[time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 102, Issue 59
Me
w8cv at comcast.net
Mon Feb 25 20:45:42 UTC 2013
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. OCXO DIP (Joseph Gray)
> 2. Re: Thermal noise contribution to phase noise (Bruce Griffiths)
> 3. Re: OCXO DIP (David)
> 4. Re: OCXO DIP (J. L. Trantham)
> 5. Re: Thermal noise contribution to phase noise (Joe Leikhim)
> 6. Re: OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist? (J. L. Trantham)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:10:03 -0700
>From: Joseph Gray <jgray at zianet.com>
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP
>Message-ID:
> <CAF7oPz1C+7fTJtzZoxVtk+3c+idPWawdQ+rdfxsYhj9sH-u_0w at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I just ordered a few of these. They looked like a potential substitute
>for a larger OXCO in some applications. Does anyone have any
>experience with them?
>
>http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10MHz-OCXO-DIP-Micro-Crystal-x1pc-5x10E-11-Oven-Oscillator-OCVCXO-GPSDO-/310380778466
>
>Joe Gray
>W5JG
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:41:28 +1300
>From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal noise contribution to phase noise
>Message-ID: <50F62F78.7050904 at xtra.co.nz>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> The noise spectrum is composed equally of AM and PM noise. Together they add
>> to -174.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Graham / KE9H
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:46 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal noise contribution to phase noise
>>
>> Bruce:
>>
>> The last time I looked, the thermal noise floor was still -174 dBm/Hz
>> (at 300 Kelvin).
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_noise
>>
>> Are you saying Boltzmann's constant is off by 3 dB, or are we mixing
>> apples and oranges here?
>>
>> Is there a 3 dB adjustment between noise floor (at room temperature) and
>> the "single side band" phase noise measurement, which only looks at half
>> the noise, since it only looks on one side of the reference signal?
>>
>>
>The upper and lower sidebansd are coherent so their combined power level
>is 6dB higher when translated to baseband as is done in a traditional
>analog diode mixer based phase noise measurement system.
>
>Bruce
>> --- Graham / KE9H
>>
>> ==
>>
>> On 1/15/2013 1:38 PM, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>>
>>> I've noticed a disturbing tendency to quote the thermal noise
>>> contribution to phase noise as -174dBm/Hz instead of the corrent value
>>> of -177dBm/Hz as verified by measurement by NIST:
>>> http://tf.nist.gov/phase/noisemeas.html
>>>
>>> This error occurs in papers from Spectrum Microwave, Wenzel Associates
>>> and others.
>>> Blindly propagating the results quoted in the early literature isnt
>>> particularly helpful given that the definition of SSB phase noise has
>>> changed in the intervening decades.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:41:49 -0600
>From: David <davidwhess at gmail.com>
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP
>Message-ID: <dlbcf8dke1o651hhgejo8jsll8ee1v5kre at 4ax.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>I know they were discussed here in the past but I do not remember any
>performance reports. I may buy a couple myself but I do not have the
>equipment yet to evaluate one.
>
>On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:10:03 -0700, Joseph Gray <jgray at zianet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I just ordered a few of these. They looked like a potential substitute
>>for a larger OXCO in some applications. Does anyone have any
>>experience with them?
>>
>>http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10MHz-OCXO-DIP-Micro-Crystal-x1pc-5x10E-11-Oven-Oscillator-OCVCXO-GPSDO-/310380778466
>>
>>Joe Gray
>>W5JG
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:52:08 -0600
>From: "J. L. Trantham" <jltran at att.net>
>To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP
>Message-ID: <ABCD76CB33014FD395101E2AEA22CD8C at cardiac5f772ce>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I bought a couple to put on the shelf for 'future projects'. IIRC, they are
>square wave, very stable and quite accurate when I tested them.
>
>However, I did no 'formal' measurement of their performance.
>
>My thought was an OCXO reference that I wanted to build for the HP 5315 and
>5316 A and B series 100 MHz counters. 5 VDC was my main concern.
>
>I think they will do fine and I can likely put it together without having to
>come up with a 'custom' PCB. Just a 'bread board' approach.
>
>One of these days I need to learn how to 'construct' and order custom PCB's
>online as I have been reading about on the list.
>
>Joe
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>Behalf Of David
>Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 10:42 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OCXO DIP
>
>I know they were discussed here in the past but I do not remember any
>performance reports. I may buy a couple myself but I do not have the
>equipment yet to evaluate one.
>
>On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 21:10:03 -0700, Joseph Gray <jgray at zianet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I just ordered a few of these. They looked like a potential substitute
>>for a larger OXCO in some applications. Does anyone have any
>>experience with them?
>>
>>http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-10MHz-OCXO-DIP-Micro-Crystal-x1pc-5x10E-11-Oven
>-Oscillator-OCVCXO-GPSDO-/310380778466
>>
>>Joe Gray
>>W5JG
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>To unsubscribe, go to
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:36:19 -0500
>From: Joe Leikhim <jleikhim at leikhim.com>
>To: time-nuts at febo.com
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thermal noise contribution to phase noise
>Message-ID: <50F63C53.9090501 at leikhim.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> From a practical standpoint, which is it -177 or -174 dBm?
>This is confusing topic.
>
>If for example an FM receiver, does the AM component become irrelevant?
>
>
>_(snip)__
>
>As Bob stated thermal noise is equally divided between AM and PM
>components when a carrier is present.
>
>Both the AM and PM noise components are -177dBm/Hz their sum is
>-174dBm/Hz.
>
>Bruce_
>
>--
>Joe Leikhim
>
>
>Leikhim and Associates
>
>Communications Consultants
>
>Oviedo, Florida
>
>JLeikhim at Leikhim.com
>
>407-982-0446
>
>WWW.LEIKHIM.COM
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:08:03 -0600
>From: "J. L. Trantham" <jltran at att.net>
>To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist?
>Message-ID: <FC46E52FA9D144108A1C35A974AB6B3E at S0028384766>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Work has allowed another brief entry to this project.
>
>I opened the SS3 and removed the small PCB that appears to be a USB to
>Parallel Port adapter.
>
>It's part number is WWAVUSBEPP, an interesting choice. I took some pictures
>of the unit and I can send them to anyone that is interested. I do not have
>a means of 'posting' the pictures.
>
>It has 4 IC's, U1 through U4. U1 is a CY7C68013-56LFC which appears to be a
>Cypress EZ-USB FX2 USB Microcontroller High-speed USB Peripheral Controller.
>The data sheet is here:
>
>http://mdfly.com/newmdfly/products/FX56/cy7c68013a.pdf
>
>An evaluation board is available.
>
>http://www.mdfly.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_56&products_id
>=107&zenid=at30m3698fqnnoq42ffmgnmrv1
>
>It uses a 24 MHz crystal on the board to drive a 480 MHz oscillator to run
>the microcontroller and there is a part on the WWAVUSBEPP labeled '24.000
>DALE 6K'.
>
>U2 appears to be an LT 176333 500 mA Low Noise, LDO Micropower Regulator for
>converting the 5 VDC power supply, coming from the main board of the SS3, to
>3.3 VDC. It's data sheet is here:
>
>http://cds.linear.com/docs/Datasheet/1763fg.pdf
>
>U3 is a mystery. It appears to be an SOT device with 5 pins with 'SATRIP'
>labeled on the top. I can not find any information about this chip.
>
>U4 appears to be an ST 24C64WP SOIC 8 pin EEPROM. It's data sheet is here:
>
>http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/DATA
>SHEET/CD00259166.pdf
>
>I called BP Micro today and the WWAVUSBEPP is available, in stock, for
>$101.92. I don't recognize any markings on the unit that might identify who
>made it for BP Micro. Someone else might be able to from the picture.
>
>So, what further advice and/or recommendations are there?
>
>Thanks again for all the help.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>Behalf Of gary
>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 12:52 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist?
>
>
>I stayed out as well. I didn't want to get into this, but I suspect if
>you are using the parallel port, bit banging is how they did it. That
>hasn't worked well since win98. Every newer version of Windows made the
>ports harder to "own", mostly because once there was multitasking, it
>became necessary for something to arbitrate what process owned what
>piece of hardware.
>
>Peek and Poke goes way back. You used to be able to read and write to
>the ports directly using those functions.
>
>I hate to be negative, but you wouldn't be the first person to get
>screwed by interface standards changing. Think of those klunker PCs that
>were kept alive just not to buy another National GPIB board.
>
>Bit banging worked really well under DOS. Many hacks were done using the
>interrupt lines on the serial ports.
>
>
>
>On 1/14/2013 10:31 AM, J. L. Trantham wrote:
>> Nate,
>>
>> I, too, am hesitant to post an OT issue, and that is the reason I
>> tried to ask just the bare essentials without clogging up the list
>> with too much stuff. However, when I want to know something, I like
>> to ask the smartest people I know, and this has certainly proven that
>> point.
>>
>> I think you are giving me way too much credit for my abilities to
>> 'dissect', 'peek', 'bitbang', and 'VID/PID'. However, if I am able to
>> accomplish this, it will be a PhD in 'computer', at least from my
>> perspective.
>>
>> You have given me a lot of places to start and I am sure I will have a
>> lot more questions that I can take off list if someone is willing to
>> lend a hand. I'll start with removing and inspecting the USB to
>> Parallel adapter in the SS3 to see if I can get an idea about the
>> chipset used. The BP Micro software is easily downloadable from
>> www.bpmicro.com. You have to register but it is free. I will explore
>> that as well but there is where I will very likely need help. I know
>> the software works with WinXP and later (at least Win7, I don't know
>> about Win8). Perhaps earlier versions as well.
>>
>> Thanks again to all who have responded and apologies for the OT posts.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
>> On Behalf Of Nathaniel Bezanson
>> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 9:55 AM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist?
>>
>> I always feel guilty replying to off-topic threads, but this one just
>> got interesting! At least most mailers make it easy to mute threads,
>> so...
>>
>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>> My goal is to connect a BP Micro BP-1600, parallel port connected
>>> Universal Programmer, to a computer using USB. BP Micro makes the
>>> BP-1610 which does just this. It appears to be the same programmer,
>>> uses the same software, but connects via a USB port instead of a
>>> parallel
>> port.
>>
>> Ahh, well there's the part you didn't tell us previously! Mainly, that
>> the PC-side software already knows how to abstract those calls and
>> send them over USB -- it's not hard-coded to bitbang the physical
>> parallel port. That was the major stumbling block, and it's not a
>> block at all.
>>
>> Odds are that BP Micro wanted to do as little work as possible to
>> update their design, so they probably used standard silicon in front
>> of the old parallel-based programmer circuit, with OEM drivers and
>> just a custom USB VID/PID to make it enumerate properly. If we work on
>> this assumption, the hack might be trivial indeed.
>>
>> Dissect the USB drivers that come with the software -- there should be
>> hints in there about the chipset which it expects to see inside the
>> 1610. Simply right-clicking all the DLLs and stuff should reveal a few
>> signed by a silicon company, likely Cypress or FTDI. There may be
>> hints as to the part number. Get your hands on that chip, preferably
>> by finding a premade USB-to-parallel cable based on it. (These are
>> usually just the datasheet example circuit.)
>>
>> You can find the expected VID/PID by peeking into the INF included
>> with the 1610 software. Use the chipmaker's dev tools to reflash the
>> USB chip with the appropriate VID/PID, and see if BPWin will talk to
>> it. (Alternately, edit the INF with the existing VID/PID of the
>> adapter you're using. This will make every similar USB-to-parallel
>> cable enumerate as a BP1610, which is obviously the dirtiest hack
>> ever, but may work just fine.)
>>
>> If the drivers load but the programmer won't initialize, then the ID
>> parts are right but the connections are wrong. Likely the data lines
>> are connected straight, and it's just the handshaking lines that might
>> do things differently than the datasheet example. Working from the
>> chip datasheet will be your guide as to the possibilities.
>>
>> Rots of ruck!
>> -Nate-
>>
>> I have not had a
>>> chance to see the inside of the BP-1610 and would really appreciate
>>> some pictures if anyone has one, particularly the corner of the PCB
>>> that connects to the USB connection.
>>>
>>> All I have is an Actel Silicon Sculptor 3, also made by BP Micro,
>>> that looks like the BP-1710 (with the 'START' button) but connects
>>> via a USB port. On the main PCB of the BP-1600 and the SS3 are two,
>>> 2 row, 26 pin, connectors, one toward the back edge of the PCB toward
>>> the back panel and the other just inside the first connector. The
>>> inside connector directly connects to the parallel port on the back
>>> of the BP-1600. On the SS3, there is a small PCB that plugs into the
>>> same connector, takes a power input, and also has 6 pin connections
>>> to the other 26 pin connector. This small PCB has a USB connector
>>> that is
>> connected to the back of the SS3 as the USB connection.
>>>
>>> These observations lead me to believe that it is possible to do a
>>> 'USB to parallel' adapter to make the connection. Of course, I don't
>>> have a clue about the onboard firmware that might be different to
>>> allow the unit to be recognized as a USB instead of a parallel port
>>> connected
>> device.
>>>
>>> So, some 'experimenting' seems in order, after first trying to
>>> closely inspect the small PCB and try to reverse engineer it a bit.
>>>
>>> In the mean time, I have a collection of laptop's and desktop's with
>>> parallel port connectors so keeping the programmers humming is not a
>>> problem. Just would like to make the 'jump' to the 'modern era'. A
>>> project that has been in the back of my mind. I will probably try
>>> one of the adapters referred to.
>>>
>>> Thanks again for all the info.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com
>>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 5:38 PM
>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - USB to LPT Adapter - Does it exist?
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Luis
>>>
>>> No problem, and it's much better anyway to hear from someone who's
>>> used
>>> it:-)
>>>
>>> I only took a quick look at the web site before and didn't see the
>>> self build instructions at that time, but having seen the SMD chip
>>> he's using I think asking for a price might be safer:-)
>>>
>>> I see from your earlier comments that you've used it ok with old
>>> programmers but on the page you've linked do he doesn't recommend
>>> that, have you come across any problems with this?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Nigel
>>> GM8PZR
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 11/01/2013 20:15:15 GMT Standard Time,
>>> ct1dmk at gmail.com
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> Hi Nigel,
>>>
>>> I missed your post before my reply to Joe, so I made no mention to
>>> your suggestion. I have those and they are not a printer thing, they
>>> really work low
>> level.
>>> The list of programmers and bit oriented stuff that was reported to
>>> work well is big and surely there are more stuff that works that is
>>> not in the list...
>>>
>>> Joe, take a look a check if you app is reported good:
>>>
>>> http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC/
>>> U
>>> SB2LPT
>>> /liste.en.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> Luis Cupido
>>> ct1dmk.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/11/2013 5:03 PM, GandalfG8 at aol.com wrote:
>>>> Hi Joe
>>>>
>>>> As per other replies I was going to suggest this won't work because
>>>> USB adapters are for printing only and my solution would be to buy
>>>> an old
>>> 486 or
>>>> early pentium laptop and use that, I've bought several over the
>>>> past
>> few
>>>> years for really silly money on Ebay for this very reason, but I have
>>> come
>>>> across what might be a possible solution....
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC
>>> /
>>> USB2LP
>>>> T/index.html.en_
>>>>
>>> (http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~heha/bastelecke/Rund%20um%20den%20PC
>>> /
>>> USB2LP
>>> T/index.html.en)
>>>>
>>>> I can't vouch for this, just found it via Google, and although the
>>> drivers
>>>> are downloadable you need to buy the adapter and have to email for
>>> prices,
>>>> but it might be worth a try.
>>>>
>>>> My preferrred solution would still be the old laptop:-)
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Nigel
>>>> GM8PZR
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 11/01/2013 13:09:45 GMT Standard Time,
>>>> jltran at att.net
>>>> writes:
>>>>
>>>> Not sure where to ask this question but thought I would start
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a way to connect a parallel port to a computer via USB?
>>>> Not a device that shows up as 'USB Print Support' but, instead,
>>>> shows up in Device Manager as an LPT port? I have been able to do
>>>> it via PCMCIA to
>>> Parallel
>>>> Port adapters but I have never found a USB device that would do
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>> My goal is to connect a parallel port chip programmer via USB but
>>>> the software only looks for LPT ports. It works with PCMCIA to
>>>> parallel
>>> port
>>>> adapters but I haven't solved the puzzle yet with a USB connected
>>> device.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
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>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
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>>
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