[time-nuts] HP/Agilet counter 53131A (not 53151A) trigger problems

Tue Aug 28 16:21:53 UTC 2012

thanks,Azelio. Neubig kindly sent the location for the references.
Another good company, like the Wenzel site.
Don

Azelio Boriani
> www.*axtal*.com/data/publ/*aging*_e.pdf
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 2:32 AM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
>
>> Could you refresh me with the reference or email the paper? I'd like
>> to
>> give it a read.
>> Don
>>
>> Azelio Boriani
>> > My starting point is the paper by Neubig on the real vs. predicted
>> > aging:
>> > experimenting with the model and try to cut it around the Morion or
>> the
>> > Oscilloquartz OCXOs.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> There are ways of generating models, such as ARIMA, using past
>> >> behavior
>> >> and the models used to tweak filters and so on. The shifts would
>> have
>> >> to
>> >> be accounted for as they occur, seems to me. Now the interesting
>> >> possibility is that a shift does not alter the underlying model for
>> a
>> >> given crystal????
>> >> Has to be tested.
>> >> Don
>> >>
>> >> Azelio Boriani
>> >> > So it can't be done... the possibility to discipline an OCXO
>> taking
>> >> the
>> >> > action from a suitable model should help in speeding up the
>> >> adjustments
>> >> > and
>> >> > avoiding the humps as seen in the Allan deviation plot.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Isn't crystal aging marked by random jumps? perhaps lattice
>> >> >> rearrangement? Really hard if not impossible to model...
>> >> >> Don
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Azelio Boriani
>> >> >> > 30mV are -13dBm so maybe it is why the -20dBm is not a
>> suitable
>> >> >> level
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > that input. I have the 53132A and the 53181A so I can test
>> (with
>> >> the
>> >> >> R&S
>> >> >> > SML01). Is this problem new? Never tested before?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > About the OCXO aging: OK, I'm interested in the development of
>> a
>> >> >> model
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > can be general enough so that it can be "steered", adjusting
>> its
>> >> >> > parameters, during the OCXO life. The data (to adjust the
>> >> >> parameters)
>> >> >> > will
>> >> >> > be gathered by the continuous monitoring with the GPS.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Bernd Neubig
>> >> <bneubig at t-online.de>
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Hi Azelio,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Sorry, the counters are 53131A, not 53151A. The A and B
>> inputs
>> >> are
>> >> >> >> specified
>> >> >> >> from DC to 225 MHz with a sensitivity of y20 mV (rms) up to
>> 100
>> >> >> MHz,
>> >> >> >> <30 mV
>> >> >> >> (rms) 100 ~ 200 MHz, and <50 mV (rms) 200 ~ 225 MHz.
>> >> >> >> The problem can be at either input alone. The problem is only
>> in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> range
>> >> >> >> between 100 MHz and <200 MHz, observed in automatic trigger
>> >> mode.
>> >> >> In
>> >> >> >> manual
>> >> >> >> trigger mode the counter does not trigger at all in that freq
>> >> >> range.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I cannot tell you an aging model for a particular OCXO, and I
>> >> doubt
>> >> >> if
>> >> >> >> anyone can ;) Aging predictions can only be made on
>> individual
>> >> >> OCXO,
>> >> >> >> unit
>> >> >> >> by
>> >> >> >> unit, and the prediction is only valid over a rather limited
>> >> time.
>> >> >> >> Therefore
>> >> >> >> you must continuously monitor and update your prediction.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Best regards
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Bernd
>> >> >> >> DK1AG
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> >> >> >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
>> >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
>> >> >> Im
>> >> >> >> Auftrag von Azelio Boriani
>> >> >> >> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. August 2012 17:28
>> >> >> >> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> >> >> >> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Agilet counter 53151A trigger
>> >> problems
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> From the datasheet:
>> >> >> >> A input 10Hz..125MHz min level 25mVrms (-19dBm) B input min
>> >> 50MHz,
>> >> >> >> -20dBm
>> >> >> >> the problem is on A input only? Maybe 150MHz for the A input,
>> >> being
>> >> >> >> beyond
>> >> >> >> the official specifications, requires more signal on one
>> counter
>> >> >> than
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> other. In the past they all were fine?
>> >> >> >> I have read your paper on the correlation between the real
>> and
>> >> >> >> predicted
>> >> >> >> aging of crystal oscillators. I'm trying to find a suitable
>> >> model
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> Morion MV201 OCXO or the Oscilloquartz 8663 to implement a
>> >> Kalman
>> >> >> >> filter.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Bernd Neubig
>> >> <BNeubig at t-online.de>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Hi all,
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I have several HP/Agilent frequency counters 53151A (and
>> >> 53152A)
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> my
>> >> >> >> lab.
>> >> >> >> > Several of them meanwhile show trigger problems.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > I have tested the A and B channel between 5 MHz and 200 MHZ
>> at
>> >> >> three
>> >> >> >> > input levels of -10 dBm, 0 dBm and +10 dBm.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Those with trigger problems show erroneous numbers at -10
>> dBm
>> >> >> input
>> >> >> >> > level rather selectively, i.e. mostly at 100 MHz, some also
>> at
>> >> >> 150
>> >> >> >> > MHz, while the are o.k.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Has anyone on this list experienced similar defects and can
>> >> give
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> > recommendation how to fix/repair them?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Best regards
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Bernd
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > DK1AG
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > www.axtal.com
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To
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>> >> >> to
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>> >> >> >> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
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>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and
>> >> argument
>> >> >> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the
>> >> mind."
>> >> >> R. Bacon
>> >> >> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
>> >> >> Ghost in the Shell
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
>> >> >> Six Mile Systems LLP
>> >> >> 17850 Six Mile Road
>> >> >> POB 134
>> >> >> Huson, MT, 59846
>> >> >> VOX 406-626-4304
>> >> >> www.lightningforensics.com
>> >> >> www.sixmilesystems.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> >> >> To unsubscribe, go to
>> >> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> >> >> and follow the instructions there.
>> >> >>
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> >> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and
>> argument
>> >> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the
>> mind."
>> >> R. Bacon
>> >> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
>> >> Ghost in the Shell
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
>> >> Six Mile Systems LLP
>> >> 17850 Six Mile Road
>> >> POB 134
>> >> Huson, MT, 59846
>> >> VOX 406-626-4304
>> >> www.lightningforensics.com
>> >> www.sixmilesystems.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> >> To unsubscribe, go to
>> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> >> and follow the instructions there.
>> >>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
>> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
>> R. Bacon
>> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
>> Ghost in the Shell
>>
>>
>> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
>> Six Mile Systems LLP
>> 17850 Six Mile Road
>> POB 134
>> Huson, MT, 59846
>> VOX 406-626-4304
>> www.lightningforensics.com
>> www.sixmilesystems.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
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>

-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century.
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell

Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com