[time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

Fri Mar 9 06:29:54 UTC 2018

Please forgive that I am a lurker and have not contributed.

But this last thread caught my eye since I monitor the time error for the Western Grid here in the US.

Over the last year the usual variation is very much the same as in David's graph for 2017 -- i.e., +/- 30 seconds.  The power folks worldwide must all read the same journals.

There was a time, before October, 2015, that the TE here was kept to +/- 10 sec (and years before that even closer).  Maintaining tight TE, however, threatens the stability of load/source balancing.  And there are fewer and fewer synchronous clocks in use.

If anyone is interested I have data (every minute) for the last two years.

Andy Backus

Bellingham, WA

________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> on behalf of David G. McGaw <david.g.mcgaw at dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:01 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the
technical or lay person, give a reason.

David N1HAC

On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
> for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:
>
>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-2018.html&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=LwRuSvSr0HOkxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D&reserved=0
>
> This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
> cycle using NTP for reference.
>
> Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef posted.
>
> Regards,
>    Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuecker at avm.de wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
>> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
>> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
>>
>> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
>> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Detlef Schücker
>> DD4WV
>>
>> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
>>
>> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
>>
>>> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp at arcor.de>
>>> An: time-nuts at febo.com
>>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
>>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
>>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
>>>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
>>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
>>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
>>>> Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
>>> future discussions...
>>> Does that help?
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F38870750440%2Fin%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=tOoi%2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D&reserved=0
>>> album-72157662535945536/
>>>           >
>>>
>>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
>> 4Vpp.
>>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
>>> middle of the night after all.
>>> They have to catch up.
>>>
>>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
>>> weekend
>>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
>>>
>>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
>>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
>>> so I can enforce
>>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
>>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
>>>
>>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
>>> the 89441A.
>>> One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
>>> MTI-260s on
>>> my oscillator carrier board.
>>>
>>> Have a good night,
>>> Gerhard
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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