[time-nuts] More ES100 WWVB Measurements

[Wayne Holder]

While reading this thread and pondering whether to buy and fool around with
an ES100-based module from Universal Solder, I suddenly found myself
wondering if there was any advantage to using the time received from WWVB
vs just using an inexpensive GPS receiver.  The ES100  module costs about
$70, but I can get a GPS receiver, with antenna, for far less than that and
I've had no trouble receiving GPS signals indoors with most modern receiver
modules.

I suppose the low power requirements of the ES100 might be an advantage
when building battery powered clocks to mount on the wall, but it seems
like some of the newer, ultra low power GPS modules intended for use in
smart watches could also work in a battery-powered wall clock, especially
if the receiver was only powered on a few times a day to update the time.

And, finally, if GPS modules are (or will some become) a suitable
replacement for WWVB receiver modules, do we really need WWVB in the modern
age?  Perhaps there's some critical advantage to using WWVB to get the time
but, offhand, I cannot think of it.  What am I missing?

Wayne

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 4:30 PM Brooke Clarke <brooke at pacific.net> wrote:

> Hi Joseph:
>
> Thanks for the patent link.  I've added it to my WWVB phase modulation
> info at:
> https://prc68.com/I/Loop.shtml#La_Crosse_UltrAtomic
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> https://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> axioms:
> 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by
> how well you understand how it works.
> 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 12:00:02 -0500, time-nuts-request at lists.febo.com
> > wrote:
> >
> >>   time-nuts Digest, Vol 173, Issue 44
> >> Message: 7
> >> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 04:04:22 -0800
> >> From: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com>
> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> >>      <time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] More ES100 WWVB Measurements
> >> Message-ID: <96BB388753294278A9CDE96C1EA7D9AE at pc52>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="UTF-8"
> >>
> >> Hi Graham,
> >>
> >> That's very nice work. And you have uncovered several unusual effects
> >> in the ES100. Bugs? Features? If we time nuts keep up the good work
> >> to evaluate this chip, we are likely at some point to get an
> >> informative response from the guys who designed it. They read
> >> time-nuts.
> > I didn't see this mentioned, but I think I have found the relevant US
> > patent application: US20130051184A1, Real-time clock integrated circuit
> > with time code receiver, method of operation thereof and devices
> > incorporating the same, Oren Eliezer et al, Oren Eliezer et al, filed
> > 2013-02-28.
> >
> > .<https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130051184>
> >
> > Found this by chasing stuff from the EverSet website:
> > .<
> http://everset-tech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ReceiverRadioClocks.pdf
> >.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
> >
> >
> >> So now both you and Tim have observed the off-by-one-second (or
> >> off-by-N-seconds) effect in the ES100. I wonder if this explains why
> >> some of my ES100-based La Crosse 1235UA Ultratomic wall clocks are
> >> off by a second sometimes.
> >>
> >> My main question: in your "Time Plot.PNG" plot, what is the cause of
> >> the sawtooth pattern? The points are almost all on a clear negative
> >> slope, though bounded by roughly +/- 75ms. Looking on the far left, I
> >> see a time drift of +50 ms to -25 ms over an hour, which is
> >> equivalent to a -20 ppm frequency offset; about -2 seconds/day.
> >>
> >> Do you think this is due to the 16 MHz onboard xtal? If so, how about
> >> changing the temperature of the eval board by a lot (say, several
> >> tens of degrees) for an extended time (say, 4 hours) and see if the
> >> sawtooth slope changes convincingly.
> >>
> >> Also, just to be sure, can you put a known independent timing signal
> >> (e.g., GPS/1PPS) into your complex BeagleBone Black / Debian 9.4 /
> >> ntpd time server / Python 3 / Excel stack to establish the validity
> >> of your measurement methodology? Very likely you did it right, but I
> >> always cringe when I hear "Linux" or "NTP" and "precise time" in the
> >> same sentence. Yes, sorry, forgive me; I grew up in the "trust, but
> >> verify" generation [1]. It applies pretty well to metrology also ;-)
> >>
> >> /tvb
> >>
> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify
> >>
> >>
> >> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 173, Issue 44
> >> ******************************************
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>