[time-nuts] HP/Agilet counter 53131A (not 53151A) trigger problems

Azelio Boriani azelio.boriani at screen.it
Mon Aug 27 19:09:54 EDT 2012


My starting point is the paper by Neubig on the real vs. predicted aging:
experimenting with the model and try to cut it around the Morion or the
Oscilloquartz OCXOs.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:

> There are ways of generating models, such as ARIMA, using past behavior
> and the models used to tweak filters and so on. The shifts would have to
> be accounted for as they occur, seems to me. Now the interesting
> possibility is that a shift does not alter the underlying model for a
> given crystal????
> Has to be tested.
> Don
>
> Azelio Boriani
> > So it can't be done... the possibility to discipline an OCXO taking the
> > action from a suitable model should help in speeding up the adjustments
> > and
> > avoiding the humps as seen in the Allan deviation plot.
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Isn't crystal aging marked by random jumps? perhaps lattice
> >> rearrangement? Really hard if not impossible to model...
> >> Don
> >>
> >> Azelio Boriani
> >> > 30mV are -13dBm so maybe it is why the -20dBm is not a suitable
> >> level
> >> > for
> >> > that input. I have the 53132A and the 53181A so I can test (with the
> >> R&S
> >> > SML01). Is this problem new? Never tested before?
> >> >
> >> > About the OCXO aging: OK, I'm interested in the development of a
> >> model
> >> > that
> >> > can be general enough so that it can be "steered", adjusting its
> >> > parameters, during the OCXO life. The data (to adjust the
> >> parameters)
> >> > will
> >> > be gathered by the continuous monitoring with the GPS.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Bernd Neubig <bneubig at t-online.de>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Azelio,
> >> >>
> >> >> Sorry, the counters are 53131A, not 53151A. The A and B inputs are
> >> >> specified
> >> >> from DC to 225 MHz with a sensitivity of y20 mV (rms) up to 100
> >> MHz,
> >> >> <30 mV
> >> >> (rms) 100 ~ 200 MHz, and <50 mV (rms) 200 ~ 225 MHz.
> >> >> The problem can be at either input alone. The problem is only in
> >> the
> >> >> range
> >> >> between 100 MHz and <200 MHz, observed in automatic trigger mode.
> >> In
> >> >> manual
> >> >> trigger mode the counter does not trigger at all in that freq
> >> range.
> >> >>
> >> >> I cannot tell you an aging model for a particular OCXO, and I doubt
> >> if
> >> >> anyone can ;) Aging predictions can only be made on individual
> >> OCXO,
> >> >> unit
> >> >> by
> >> >> unit, and the prediction is only valid over a rather limited time.
> >> >> Therefore
> >> >> you must continuously monitor and update your prediction.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best regards
> >> >>
> >> >> Bernd
> >> >> DK1AG
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
> >> Im
> >> >> Auftrag von Azelio Boriani
> >> >> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. August 2012 17:28
> >> >> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >> >> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Agilet counter 53151A trigger problems
> >> >>
> >> >> From the datasheet:
> >> >> A input 10Hz..125MHz min level 25mVrms (-19dBm) B input min 50MHz,
> >> >> -20dBm
> >> >> the problem is on A input only? Maybe 150MHz for the A input, being
> >> >> beyond
> >> >> the official specifications, requires more signal on one counter
> >> than
> >> >> the
> >> >> other. In the past they all were fine?
> >> >> I have read your paper on the correlation between the real and
> >> >> predicted
> >> >> aging of crystal oscillators. I'm trying to find a suitable model
> >> for
> >> >> the
> >> >> Morion MV201 OCXO or the Oscilloquartz 8663 to implement a Kalman
> >> >> filter.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Bernd Neubig <BNeubig at t-online.de>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Hi all,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I have several HP/Agilent frequency counters 53151A (and 53152A)
> >> in
> >> >> my
> >> >> lab.
> >> >> > Several of them meanwhile show trigger problems.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I have tested the A and B channel between 5 MHz and 200 MHZ at
> >> three
> >> >> > input levels of -10 dBm, 0 dBm and +10 dBm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Those with trigger problems show erroneous numbers at -10 dBm
> >> input
> >> >> > level rather selectively, i.e. mostly at 100 MHz, some also at
> >> 150
> >> >> > MHz, while the are o.k.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Has anyone on this list experienced similar defects and can give
> >> a
> >> >> > recommendation how to fix/repair them?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Best regards
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bernd
> >> >> >
> >> >> > DK1AG
> >> >> >
> >> >> > www.axtal.com
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >
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> >> >>
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> >> >>
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> >> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> >> R. Bacon
> >> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> >> Ghost in the Shell
> >>
> >>
> >> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> >> Six Mile Systems LLP
> >> 17850 Six Mile Road
> >> POB 134
> >> Huson, MT, 59846
> >> VOX 406-626-4304
> >> www.lightningforensics.com
> >> www.sixmilesystems.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
> --
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> R. Bacon
> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
>
>
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



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