[time-nuts] Discussion of precise time and frequency measurements

Ronald Held ronaldheld at gmail.com
Tue Dec 18 01:05:12 UTC 2007


I was just reminded by James Maynard that through my CDMA input to the
Endrun Precis Cf unit, I should be within 10 microsecond of UTC using
GPS indirectly. How much more accurate over time would the GPSDO
option be for me, assuming I have a strong and steady enough signal?
                                       Ronald

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: time-nuts-request at febo.com <time-nuts-request at febo.com>
Date: Dec 17, 2007 6:50 PM
Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 62
To: I was just remtime-nuts at febo.com


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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Antennas in apartments (Neon John)
  2. Re: Antennas in apartments (Chuck Harris)
  3. Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement (Ronald Held)
  4. Re: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
     (Michael J. Dyer)
  5. Re: Antennas in apartments (Neon John)
  6. HP5359A non-linearities (Magnus Danielson)
  7. Re: Antennas in apartments (Richard W. Solomon)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:25:08 -0500
From: Neon John <jgd at johngsbbq.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antennas in apartments
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
       <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <54cdm3lhc1p89mbkgmqm18k5i8lnnu7afl at 4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:57:49 -0800, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:


>Talk to your building superintendent.  Offer to provide NTP service to the
>whole complex if he will help you setup a GPS antenna.

I can see it now..... "Duh, how's this NTP stuff gonna help me unstop
the toilet in
23?" :-)

>
>What do people who want satellite TV do?

Federal law says that landlords cannot prohibit satellite TV dishes.
Another one of
those "best laws money can buy".  The implication for a solution to
the GPS antenna
problem is fairly obvious.....

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made with meat?




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:43:41 -0500
From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antennas in apartments
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
       <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <4766C35D.4060505 at erols.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Neon John wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:57:49 -0800, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Talk to your building superintendent.  Offer to provide NTP service to the
>> whole complex if he will help you setup a GPS antenna.
>
> I can see it now..... "Duh, how's this NTP stuff gonna help me unstop the toilet in
> 23?" :-)
>
>> What do people who want satellite TV do?
>
> Federal law says that landlords cannot prohibit satellite TV dishes. Another one of
> those "best laws money can buy".  The implication for a solution to the GPS antenna
> problem is fairly obvious.....

I think you need to read the law a little bit more carefully!

What the law says, as I read it, is that you can put up radio,
TV, or satellite antennas on your own property, regardless of
covenants, home owners association rules, or zoning ordinances.
But, if the property isn't yours, or isn't available for your
exclusive use, it is up to the owner (or controlling authority)
to decide whether you may or may not.

The FCC's website has a Q&A section where they specifically answer
a question about putting up an antenna that extends beyond the
apartment/townhouse deck into the air space.  They say that the
law only controls what is allowed within the confines of the deck,
and not what is allowed in the air space beyond the deck.

-Chuck



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:14:52 -0500
From: "Ronald Held" <ronaldheld at gmail.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] Discussion of precise time and frequency
       measurement
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Message-ID:
       <9a86fb0e0712171314w521d281crd50d17dfe9b8da9a at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Since the moving option is out, perhaps I need to investigate whether
I currently can get any inside or outside signal. Is ther3=e an
inexpensive way given that I do not have any circuit assemble skills?
The complex will allow dishes as long as the are completely inside the
balcony(I speculate that it is at the behest of the local cable
company). I do not recall seeing any dishes on building in my complex.
If I can get a signal inside or outside, what then?
                                              Ronald

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: time-nuts-request at febo.com <time-nuts-request at febo.com>
Date: Dec 17, 2007 12:00 PM
Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 61
To: time-nuts at febo.com


Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to
      time-nuts at febo.com

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You can reach the person managing the list at
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..."


Today's Topics:

1. Re: re low noise regulators (Bruce Griffiths)
2. Re: re low noise regulators (Magnus Danielson)
3. Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 56 (James Maynard)
4. Re: Antennas in apartments (Hal Murray)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:19:05 +1300
From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] re low noise regulators
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
      <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <4765A459.5030902 at xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

SAIDJACK at aol.com wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>
> The capacitors' microphonic sensitivity may actuallyy be more of a factor
> here.
>
Are electrolytics microphonic?
Ferroelectric (X7R, Z5U,Y5V, X5R, etc but not NP0/C0G) ceramic caps are
microphonic
>
>
>> It still helps to have as low a noise as possible before using  such
>> brute force filtering to get that extra few dB of noise  reduction.
>>
>
> It's not just a few dB, it's -3dB at 17Hz already, and that drops  at ~-20dB
> per decade. At 170Hz it could theoretically give -23dB already,  or in other
> words if the noise floor was entirely due to the supply voltage  noise, then
> the difference would be between say -140dBc/Hz and about  -160dBc/Hz at 170Hz -
> this could be a very significant improvement.
>
> You are absolutely right, it is very difficult to get low noise  <10Hz.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
Bruce



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:50:44 +0100 (CET)
From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] re low noise regulators
To: time-nuts at febo.com, bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz
Message-ID: <20071216.235044.1957269467.cfmd at bredband.net>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii

From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] re low noise regulators
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 11:19:05 +1300
Message-ID: <4765A459.5030902 at xtra.co.nz>

> SAIDJACK at aol.com wrote:
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > The capacitors' microphonic sensitivity may actuallyy be more of a factor
> > here.
> >
> Are electrolytics microphonic?
> Ferroelectric (X7R, Z5U,Y5V, X5R, etc but not NP0/C0G) ceramic caps are
> microphonic

All caps is more or less microphonic. Even a pair of plates with vacuum between
them are microphonic. However, the higher capacitivity of the dielectrum, the
higher microphonic sensitivity can you expect. You can as always reduce the
microphonic aspect through mechanical design, including wise use of symmetry,
but the effect will always be there. The point being, the effect is always
there, but the coupling degree may be stronger or weaker.

Traditionally electrolytics have not been the main concern thought. But they
are not always the best choice for many other reasons, as you are fully aware.

Cheers,
Magnus



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 18:08:12 -0800
From: "James Maynard" <james.h.maynard at usa.net>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 56
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <709LLqcHm6314S07.1197857292 at cmsweb07.cms.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1



------ Original Message ------
>Received: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:53:00 PM PST
>From: "Ronald Held" <ronaldheld at gmail.com>
>To: time-nuts at febo.com
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 41, Issue 56
>
>My apartment is in a reinforced concrete building, not near the roof.
>Many years ago I tried a Garmin handheld and could not get a lock.
>Recently, I tried a GPS watch near the window, and could not get e
>lock, even though it did lock up outside(cold) after a few minutes.
>that is why i do not think I can use a GPS disciplining option.
>  Since my unit already gets no worse than 1 millisecond when locked
>up, i would want no worse than 1 microsecond in phase over long
>periods of time. What non GPS options are there with the electronic
>building skills I do not have?
>
Does a cell phone work in your apartment? If so, you might consider
an oscillator that gets its frequency discipline indirectly:
GPS receiver disciplines oscillator at cell phone tower,
then CDMA cell phone network disciplines oscillator in your
apartment.

See <http://www.endruntechnologies.com/frequency-standard-lowcost.htm>
for an example.

James Maynard, K7KK
Salem, Oregon, USA







------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:57:49 -0800
From: Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antennas in apartments
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
      <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <20071217065750.CCE78BE32 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


> i  thought of tha balcony option. The balcony as an overhang which
> effectively  blots out the other half of ths sky not covered by the
> building. I cannot  hang any antenna over the railing or on it(in my
> lease and enofrce;I  asked), plus there are birds and squirrels which
> would get into it. Any other suggestions?

You said " I cannot  hang any antenna over the railing or on it".  Does that
mean you can put things out there as long as they are not visible from the
outside?  Try it just inside/below the railing.


Talk to your building superintendent.  Offer to provide NTP service to the
whole complex if he will help you setup a GPS antenna.

What do people who want satellite TV do?

I like the hide-it-in-a-bird-feeder suggestion.  Are plants and bird feeders
prohibited?



--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.






------------------------------

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:08:24 -0500
From: "Michael J. Dyer" <michael.dyer at digitaleragroup.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Discussion of precise time and frequency
       measurement
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
       <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <020701c840f9$58c3a3f0$0a4aebd0$@dyer at digitaleragroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Here's a link to the FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

The antenna type appears to be covered by the rule but then subsequently
excluded in the question on 'fixed wireless signals'.  In the past I've
provided my association with a copy of the FAQ and they didn't have the
technical knowledge to spot this exception and subsequently approved the
antenna (after a quick pass by their lawyer).

A second issue is that the FCC says that the rules does NOT apply to an
antenna that extends out beyond the balcony or patio (this is usually
considered to be in a common area).

It sounds like they've already gone through the rule/FAQ and understand
their rights...

//MDYER





-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Ronald Held
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 4:15 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement

Since the moving option is out, perhaps I need to investigate whether
I currently can get any inside or outside signal. Is ther3=e an
inexpensive way given that I do not have any circuit assemble skills?
The complex will allow dishes as long as the are completely inside the
balcony(I speculate that it is at the behest of the local cable
company). I do not recall seeing any dishes on building in my complex.
If I can get a signal inside or outside, what then?
                                              Ronald





------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:31:36 -0500
From: Neon John <jgd at johngsbbq.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antennas in apartments
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
       <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID: <gotdm31b57ulhn9h7c1jjubja1okv2c701 at 4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 13:43:41 -0500, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:

>Neon John wrote:
>> Federal law says that landlords cannot prohibit satellite TV
dishes. Another one of
>> those "best laws money can buy".  The implication for a solution to
the GPS antenna
>> problem is fairly obvious.....
>
>I think you need to read the law a little bit more carefully!

Should have figured you'd be the one to make that kind of pedantic reply.

>What the law says, as I read it, is that you can put up radio,
>TV, or satellite antennas on your own property, regardless of
>covenants, home owners association rules, or zoning ordinances.
>But, if the property isn't yours, or isn't available for your
>exclusive use, it is up to the owner (or controlling authority)
>to decide whether you may or may not.

I'm neither interested in parsing individual sentences in a regulation (I hire a
lawyer to do that for me) nor debating this guy's controlling status.
As a landlord,
I've been told that if I want to avoid a slew of legal fees and hassles, let the
tenants put up their dishes as they wish as long as the placement is
reasonable.  As
an observer, I notice that most every apartment complex I've observed
follows that
same guidance.

I'll rephrase.  "The implication for a solution to the GPS antenna
problem is fairly
obvious 99.999% of the time.....  Put the dish up, strap on a GPS
receiver and see
what happens.  Sheesh.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I like you ... you remind me of me when I was young and stupid.




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 00:49:12 +0100 (CET)
From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5359A non-linearities
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Message-ID: <20071218.004912.692035820.cfmd at bredband.net>
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii

Fellow time-nuts!

I have been making some measurements on the HP5359A using the DTS2070C.
I am adjusting the period and measure that.

Initially it is apparent that the HP5359A does not hit the mark, but it is
also clear that the CAL button does indeed make a difference.
It is also very interesting to notice how the jitter changes between the
different position as well as the shift in period time.

I also observed blind spots where step changes does not change period time.
They also had a very much lower jitter, 12-14 ps compared to 45-50 ps.

Should say that I haven't made the full performance check or even attempted
doing any calibration. As I found the blind spot at 899,80-899,85 ns. It is
just above 89 steps of 10,078125 ns we have 896,953125 ns, so it is early in
the load-cycle. Some 56-57 steps of about 200. Got to investigate what happends
with the DAC level and also look at the level.

I have only been fooling around, but if done properly one should span the
period step by step and measure the actual period and jitter. Should be
interesting to see how the pattern of the analog delay reoccur on the regular
10,078125 ns interval.

Cheers,
Magnus



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 16:50:03 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: "Richard W. Solomon" <w1ksz at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antennas in apartments
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
       <time-nuts at febo.com>
Message-ID:
       <9500318.1197935403578.JavaMail.root at elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

If you have purchased, leased or rented property and there were CC&R's included
in the transaction and in those CC&R's is buried a prohibition on outside
antennas, you are out of luck. You entered into a contract and the CC&R's are
a part of that contract.
In fact, the FCC has stated that in the case of CC&R's prohibiting Ham Radio
antennae, PRB-1 does NOT apply.
That being said, I go for the age old approach that asking forgiveness is
better than asking permission. Put up as small an antenna as you can, some are
only 2-3" in diameter and tell the landlord, if he asks, the use is classified.

73, Dick, W1KSZ/7

-----Original Message-----
>From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
>Sent: Dec 17, 2007 11:43 AM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Antennas in apartments
>
>Neon John wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:57:49 -0800, Hal Murray
<hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Talk to your building superintendent.  Offer to provide NTP service to the
>>> whole complex if he will help you setup a GPS antenna.
>>
>> I can see it now..... "Duh, how's this NTP stuff gonna help me
unstop the toilet in
>> 23?" :-)
>>
>>> What do people who want satellite TV do?
>>
>> Federal law says that landlords cannot prohibit satellite TV
dishes. Another one of
>> those "best laws money can buy".  The implication for a solution to
the GPS antenna
>> problem is fairly obvious.....
>
>I think you need to read the law a little bit more carefully!
>
>What the law says, as I read it, is that you can put up radio,
>TV, or satellite antennas on your own property, regardless of
>covenants, home owners association rules, or zoning ordinances.
>But, if the property isn't yours, or isn't available for your
>exclusive use, it is up to the owner (or controlling authority)
>to decide whether you may or may not.
>
>The FCC's website has a Q&A section where they specifically answer
>a question about putting up an antenna that extends beyond the
>apartment/townhouse deck into the air space.  They say that the
>law only controls what is allowed within the confines of the deck,
>and not what is allowed in the air space beyond the deck.
>
>-Chuck
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.




------------------------------

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