[time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard, Datum
Bob Camp
lists at rtty.us
Thu Oct 3 22:50:41 UTC 2013
Hi
Ok here's a minimum of what you would need to "rebuild" a Cs tube:
1) A way to open up the tube that could be re-sealed or a full (very custom) replacement outer shell
2) A way to scrub it clean of Cs at the molecular level (it's all over the inside of the tube)
3) A way to build a new Cs source and target
4) A way to load the Cs into the source (likely in a vacuum).
5) A way to mount the new source and target in the tube (also likely in a vacuum).
6) A way to line everything up by comparison to something better (like a Hydrogen Maser)
7) A way to pump it all down and bake it all out (probably for days)
8) A way to weld it shut without dirtying it up. Coldweld would be best, resistance weld might also work. Both require custom dies.
9) Then there's all the permits, processes, documentation, testing, evaluation, and other "overhead" that goes into any modern high tech manufacturing plant.
Then of course there's the minor item of the research effort to figure out how to do all this stuff. There's no textbook to follow. There are a small number of people (maybe a few dozen) who really know all about this sort of manufacture.
More or less you are looking at $3M to $5M worth of this and that to get started with the equipment. Who knows on the research. Yes, I know you *think* you can do it for less. That's what it will *really* cost before you know if you are close or not. I've done enough of these systems to see lots of rosy first pass predictions, and then to see what the outcome really was.
There's maybe $2K worth of raw "stuff" in a Cs tube. The rest of the money you pay when buying a new one goes to all the work involved. There's a lot of work (and very fancy tooling) involved. Even with all that fancy stuff they still make a number of duds …
Bob
On Oct 3, 2013, at 2:13 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> Boy am staying clear of the rebuild discussion. Search time nuts the
> details are explicitly explained and interesting. Has to do with
> reactivity, vacuums, and shields.
> Correct mix of the CS stuff. My pharmacy doesn't carry whats needed,
> walmart either.
> Regards
> Paul
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Tom Miller <tmiller at skylinenet.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I wonder if the beam current amp is working? Shouldn't I at least see some
>> noise when I run the gain all the way up? I need to wait until I get the
>> manual to see where to look and what to check. I do know which DAC is used
>> for the beam gain setting but where to see if it works is not too clear.
>>
>> I know everyone says the tubes can't be rebuilt, but why?
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "paul swed" <paulswedb at gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
>> time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 11:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard,
>> Datum
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe,
>> I did not actually look at the numbers until your email. I did reformat and
>> clean them up for long term retention.
>> Right you are and will guess the ion pump e is a direct reading at 2.4..KV
>> The Ion pump I is nice and low
>> Beam is zero or noise or profoundly weak.
>> All of the other voltages look reasonable.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 9:08 AM, J. L. Trantham <jltran at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Suspicious for a dead tube.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.com<time-nuts-bounces at febo.com>]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Tom Miller
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 9:54 PM
>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard, Datum
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just to get this data on the list.
>>>
>>> Here are the measured voltages on U1:
>>>
>>> Pin Fn Voltage Limits
>>> 9 Beam I 0.001 1.01 to 3.73
>>> 18 Ion Pump E 2.436 1.72 to 3.01
>>> 7 Ion Pump I 0.020 0 to 2.0
>>> 19 Elec Multi E 2.060 0.84 to 3.01
>>> 17 C-Field I 3.65 3.28 to 4.45 (front
>>> panel
>>> sw set at 500)
>>> 16 Cs Oven T 1.379 1.27 to 1.55
>>> 20 Xtal Oven Pwr 3.57 2.81 to 3.91
>>> 3 180 MHz Lvl 2.784 0.1 to 4.8
>>> 2 12.6 MHz Dig 4.84 4.0 to 5.0
>>> 23 12.6 MHz Ana 1.34 0.35 to 4.28
>>> 6 +5 Supply 2.427 2.35 to 2.68
>>> 4 +18 V Supply 2.484 2.42 to 2.68
>>> 22 - 18 V Supply 2.481 1.72 to 3.52
>>> 21 Chassis T 3.045 2.62 to 3.44
>>>
>>>
>>> It has been on for four days.
>>>
>>> When I compare the 10 MHz out to my GPSDO, the frequency matches up when
>>> the
>>> control (meter 4) passes 3.2 volts. There is no movement in the Beam
>>> current
>>> (meter 3) as control sweeps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Tom Knox
>>> To: Tom Miller ; Time-Nuts
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 2:00 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard,
>>> Datum
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If anyone has a service manual I am also very interested. Thanks
>>> Thomas Knox
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: tmiller at skylinenet.net
>>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 13:22:45 -0400
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard,
>>> Datum
>>>>
>>>> Hello Corby,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the help. Yes, could you copy me on the information for the
>>> U1
>>>> chip? I do not have anything other than the user manual from Brooke.
>>> At
>>> this
>>>> time, anything will be a great help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: <cdelect at juno.com>
>>>> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 11:47 AM
>>>> Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard, Datum
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,
>>>>
>>>> On the 4060 you can easily monitor the Ion pump voltage and current,
>>> the
>>>> electron multiplier voltage, and other important parameters by
>>> measuring
>>>> the voltages on the U1 chip on the uP board.
>>>> This saves you fronm having to diconnect stuff to measure the HV and
>>>> such.
>>>> If you don't have a manual showing the pins of U1 I can post to pinout
>>>> here on Time Nuts.
>>>>
>>>> Corby
>>>>
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