[time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent e4406a

Sun Jun 19 20:25:35 UTC 2016

Hi
I am also  using an E4406A to measure phase noise with john miles program-works great,but have been thinking if it would make any difference using an ultra low noise 10Mhz external reference for the E4406A?Have any of you tried this?
There are some interesting information about the E4406A at eevblog.
Hardy

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Today's Topics:

   1. Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent E4406A
      VSA Transmitter Tester? (Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd))
   2. Re: Hydrogen maser spin exchange (Bob Camp)
   3. Re: Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an	Agilent
      E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester? (Bob Camp)
   4. Re: Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an	Agilent
      E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester? (John Miles)
   5. Re: Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent
      E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
      (Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd))
   6. Re: Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an Agilent
      E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester? (jimlux)
   7. Re: Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an	Agilent
      E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester? (Bob Camp)
   8. Re: Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an	Agilent
      E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester? (John Miles)
   9. 3120A issues (Tom Knox)
  10. Re: 3120A issues (John Miles)
  11. Re: 3120A issues (jimlux)
  12. Re: 3120A issues (Tom Knox)
  13. Re: 3120A issues (John Miles)
  14. Re: 3120A issues (Bruce Griffiths)
  15. E4406A and feeding HF signals directly to the ADC (Timestep Nuts)
  16. Re: 3120A issues (Bob Camp)
  17. Re: 3120A issues (jimlux)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:11:09 +0100
From: "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)"
	<drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an
	Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
Message-ID:
	<CANX10hC0wDaTYdpBHW8ei+B+qjQB_AcPqRm0+ws0YTcg7xDZDQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
apparently they were very expensive.

Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234

and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.

I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
group.

Dave

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 15:02:02 -0400
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Hydrogen maser spin exchange
Message-ID: <DAB961B2-0C6B-4C9A-A903-1D7E75DB327D at n1k.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi

Far more than you *ever* wanted to know about state selectors:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19820012652.pdf

Bob

> On Jun 17, 2016, at 3:33 PM, Ole Petter Ronningen <opronningen at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi. Apologies for a long post.
> 
> I'm trying to read up on the "care and feeding of hydrogen masers". While
> they are conceptually simple from a distance, there's quite a bit going on
> in the quantum mechanics department when looked at up close. Somewhat
> frustratingly, I am not mentally equipped to really grasp the finer (or
> even coarser) points of that particular department. The topic of this post
> is the concept of spin exchange, and it's relation to cavity (auto) tuning.
> I've read papers on the subject, but I am having difficulties building a
> "workable intuition", so I turn to the group.
> 
> Here's what I think I understand, and I respectfully ask for corrections if
> I am way off base here..
> 
> Spin-exchange in a hydrogen maser happens when two atoms collide, and
> exchange spin, as it were.. (Hazy on the details here..) The number of
> spin-exchange collisions is directly proportional to the density of atoms
> in the cavity. These collisions *will* happen, but is a problem in hydrogen
> masers for two reasons: 1) it takes away energy from the cavity, resulting
> in lower signal output power, which degrades stability, and, 2) more
> significantly, it results in a frequency shift.
> 
> The frequency shift, as far as I can gather, is directly related to the
> cavity resonant frequency - there is no way to *stop* spin exchange taking
> place (apart from reducing the hydrogen density to a level where collisions
> are rare, in which case the density will be too low for oscillation to take
> place), but it is possible to reduce the impact the spin exchange has on
> the output frequency.
> 
> While the resonant frequency obviously influences the output power of the
> maser cavity, the "mistuning" of the cavity also increases the effect spin
> exchange has. In other words, in a perfectly tuned cavity, spin exchange
> does not result in a frequency shift. In a badly tuned cavity, increasing
> or decreasing the hydrogen flux (thereby increasing or decreasing the
> number of collisions taking place) results in a corresponding
> increase/decrease of the output frequency. Since the cavity ages, and the
> cavity resonant frequency follows that aging, the long term stability of
> the maser is degraded unless the aging can be compensated for. Which is
> what cavity auto-tuning is all about.
> 
> From my understanding, there are a few ways to implement cavity auto-tuning:
> 1. From the above, it follows that a modulation of the hydrogen flux into a
> mis-tuned cavity will result in a frequency shift following the modulation
> frequency. Using a stable reference, this shift can be measured, and
> corrections can be made to the cavity varactor voltage. Once the output
> frequency no longer shifts in response to the changes in hydrogen flux, the
> cavity is correctly tuned.
> 
> 2. It is also possible to modulate the cavity varactor voltage. By
> measuring the output power of the cavity, an error signal can be obtained
> and used to correct the average varactor voltage. A square wave of i.e.
> 100hz, centered on the approximate correct varactor voltate is put in the
> varactor, and cavity output power is measured. If the output power measured
> on the "low" of the square wave is lower than the signal measured when the
> "high", lower the offset by some mV, and vice versa. Suitable filtering
> would of course be required.
> 
> The idea is that this method should not result in appreciable degradation
> of the short/medium term stability of the maser, because the frequency of
> the atoms interacting with the electromagnetic field in the maser cavity
> takes time to respond to the changes in the resonant frequency, but the
> output power responds "instantly". (Hazy on those details as well..) By
> modulating the cavity varactor voltage (much) faster that the time constant
> of the maser cavity, the modulation is effectively filtered out.
> 
> I am very interested in this method, as it seems to me that it would be
> easy (feasible) to retrofit this to older masers never equipped with cavity
> auto tuning.
> 
> There is at least one more way, which involves injecting a signal into the
> maser cavity through a second coupling loop. At least one vendor I know of
> does this in their newest design. I do not understand even the basics of
> this method.
> 
> Any insights and/or corrections of my understanding is most welcome.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ole
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 15:05:30 -0400
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an
	Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
Message-ID: <EA36B9B0-F8D4-4710-8A6B-5632323281A5 at n1k.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hi

The Symmetricom Time Pod is pretty much the lowest cost commercial / newl “low phase noise” measurement instrument. You can find all sorts
of older stuff on auction sites in who knows what shape. The HP 3048 is the granddaddy of them all. 

Bob

> On Jun 18, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
> they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
> phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
> apparently they were very expensive.
> 
> Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS
> 
> http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234
> 
> and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
> Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
> expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
> more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.
> 
> I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
> around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
> noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
> supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
> group.
> 
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 13:01:59 -0700
From: "John Miles" <john at miles.io>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an
	Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
Message-ID: <006801d1c99c$47718c40$d654a4c0$@miles.io>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"

> and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
> Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
> expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
> more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.

It appears that Leo's using a notch filter to remove the carrier before measuring it with the E4406A, so it's not quite a plug-and-play sort of measurement.  But yes, the E4406A is a really cool piece of gear given the prices they sell for.  It's not meant to be a general-purpose spectrum analyzer -- and Agilent went well out of their way to make sure of that -- but it can still handle many common SA measurement tasks including SSB noise.

The plot on that page came from my freeware phase noise app from http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/pn.htm , which is a (very) distant ancestor of TimeLab.  The last two FAQ entries at http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/faq.htm offer some hints for suppressed-carrier measurements that can be used with the E4406A and other analyzers.  There's nothing special about the E4406A with respect to this type of measurement, except that it's an unusually cost-effective way to get the job done.  

I've also heard of people opening up the E4406A and feeding HF signals directly to the ADC, eliminating the LO noise contribution but not the ADC's white noise, 1/f noise, or clock jitter.

> I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
> around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
> noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
> supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
> group.

The E5052A/B's most immediate predecessor was probably the HP 4352A/B.  They were made specifically for VCO and PLL transient analysis and noise measurement, and they've been selling in the $1K-$3K neighborhood for several years.  Their measurement floor is better than a conventional spectrum analyzer, but still not adequate for "time nuts"-class measurements on 10 MHz sources. 

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:25:33 +0100
From: "Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)"
	<drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an
	Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
Message-ID:
	<CANX10hDN1jxnsduVRuRu8_gKfCHRe7=_P6QqK+PDF0POJ7fHfw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 18 June 2016 at 21:01, John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:

> > and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was
> an
> > Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
> > expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which
> is
> > more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.
>
> It appears that Leo's using a notch filter to remove the carrier before
> measuring it with the E4406A, so it's not quite a plug-and-play sort of
> measurement.  But yes, the E4406A is a really cool piece of gear given the
> prices they sell for.  It's not meant to be a general-purpose spectrum
> analyzer -- and Agilent went well out of their way to make sure of that --
> but it can still handle many common SA measurement tasks including SSB
> noise.
>

Thank you. In which case it may or may not be better than  the HP 70000
series SA I have, consisting of:

* 70004A display,
* 70905A 50 kHz to 22 RF GHz front end
* 70902A (10 Hz to 300 kHz) IF
* 70903A (100 kHz to 3 MHz) IF
* 70310A precision frequency reference.
+ some irrelevant bits.

I was not looking for a general purchase SA, as I have one of them already.

> The plot on that page came from my freeware phase noise app from
> http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/pn.htm , which is a (very) distant ancestor of
> TimeLab.  The last two FAQ entries at http://www.ke5fx.com/gpib/faq.htm
> offer some hints for suppressed-carrier measurements that can be used with
> the E4406A and other analyzers.  There's nothing special about the E4406A
> with respect to this type of measurement, except that it's an unusually
> cost-effective way to get the job done.
>

I note your software works with the HP 70000 too. As I say, I already have
one of them, but was thinking the E4406A would be a worthwhile addition.
But perhaps not in that case. Although maybe it will outperform my 70000
system for phase noise measurements. I expect you will know the answer to
that.

BTW, the link to the  "Wenzel Associates, BluePhase 1000 Phase Noise Test
System Operations Manual
<http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles1/BP1000Manual/BP_1000_v101_2_.pdf> (30
pages, 1.3 MB)" PDF is broken.

> The E5052A/B's most immediate predecessor was probably the HP 4352A/B.
> They were made specifically for VCO and PLL transient analysis and noise
> measurement, and they've been selling in the $1K-$3K

It seems the HP 4352Bs are available for a little under $1000 now, but are
but still twice the price of a E4406A.

neighborhood for several years.  Their measurement floor is better than a
> conventional spectrum analyzer, but still not adequate for "time
> nuts"-class measurements on 10 MHz sources.
>

OK, I will give this idea a miss. I was actually looking to compare 116 MHz
oscillators. but I guess the same principles apply.

Cheers John.

>
> -- john, KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
>

Dave, G8WRB

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 15:11:09 -0700
From: jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an
	Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
Message-ID: <e9cc5514-e681-312d-235f-f03e2cd36caa at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 6/18/16 12:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
>
> The Symmetricom Time Pod is pretty much the lowest cost commercial / newl “low phase noise” measurement instrument. You can find all sorts
> of older stuff on auction sites in who knows what shape. The HP 3048 is the granddaddy of them all.
>

the time pod is about 8-9k (I just got a quote on one).

I don't think the 4406 is inherently very quiet, if they're making close 
in measurements, they may have another quiet source to drive it from, or 
they are beating the unit under test against a quiet reference, and just 
using the 4406 to look at the IF.

> Bob
>
>> On Jun 18, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
>> they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
>> phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
>> apparently they were very expensive.
>>
>> Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS
>>
>> http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234
>>
>> and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
>> Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
>> expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
>> more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.
>>
>> I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
>> around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
>> noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
>> supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
>> group.
>>
>> Dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:02:47 -0400
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an
	Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
Message-ID: <EF3F08A5-9F96-46FC-AD67-B848AE50CB14 at n1k.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

HI

It sort of depends on what offset frequency you are looking at. If you are after very wide band stuff at very low levels, 
the notch filter / spectrum analyzer approach has always been a good one. You may or may not need a low noise 
amp after the notch depending on the analyzer. Your notch may need to be more deep with some analyzers. It’s 
been used since at least the 1960’s. I would not be surprised to find it goes back a bit further than that. 

One basic assumption with the notch approach:

You are measuring total noise. Both the AM noise and PM noise go past the notch and into the analyzer. The fundamental
assumption is that out there the noise is equally distributed between AM and PM. There would be a paper in it if you
can prove that’s not the case. 

Lots of fun !!

Bob

> On Jun 18, 2016, at 6:11 PM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 6/18/16 12:05 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The Symmetricom Time Pod is pretty much the lowest cost commercial / newl “low phase noise” measurement instrument. You can find all sorts
>> of older stuff on auction sites in who knows what shape. The HP 3048 is the granddaddy of them all.
>> 
> 
> the time pod is about 8-9k (I just got a quote on one).
> 
> I don't think the 4406 is inherently very quiet, if they're making close in measurements, they may have another quiet source to drive it from, or they are beating the unit under test against a quiet reference, and just using the 4406 to look at the IF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jun 18, 2016, at 12:11 PM, Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd) <drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I was looking at some high end commercial low noise oscillators and see
>>> they use instrument like the Agilent E5052B signal source analyzer for
>>> phase noise measurements. When I looked for them on eBay, it soon because
>>> apparently they were very expensive.
>>> 
>>> Then I see this oscillator that locks to GPS
>>> 
>>> http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=234
>>> 
>>> and looked at what was used to make the phase noise measurements. It was an
>>> Agilent E4406A. The noise floor is nowhere near as low as the more
>>> expensive instruments, but the E4406A is available for under $500, which is
>>> more than two orders of magnitudes cheaper than an E5052B.
>>> 
>>> I'm wondering if there are other more suitable commercial instruments
>>> around that don't cost a fortune, yet would allow lower levels of phase
>>> noise to be measured. I tend to preference HP/Agilent kit, as it is better
>>> supported, both by the manufacturer and places like the HP/Agilent Yahoo
>>> group.
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 17:03:37 -0700
From: "John Miles" <john at miles.io>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Phase noise measurements on the cheap with an
	Agilent E4406A VSA Transmitter Tester?
Message-ID: <00bd01d1c9be$0837aa10$18a6fe30$@miles.io>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"

> I note your software works with the HP 70000 too. As I say, I already have
> one of them, but was thinking the E4406A would be a worthwhile addition.
> But perhaps not in that case. Although maybe it will outperform my 70000
> system for phase noise measurements. I expect you will know the answer to
> that.

The E4406A will let you measure all the way down to 1 Hz from the carrier, and is quieter past 100 kHz.  And it's faster, being FFT-based.  Overall, though, their LO noise floors aren't that different.  They both need a lot of help to perform serious PN measurements.

> BTW, the link to the  "Wenzel Associates, BluePhase 1000 Phase Noise Test
> System Operations Manual
> <http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles1/BP1000Manual/BP_1000_v101_2_.pdf> (30
> pages, 1.3 MB)" PDF is broken.

Thanks -- coincidentally, someone else just reported that one a few days ago.  I've fixed it but haven't updated it on the server yet.  It's safe to say there are plenty of other broken links on my site, as some of those pages are over 10 years old now.  

> OK, I will give this idea a miss. I was actually looking to compare 116 MHz
> oscillators. but I guess the same principles apply.

Sadly, there are few good answers there other than "build a quadrature PLL."

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 01:17:27 +0000
From: Tom Knox <actast at hotmail.com>
To: Time-Nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID:
	<SN1PR16MB0318E59341DEB101D42C29E0DF290 at SN1PR16MB0318.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping 3120A Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?

Thanks;

Thomas Knox

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:00:45 -0700
From: "John Miles" <john at miles.io>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID: <00d301d1c9d6$c6e9a400$54bcec00$@miles.io>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Knox
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 6:17 PM
> To: Time-Nuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
> 
> Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping 3120A
> Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
> 

It looks like they're still advertising the 3120A on their site.  I'm pretty far out of the loop at this point, but if they're having production-test problems, I haven't heard anything about them at all -- and I normally would, if they're having problems passing the factory tests.  Is that what you meant by "to spec?"

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:30:17 -0700
From: jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID: <90c141ed-e884-0708-7184-7b2735f76ed4 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 6/18/16 6:17 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping 3120A Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
>
They're shipping them.. I got quoted a 12 week delivery in April, $9k 
for the box, about $12k-15k for the software, although I find that the 
Microsemi site doesn't really explain what the various software options are.

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 04:50:10 +0000
From: Tom Knox <actast at hotmail.com>
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID:
	<SN1PR16MB03180A55303AF69842856571DF290 at SN1PR16MB0318.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi All;

This was the email a friend recently received.

The 3120A product is currently on hold until Microsemi implements a solution.  If you would like for Microsemi to sell this 3120A product to you and process your purchase order -Sales Order notwithstanding that these products do not meet published specifications, please reply to this email that you acknowledge and understand these products may be non-conforming and agree to purchase these non-conforming products in accordance with the terms hereof.  Microsemi's terms and conditions, which were provided to you in our sales order acknowledgment and which can also be found on http://www.microsemi.com/terms-a-conditions, will govern the sales of our products and this Order.  In addition and notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in such terms, these 3120A products come only with our standard replacement warranty of twelve (12) months.  Accordingly, Microsemi will provide you with a replacement product upon receipt from you of the non-conforming product within the above twelve
  (12) months period, which is your exclusive remedy and Microsemi's exclusive liability for any claims in connection with these products and Order, howsoever arising.  Please reply with your acknowledgement.

Microsemi<http://www.microsemi.com/terms-a-conditions>
www.microsemi.com
Microsemi Corporation (Nasdaq: MSCC) offers a comprehensive portfolio of semiconductor and system solutions for aerospace & defense, communications, data center and ...

If we do not receive your acknowledgement, Microsemi will keep your order in our backlog, and ship when we have implemented a solution that allows us to meet the RoHS criteria and apply the CE mark and label."

Not really any details onnthe issue.

Thanks

Thomas Knox

________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> on behalf of John Miles <john at miles.io>
Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 9:00 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Knox
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 6:17 PM
> To: Time-Nuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
>
> Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping 3120A
> Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
>

It looks like they're still advertising the 3120A on their site.  I'm pretty far out of the loop at this point, but if they're having production-test problems, I haven't heard anything about them at all -- and I normally would, if they're having problems passing the factory tests.  Is that what you meant by "to spec?"

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2016 22:41:49 -0700
From: "John Miles" <john at miles.io>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID: <00da01d1c9ed$47289890$d579c9b0$@miles.io>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8"

> On 6/18/16 6:17 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> > Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping
> 3120A Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
> >
> They're shipping them.. I got quoted a 12 week delivery in April, $9k
> for the box, about $12k-15k for the software, although I find that the
> Microsemi site doesn't really explain what the various software options are.
> 

Briefly --

'Signal Statistics' = you can display the non-ADEV deviation types (MDEV, HDEV, TDEV) and enable the various integrated noise/jitter options for display in the legend table below the plot 

'AM Noise' = you can enable AM noise measurements in the acquisition dialog

'Frequency Counter' = you can display the high-precision frequency-count chart alongside a Frequency Difference plot

'Mask Test' = you can display pass/fail status and margin values in the legend table below the plot.  Mask limit lines can be displayed on the plot without this option, but the program won't evaluate them (or allow automated test scripts to access them) without it. 

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:46:21 +0000 (UTC)
From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID:
	<177544012.5642659.1466325981527.JavaMail.yahoo at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

It almost sounds like something has been found not to be ROHS compliant.Could be as simple as the alodined (conventional process uses hexavalent chromium ) case or perhaps a non ROHS part was used.
Bruce

    On Sunday, 19 June 2016 8:02 PM, John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:

 > On 6/18/16 6:17 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
> > Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping
> 3120A Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
> >
> They're shipping them.. I got quoted a 12 week delivery in April, $9k
> for the box, about $12k-15k for the software, although I find that the
> Microsemi site doesn't really explain what the various software options are.
> 

Briefly --

'Signal Statistics' = you can display the non-ADEV deviation types (MDEV, HDEV, TDEV) and enable the various integrated noise/jitter options for display in the legend table below the plot 

'AM Noise' = you can enable AM noise measurements in the acquisition dialog

'Frequency Counter' = you can display the high-precision frequency-count chart alongside a Frequency Difference plot

'Mask Test' = you can display pass/fail status and margin values in the legend table below the plot.  Mask limit lines can be displayed on the plot without this option, but the program won't evaluate them (or allow automated test scripts to access them) without it. 

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 09:19:32 +0100
From: "Timestep Nuts" <nuts at time-step.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
	<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] E4406A and feeding HF signals directly to the ADC
Message-ID: <FCFF145078764F29A62CAB0D9801F3F7 at VirtualXP18226>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

>From an earlier post:

"E4406A and feeding HF signals directly to the ADC"

Has anyone here done that ?

Thanks

Dave

------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:45:51 -0400
From: Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>, Discussion of
	precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID: <B838BBB6-D838-4A41-8424-53B5630B227F at n1k.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Hi

The key sentence does appear to be the last one in the email they sent. There are a lot of ways
to trip over the ROHS stuff. The guessing game contest now does turn into a “pick a part” exercise.
There are an enormous number of mistakes that somebody / somewhere in the supply chain could 
have made…

Since it appears to be CE related, I would bet it is a ROHS phase in issue. Thus they still ship to the
US, but not to Europe. So, what’s different on ROHS in the US vs Europe this week that wasn’t different say a 
year ago?

Bob

> On Jun 19, 2016, at 4:46 AM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> It almost sounds like something has been found not to be ROHS compliant.Could be as simple as the alodined (conventional process uses hexavalent chromium ) case or perhaps a non ROHS part was used.
> Bruce
> 
> 
>    On Sunday, 19 June 2016 8:02 PM, John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 6/18/16 6:17 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping
>> 3120A Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
>>> 
>> They're shipping them.. I got quoted a 12 week delivery in April, $9k
>> for the box, about $12k-15k for the software, although I find that the
>> Microsemi site doesn't really explain what the various software options are.
>> 
> 
> Briefly --
> 
> 'Signal Statistics' = you can display the non-ADEV deviation types (MDEV, HDEV, TDEV) and enable the various integrated noise/jitter options for display in the legend table below the plot 
> 
> 'AM Noise' = you can enable AM noise measurements in the acquisition dialog
> 
> 'Frequency Counter' = you can display the high-precision frequency-count chart alongside a Frequency Difference plot
> 
> 'Mask Test' = you can display pass/fail status and margin values in the legend table below the plot.  Mask limit lines can be displayed on the plot without this option, but the program won't evaluate them (or allow automated test scripts to access them) without it. 
> 
> -- john, KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 06:26:58 -0700
From: jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net>
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 3120A issues
Message-ID: <4807a593-1aa1-6b2e-3908-5799b73808e4 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 6/18/16 10:41 PM, John Miles wrote:
>> On 6/18/16 6:17 PM, Tom Knox wrote:
>>> Does anyone have any insight as to why Microsemi has stopped shipping
>> 3120A Phase Noise test sets  beside that they are not to spec?
>>>
>> They're shipping them.. I got quoted a 12 week delivery in April, $9k
>> for the box, about $12k-15k for the software, although I find that the
>> Microsemi site doesn't really explain what the various software options are.
>>
>
> Briefly --
>
> 'Signal Statistics' = you can display the non-ADEV deviation types (MDEV, HDEV, TDEV) and enable the various integrated noise/jitter options for display in the legend table below the plot
>
> 'AM Noise' = you can enable AM noise measurements in the acquisition dialog
>
> 'Frequency Counter' = you can display the high-precision frequency-count chart alongside a Frequency Difference plot
>
> 'Mask Test' = you can display pass/fail status and margin values in the legend table below the plot.  Mask limit lines can be displayed on the plot without this option, but the program won't evaluate them (or allow automated test scripts to access them) without it.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
>
>

Tnx

------------------------------

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------------------------------

End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 143, Issue 29
******************************************

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