[time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

John I was looking for a lot of things around BPSK and SDR and more.
Had not hit this repository yet. But it has the piles of functions that
would be useful. I noted it had a I & Q oscillator. So maybe the way this
all works is you grab these functions and line them up. In looking at the
wwvb SDR for AM mentioned here by Chris thats what I had started to
understand.
Really slowly getting the barest grasp on what a project might look like.
With respect to the wwvb AM SDR receiver it does not look like any of the
code would be used for solving the BPSK problem. That is not throwing
stones by the way. It did nicely prove that a signal could come in and be
processed through numbers of steps. It does work.
My next step is to keep learning and then start to tinker with some of the
modules in this library or even simpler the audio library for the pjrc
shield. Audio in digitise and then back out. Much like the super simple
arduino blinky program you have to start someplace.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 7:55 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
john at westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> The code that has been previously discussed in this thread is posted here,
> in case some of you didn't know and could be wondering about it:
>
> https://github.com/chipaudette/OpenAudio_ArduinoLibrary
>
> It's for the Teensy boards and WWV(B/H) SDR.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:27 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> john at westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >
> > FYI:  Teensy NTP server found here:
> > https://github.com/ddrown/teensy-ntp
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 1:16 PM paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE. Worked
> >> right off the bat.
> >> The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I have
> all
> >> of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0 is
> >> slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
> >> documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to have
> an
> >> effect in the actual program.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> john at westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >> >
> >> > Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually
> pretty
> >> > good:
> >> >
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
> >> >
> >> > 73's,
> >> > John
> >> > AJ6BC
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > john at westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hello Time Nuts,
> >> > >
> >> > > Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk
> software
> >> is
> >> > > working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
> >> > >
> >> > > I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as far
> >> as
> >> > > 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
> >> > > The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
> >> > > information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I
> think
> >> the
> >> > > easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
> >> > >
> >> > > It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.
> >> Also,
> >> > > Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
> >> > >
> >> > > 73's,
> >> > > John
> >> > > AJ6BC
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time
> >> signal
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> that correct?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard <chris at elfpen.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR
> >> > programming,
> >> > >> > would like to learn more.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
> >> > >> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
> >> > >> > to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other
> >> > places.
> >> > >> > And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Chris
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >> > >> > > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
> >> > >> > > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to
> be
> >> a
> >> > I&Q
> >> > >> > > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz.
> >> Its
> >> > >> > > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or
> 0.
> >> No
> >> > >> > matter
> >> > >> > > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I&Q
> >> > >> approach)
> >> > >> > > Regards
> >> > >> > > Paul
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:47 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > >> > > john at westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > >> Paul,
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> Sure - even on my OpenHPSDR system using my vertical antenna -
> >> I am
> >> > >> > almost
> >> > >> > >> able to decode WWVB (reliably) using the clock
> >> > >> > >> program from:
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> http://f6cte.free.fr/index_anglais.htm
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> with no changes whatsoever.  If I 'fix' the antenna - I'm sure
> >> > it'll
> >> > >> > work
> >> > >> > >> more reliably.
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> Teensy is Arduino compatible - pretty sure you can use the
> >> > tools/libs
> >> > >> > >> fairly easily from Arduino - I don't have a Teensy (yet) but I
> >> will
> >> > >> > >> probably
> >> > >> > >> get a kit like what's outlined in Chris's post and also here
> for
> >> > the
> >> > >> > people
> >> > >> > >> that may not be in the US:
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77 (referenced by Chris in
> >> his
> >> > >> > post).
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> that describes the antenna circuit in more detail.
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> 73's,
> >> > >> > >> John
> >> > >> > >> AJ6BC
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:20 PM paul swed <
> paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >>> John
> >> > >> > >>> I would simply use any number of receivers and grab 60 KHz
> out
> >> of
> >> > >> one
> >> > >> > or
> >> > >> > >>> could use the IF at 10 KHz or 1 KHz. But more fun to use 60
> >> KHz.
> >> > The
> >> > >> > cost
> >> > >> > >>> on the teensy components is very reasonable.
> >> > >> > >>> Regards
> >> > >> > >>> Paul
> >> > >> > >>>
> >> > >> > >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:44 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > >> > >>> john at westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > >>>
> >> > >> > >>>> Hello Time Nuts,
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>> Chris - maybe you can share that if that's something you can
> >> > share
> >> > >> > >> right
> >> > >> > >>>> now.
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>> Jim and Paul,
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>> Like Chris pointed out - on that audio board in the design
> >> he's
> >> > >> worked
> >> > >> > >>> on -
> >> > >> > >>>> the Line In has L and R channels - the input resistance is
> >> higher
> >> > >> than
> >> > >> > >>> for
> >> > >> > >>>> the mic input -
> >> > >> > >>>> but I suppose it's possible to try a BPSK implementation
> using
> >> > >> that as
> >> > >> > >> a
> >> > >> > >>>> starting point.  There's no separate gain stage for the Line
> >> In
> >> > >> inputs
> >> > >> > >>> like
> >> > >> > >>>> for the mic - but
> >> > >> > >>>> it could work - a small preamp that works with the input
> >> > impedance
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> > >> the
> >> > >> > >>>> Line In circuitry may be necessary to get a good input
> signal
> >> -
> >> > but
> >> > >> > >> that
> >> > >> > >>>> shouldn't be too hard
> >> > >> > >>>> to add.  Also - do the internals of that chip - the
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/SGTL5000.pdf
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>> really allow the L/R Line In channels to be treated
> >> > >> independently?  If
> >> > >> > >>> so,
> >> > >> > >>>> it should be good to go at least for experimentation.
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>> 73's,
> >> > >> > >>>> John
> >> > >> > >>>> AJ6BC
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>
> >> > >> > >>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:07 PM Chris Howard <
> >> chris at elfpen.com>
> >> > >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> > >>>>> I received a good pointer about doing the BPSK
> implementation
> >> > >> > >>>>> but have just not gotten it done.
> >> > >> > >>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>> Chris Howard
> >> > >> > >>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>> On 10/12/20 11:02 AM, jimlux wrote:
> >> > >> > >>>>>> On 10/12/20 7:40 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't
> help
> >> > wwvb
> >> > >> > >> BPSK
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> its a
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way
> >> to
> >> > get
> >> > >> > >>> your
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> feet
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> wet. Hmmm is there a parts order soon? :-)
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> Regards
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> Paul
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >> > >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>> And the teensy has plenty of space and speed to implement
> a
> >> PLL
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> > >>>>>> doing BPSK demodulation.
> >> > >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:33 AM Bob kb8tq <
> kb8tq at n1k.org>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> Hi
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say
> >> 2 X
> >> > to
> >> > >> > >> 5X
> >> > >> > >>> ).
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the
> >> > >> length.
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> ( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …).
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it
> >> done?”.
> >> > At
> >> > >> > >>> least
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since
> >> all
> >> > >> > >> these
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> antennas
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail
> race.
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> Bob
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland,
> P.E. <
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>> john at westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Paul,
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a
> >> > >> good/great
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> starting
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> point?
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> Seems like that approach could be extended.
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> 73's,
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> John
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>> AJ6BC
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
> >> > >> > >>>>>>>>>
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