[time-nuts] LPRO101 Lamp Exciter Frequency

Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER sam at canardpc.com
Sun Oct 25 21:01:04 UTC 2009


First link with "PE1FBO" on Google : 
http://radcomms.net/EFRATOM%20LPRO%20101%20Repair%20Guide.pdf

;)

-----Message d'origine-----
De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la
part de Doug G4DZU
Envoyé : dimanche 25 octobre 2009 21:51
À : Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Objet : Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 Lamp Exciter Frequency

Hi,

One of my LPRO101's also won't lock, you mention a repair guide by PE1FBO.

I've search the web and can't find a source for this, is it possible you
could advise me of it's location.

best 73s
Doug
G4DZU

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: 25 October 2009 19:37
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 Lamp Exciter Frequency


Roberto Barrios wrote:
> Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:42:08 +1300
> From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 Lamp Exciter Frequency
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <4AE3ACF0.3080303 at xtra.co.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Roberto Barrios wrote:
>
>>> Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:24:38 +1300
>>> From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 Lamp Exciter Frequency
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> <>
>>> Message-ID: <4AE37096.5030400 at xtra.co.nz>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Roberto Barrios wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2009 09:35:03 +1300
>>>> From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO101 Lamp Exciter Frequency
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>>> Message-ID: <4AE21377.7070800 at xtra.co.nz>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>>
>>>> Roberto Barrios wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got an LPRO101 that refuses to lock and you sure will be of great
help. These devices are quite cheap but I'm trying to learn in the repair
process.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've followed PE1FBO's repair guide and everything noted there seems
ok. I could not find a single suspect component. These are some notes I've
taken on the unit after a 20 minutes warmup:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> - Power input current during warmup is 1.2A and 0.4A after it.
>>>>>
>>>>> - 10Mhz out swings between 10.000191 and 9.999875, taking 40s to go up
and 60s to go down in freq.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Lamp voltage is a steady 6.7V.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The lamp glows a few seconds after powering the unit.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Placing a pickup look over the PCB, the analyzer shows peaks all over
the place up to 2.5Ghz (it's limit), so the thing is alive.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is one unexpected thing I found... The frequency of the RF power
going into the lamp is 157.3Mhz, very stable. From the repair guide, it
should be 70Mhz. I checked it with everything on hand (scope, counter, spec.
analyzer) and there is no doubt about it. A clean sine of about 16V peak to
peak, at 157.3Mhz can be found at the output (source) of the BF160 MOSFET.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could this unexpectedly high exciter frequency cause the inability to
lock or should I look somewhere else?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The deviation from the expected 70Mhz seems too big to me, but should
I tweak the oscillator tuning capacitor (C901) to try to lower the
frequency?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The oscillator is a Clapp oscillator and the (0.6-4.5pF) series tuning
>>>> cap has a large influence on the frequency.
>>>> Unless the coil has shorted turns or another component has gone open
>>>> circuit its seems likely that the oscillator has been mistuned.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Roberto EB4EQA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for taking the time to look at this and answer my message.
Thank you for pointing to the oscillator type, thanks to that, I've made
some calculations. I've measured the inductace of the coil and it turns out
to be 460nH. Given the capacitor values, doing the math, the oscillator is
tunable from about 129Mhz to 310Mhz by adjusting capacitor C901. I've found
that there is about 157pF where the 82pF capacitor is, but that has very
little effect on tuning range. I've tried adjusting C901 and the lower I can
get is 125Mhz, as expected.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could the correct frequency be in that range, and not 70Mhz ???? If you
confirm it should be 70Mhz, I'll add some capacitance to 901 to get the
oscillator down again to 70Mhz. About 90pF should do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could this actually be the problem in the unit (the lamp glows...)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you & best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Roberto, EB4EQA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Roberto
>>>
>>> Your lamp exciter differs from the one attached.
>>> Unless a fixed capacitor is faulty you shouldn't need to change it.
>>>
>>> In principle it doesn't matter too much what the lamp excitation
>>> frequency is as long as the coupling coil is suitably proportioned.
>>> If the oscillator operates at a frequency other than the design value
>>> the coupling to the lamp may be reduced.
>>>
>>> It would appear that the design frequency differs from that in the
>>> repair manual (unless the coil is faulty).
>>>
>>> The fact that the 10MHz oscillator frequency ramps up and down suggests
>>> that there is something wrong with the frequency lock circuit.
>>> Try looking at the photocell signal processing chain.
>>>
>>> Is the microwave signal actually being modulated?
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> Roberto
>
>> Hi Bruce, Antonio,
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce, you are right, there should be no need to modify the original
design. The attached schematic is the one I have printed and it faithfully
represents the actual circuit in the LPRO I have. C14 is actually 82pF (I
took it out to measure it), but capacitance from E3 to ground is 157pF. The
added capacitance must come from the line going to R13. I can keep
unsoldering components until I uncover where that added capacitance comes
from but looking at the Clapp oscillator formula, it should'n make a big
difference in the oscillating frequency.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> How did you measure the capacitance from E3 to ground?
> What was the measurement frequency?
> NB there is a series resonant circuit between E3 and ground.
> At low frequencies you should measure the capacitance of the tuning cap
> plus the strays.
> Near tank resonance the equivalent capacitance will be much larger.
> Also you will have the input capacitance of the MOSFET connected across
C14.
>
>> Antonio, I'm 100% sure I'm not looking at the second harmonic. In the
spectrum analyzer, coupling with a small loop, I can clearly see the 60Mhz
signal coming from the physics unit, but absolutely nothing at 70Mhz,
nowhere. And a big peak at 157Mhz clearly located at the RF MOSFET / lamp
location. If I load lightly the gate of the MOSFET, that peaks falls into
the noise, so it is the fundamental frequency. It's harmonics are indeed
there also. (Am I missing something ?)
>>
>>
>>
>> I've measured the temperatures of both the heated lamp and the cell
assemblies and they are correct, 100? and 70? respectively.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've carefully removed the lamp and it looks OK. The coil has perfect
geometry and the wire is mint. Something I've noticed under the microscope
is an almost invisible crack in the transparent plastic disc located between
the lamp and the cell assemblies, going vertical from top to bottom. I
wonder if that is normal, but since it is completely invisible when looking
perpendicular to the disc, and the housing is not sealed, I don't see why it
should have any effect. (Am I right ?)
>>
>>
>>
>> I tried looking at the photocell output directly on the scope but I see
only what it looks like weak noise, which I think it's more or less normal
(Or should I see something clearly?) Bruce, I've got no schematic for
anything beyond the photocell, it will be difficult to follow the path of
that signal...).
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Even when it locks the transmission dip will be much less than 1% so
> most of the photocell signal will be noise.
> When locked modulation frequency component seen by the synchronous
> detector will be very small.
> Without a circuit for the synchronous detector and preceding amplifier
> troubleshooting this part of the circuit will be difficult.
>
> What does the waveform at test point 5 look like?
>
>
>> Yes, after fiddling, I always close the enclosure and pray for the 10Mhz
output to stop dancing...
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll see tomorrow what I can find regarding the modulation of the
microwave signal. Anything else to look for?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you guys for your comments and guidance.
>>
>> Roberto, EB4EQA
>>
>>
>>
> Bruce
>
>  Hi Bruce,
>
>
>
> Having no other thing to try, I managed to lower the exciter frequency to
70Mhz, just to find that the lamp won't ignite at that frequency. Anything
lower than about 100Mhz causes no light output at all. I found that trimming
the capacitor to maximum capacitance causes the frequency to lower to about
120Mhz, and the LAMP V reading at that point is maximum. If the capacitor
was bigger, and the frequency could be lowered even more, LAMP V would
increase further. I though that this capacitor was to be tuned for maximum
lamp output, but it isn't. I left it more or less where it was at the
begining, about 140Mhz. Everything seems to be fine, it would be great to
confirm if other LPROs work at 70Mhz or actually at 140, like mine.
>
>
>
> At TP5 there is only DC component, 7.26V. Not very complex for a
waveform... Are we on track? What should appear there?
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Roberto, EB4EQA
>
>
Ciao Roberto

Since the repair manual shows a waveform at this point which appears to
be a sinusoidal modulation multiplied by a square wave whose transitions
are in phase quadrature with the sine wave, perhaps this is the output
of the synchronous detector before filtering.

Naively one might expect some modulation evident at this point even when
the microwave frequency is detuned??
However the rubidium cell transmission may not exhibit any detectable
modulation if the probe frequency is too far from the resonance.

Can you detect any modulation of the microwave signal?
Can you measure the frequency of this signal?

Bruce


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