[time-nuts] How does one actually do Allan variation graphs?

John Miles jmiles at pop.net
Mon Nov 15 04:15:04 UTC 2010


Bob's checklist is a good one, all right.  It is important to get a solid
working example because they are quite challenging to troubleshoot and
calibrate.

The only problem with the 5370A as far as I'm aware is the reduced
reliability caused by the larger number of socketed ROM chips.

It seems that many, if not most, 5370s were used with external 10 MHz
references.  If you're patient, you can wait for one to show up on eBay with
a display that is blank except for one bright LED.  Buy it cheap, and flip
the external-reference switch back to internal-reference mode when you get
it.  Easy "fix!"

-- john, KE5FX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of paul swed
> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 8:01 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How does one actually do Allan variation
> graphs?
>
>
> Really good advice on what to checkout.
> 5370s are the devil to fix if somethings wrong such as jitter.
> Good luck.
> Paul
>
> On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Bob Camp <lists at rtty.us> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Like a lot of stuff, the going price for these has dropped.
> They get less
> > and less respect every day ...
> >
> > One thing that may be specific to me - I do not consider a
> 5370A to be any
> > more or less valuable than a 5370B. They both do pretty much
> the same thing.
> > The 5370B might have fewer hours on it, it might not. On average 5370A
> > prices seem to run slightly higher than 5370B prices. Why is a
> mystery to
> > me.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:57 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, Bob
> > >
> > > He's asking $400 but I can tell by the look in his eye that he'll take
> > > substantially less.
> > >
> > > He's a lousy poker player, too...
> > >
> > > I asked him to turn it on about 0900 this morning and I'm
> going over in
> > an
> > > hour or so to check it out.
> > >
> > > Thanks again,
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Bob Camp <lists at rtty.us> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi
> > >>
> > >> Assuming:
> > >>
> > >> 1) All the knobs and switches are intact and working
> > >> 2) All the led's in the display work
> > >> 3) All the alarm and indicator LED's work
> > >> 4) The input amps are good
> > >> 5) All the connectors are intact
> > >> 6) The OCXO is good / on frequency
> > >> 7) It passes the diags
> > >> 8) Jitter is down below 100 ps ( should be below 40)
> > >> 9) You can check all this out before purchace. Let the beast
> warm up for
> > at
> > >> least an hour before you check it.
> > >>
> > >> Something in the $180 to $260 range is probably fair depending on
> > >> cosmetics. You might start out at $150 in order to
> compromise at $200. I
> > >> certainly would not pay over $300. I know the list sounds a bit long,
> > but
> > >> I've seen 5370's with problems in each of those areas. Pretty much
> > anything
> > >> damaged / non-functional would knock a pretty good chunk off
> the price.
> > >>
> > >> Bob
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Nov 14, 2010, at 11:29 AM, William H. Fite wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Gentlemen,
> > >>>
> > >>> What is a reasonable price for a 5370A?  Local guy here is trying to
> > hawk
> > >>> one to me.  Not cosmetically perfect but fully operational.
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, I know someone is going to say, "I got one for 50 bucks."  But
> > >> really,
> > >>> what is a fair price?
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> Bill
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 10:48 AM, Magnus Danielson <
> > >>> magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 11/14/2010 09:41 AM, John Miles wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I’ve looked at Wikipedia and I am as lost as when I started.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Could someone walk me through the process step by step and also
> > >>>>>> tell me what test equipment is required?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> Besides the pointers at www.leapsecond.com , I've collected a few
> > >> links
> > >>>>> at http://www.ke5fx.com/stability.htm that may be helpful.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The first .PDF link on that page is my presentation from the
> > Microwave
> > >>>>> Update conference a few weeks ago.  It was meant as an
> introductory
> > >>>>> "Stability Measurement for Radio Nuts" talk, discussing
> the state of
> > >> the
> > >>>>> commercial art in light of what's available to hobbyists.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The NIST links under "General timing and noise metrology", in
> > >> particular
> > >>>>> this one ( http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/2220.pdf ) are
> excellent.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If you have an HP 5370A/B counter and a GPIB interface
> you can do a
> > lot
> > >> of
> > >>>>> good measurement work.  With the appropriate software you can make
> > >>>>> conventional strip-chart style plots of frequency and
> phase, as well
> > as
> > >> ADEV
> > >>>>> and similar plots.  Unless you are a software nut you
> probably do not
> > >> want
> > >>>>> to homebrew the necessary code to do this.  Most people
> don't use the
> > >> same
> > >>>>> program for acquisition and plotting; a script or batch
> file does the
> > >> job of
> > >>>>> reading the data from the counter and spooling it to a text file,
> > while
> > >> a
> > >>>>> program like Stable32 or Ulrich Bangert's (search on
> df6jb plotter)
> > >> renders
> > >>>>> the graphics.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> My own app (TimeLab) is an exception, in that it attempts to do a
> > good
> > >> job
> > >>>>> at both data acquisition and rendering.  It's still under heavy
> > >>>>> construction.  Right now I'm rewriting all of the acquisition
> > routines
> > >> to
> > >>>>> support, among other things, the use of more than one
> GPIB counter at
> > >> once.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Given that you have an HP 5370 available, if you wanted a
> > walkthrough,
> > >> you
> > >>>>> could try something along these lines:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 1) Get an NI or Prologix GPIB adapter, install per manufacturer's
> > >>>>> guidelines.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 2) Download the current TimeLab beta.  You have two options here:
> > >>>>>     http://www.ke5fx.com/timelab/setup.exe -- Graphically ugly but
> > >>>>> better tested
> > >>>>>     http://www.ke5fx.com/timelab/setup_temp.exe -- Nicer looking,
> > >> but
> > >>>>> more likely to have bugs, and some features have yet to be ported
> > over
> > >> to
> > >>>>> the new codebase.  Use this one for the instructions below.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 3) Decide whether you want your HP 5370A/B to run in
> talk-only mode
> > or
> > >>>>> addressable mode and set its DIP switch accordingly.  The software
> > will
> > >> work
> > >>>>> either way since it doesn't actually try to control the
> counter, but
> > >> for a
> > >>>>> 5370 I'd use addressable mode unless you have a reason not to.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 4) Set up a basic frequency measurement to begin with.
> Feed a 10 MHz
> > >>>>> signal or whatever into the STOP jack, and hit FREQ and 1s.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 5) In TimeLab, select Acquire->Acquire from HP 5370A/B, and then
> > select
> > >>>>> the NI interface or the Prologix interface's COM port
> from the list.
> > >> Hit
> > >>>>> the "Monitor" button and you should start seeing the counter's
> > >> frequency
> > >>>>> readings scroll by.  If not, find out why before going
> any further.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 6) Hit "Start Measurement."  After a few readings have
> come in, you
> > >> should
> > >>>>> see your ADEV plot start to take shape.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> 7) Hit the 'f' key to switch to a frequency-difference
> chart, or the
> > >> 'p'
> > >>>>> key for a phase-difference chart.  The 'y' key will
> toggle the Y-axis
> > >>>>> between easy-to-read round numbers and full display range.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> You can get somewhat cleaner measurements from the 5370 if you use
> > >>>>> time-interval mode rather than frequency mode, but time-interval
> > >>>>> measurements require a 1-pps or similar source and some additional
> > >> setup
> > >>>>> effort.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> 0) Essentially whatever source you have (crystal, Rubidium, Cesium,
> > >> GPSDO)
> > >>>> unless you haven't done it before, turn it on well in advance. I
> > prefer
> > >> days
> > >>>> over hours. Locked crystals such as Rubidium, Cesium and
> GPSDOs will
> > >> cancel
> > >>>> the last part of the oscillator drift but depending on details
> > >> performance
> > >>>> may be more or less compromised by this drift. I think
> this is one of
> > >> the
> > >>>> practical details one should not miss.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I for one thinks that using a trigger signal such as the
> PPS or more
> > >>>> preferably a higher frequency trigger is worthwhile, as
> you get a more
> > >>>> stable rate of read-outs. Also, it gives a larger amount
> of raw data,
> > >>>> allowing for the increased degrees of freedom and quicker
> convergence
> > of
> > >>>> estimator(s).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Do use TimeLab, I think it is a great way to get going.
> It's also fun
> > to
> > >>>> see the curve converge as more data comes in...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Cheers,
> > >>>> Magnus
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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