[time-nuts] WWVB Measurements

[Greg Broburg]

 From what I remember of the ancient days of watching
WWV against our in house reference, we had a circular
paper plotter (1 revolution per 24 hours) set up and
could observe the daily drift in and out. From what
I remember the story was that it was an observation
of the rise and fall of the E layer from insolation.
Along with the time delay change caused by the changing
distance up to and down from the displaced E layer,
the accompanying frequency drift was attributed to
Doppler effect.

Greg

On 3/26/2011 8:36 PM, paul swed wrote:
> Actually from what I have seen John it is indeed pretty large and does jump
> for many reasons. The sun maybe wx. But when you think about the local
> oscillator and that is pretty stable and not jumping. Then over time the
> phase of wwvb should come back to a predetermined position or lots of
> measured points should hang around a particular time. How fine grain that
> might be is hard to say. The other thing is the 90 degree phase shift at 15
> after the hour as I recall that has to be accounted for. But again
> predictable and the results of whats measured can be stored for a long time.
>
> Anyhow this is Lenny's thread do not want to take it over.
> Regards
> Paul
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:53 PM, J. Forster<jfor at quik.com>  wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I did that years ago in a qualitative way.
>>
>> I used a local reference of an HP 105B and the 117A w/ HP loop. I synced a
>> Tek 7854 to the local standard and watched and averaged the recovered 60
>> KHz. I no longer remember the results well, but sometimes the "seeing" was
>> <1uS P-P and on other days it was at least 10s of uS to hundreds of uS.
>>
>> This may be hard for some to believe, but the seeing seemed to depend on
>> weather. A big front coming east would make the "seeing" much worse. This
>> was just a casual observation. I never spent much time studying it. If I
>> saw the seeing was horid, I just left the stuff running and went away.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> -John
>>
>> ==================
>>
>>
>>
>>> Interesting thread and welcome to time-nuts.
>>>
>>> Well I suppose since LORAN C has been shut down and I have to say not
>>> having
>>> a lot of luck with LORAN from Europe I have dusted off the ole WWVB
>>> receivers. Actually they have been a live a long time. Just spoiled by
>>> LORAN
>>> and GPS..
>>> My actual interest is a Tracor 599 and I do have 2 X HP 117s and a loop
>>> antenna with preamp about 140' from the house.
>>>
>>> A couple of things I am thinking about. Considering many on time-nuts
>> have
>>> very accurate rubidium or better references or GPS trained Oscillators I
>>> was
>>> going to look at the propagation changes from a semi stable reference
>>> perspective since the local references are quite stable over time.
>>>
>>> Measuring over time would indeed give you an idea about the strange and
>>> wacky 60 KHZ propagation beyond diurnal shift.
>>>
>>> Ultimately could better information be obtained over significant time so
>>> that you might have an alternate to GPS. There are articles that were
>>> published in the 60s by HP and others that describe what might be
>>> expected.
>>> I am just thinking we have a lot of additional technology, methods and
>>> tools
>>> that they did not have. Like laptops that can remember 100s of days worth
>>> of
>>> data and process the heck out of it. Not that you need that much.
>>>
>>> So I have to troubleshoot an oddity in the 599. John, its loosing lock.
>> Is
>>> it broken, is it propagation.... Tough to say. After all its 70s vintage
>>> could be cranky caps or even handfuls of transistors.By the way I did
>>> build
>>> a 60 KHZ xmitter and by golly it does stay locked very nicely. That still
>>> doesn't mean somethings not broken.
>>>
>>> Also I need to build a 60 KC breakout/buffer box so that all three rcvrs
>>> can
>>> operate at the same time and their outputs can be scaled to the recorder.
>>> Have a very fine box just need to do it.
>>>
>>> Lenny I am south of Boston. Think Johns from around here also.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> WB8TSL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Lenny Story<lenny at codematic.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I think you may be right. Although i did read somewhere that this design
>>>> was
>>>> originally just a technical example of an ATMEL 8-bit DSP ... not sure
>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>> -Lenny
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Hal Murray<hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> lenny at Codematic.com said:
>>>>>> As i stated earlier, i'm using a CMMR-60p, which seems to just be a
>>>> small
>>>>>> DSP.
>>>>> The data sheet at SparkFun shows that it's just an analog receiver
>>>> with a
>>>>> peak detector and AGC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anybody have any ideas on how much better you could do with an
>>>> ADC
>>>> and
>>>>> DSP?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>
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