[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

Sun Aug 9 20:02:24 UTC 2015

Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH?
Don

Bob Camp
> Hi
>
> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!!
>
> Bob
>
>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run
>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal
>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and
>> disciplining to the 1PPS.
>>
>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things are
>> looking very good.
>>
>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will post
>> that here when I am done.
>>
>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the
>> project.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible
>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100%
>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different
>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an
>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001.
>>>
>>> That kicks you back to  20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon
>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since
>>> then.
>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call
>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers.
>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you
>>> have a LOT of changes.
>>>
>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0,
>>> with
>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high
>>> stability /
>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity
>>> GPS to
>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds.
>>>
>>> ============
>>>
>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !!
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware.
>>>>
>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore
>>>> receivers.
>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to
>>>> use a new
>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the
>>>> messages
>>>> required to do that.
>>>>
>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as
>>>> ASCII
>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited
>>>> with
>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and
>>>> after many
>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them.
>>>>
>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The
>>>> problem
>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels
>>>> while
>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is
>>>> two
>>>> more groups of satellite data.
>>>>
>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages.
>>>> Considering
>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to bill at iaxs.net
>>>> for
>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please
>>>> make a
>>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a
>>>> 28 volt
>>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being
>>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other
>>>> stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Hawkins
>>>> Bloomington, MN 55438
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
>>>> Camp
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA
>>>> era
>>>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information.
>>>> The signal
>>>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it
>>>> worth
>>>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound
>>>> reasonable.
>>>>
>>>> As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions
>>>> ..
>>>>
>>>> ======
>>>>
>>>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations.
>>>> The KS
>>>> does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same locations
>>>> directly
>>>> over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field.
>>>>
>>>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here
>>>> and there.
>>>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore
>>>> strings
>>>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about.
>>>>
>>>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox,
>>>> remember that
>>>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS
>>>> fired relative to
>>>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the
>>>> time label wrong
>>>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical
>>>> evidence of
>>>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far
>>>> harder to track down
>>>> when only looking at the “outside” of the device.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan exactly my thinking.
>>>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock.
>>>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think
>>>> there is
>>>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real
>>>> oncore
>>>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats
>>>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all
>>>>> easily do a fixed string.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok,
>>>> and
>>>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code
>>>> can be
>>>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using
>>>> a ~$1
>>>>>> chip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should
>>>> still be
>>>>>> quite easy to do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a
>>>> Jupiter-T
>>>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very
>>>> nicely
>>>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's
>>>> notes and
>>>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Looking forward to the notes.
>>>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that
>>>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps
>>>> after
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with
>>>> the
>>>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low
>>>> end
>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>> will do that stunt very easily.
>>>>>>> That would be pretty sweet.
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably
>>>> take a
>>>>>>>> few days
>>>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What you will need:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0
>>>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going
>>>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do)
>>>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is
>>>> no
>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> More to follow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second
>>>> REF-0
>>>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet
>>>> to
>>>>>> figure
>>>>>>>> out what is needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position
>>>> locked in
>>>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings.
>>>>>>>>>> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply
>>>> grabs
>>>>>>>> the data off of the string
>>>>>>>>>> as it comes by.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off
>>>> list.
>>>>>>>> It’s buried around here somewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal
>>>> lines"?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box
>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>>> All of the work decoding
>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off
>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> looks like the output
>>>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple
>>>> manipulation
>>>>>>>> of the signal lines.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without
>>>> GPS,
>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to
>>>>>>>> configure it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 +
>>>> USD
>>>>>>>> 52.30
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as
>>>> custom
>>>>>>>> taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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-------------------------------
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