[time-nuts] Wikipedia and Residual Phase Noise

[Magnus Danielson]

Dear Ulrich,

Nice performance on your 10 GHz oscillator then!
I was not aware of that level of performance from a more regular 
oscillator source.

Wish you luck with solving the power amplifier stage phase noise issue.

The FSWP is indeed a nice new box for the task. Wish I had one. Already 
the FSUP was nice. These use dual channels and cross-correlation 
techniques to the best of my knowledge.

I think maybe my point did not come through right.
The residual phase noise term refers more to the measurement setup 
rather than the addition of noise. The term is troubled in that way.
I wonder if additive phase noise is the best term, but it is indeed 
better. Also, as you say, we have noise conversion even in passive devices.

Cheers,
Magnus


On 07/14/2015 02:32 AM, KA2WEU at aol.com wrote:
> Dear Magnus,
> With your kind permission I (totally ) disagree with you . We make 10
> GHz oscillators which are almost getting close to the Poseidon Sapphire
> , but the post power amplifier
> at 10 Ghz has a much higher noise floor then the source . I have not yet
> solved the problem
> My new FSWP (R&S) Analyzer can measure down to - 190dBc/Hz .
> Wish me luck, Ulrich
> In a message dated 7/13/2015 5:29:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org writes:
>
>     Dear Ulrich,
>
>     Indeed. I think it's really not meaningful of saying it is additive,
>     just as it is not meaningful to say residual. Any buffering/amplifying
>     stage will add phase noise (and amplitude noise). We will have
>     conversion between AM and PM to some degree. For higher quality stuff,
>     the levels are very low such that qualitative measurements becomes very
>     hard, at least compared to oscillator measurements, also it is to it's
>     nature a differential measurement, so the topology will be different.
>
>     The most sensitive measurements I've seen use interferometric or
>     cross-correlation techniques, as Enrico shown. You have any further
>     insights?
>
>     Cheers,
>     Magnus
>
>     On 07/13/2015 03:10 PM, KA2WEU--- via time-nuts wrote:
>      > This is a misnomer, it should be called "additive"phase noise.
>     Think  of a
>      > "noise free" oscillator with a buffer stage. This stage because
>     of AM/PM
>      > conversion under large signal condition adds noise, makes the
>     over all system
>      > noisier..
>      >
>      > Ulrich Rohde
>      >
>      >
>      > In a message dated 7/13/2015 8:31:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
>      > timeok at timeok.it writes:
>      >
>      >
>      > Hi  all,
>      >
>      > I am looking on Wikipedia a description of the Residual Phase
>     Noise but
>      > this page do not exist.
>      > Can some one of the time-nuts expert  write a full description of
>     this
>      > physical aspect for Wikipedia?
>      >
>      > thanks,
>      >
>      > Luciano
>      > timeok at timeok.it
>      > www.timeok.it
>      >
>      >
>      > Message sent via Atmail Open -  http://atmail.org/
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