[time-nuts] Loran C sounds

[paul swed]

I agree with many of these comments.
I guess LORAN C for timing will never die for me.
Now that I have the LORAN C simulator and it keeps the timing receivers
happy.
Granted the main reference is "me" but I have to say the HP5065 seems more
usable then wwvb. And very inexpensive compared to the LORAN C system. ;-)
I am using the 59300 chain (Canadian) for now. But I am ready to shift in
Sept when they shut down.

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 7:57 AM, Bob Camp <lists at cq.nu> wrote:

> Hi
>
> I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a
> while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died
> two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They
> don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen
> to is not a backup.
>
> Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped
> navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade
> to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place
>  after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran
> drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will
> always make a low use system like Loran expensive.
>
> The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball.
> Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've
> handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return ....
>
> The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have
> three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for
> them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA,
> lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch.
>
> Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have
> used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav
> system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav
> system.
>
> Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they
> turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of
> timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a
> backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and
> failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and
> again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with
> that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that
> decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or
> months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would
> take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes.
>
> We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a
> look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary
> as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues ....
>
> Bob
>
> On Feb 12, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Sykes, Stephan wrote:
>
> > What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
> > on?  Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.
> >
> > Steve KD2OM
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Bill Hawkins
> > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04
> > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
> >
> >
> > Two things:
> >
> > 1. The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to
> > examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and
> > power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place
> > after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up.
> >
> > The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at
> > peak activity.
> >
> > 2. Its all about $$$$$$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions
> > based
> > on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy
> > lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with
> > other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The
> > principle
> > is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs
> > less
> > per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery.
> >
> > Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those
> > Impossible
> > People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in
> > our
> > skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to
> > female
> > fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to
> > deal
> > with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over.
> > Don't
> > try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds
> > threatening.
> >
> > Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an
> > ancient
> > lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays
> > dominance
> > games? Almost any politician you care to name.
> >
> > So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why
> > engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the
> > first
> > time.
> >
> > Darn, the soap box broke.
> >
> > Bill Hawkins
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: paul swed
> > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM
> >
> > Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
> > As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
> > before Oct.
> > Its all about $$$$$$
> >
> >
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>
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