[time-nuts] Low noise power supplies for time nuts circuitry

lists at lazygranch.com lists at lazygranch.com
Tue Nov 22 16:14:51 EST 2011


You are pushing on the load plus shunt with a current source, though traditionally a resistor is used. You are pulling on the source (current source or resistor) with the shunt, which takes any current the load isn't using. The LDO depends on the load to sink current. 

I have used this scheme where I bootstrap a bandgap by building a shunt regulator around the bandgap, essentially regulating the power supply to the bandgap with the bandgap itself. This is one way to get a high level of PSRR in a chip. 

The big drawback to a shunt regulator is efficiency. Otherwise, I think they excel in other performance criteria. 
-----Original Message-----
From: Azelio Boriani <azelio.boriani at screen.it>
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:45:47 
To: <lists at lazygranch.com>; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies for time nuts circuitry

Why is the shunt regulator push-pull? Because of the series regulator first
and the shunt regulator then?
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 8:59 PM, <lists at lazygranch.com> wrote:

> If you want low noise voltage regulation, use a shunt regulator. If the
> load is low current, feed it with a floating current source such as a
> depletion mode jfet (or several in parallel). These are also sold as
> current regulating diodes.
>
> I've used this scheme in IC designs. You also find it in high end audio
> design.
>
> The shunt design is push pull. If the shunt is designed well, the ultimate
> high frequency feed through from the power supply, assuming ideal caps, is
> simply a capacitor divider based on the bypass cap and the capacitance
> across the current source.
>
> The bozos at Broadcom have actually patented using shunt regulation in
> their chips. Good luck enforcing that patent.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SAIDJACK at aol.com
> Sender: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 14:18:20
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>        <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Low noise power supplies for time nuts circuitry
>
> As Bob Pease used to say: Spice plots are good for padding bird cages, not
> much else :)
>
> Hittite has a fantastic new ultra low noise LDO for VCO's. Haven't had a
> chance to check that out, but it looks very promising. Has anyone tried
> that
> part here?
>
> Also, remember that those caps are microphonic most of the time, and could
> actually worsen supply noise in the presence of vibration.
>
> I get noise floors of below -170dBc with just simple RC or LC filtering on
> the power supplies, say 10 Ohms into 100uF Tantalum in parallel with some
> 10nF  to 100nF ceramics (or better Polyester caps), all following the
> typical
> Linear  Technologies low noise LDO's. That will cut off at 160Hz already,
> and go down at  40dB per decade if two filters are cascaded. Use two 100uF
> Tantalums or  22Ohms resistors for a <80Hz cut-off.
>
> At close-in frequencies, the crystal will likely be the worst noise source
> and overpower the supply noise by far. It's hard to get better than -108dBc
> at  1Hz, and -138dBc at 10Hz at 10MHz anyhow.
>
> For high frequency switcher noise, use shielded (TDK etc) 33uH inductors in
>  series to a 10 Ohm resistor, into 100uF Tantalums with 10nF and 220pF  in
> paralell. Cuts off <160Hz and has very good isolation at high  frequencies
> without radiating.
>
> For the best performance against supply noise, simply use differential
> techniques.
>
> bye,
> Said
>
>
> In a message dated 11/22/2011 10:52:29 Pacific Standard Time,
> phk at phk.freebsd.dk writes:
>
> In  message <6F9E458F-B701-49C1-8D83-EBDA35784764 at ulrich-bangert.de>,
> Ulrich  Ban
> gert writes:
>
> >It seems to turn out as if the well known  Wenzel suggestions for voltage
> >regulator finesse were not state of the  art [...]
>
>
> I've played a bit with the Wenzel circuits and they can  provide truly
> outstanding damping, my best was 80dB using a HP VHF  transister I can't
> remember the number of.
>
> And yes, they are very  sensitive to just about everything, in particular
> temperature.
>
> But  getting at good solid 30+dB damping is not _that_ hard, in particular
> for  very low-current constant loads, such as X-tal oscillators.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus  3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC  956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
>  incompetence.
>
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