[time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter
EWKehren at aol.com
EWKehren at aol.com
Sat Jul 25 14:34:06 UTC 2009
Bruce, what I envision is two identical channels made up of offset
isolation amplifier, mixer/filter/amplifier and zero detector/counter module. The
Isolation and Mixer modules would be copies of the NIST circuit using later
components. The two counter modules talk to a separate counter/u processor
through opto isolators. The fifth counter is part of that module and uses
info from the two counter modules to also determine the phase difference
between the two oscillators being monitored. This seventh module also handles
the USB interface. If you want to I will redraw the block diagram and a
detailed circuit of the counters and send it to you direct. Bert
In a message dated 7/25/2009 9:37:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes:
Bert
If you intend to use a USB interface then its probably essential to use
an optical isolator or equivalent between the zero crossing detector
(ZCD) output and the counter input to minimize potential low frequency
ground loop problems. JPL found that low frequency ground loops limit
the performance if the zero crossing detector outputs aren't isolated
from each other.
A resolution of better than 1E-14/tau should be relatively easy to
achieve with a good ZCD design.
Maintaining such resolution for long tau will be dependent on the
stability of the mixer and ZCD temperatures.
Mixer drift can be as large as 10ps/C or more at 10MHz.
The tempco of the low pass filter components in the first few stages of
the ZCD will dominate the ZCD phase shift tempco.
Using a linear amplifier and filter in front of a zero crossing detector
built into the counter is not the best way to implement such a system.
The amplifier filter limiter chain should be designed to suit the offset
frequency.
The goal is to increase the zero crossing slope to a point where the
noise of the counter input circuitry doesnt contribute significant jitter.
To do this linear amplification is counterproductive, every stage of
slope amplification needs to incorporate a low pass filter and clamping
to reduce the output noise whilst increasing the output slew rate. As
long as the signal level is sufficient to ensure that each stage is
driven well into limiting, linear amplification serves little purpose
other than increasing the noise by more than necessary.
Bruce
EWKehren at aol.com wrote:
> Bruce, Thanks for your comments. It is my opinion that a dual mixer
system
> can be built including five counters for a material cost of less than $
> 200. The computer interface would be USB. My challenge is the
programming of
> two u processors and the software that need to be written for the
computer.
> How ever there is so much expertise in this group to make it happen as
a
> joint effort, if the interest is there. By integrating a dual channel
counter
> with each mixer, focusing on a zero crossing detector that is part of
the
> counter section and isolated from the mixer/filter/amplifier it should
be
> possible to realize better than 10 E 14. The counters would count 100
MHz.
> $200 would cover 7 PC boars, 7 Alu enclosures and all electronic
components
> if 100 units get build. The price break will be in the PC board cost.
> Offset oscillator obviously would not be included.
> As you pointed out there is room for improvement on the zero detector. I
> have done the counters on an other project and if there is interest I
will
> gladly share my information and thoughts.
> Bert Kehren
>
>
> In a message dated 7/24/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes:
>
> EWKehren at aol.com wrote:
>
>> On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the
following.
>>
> In
>
>> my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10
>>
> MHz
>
>> signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7
>> signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting
it
>>
> with a
>
>> counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10
E
>>
> 16.
>
>> Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and
>>
> trigger
>
>> error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want
the
>>
> two
>
>> phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of
>>
> the
>
>> offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring
the
>>
> time
>
>> difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to
>>
> go.
>
>> I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for
the
>>
>
>
>> info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would
>>
> appreciate
>
>> any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more
>> effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate.
>> Bert Kehren WB5MZJ
>> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2
>>
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>
>> steps!
>>
>>
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> Bert
>
> With a classical dual mixer system, the only useful measurement is the
> time difference between the zero crossings of the 2 beat frequencies.
> The limiters used distort the signal and amplify the zero crossing slew
> rate, thereby precluding meaningful measures of anything else but the
> zero crossing times.
> Time stamping the zero crossing times for each channel may be more
> useful rather than just measuring the time differences.
>
> The zero crossing circuit employed by NIST is far from optimum (Oliver
> Collins paper on the design of low jitter hard limiters wasn't published
> until May 1996), some of the JPL designs are better but are still some
> way from optimum.
> The timing jitter and phase drift of the ZCD output limits performance.
> JPL achieved a zero crossing jitter of around 40ns in their 1Hz beat
> frequency ZCDs, it should be possible to reduce this by a factor of 3
or
> so.
> There later DMTD systems use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so
with
> a 100MHz mixer input frequency.
> The zero crossing detector filter component tempcos will limit the phase
> shift stability for larger tau as will the mixer phase shift tempco (~
> ps/C).
> It is also essential to avoid low frequency ground loops that affect the
> 2 zero crossing detectors.
> The mixer IF port grounds need to be low frequency isolated from the RF
> grounds of the other 2 ports.
> One needs to know the phase detector output noise in the flicker region
> in order to optimise the zero crossing detector design.
> Unfortunately phase detector flicker noise specifications don't appear
> on the datasheet so one has to measure it.
> One can do this using a low noise preamp for a sound card or a spectrum
> analyser.
> Using an apprpriate mixer IF port termination (a 50 ohm or even 500 ohm
> resistive termination may be far from optimum) will affect the beat
> frequency signal jitter.
>
> If one eliminates the limiters (however the distortion probably needs to
> be kept down) then, in principle a COSTAS receiver could be used to
> measure the phase shift between the beat frequencies independently of
> the individual beat frequencies and proximity to a beat frequency zero
> crossing. However ADC noise will limit the performance unless one uses 2
> or more ADCs per beat frequency and uses correlation techniques to
> eliminate the ADC noise.
>
> Bruce
>
>
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