[time-nuts] Re: 5061A HV Supply, et al. {External}

[paul swed]

Jim you can see what I did to bench test one. As you say be very careful.
It can be wimpy because its moving atoms and molecules to the getter that
holds the crud.
Kind of odd the HV connector is open and the Ion pump meter is still
pegged. Makes no sense to me. Is the needle just stuck?? Do some hunting on
time-nuts the a18 module has been discussed. I believe the current is
measured off of the output HV resistor. On the bottom end to ground.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 1:28 PM Jim Muehlberg via time-nuts <
time-nuts at lists.febo.com> wrote:

> OK, great info!  I am very nervous around HV, but now I understand that
> he A18 can't even handle the 10M input on the expensive Keitlhy DMM I
> foolishly connected.
>
> Even with the high tension lead disconnected and well away from metal,
> the ion pump current is still pegged.
>
> So, despite that, I built a divider which turned out to be 64.2MOhm.
> Across the 103K at the bottom I got 1.2V giving about 12 uA, so the
> supply is only delivering about 800 volts.  Is it really this wimpy?  if
> it normally delivers about 10uA, that suggests a 350MOhm Load.  So, I
> put in another few resistors and brought the total to ~172.3M, yielding
> 0.472 across the 103K giving around 785V in.
>
> I even went so far as to clean the vicinity of the A18 output.  Since my
> hearing is not wonderful, I could not detect any corona discharge or
> buzzing or whatever it's should sound like.
>
> I suppose the final nail in the A18 coffin will be removing it and bench
> testing.  (BTW, the input voltage is good)
>
> Thanks for all the help.
>
> On 2022-11-14 9:35 PM, paul swed via time-nuts wrote:
> > Here is a pix of a unit I was testing.
> > [image: DSC04636.JPG]
> >
> > The current meter is in the lower leg of the return. You can see the high
> > voltage probe on the right. I recall its 68 M and feeds a fluke DVM. The
> > amp meter is measuring the current that the probe is consuming. The other
> > connections are ground and +18.7V.
> > The precision voltage divider in the background was not used.
> > Testing the supply like this is fairly easy and just look at the
> schematics
> > to understand how to hook everything up.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 9:27 PM paul swed<paulswedb at gmail.com>  wrote:
> >
> >> Jim
> >> OK I thought the thread said the meter is pegged and yes at turn on the
> >> ion pump 3500 V is always on. The switching and protection I am speaking
> >> about is for the other circuits. They will not start if the pump
> current is
> >> to high. The ION pump sends a signal that inhibits their start. A 1M R
> is
> >> far too low of a resistance its loading the supply down. Try something
> like
> >> 40-60 Meg. Maybe a string of 10 M with a 100k R at the bottom. Measure
> the
> >> V across the 100K. In normal operation the 3500 V will be drawing
> 4-14ua if
> >> the tubes reasonably pumped down.
> >> So thinking about this. There is a twist HV connector on the chassis
> that
> >> the 3500 V goes through. I am reluctant to say this but if that were off
> >> and far away from anything to arc to and the ion pump meter went to
> close
> >> to zero then you would know the supply is most likely working and you
> have
> >> a very dirty tube. I just do not like the thought of a 3500 V plug
> floating
> >> free.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 7:51 PM Jim Muehlberg via time-nuts <
> >> time-nuts at lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Paul,
> >>>
> >>> My understanding is that the 3500 V is on as soon as power is applied.
> >>> Disconnected, I get 750V at the HV lead.  I first connected a 1M Ohm
> >>> resistor divider because I don't really have HV measuring stuff (10K to
> >>> 1) and it read 350 V.  Indeed the meter is pegged, but I suspect that
> is
> >>> due to some internal fault in the A18 as well.  So unless there is some
> >>> turn on signal to the 3500 V supply, I suspect it is bad.  This whole
> >>> thing may be a basket case.  No one knows the history.
> >>>
> >>> I'm also missing the divider assembly, so that may put the brakes on
> the
> >>> whole project, but I'll worry about that once I have attempted to pump
> >>> down.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the advice!
> >>>
> >>> Jim
> >>>
> >>> On 11/14/2022 3:25 PM, paul swed via time-nuts wrote:
> >>>> Jim
> >>>> I may be missing something here. Your suggesting the 3500 V ion pump
> >>> supply
> >>>> is bad.
> >>>> But I believe the ion pump meter is pegged from an earlier post. If
> true
> >>>> then the 3500 V is fine. If the tubes dirty and drawing too much
> current
> >>>> there is a lockout circuit on a15 that will not allow the CS oven and
> >>> 2500
> >>>> V to come up until the ion pump is below about 15-20ua on the meter.
> It
> >>>> senses the current being drawn by the 3500 HV. Enters a15 on pin 1 and
> >>>> inhibits the rest of the system.
> >>>> If my thoughts are correct then you need to pump down the tube as
> Rodger
> >>>> says with a 3500 V supply and as I suggested 300 ua is way more than
> >>>> enough. There is a chance the tube may work in a relative quality
> sense.
> >>>> That is it could lock but there are so few Cs that the output of the
> >>> system
> >>>> is noisy.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Paul
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 3:00 PM Jim Muehlberg via time-nuts <
> >>>> time-nuts at lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Rodger,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the encouragement!  I'm trying not to spend too much
> effort
> >>>>> on this - sort of a distraction from real work.  One would think that
> >>>>> NRAO would have a HV power supply lying around somewhere, but
> astronomy
> >>>>> has gone solid state now for decades!  We have a grad student trying
> to
> >>>>> nurse along another 5061 and we'd like to have a pair. I guess I'll
> >>>>> slice open the A18 module and see what makes it tick.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks again,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 11/10/2022 9:11 AM, Rodger via time-nuts wrote:
> >>>>>> Hey Jim,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I got a 5061a a couple years ago with high ION pump current.  In my
> >>> case
> >>>>> the 3500 volts was there but the tube was not pumping down, even
> after
> >>>>> being on for weeks.  I found a Terranova 741 Ion pump power supply on
> >>> eBay
> >>>>> for under $100.  It was listed as not working but worked AOK when I
> got
> >>>>> it.  It's a nice supply with variable output voltage, current
> limiting,
> >>>>> safety interlocks, etc.  I hooked it up to the tube and let it run
> for
> >>> a
> >>>>> few weeks.  Tube pumped down successfully and is working AOK now.  My
> >>> guess
> >>>>> is that my A18 wasn't capable of supplying the current needed to pump
> >>> down
> >>>>> the tube but the external power supply was.
> >>>>>> Note: I proceeded very carefully with the external supply, letting
> it
> >>>>> run for days at lower voltages and gradually working up to 3500.
> >>> Also, I
> >>>>> kept the current limit set as low as it would go.  Anyway, it worked
> >>> for
> >>>>> me.  Good luck with yours.
> >>>>>> Rodger
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Jim Muehlberg via time-nuts<time-nuts at lists.febo.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2022 11:07 AM
> >>>>>> To:time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> >>>>>> Cc: Jim Muehlberg<jmuehlbe at nrao.edu>
> >>>>>> Subject: [time-nuts] 5061A HV Supply, et al.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I've recently come into possession of a 5061A.  It is claimed that
> the
> >>>>> tube is exhausted, but I'm unwilling to scrap it (horrors!) yet.  I'm
> >>> not
> >>>>> well equipped for HV measurements, but it appears the +3500 V supply
> >>> is not
> >>>>> working.  So, I'm hoping the tube just needs to be pumped since it
> >>> hasn't
> >>>>> been powered for years.  Also missing the A3 assembly, but I'll worry
> >>> about
> >>>>> that later...
> >>>>>> Anyone willing to part with their A18 or loan it to me?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jim Muehlberg
> >>>>> Senior Engineer
> >>>>>
> >>>>> National Radio Astronomy Observatory
> >>>>> ngVLA Local Oscillator Lead
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1180 Boxwood Estates Rd B-111
> >>>>> Charlottesville, VA 22903-4602
> >>>>> P 434.296.0270
> >>>>> F 434.296.0324
> >>>>> www.cv.nrao.edu/~jmuehlbe
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> Jim Muehlberg
> >>> Senior Engineer
> >>>
> >>> National Radio Astronomy Observatory
> >>> ngVLA Local Oscillator Lead
> >>>
> >>> 1180 Boxwood Estates Rd B-111
> >>> Charlottesville, VA 22903-4602
> >>> P 434.296.0270
> >>> F 434.296.0324
> >>> www.cv.nrao.edu/~jmuehlbe
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list --time-nuts at lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email totime-nuts-leave at lists.febo.com
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> --
>
> Jim Muehlberg
> Senior Engineer
>
> National Radio Astronomy Observatory
> ngVLA Local Oscillator Lead
>
> 1180 Boxwood Estates Rd B-111
> Charlottesville, VA 22903-4602
> P 434.296.0270
> C 434.422.2017
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-leave at lists.febo.com