons.com>
 <CAD2JfAg_qdTwixF=5WceRqXkM2ojFp2ohw4Basgcbc2wcuCXkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <6150D674-4384-42CF-947D-D25E044CC384@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CALiMYrtxRbq-JxVGDxSL_MBZtcECUfy77L3sxFbd0tE9nuBXCQ@mail.gmail.com>

A tant melted on one of my KS-246361 boxes (I guess they're a similar age,
possibly even the same source). The only one so far to have trouble. It
failed in such a way that it continued to smoke and load up the power
supply,

The current drawn from the no-name laptop power supply was still well
within spec, at least by the time I post-mortem'ed it. But that melted too,
and took out three levels of circuit breakers. The KS-24361 worked
perfectly after replacing the cap.




On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I had one that took out the internal fuse once every 3 to 5 years. After
> replacing the fuse 3 times, the supply died. Go figure … only 15 years or
> use.
>
> Bob
> > On Jan 31, 2016, at 9:11 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > As I mentioned in the another thread this week.
> > You can indeed replace the failed voltage with just another inverter.
> > Mine has run this way for 10 years. Mine was a 5 by the way. If it was
> one
> > side of the +/-15 I would say you want to replace both.
> > The entire switcher can be replaced with supplies that work off of 110 so
> > you can get rid of the 48 volt supplies.
> > Good luck
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Alex Pummer <alex at pcscons.com> wrote:
> >
> >> power supply runs for a while, output current increases, but voltage
> stays
> >> correct -> problem is in the load circuit, load circuit working for a
> while
> >> load current increases, but it recovers after pause -> look for some
> >> tantalum capacitor in the load circuit, they recover often  a few times
> >> before they finally die,
> >> KJ6UHN
> >> Alex
> >>
> >> On 1/30/2016 6:21 PM, Artek Manuals wrote:
> >>
> >>> My Z3801A began to die over the last few days. It would work for an
> hour
> >>> or two then produce a receiver error and communications problems. Turn
> it
> >>> off, let it sit awhile, back on and it would start the survey and then
> >>> begin to recover. Tonight it finally went dead with high current on the
> >>> main input . The feed supply has a 2amp current limit so I have not
> blown
> >>> the two 3amp fuses
> >>>
> >>> I have a schematic of the supply reverse engineered by Stefan
> Hegnauere a
> >>> few years ago (thank you very much) and a limited theory of operation
> >>> description so I am not totally dead from a troubleshooting point of
> view
> >>> although if one of the DC-DC converters is dead then I will likely
> have to
> >>> scrap the supply
> >>>
> >>> Questions
> >>> 1) Any prior experience as where to look first I checked the
> >>> electrolytics and at first glance they seem fine, no loss of magic
> smoke or
> >>> any parts obviously hot or bulging. ESR 's look good on those
> >>> 2) Will this supply function unloaded while I troubleshoot it on the
> >>> bench out of the unit?
> >>> 3) Anyone tried independent powering the Z3801? looks like two 5V
> >>> supplies and +/- 15V..not hard to to do
> >>> 4) Anyone with a good supply from a parts unit want to part with same?
> >>>
> >>> Dave
> >>> NR1DX
> >>> ArtekManuals.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>