[time-nuts] eLORAN will be on the air GRI 99600

Fri Aug 7 01:51:46 UTC 2020

The GNSS spectrum poster is good for that it's current.  Attached.

Bill

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 6:35 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Aug 6, 2020, at 7:28 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> lists at packetflux.com> wrote:
> >
> > If you look at generally-available GNSS PNT solutions, you'll find a few
> > failure modes:
> >
> > 1) Loss of a satellite (or two).   This is why the constellations have
> more
> > satellites than is strictly necessary, so not a big deal.
> >
> > 2) Loss of control/failure in the control system/constellation wide
> > software failure, aka the recent Galileo failure.   This is why you have
> > multiple GNSS constellations.
> >
> > 3) Ground based interference (jamming, spoofing), etc.    This is why you
> > need a terrestrial backup, which doesn't really exist.
> >
> > For timing, I wouldn't be opposed to someone flying (or adding a payload
> > to) a couple of geostationary satellites which live in a separate band
> from
> > GNSS.  It would be interesting to be able to put up a small satellite
> dish
> > and get a highly reliable and hard to interfere with timing alternative
> to
> > GNSS.    I know there are two way time transfer options out there, I'm
> more
> > thinking basically a fixed-location cesium clock in the sky.
>
> Right now GNSS systems run in somewhere between 3 and 5 “bands” depending
> on how you count them. Various chunks of spectrum between 1 and 2 GHz get
> used by this or that system.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> >
> > But, a good quality terrestrial option would be useful too.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:40 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >>> On Aug 6, 2020, at 4:40 PM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 8/6/20 9:17 AM, Taka Kamiya via time-nuts wrote:
> >>>> Someone in this thread mentioned "at least 2 satellite time and
> >> frequency solutions" exists already.  I only know of GPS (GNSS)
> >> constellations.  What's the other?
> >>>
> >>> Transit?
> >>>
> >>> I don't believe they are still operational, though.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I wonder if one might be able to pick up time/frequency from a
> >> commercial TV broadcast transponder.  The transponders on the satellite
> are
> >> typically bent pipes (for C-band anyway), I would assume that the
> uplinks
> >> may or may not have stability comparable to terrestrial broadcast.
> >>>
> >>> One problem is, of course, that the satellites aren't in a stable
> >> location (at least on a "meters" scale) - but one could certainly do
> >> "common view" kinds of time transfer.
> >>
> >> Another couple of “up in the air” question:
> >>
> >> Some of the systems transmit “stand alone” signals in each of two or
> three
> >> different bands. Does each
> >> band count as a separate time source?
> >>
> >> If you know your location already, each sat in these systems can be a
> time
> >> source all by it’s self. Do they
> >> each count?
> >>
> >> I guess is depends a lot on just how you look at redundancy ….
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------
> >>>> (Mr.) Taka Kamiya
> >>>> KB4EMF / ex JF2DKG
> >>>>      On Thursday, August 6, 2020, 12:01:27 PM EDT, paul swed <
> >> paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>   Magnus
> >>>> Its honestly by luck that I know anything. From the bits I have read
> >> Europe
> >>>> seems far closer to eLORAN then we are. Perhaps 6 months ago the US
> >>>> performed a series of tests 2 eLoran solutions and something like 6 or
> >> more
> >>>> satellite solutions. I know the old Iridium satellites were in the
> tests
> >>>> and some other LEO satellites.
> >>>> But thats about it.
> >>>> What we need is a cheap SDR LORAN C sniffer. Low power runs 24 X 7 and
> >>>> turns a LED on if the stations active.
> >>>> Oh well another project in the someday pile.
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Paul
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:42 AM Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.se>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> Hi Paul,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I only ask as you seem to track this thing the best here on
> time-nuts,
> >>>>> as far as I have seen, such that it is your emails that keeps me best
> >> up
> >>>>> to date with the progress.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> Magnus
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 2020-08-05 19:21, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>>> Hi Magnus been a while since have emailed.
> >>>>>> Its one site that was a test transmitter. Its in New Jersey, USA.
> >>>>>> The goal of the testing I believe is to establish the viability of
> an
> >>>>>> alternate PNT reference to GPS. Additionally the ability to
> >> communicate
> >>>>>> some level of message broadcast. This should be identical to
> >> proposals I
> >>>>>> have heard of in Europe.
> >>>>>> But I have no direct relationship to any of this. Like you, a very
> >>>>>> interested observer and hope that eLORAN wins the battle.
> >>>>>> Unfortunately there are many alternate proposals such as using other
> >>>>>> satellites. Hmmm if I wanted to advance my career in the Air Force
> or
> >>>>> Space
> >>>>>> Force (Yes thats actually real now).
> >>>>>> Would I select the lowly reliable as heck eLORAN at sub $100 M/year
> to
> >>>>>> operate. Or the glorious space based proposals in $B region. Never
> >> mind
> >>>>>> that at least 3 countries now have demonstrated killer satellites.
> >>>>>> Sorry for that editorial.
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 11:04 AM Magnus Danielson <
> magnus at rubidium.se>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Do you know that they would do test with two actual transmitter
> >> sites?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> Magnus
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 2020-08-05 16:00, paul swed wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Hello to fellow time nuts.
> >>>>>>>> Warm up those old Austrons. eLORAN out of New Jersey has been on
> the
> >>>>> air
> >>>>>>>> intermittently prior to a test run next week. Due to the storm
> they
> >>>>> have
> >>>>>>>> lost power and should have it back today or tomorrow.
> >>>>>>>> The intention will be on the air operation till the 20th. That's a
> >> long
> >>>>>>>> run. Nice.
> >>>>>>>> Seems the Austron 2100s can be had for reasonable money these days
> >>>>> also.
> >>>>>>>> Enjoy.
> >>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > --
> > - Forrest
> > _______________________________________________
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