[time-nuts] GPS Antenna Feed Line Decision
Bob kb8tq
kb8tq at n1k.org
Mon Sep 4 21:26:10 UTC 2017
Hi
A lot depends on just which outfit you buy your attenuators from. There
certainly *are* outfits out there that supply you just over 20 db RL when
the spec is 20. They also don’t charge very much for their attenuators ….
Bob
> On Sep 4, 2017, at 4:53 PM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> On 9/4/17 1:18 PM, Wes wrote:
>>
>>
>> If these are COTS attenuators, their own return loss is unlikely to be
>> 40 dB. In fact grabbing an old HP catalog off my bookshelf (I'm dating
>> myself) I see a typical type N attenuator specified as 1.2 VSWR (~21 dB
>> RL). I went on a quick "shopping" trip looking for an L-band, type N
>> bias tee. I'll spare you the links, but typically they are also rated
>> at 1.2 VSWR.
>>
>
> Be careful, that's the "catalog spec" which means "what we can inexpensively measure"..
>
> It's like SMA connectors, which are specified at 1.05:1 or 1.1:1 and <0.3dB loss.
> https://www.amphenolrf.com/connectors/sma.html
>
>
> In reality, they are a LOT better, it's just that measuring that in a production environment is tough.
> I'd not want to set up a manufacturing test set that measured loss with an uncertainty of 0.01 dB.
>
> I'll point folks to:
> Jesch's paper in 1976
>
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6312234/
>
>
>
> and then Maury
> https://www.maurymw.com/pdf/datasheets/5A-021.pdf
>
> Someone at Maury did a paper which I can't find right now where they measured a bunch of SMA connectors over hundreds if not thousands of mate/demate cycles.
>
>
> RF cafe has a nice summary
> http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/Joe-Cahak/rf-connectors-cables-joe-cahak-6-2014.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Perhaps NIST, with an unlimited supply of tax money, splurged and
>> manufactured bias tees with >40 dB RL. Maybe they did the same with the
>> attenuators. We'll never know because they didn't provide an equipment
>> list or a measurement procedure. They said nothing about the cable
>> either, other than they started with RG-58 and replaced it with "better"
>> cable.
>
> But you could probably send an email to the author and ask. NIST, like JPL, is one of those places where people work forever. Tom Otoshi, who wrote a report on N connectors in 1963 cited by Maury, above, still works at JPL (I think.. I confess I haven't seen him recently, he might have retired, but he was certainly around in the last 10 years), and given the span of years, that N connector work was probably when he was a just out of school engineer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> A few words about cable, since that is what this discussion is all
>> about. Cable, regardless of type and manufacturer, has its own RL, also
>> known in that business as Structural Return Loss (SRL) See:
>> https://www.belden.com/docs/upload/hdcarltp.pdf and
>> http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/E206COMPTEST_METHOD.pdf.
>>
>> At least the authors admit, "Thus far we have seen little difference in
>> the data."
>>
>> Wes
>>
>>
>> On 9/3/2017 3:02 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
>>> For precision timing measurements, I would think that there would be
>>> concern about the double reflections of a badly mismatched low loss
>>> transmission line (such as using 75 ohm line in a 50 ohm environment).
>>> The re-reflected signal will act similar to multipath (as a delayed
>>> aggressor) on all satellite signals equally. The impedance mismatch
>>> delayed reflection aggressor could aggravate timing errors due to
>>> changes in temperature or stress in the cable. Whether this is important
>>> for you depends on how time-nutty you want to get.
>>>
>>> See these papers:
>>>
>>> Effects of Antenna Cables on GPS Timing Receivers:
>>> http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/1384.pdf
>>>
>>> Absolute Calibration of a Geodetic Time Transfer System:
>>> http://xenon.colorado.edu/paperIrevise2.pdf
>>> --
>>> Bill Byrom N5BB
>>>
>>
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