[time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for HP-531xx counters

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

A splitter with a phase error of < 1 degree at exactly 10 MHz is pretty simple to build. It’s mostly 
a matter of how much you want to spend on the splitter. Network analyzers can be calibrated to 
measure it. You can poke at a part to get it “right”. The same thing is true on phase shifters. As
you add up mismatch errors things get a bit weird, but it’s a single frequency not broadband. 
This is the old HP buying parts for a calibrator. Who knows what the budget was, or how much
thought went into it.

Bob

> On Jul 9, 2017, at 12:41 AM, Orin Eman <orin.eman at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> FWIW, the "Theory" section here may help:
> 
> http://www.g8wrb.org/data///HP/Better_than_100_ps_Accuracy_in_HP_5370B_Time_Interval_Measurements_Through_Bias_Error_Reduction.pdf
> 
> Phase errors through the splitters seem to be taken into account.
> 
> The J06-59992A manual merely claims 100ps absolute accuracy is possible
> with the 5370A/B.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jul 8, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Based on a quick read of the use of the device, they seem to be relying on
>> it to be << 100 ps
>> off from “ideal”.  How much it being non-ideal matters …. not clear. If
>> you are correcting for various errors
>> and eliminating both unknown source errors and destination errors it
>> likely gets messy.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:14 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at leapsecond.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I knew we had talked about this before:
>>> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2006-August/021649.html
>>> 
>>> The J06-59992A manual, schematic, app note, and patent are here:
>>> http://rubidium.dyndns.org/~magnus/instruments/hp/J06-59992A/
>>> 
>>> It was designed for the hp 5370 (20 ps) so perhaps the tolerances are
>> less stringent if only used for hp 53132 (150 ps). Maybe one of you RF guys
>> can tell from the schematic?
>>> 
>>> Mark writes:
>>>> Yes, they do show up...  but usually for big-ish bucks.   I want to
>> build a small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
>>> 
>>> I don't recall them being expensive at all, just unusual. But making a
>> modern one for time nuts is a great idea -- both 5370 and 53131/53132
>> users. Also, when someone gets around to creating a smart analog front-end
>> to John's TAPR TICC board, your 59992A clone will come in handy.
>>> 
>>> Note also this recent document by Bill Riley:
>>> 
>>> http://www.stable32.com/A%20High-Resolution%20Time%
>> 20Interval%20Counter%20Using%20the%20TAPR%20TADD-2%20and%
>> 20TICC%20Modules.pdf
>>> 
>>> Hal writes:
>>>> What does "good" mean?
>>>> I'd expect the variations due to power or temperature would be easy to
>> measure.
>>>> Delay through classic CMOS is linear with absolute temperature and
>> inverse linear with supply voltage.
>>> 
>>> When John created the TAPR TADD-2-mini board I tested the jitter using a
>> TimePod (integrated phase noise mode). I'm looking for the web page or
>> email now, but I recall it was under 2 ps. This is partly due to the fact
>> that the PIC 12F is a fully synchronous MCU; no tricks with double clock
>> edges or PLL's.
>>> 
>>> /tvb
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
>>> To: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>; "Discussion of precise time and
>> frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2017 4:48 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] J06 HP-59992A time interval calibrator for
>> HP-531xx counters
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> A run of the mill 2 way power splitter has better than 10ps phase
>> matching at 100MHz there are few digital devices that offer that degree of
>> matching at best they are usually 10x worse.
>>>> 
>>>> Bruce
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>   On 09 July 2017 at 06:58 Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>   Yes, they do show up... but usually for big-ish bucks. I want to
>> build a small affordable replacement that anybody with a 531xx can have.
>>>>> 
>>>>>   My design is currently leaning towards a board with the clock
>> generator and a 5V reference for the gain calibration (they spec 5V +/-
>> 1mV). I was going to use a couple of 2P4T slide switches to route open
>> circuit, 5V, normal clock, and inverted clock to the two output connectors.
>>>>> 
>>>>>   I think the cost to build would be in the $20 range and fit on a
>> 2x2" or so circuit board... certainly more attractive than a $500 big
>> ancient box with unobtainium parts in it. The board should be able to
>> perform all the calibration steps for the counter.
>>>>> 
>>>>>   I don't think the signal requirements are super critical. They are
>> using 1:2 splitters and splitter/180 degree phase shifters and relays to
>> generate the output signals passively from the inputs. I think a digital
>> clock generator would be a LOT more accurate than those phase shifters.
>>>>> 
>>>>>   ----------------
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>       Actually, you can get J06 HP-59992A calibrators on eBay.
>>>>>> 
>>> 
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