[time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress

Tue Aug 28 02:58:39 UTC 2018

OK moving along.
Do have the 9.6 MHz vectron VTO all set up and working well. It outputs a 3
V clipped sine wave, cleaned up with a single 2N3904 transistor to a 74ls14
inverter. Yup going to use TTL as it turns out I did not have
correct/reasonable CMOS counters. So much for low power. Will feed a 74ls93
div 16 and then a 74ls90 div 10. The VTO is tunable and behaves well enough
with temperature change.

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:07 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> 60,000 / 1,000,000 = 0.06
>
> Thus, 1 ppm at 60KHz is 0.06 Hz
>
> Nothing magic about it.
>
> I believe you will find that all the filters are fairly similar in minimum
> bandwidth. Some
> may have steeper skirts than others. You can only get just so narrow and
> still
> pass the sidebands from the AM modulation. If you mess up the sidebands,
> you mess up the AM demodulation. That gets you into timing errors.
>
> If you take a look at the AM modulation “pattern” the narrowest element is
> 0.2
> seconds. That gets you to 1/ 0.2 = 5 Hz. Since it’s square wave
> modulation, you
> need to pass a bit more than the first sideband in the series. Something
> up in the
> two or three range is probably the point it gets wonky from missing
> information.
> Two harmonics gets you to 10Hz and 20Hz bandwidth. Three harmonics gets
> you to
> 15 Hz and 30 Hz minimum bandwidth.
>
> At 60 KHz, even with large(fish) blanks, you are still stuck with crystals
> that have crazy
> temperature coefficients. The Q goes up, but you still get a parabolic
> curve that moves
> quite a bit compared to an AT.
>
> Lots of fun !!!
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> > On Aug 27, 2018, at 6:05 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Appreciate the comments.
> > But back to the problem at hand.
> > Having a replacement for wwvb that drives cheapy wall clocks and icing on
> > the cake allowing phase tracking clocks to decode the time.
> > Fix the good clocks and the cheapies work. That said not wanting to get
> > crazy here.
> >
> > I measured the Spectracoms and the truetimes. A signal is good if it is
> +/-
> > .6 Hz from 60 KHz.
> > These good receivers have very sharp large crystals as filters and I new
> > they were sharp. I believe the cheapies are a bit wider.
> > I'll have to measure them.
> > To work a 6 Mhz oscillator must be within +/- 60 Hz since I am dividing
> by
> > 100.
> > Using the ppm calc at jitterlabs. The 60KHz +/- .6 Hz = .6ppm
> > Using the jitterlab calc again it seems a 100 ppm gives +/- 60 Hz.
> > Just maybe thats not as hard as I thought to achieve. Need to look and
> see
> > whats out there tcxo wise.
> > Looking for a temp range of 55-80 since its in a home environment.
> >
> > Regards
> > Paul.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> The temperature spec on a typical 60 KHz crystal is in the 100’s of ppm
> >> range. The temperature coefficient can hit multiple ppm / C at fairly
> >> rational
> >> temperatures.  That all adds on top of the set tolerance of the crystal.
> >> Simply
> >> to keep it passing signal while the room changes temperature would
> require
> >> a
> >> bandwidth into the 10’s of Hz.
> >>
> >> For reasonable loss in the filter you would want a Ql/Qu ratio of at
> least
> >> ten …
> >> again back into the 10’s of Hz range.
> >>
> >> The gotcha of course is that some of the tolerance stacks up all in one
> >> direction.
> >> You might pass 20 Hz high just fine, but nuke 2 Hz low on this or that
> >> device.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Aug 27, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Tim Shoppa <tshoppa at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The consumer WWVB wall clocks use a single 60kHz crystal as a front end
> >>> filter (not as an oscillator).
> >>>
> >>> Unloaded Q of a small tuning fork crystal is often 30,000 or so. (You
> can
> >>> actually observe this order of magnitude when a 32kHz crystal used in
> an
> >>> oscillator - remove power and the crystal continues vibrating for a
> >> couple
> >>> seconds before dying off.).
> >>>
> >>> This gives expected bandwidth of WWVB front end crystal filter as a
> more
> >>> than a couple Hz. Well, that should be expected too, because they are
> >>> demodulating a time code with a 1 bit per second data rate using
> >> amplitude
> >>> modulated pulses requiring differentiating 0.2s pulses from 0.8s
> pulses.
> >>> And anyway these tuning fork crystals are only specified to 20 or 30
> ppm.
> >>>
> >>> It's only a single pole filter so if a WWVB emulator were 10Hz off and
> >>> "loud", I'm sure the clock will respond just fine.
> >>>
> >>> Now, if this is a fancy-pants consumer WWVB wall clock that also
> expects
> >>> the phase shift keying (not just amplitude keying) then I have no idea
> >> how
> >>> it'll respond to just plain amplitude keying for the time code. You
> might
> >>> think the WWVB BPSK chip will respond to loud and clear amplitude
> >>> modulation but I have no experience with this. Nor do I even know if a
> >>> single consumer clock was ever sold with BPSK ability.
> >>>
> >>> Tim N3QE
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 10:40 AM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> One Hertz out of a million Hertz is one part out of a million parts.
> >>>>
> >>>> One Hertz out of 100,000 Hertz is ten parts per million.
> >>>>
> >>>> One Hz out of 10KHz is 100 PPM.
> >>>>
> >>>> One Hertz out of 60,000 Hertz is 16.667 parts per million.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are running into a device that swings it’s OCXO to lock to the
> >>>> incoming signal,
> >>>> it’s unlikely that the OCXO has a very wide tuning range. Numbers in
> the
> >>>> sub half ppm
> >>>> range are not uncommon.
> >>>>
> >>>> So - what are we trying to do? If it’s just feeding the cheap wall
> >> clock,
> >>>> they aren’t phase locking
> >>>> an OCXO. The vast majority of them just want to do AM reception. If
> this
> >>>> is going to feed
> >>>> TimeNuts gear for various purposes then indeed locking up an OCXO may
> be
> >>>> part of
> >>>> the deal.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 27, 2018, at 10:19 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> OK you sort of lost me here. 16 PPM would be great I might find
> >> something
> >>>>> that works without a power sucking oven.
> >>>>> But Bob mentioned online calculators and there are PPM calculators.
> Mr
> >>>>> Google seems to know all.
> >>>>> That said the lock range of any of the professional receivers is
> tight.
> >>>> +/-
> >>>>> .6 Hz. Used a HP 3336 gen and moved up and down by .1 Hz to figure
> out
> >>>> the
> >>>>> lock range. 3336 locked to GPSDO.
> >>>>> I may have used the calculator wrong but at 60 KHz it seems like its
> >> .05
> >>>>> PPM or was it .5ppm. Anyhow don't like the answer.
> >>>>> I have numbers of 6 MHz xtals and also clock gens. The clock gens
> were
> >>>> off
> >>>>> by 5Hz when divided down and out of the lock range. It is interesting
> >>>> that
> >>>>> all 3 were of by different amounts but all negative. These are not
> >> TCXOs.
> >>>>> A home brew xtal oscillator will not have temperature compensation.
> >>>>> So this has presented a bit more of a challenge then hoped for.
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Mike Feher <mfeher at eozinc.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Simple error. It is 1.667. 73 - Mike
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mike B. Feher, N4FS
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 89 Arnold Blvd.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Howell NJ 07731
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 848-245-9115
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at lists.febo.com> On Behalf Of Bob
> >>>> kb8tq
> >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2018 6:34 PM
> >>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> >>>>>> time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Chronverter update progress
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well …. 1Hz at 60KHz is …. errr … (off to Google Calc …) …. 16.67
> ppm.
> >>>>>> That’s a pretty major lock range for a TCXO. It’s likely > 10X what
> an
> >>>> OCXO
> >>>>>> will do. What the bare crystal in a watch will do … who knows.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Aug 26, 2018, at 5:52 PM, paul swed < <mailto:
> paulswedb at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>>>> paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Looks like the signal has to be with in 1 hz. I new it was tight.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Need a bit more experimentation across the several receivers though
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> they all use the same approach with a sharp Xtal filter.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:24 PM, paul swed < <mailto:
> >>>> paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My mistake the chronverter uses a pic 12f1840.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:23 PM, paul swed < <mailto:
> >>>>>> paulswedb at gmail.com> paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Have to look at what oscillators and crystals I have then a
> divide.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Thats old style and most likely the junk box has everything.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Have to look in my box of tricks as I built several chains for
> the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> de-psk-er experiments.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Have to agree on the micro the chronverter uses a pIC 12F64 as I
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> recall and it has quite a nice set of dividers in it. Just not an
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> external crystal input so a better oscillator can be used.
> Getting
> >>>>>> lazy these days.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I have some number of tcxos from a company called vectron.
> Several
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> cards of each. Can't imagine how I came by those.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> :-) Believe the lowest freq was 12 MHz.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Paul.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 8:07 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto:
> kb8tq at n1k.org
> >>>
> >>>>>> kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> A pretty simple modest Q tuned circuit on the output of a gate
> >> will
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> turn the square wave into a sine. Not much to it since there
> are a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> lot of power supply components out there that work fine at 60
> KHz.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In order to get a stable 60KHz, a divider is the way to go. I’d
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> probably use one that’s built into an MCU as part of a timer or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> something similar.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 7:00 PM, paul swed < <mailto:
> >>>> paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >>>>>> paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bob The generator sig is 60 Khz sinewave.but as a I build up a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> divider chain and such your idea makes great sense.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Then filter to 60 KHz.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> But I see the issue with the Chronverter carrier its 120-150 Hz
> >>>> high.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bounces around a fair amount.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> There could be a secondary issue in that the carrier may not
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> actually
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> be
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> phase stable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It really doesn't matter as for the Truetimes and Spectracoms
> its
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> simply
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> not good enough.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I still need to try the cheapy clocks as that is what it was
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> intended
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> for.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Not throwing stones as so much of what it does saves me a bunch
> >> of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> coding
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> and doing exactly what Dave did.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 5:31 PM, Bob kb8tq < <mailto:
> >> kb8tq at n1k.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You can do the 14 db deep modulation with a tristate gate and
> a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> pair
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> resistors.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ground the input and feed the “modulation” signal to the
> >> tristate
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> control.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2018, at 4:35 PM, paul swed < <mailto:
> >>>>>> paulswedb at gmail.com> paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From the earlier threads OOK modulation does not work for
> high
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> end
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> clocks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> like spectracoms and truetimes. Have not tried it on the
> cheapy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> clocks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> yet.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I added an external modulator. A dg419 analog switch and then
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> with a
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> few
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> resistors added DC offset and anttenuation so that the
> carrier
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> drops
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -14
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> db per the wwvb spec. The logic control is driven from the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> chronverter
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it totally works. Spectracom Netclock 2 locked up in the
> normal
> >>>>>> time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> There are far better modern single supply analog gates that
> >> will
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> work.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> did not have any.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The 60 KHz carrier is supplied by a fluke 6060 generator.
> This
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> eliminates
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> any chance of being off frequency and is not the long term
> >>>> answer.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The chronverter actually uses a dallas semiconductor clock
> chip
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> thats reasonably accurate.(dangerous to say on time-nuts) So
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that even if
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> not add the GPS receiver it will run quite some time
> correctly
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> after setting the time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chronverter draws 6 ma from a 5 V supply. I always like low
> >>>> power.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All in all a very nice answer to what do we do if WWVB goes
> >> away.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As mentioned it handles timezones and DST and you can change
> >> DST
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> if
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> those
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> silly politicians screw with it again.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Speculation
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The chronverter actually puts out carriers for the popular LF
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> stations
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> along with the time codes for them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Though the modulator allows quality clocks to lock I
> speculate
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the frequency from the chronverter is not tight enough. All
> of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> these
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> clocks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have very sharp crystal filters in them. 10 Hz. Plan to
> measure
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> output
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of the chronverter see what the 60 KHz is actually at. Though
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> listening
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a HP3586 receiver it appears pretty close to frequency maybe
> >> its
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> just not
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> good enough. Or the fact is OOK modulation does not work
> >> because
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> it
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> gaps
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the PLL in these clocks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Next steps
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Determine and lay to rest the OOK/need for external
> >> modulator.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Power amplifier and loopstick transmitting antenna staying
> at
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> or
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> below
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> 30uv at 30 meters.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Integrate a neo6 GPS receiver in. (Seriously easy)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Box it up.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have my eye on one of the Truetime DC468 units and the classy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> panelplex
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> display.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope this helps those of you concerned with what to do should
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WWVB go
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> away.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>
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