[time-nuts] AN/URQ-13 FE-15a oscillator question

[paul swed]

Several answers.
At temperature it can be adjusted to 5,000,000.0XX XX using just the coarse
adjustment. The Xs are because it has not really been on long enough to
seriously stabilize. Its been off/cold for easily bet 20-30 years.
The urq family of references were intended for shipboard use generally. As
mentioned in the 1970s the urq10 was in shirt sleeve environments on every
ship I was on and visited. Aircraft carriers to Oilers.
This unit has an extremely limited amount of information and as mentioned
this unit is absolutely some alpha version pre-release. I have guessed at
power supplies and Corby started all this with a URQ23 question. I started
looking at the urq23 manual and used that power supply design. +/- 15V 150
ma cold 30 40 ma hot.
OK back to this the 110 degrees seemed really too cool to me and thats
the question I asked. Was there such a thing as a crystal oven at 110
degrees.
There are to meter readings on the test meter. On FE units there is a
center red band. Assuming position 6 is outer oven its in the center red.
Position 7 assuming inner is at 9-11 off scale. When warming up it goes
through the center and you can actually see servo type behavior until its
off scale.
So that leads me to believe there is an issue. Granted nothing is labeled.
Just 1-9 on the switch.
The URQ13 could be a nice unit if working. Nothing like todays Rbs, Cs, and
GPSDOs. But you just never know when you will need a military class 1980s
reference. Chuckle. I always liked the URQ10s when I was in the service.
The ships all had 3 of them. But given they were all in exactly the same
location that seems like a poor consideration these days.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Feb 13, 2021 at 9:49 AM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> What frequency is it putting out?
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 12, 2021, at 9:45 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I see a glass tape on the inner oven with writing "40.0". Thats it.
> > Assuming C its a long way off.The flask is fine the ovens are heating to
> > 110F. Both of them. So somethings wrong. Interesting as I peel something
> > like caulking off the outer board I see what looks like a opamp. But its
> a
> > FE house number. The top of the can has NSC. The old national
> semiconductor
> > label. Could be a LM709 class opamp.
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 9:12 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> If you are reading something below 60C on a dewar flask outer oven …. it
> >> is borken….. very broken.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 7:25 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The temps I am reading are with a K thermocouple so pretty accurate. I
> >> had
> >>> simply slid the thermocouple into the flask on the outer edge of the
> >>> ovens.The assembly is out of the flask now and both inner and outer are
> >>> heating. Will see what they do. Both seem to be heating at about the
> same
> >>> rate. So the great news is the oven windings are not bad. I do see a
> very
> >>> significant voltage difference on two leads that I might guess matter.
> >> But
> >>> still decoding and reverse engineering everything.
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 5:20 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> According to table 1-2 in:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq-eimb.pdf <
> >>>> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq-eimb.pdf>
> >>>>
> >>>> The URQ-9 and URQ-10 both were rated for 0 to 50C.
> >>>>
> >>>> Per:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq23-MIL-T-28816.pdf <
> >>>> http://www.navy-radio.com/freq/urq23-MIL-T-28816.pdf>
> >>>>
> >>>> The URQ-23 was rated for 0 to 50C
> >>>>
> >>>> I’d say it’s a pretty likely that the URQ-13 was rated to operate over
> >>>> 0 to 50C. It went into the same locations and did the same thing as
> the
> >>>> other devices.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 1:07 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well there is no doubt someone has been deep into this unit. Hint
> >> missing
> >>>>> screws internally.
> >>>>> But appears both heater windings are ok.
> >>>>> So inner and outer oven has a new meaning. I typically understood
> this
> >> to
> >>>>> be one oven in another oven. Think the HP CS units of old. The same
> in
> >>>>> other places HP3801.
> >>>>> But in the URQ13 it means there is a long tube. The Dewar flask. The
> >>>> inner
> >>>>> is deep into the flask and the outer is close to the opening. Two
> >>>>> completely separate heaters. Under the outer heater I will guess is
> the
> >>>>> actual oscillator for the 5 MHz. Further out from the outer heater
> are
> >>>> the
> >>>>> offset variable caps thermistor for the outer oven a pot and IC.
> >>>>> Several screws hold this outer heater on and considering the risk of
> >>>> taking
> >>>>> out the remainders to look and draw a schematic.
> >>>>> Regards
> >>>>> Paul
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:28 AM paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes Bob they could get hot. But the radio rooms I have been in circa
> >>>> 1970s
> >>>>>> were all air conditioned from destroyers to aircraft carriers. Shirt
> >>>>>> sleeve. The best place to actually be when we were down by the
> equator
> >>>> was
> >>>>>> the radio room, ET shop, CIC and radar and just maybe the Captain's
> >>>>>> stateroom. But if you were actually there you might still be
> sweating.
> >>>>>> Chuckle.
> >>>>>> This conversation has given me some good insights. Later today I
> will
> >>>>>> disable the outer oven. Just curious to see what possible temps
> might
> >>>> show
> >>>>>> up. Is the inner oven simply reading outer oven leakage. Is there a
> >>>> lead I
> >>>>>> can measure the current of the inner oven....
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 11:18 AM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If it’s 105F “outdoors” that’s 40C. Military gear back in the days
> of
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> URQ10
> >>>>>>> did not live in air conditioned enclosures. It did get deployed to
> >>>> places
> >>>>>>> with
> >>>>>>> temperatures at or above that level.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If it’s 40C outdoors, by the time you get to a pile of electronics
> >> gear
> >>>>>>> *indoors*,
> >>>>>>> a >10C rise is pretty likely. That drives a very common 50C “upper
> >> end”
> >>>>>>> temperature
> >>>>>>> on ground gear in relatively benign installations.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This does not just apply to military gear. If you look through test
> >>>>>>> equipment
> >>>>>>> catalogs, a lot of test gear also has the same sort of 50 to 60C
> >> upper
> >>>>>>> end spec.
> >>>>>>> The 5065A has a spec of 0 to 50C. The 5061A has the same spec. Both
> >>>>>>> targeted
> >>>>>>> pretty “normal” environments …. ( = they never get below freezing
> …)
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>> date
> >>>>>>> to the “era” of the URQ10.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In this era of HVAC everywhere, the 5071A has a temp range of 0 to
> >> 55C.
> >>>>>>> If
> >>>>>>> anything, this would suggest that things still can get pretty hot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 10:29 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>> OK there is the math. and that all starts to line up.
> >>>>>>>> So most likely for other URQ units there will be an ambient max in
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> spec's. At least on the URQ10 in real life even in the hot tropics
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> radio room was shirt sleeve temps.
> >>>>>>>> But the question asked was 110 F correct as measured on the
> outside
> >> of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> outer oven against the dewar flask correct. It isn't. The darn
> thing
> >>>> is
> >>>>>>>> reasonably stable though.
> >>>>>>>> Since the front panel test switch is not labeled I speculate that
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> position for the outer oven is in the normal range. The next
> switch
> >>>>>>>> position most likely is inner and is not in the correct position.
> It
> >>>>>>> slowly
> >>>>>>>> moves to the high side.
> >>>>>>>> No real details on anything and a total guess.
> >>>>>>>> Really appreciate the thoughts.
> >>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:18 AM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Indeed the outer oven (as a minimum) needs to be 5 to 10 C above
> >>>>>>>>> the maximum ambient. If it’s not it goes out of regulation (runs
> >>>> away)
> >>>>>>>>> and you loose any benefit from it. ( = it now works against you
> ).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The inner oven as a minimum needs to be 5 to 10 C above the outer
> >>>>>>>>> oven. Again if it is lower, you can / will get into the same
> >> runaway
> >>>>>>>>> issue.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Those offsets are dependent on the way things are insulated. If
> you
> >>>> are
> >>>>>>>>> using a dewar flask, 5C is probably not going to work for you.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Your inner oven *also* is impacted by the turn temperature on the
> >>>>>>> crystal
> >>>>>>>>> being used. This *might* have a 20C range. That would put the
> >> maximum
> >>>>>>>>> inner oven temperature at 10 + 10 + 20 = 40C above the maximum
> >>>> ambient.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Needless to say, if the max ambient is 85C, this will get the
> inner
> >>>>>>> oven
> >>>>>>>>> components up pretty hot. That’s not a real good idea. Derating
> the
> >>>>>>> heater
> >>>>>>>>> is pretty easy, derating *everything* in there is much more
> >> complex.
> >>>>>>> You
> >>>>>>>>> do not often see 85C upper end double ovens ….
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> One *could* also ask: “is all this worth it?”. List members
> *have*
> >>>>>>> written
> >>>>>>>>> papers addressing that point :)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 10:05 PM, Paul Alfille <
> >> paul.alfille at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Shouldn't the outer oven be cooler than the inner oven except
> >> during
> >>>>>>>>>> warmup? I would think the inner electronics would be generating
> >>>> heat.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Paul Alfille K1PHA
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 9:30 PM paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> 50C is what I have sort of seen over the years. Just wondered
> >> could
> >>>>>>>>> there
> >>>>>>>>>>> have been a lower temp version. That made no sense. But then
> this
> >>>>>>> beast
> >>>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>>>>> never made a lot of sense. The $20 mystery from Frequency
> >>>>>>> Electronics.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Bob
> >>>>>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 8:08 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Even for an outer oven, anything below 60C / 140F would be low
> >>>>>>> enough
> >>>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> run into significant problems. On a mil device, an upper end
> >>>>>>>>> temperature
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the equipment likely would be over 70C. The outer oven would
> >> need
> >>>>>>> to be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 5 to 10C above that.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:55 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> OK I have had several responses and 110F is low as I
> expected.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Wonder if I am being faked out? Perhaps by an inner oven and
> I
> >> am
> >>>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> reading the outside of the outer oven. The Older URQ10 and
> >> newer
> >>>>>>> URQ23
> >>>>>>>>>>> do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> have 2 ovens. The meter switch for test is only labeled 1-9.
> no
> >>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>>>>> clues
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the function. I noticed 2 positions change with warm up.
> >> Sort
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> supports the 2 oven theory.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Really do not want to take what might be the outer oven off
> to
> >>>> put
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> probe in.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 5:32 PM Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 110 F makes very little sense unless you are in a very cold
> >>>>>>> climate.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For military gear (or any gear for that matter) 43C on the
> >> oven
> >>>>>>> just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t work.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 110 C would make sense in a very high temperature
> environment.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (think of 85C upper end ….).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2021, at 2:18 PM, paul swed <
> paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello to the group.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have had a AN/URQ-13 or FE-15a oven oscillator for years.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Its never worked correctly and in reality some early alpha
> >>>> build.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (Funny
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that its labeled 15a)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking online there is no documentation that I have been
> >> able
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> find
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the years.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However in another discussion on a AN/URQ-23 that does
> have a
> >>>>>>> manual
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schematics I realized my guesses on power could be totally
> >>>> wrong.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voltages like the URQ23 the URQ13 actually behaves fairly
> >>>> well. I
> >>>>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lucky
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that I didn't destroy something with my original guess.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That said what I find odd is the internal crystal oven runs
> >> at
> >>>>>>>>>>> exactly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 110
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> degrees. Its repeatably warms to that level with a range of
> >>>>>>> supply
> >>>>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> +/-
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12-15V.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does 110 degrees F make any sense at all?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
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